One for the Jet Provost experts

[bluetail]

Can anyone identify the Transmitter Receiver Control Unit (below the yellow arrow) from the JP Mk3.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s174/bluetail228/Jet%20Provost%20Radio%20Box_zpsqa4gviv1.jpg (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/bluetail228/media/Jet%20Provost%20Radio%20Box_zpsqa4gviv1.jpg.html)

Ta

[Royalistflyer]

Looks more like Mk 4 - an EKCO isn't it?

[Madbob]

It's not from a Mk 3A, or 5A/5B so I would say it is from a 1960's vintage JP, either a Mk3 or a Mk 4, but if the latter not a Shawbury (Marshalls) one.


The radio is definitely not an ARC 52 or PTR 175.


Sorry I can't help more.


MB

[Yellow Sun]

Rebecca - DME
It also had a limited homing capability.
YS

[Wander00]

YS - moi aussi - DME gets my vote

[CoffmanStarter]

See BEagle's Post #21 here ...

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/410843-dme-gauges-history-2.html

[Royalistflyer]

Somewhere buried amongst stuff I have original typewritten, hand notated test pilot's notes for the JP

[bluetail]

Thanks everyone, its fitted to this XS176

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s174/bluetail228/JET%20PROVOST%20T.4%208514M%20INV%2011-11-12_zpsmczw8apl.jpg (http://s152.photobucket.com/user/bluetail228/media/JET%20PROVOST%20T.4%208514M%20INV%2011-11-12_zpsmczw8apl.jpg.html)

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Rebecca Eureka i seem to recall was the full name, with not many stations eqipped to provide a service. They were flagged in the red book as 'D4' or 'C6' sort of pairing to dial up.

i also seem to recall it never worked, or unlocked if you flew a wide circuit. The associated read out is the dial to the right of it, calibrated up to 20 nm it seems, with the needle at the bottom to chase for homing - now that never worked!

...makes you fond of tacan.

wets

[Wetstart Dryrun]

sorry, addled brain. I think (without a logbook rummage) XS""" would be a JP Mk4 - XM is Mk3, XW Mk5....? ...maybe.

wets

[BOING]

You can always tell a Mk 4 because the airscoops over the engine bay are bigger than those of the Mk 3. Look at the photo and --- oops, never mind.

[Yozzer]

XS176 ~ JP T4

PAC/W/22162
20/09/1963
First Flew. B03/10/1963
Awaiting Collection
03/10/1963
Delivered to 27 MU Shawbury
10/01/1964
2 FTS Syerston coded 28, later recoded 36
10/07/1968
27 MU Shawbury
18/10/1968
5 MU Kemble
01/11/1968
27 MU Shawbury
28/01/1969
3 FTS Leeming coded 47
24/11/1970
Central Air Traffic Control School, Shawbury coded O
28/02/1972
College of Air Warfare, Manby coded 18
06/12/1973
School of Refresher Flying, Leeming coded 71
25/02/1974
5 MU Kemble
26/02/1975
School of Refresher Flying, Leeming coded 71
24/02/1977
1 SoTT Halton for ground instructional use as 8514M/N
06/1993
Tendered
27/10/1993
Transported to Phoenix Aviation, Bruntingthorpe
03/11/1993
To University of Salford, Manchester
15/07/1999
To Bruntingthorpe
08/1999
Reduced to nose section and transported to Solihull
2000
To Stamford
18/06/2005
To Highland Aviation Museum, Inverness for display

[teeteringhead]

Had a knee-pad (knowing me, probably still got it somewhere) with concentric Eureka/Rebecca range circles on a one-mil map of Eastern England.

A necessary fashion accessory flying the JP4 (only Mk of JP I ever flew) from Syerston - don't think it was ever used in anger .....

Never flew that particular one, but a number of other XSs, and XPs and XRs .....

[relight9]

In it's wider environment.......XS186 today.

https://xs186.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/dscf4828.jpg

[Dominator2]

Rebecca/Eureka, The prime, and only, navigation equipment fitted to the Linton JP3/5s in 1972. Very basic but taught one how to gain skills in Air Picture. Apart from being used for all ML Nav Exercises and GH above cloud it could also be used for IMC letdowns. It was possible to perform a Self Nav QGH with reasonable accuracy. Certainly better than being stuck above cloud without a clue. At Linton I'm sure that as a Stude we were allowed down to a MDH of about 1000ft, anyone remember?
Having mastered Rebecca/Eureka approaches an NDB approach was easy!

[nipva]

Unless senility has well and truly arrived, my memory is that this was the only navaid fitted to the Mk 6 Hunters at Chivenor on 229 OCU and subsequently on the 6A Hunters at TWU Brawdy One could indeed fly a reasonably respectable instrument recovery but first of all you had to find the overhead! The FGA9 also had ADF but it was hardly at the top of the reliability pile and at Brawdy rarely worked.

With the Eureka system one of the big limitations was the paucity of ground stations.

[BEagle]

I was at the Towers in 1974 and flew the JP3/5 during training - so, as you say, Rebecca/Eureka and UHF/DF were our only navaids. But sufficient to fly ML nav and the (occasional) QGH/DME let-down, although we did quite a few in the Link D4.

Whilst waiting for a Valley course, I flew some trips in the JP5A with the absolute luxury of VOR/DME! Radials and range rings from OTR and instant knowledge of position above 8/8 - no more need for "True bearing, true bearing, true bearing" from the aerodrome whose Eureka you were using, or, if it wasn't, getting a second DF line from elsewhere. I used Finningley quite often - for 2 reasons: 1-it was on 354.0, so one click away from 243.0 on each manual ARC52 knob (as we flew with 243.0 selected as SOP, but flew on a stud rather than M); and 2-it gave a decent cross-cut angle with Cranwell. Quite a few of us would be airborne at the same time, plus lots of other Lincs and Yorks aircraft. But even though we didn't have SSR available, somehow we all survived without bumping into each other or the ground.

VOR/DME/ILS in the JP5A was so much better, but then came the Gnat with the students' best friend - offset TACAN! Lord know why they didn't include an offset box in the Hawk though. The Valley Hunters had TACAN as well, but rather more primitive than the excellent Gnat system. But at Brawdy, it was back to Rebecca/Eureka in the Hunter 6A/7, plus ADF in the FGA9 - which no-one used except for the odd bit of listening to music from broadcasting stations. One mate happened to be doing a SNEB sortie at Pembrey listening to 'Ride of the Valkyries' on Radio 3, which he said was very motivating!

After another 14 years of flying with food-powered navigation systems, going back to VDF/UDF and no SSR in the Bulldog was a bit of a culture shock above 8/8 in British West Oxfordshire! Bearings from Benson Approach and Oxford Homer in 1990 when even the Brize Flying Club aircraft were better equipped! But we did at least get VOR/DME/ILS in the Bulldog a year or two later!

However, those early days of Rebecca/Eureka and DF fixing were very useful in teaching us the art of developing a mental air picture, of that I'm sure!

[Ivan Rogov]

Excellent thread gents, it sparked my interest and a quick search found this site
Rebecca Mk8 - TR8193 (http://members.home.nl/a.k.bouwknegt/index_bestanden/TR8193.htm)
It might help others like me who have never seen it to understand the explanations better :ok:

[Wander00]

Beags - when were you at OUAS? I was on the Command Accounts Inspection Team from Brampton 86-89 and on account of the faded budgie on my jumper claimed flying stations as of right. Did 3 inspections at OUAS and flew in the Bulldog during all 3 visits - wonder if I flew with you

[BEagle]

Hmm....page 2 of the reference in Koos Bouwknegt's document http://members.home.nl/a.k.bouwknegt/index_bestanden/Diagrams/TR8193%20circuit.pdf is a cut-and-paste from a PPRuNe post of mine from 5 Apr 2010......

:rolleyes:

Wander00, I was a member of the RAF's premier UAS, both as a student from 1969-73 and as a QFI from 1990-93. Which one? ULAS, of course, not OUAS!

[Ivan Rogov]

Hi BEagle, I guess that's the beauty of the WWW, you put up some credible information and we all learn, it can be added to other information to create work like that and the world is a better place.

Unless you're suggesting that your info lessens that web sites article ;)

[Tinribs]

As I recall there was a left/right needle similar to a turn and slip but I don't see it in the photo

[spekesoftly]

The L/R needle is visible in the photo, but for a better view see page two of BEagle's link above in post #21.

[Wander00]

Sorry Beags, no insult intended. Funny I never looked at ULAS's books. Did enjoy flying the Bulldog though, especially the trip that was a mock IRT, and my ego cheered by being told I would have got a white card,

[ORAC]

Pretty sure that Leuchars was still available Still at Leuchars when I was an Ops Officer in 1985. There was a survey by HQSTC of Navaids and their utility and we asked if we could decommission it as we couldn't find anyone who used it - the answer was no, just in case there was were any civil users still about.

Makes me wonder what other old equipment is still serviced and radiating around the world "just in case".

[Audax]

'Old equipment still serviced and radiating'

That seems to fit many senior retired officers!

[ACW599]

>Wander00, I was a member of the RAF's premier UAS, both as a student from 1969-73 and as a QFI from 1990-93. Which one? ULAS, of course, not OUAS!<

A sad and regrettable misconception. Everyone knows that UWAS was, is and always will be the RAF's premier UAS.

Dare I mention the words 'Cooper Trophy'?

[Satellite_Driver]

Beags, I'm sure I recall one of the ULAS QFIs complaining that it was virtually impossible to get lost near Abingdon (thus it was too easy for us students) because the condensation plume from Didcot Power Station was so prominent, even with cloud around!

[smujsmith]

Satellite Driver

Could that QFI have been one Eric St***son ? I certainly remember him being of simialar opinion. Had the honour to act as ballast with him on several occasions, whilst serving as ground crew on University Engineering Flight at Abingdon. 77-79 was my experience of UAS service, what a great time.

Smudge :ok:

[BEagle]

Tinribs wrote: As I recall there was a left/right needle similar to a turn and slip but I don't see it in the photo

Perhaps you were thinking of this:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Beam20Indicator201a20Large_zpsl7axee3t.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/Beam20Indicator201a20Large_zpsl7axee3t.jpg.html)

It's a beam approach indicator, from about 30 years before I flew the JP! Fitted to aircraft such as the Lancaster.

[Dominator2]

BEagle, I'm sure that you were correct in your previous post No 20 where the link http://members.home.nl/a.k.bouwknegt/index_bestanden/Diagrams/TR8193%20circuit.pdf clearly shows the Left/Right needle.I seem to recall that it was only accurate out to about 20nm but good enough to get you home. At Linton we flew a number of QGH's in the Link Trainer with the help of our 2 Polish instructors. We also flew live QGH's as a means to recover to base. I suppose it very much depended on which squadron you were on or which QFI you were taught by. I was luckily on 2 Sqn at the best FTS in 1972/3, Linton on Ouse.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

...all these posts by people claiming to have successfully used rebecca/eureka makes me doubt my own memories. I am sure it was quite worthless.

...however, the thread has given me vague dreams of saying things like 'hayrake' and 'raking 15 miles for radar pick-up'.

...surely, nobody ever said that?

However, an ATC officer did say, in reply to a request for 'true bearing'

-'your bearing is 222 true, true true 222. ..25 years I've waited for that.'

wets

[BEagle]

Yes, 'Hayrake' was the brevity word for DME distance and 'Pitchfork' was relative bearing.

Although some Victor people thought that 'Hayrake 55' meant set A/A TACAN to channel 55.....:rolleyes:

I seem to recall when doing doggers-over-the-oggers at Brawdy, that someone would have been briefed to call the odd Hayrake value to the rest of the formation.

[clackline]

I can remember using Rebecca every day over 8/8 out of Rissy while trainee instructors pattered on. We used true bearings plus the odd Rebecca position line to stop bouncing off airways. Apart from Rissy, a quick 'strobe' of the Shawb Eureka station kept you in the right area. I can remember getting readings of 20-30nm. If you had a good idea of the winds aloft and kept an eye on Blogg's heading changes & speed, one's DR became pretty sharp. Did Pershore have a Eureka/Rebecca? There must have been another one somewhere. Although the bearing needle under the range indicator flopped about, I can never remember using it for a letdown although we discussed the theory in the event of radio failure. The combination of true bearings & Rebecca range readings for 50 minutes allowed one to position to the northwest of LR at about the right slot time to get a radar pick-up. This was early 70's.

[Arfur Dent]

Vaguely remember doing a 'Tacan dive' recovery IMC into Valley many moons ago. Can't recall any details of how it was actually achieved. Alzheimer's perhaps. Anyone fill in the details???...
Ta!

[Wander00]

AD - I recall a "Tacan recovery", but cannot remember the details

[BEagle]

It was the standard recovery to self-navigate to the TACAN dive arc (actually a sort of cheese wedge) at Valley, then aim for Point Alfa. I think the dive started at FL185? Then whistle down at 300 KIAS with one notch of flap and idle power. Hopefully then visual to the aerodrome, otherwise change the offset to Point Foxtrot and thence the ILS to RW 14. Much more difficult in the Hunter without an offset box though.

One or two Gnat students set the offset for the VYL TACAN, but had dialled up the wrong TACAN channel - such as the POL TACAN. Diving down to break cloud somewhere over Manchester was a bit of a shock - as it was to the Air Traffickers!

Pretty simple; it's all changed now though.

[27mm]

Not forgetting the Zero Reader widget in the Gnat, allegedly to make ILS apps easier.....

[BEagle]

We weren't introduced to the Zero Reader until after the IRT! Once it was set up it wasn't too bad, but the roll demand was a bit lazy. I was once told that it was the same device as fitted to the Britannia...:confused: Was that really so?

Keeping the little ZR bead centralised on the AI whilst scanning the ILS display was...interesting. Whilst remembering to tweak the elevation knob so that the bead's pitch demand was correct as you decelerated / configured.... But with practice, not too bad. I think it gave a fractionally lower ILS Decision Height - 250' rather than 270'?

[Dominator2]

BEagle, Your memory serves you well. Point Alpha R200/20, Turn Left OR Right to intercept 15 dme arc. Turn onto inbound course to be established at 12 dme.
I only flew Hunters at VY and so longed for an Offset Tacan. Certain IREs expected one to perform a No Compass/No Gyro Point to Point to Alpha followed by a full Tacan Approach. My Limited Panel flying was very limited in those days but I suppose it did improve. Oh how I enjoyed the Phantom instrument displays, although still no Offset Tacan!

[BEagle]

Dominator2, I don't think we flew an arc let down in the Gnat. After levelling off from the TACAN dive, a quick whirl on the offset pots to set up for Point Foxtrot (was it 300/10?), then right onto an intercept heading for the ILS.

Limited panel in the Hunter after OR946 in the Gnat wasn't much fun!

[Wander00]

Ditto Canberra!

[mcdhu]

My memories of the Eureka/Rebecca in both the JP 3/4 and the Mk1 Andover was that it was almost completely useless. The Andover display was CRT as opposed to the dial in the JP which seemed to roam the miles scale on the dial randomly.
The Zero Reader was also fitted to all Mks of Andover I flew and was simply a poor man's flight director but worked ok as long as the I/B course was set with the drift applied.
Happy days - when every ILS was a raw data ILS.
mcdhu

[Chugalug2]

I wonder if the varying experiences of Rebecca/Eureka performance was directly related to the period of those experiences. I seem to remember that in the very early 60's they were fairly positive. We drew out range circles in different colours from the Eureka stations and then covered the topo' in clear Fablon. When airborne in the JP a range from one, and then another (and yet another?) would usually result in a fix (again, as far as I recall).

Could it be that the reliability of the ground stations (even transmitting at all?) could have deteriorated in later years? Just a thought...

As to the Zero Reader, it was even fitted to the Hastings, Beagle. Unlike my experience above, I do not have any positive memories of it. It shared with the Decca Log Mk1 (as fitted to the Hercules MkI) a requirement for you to hand feed it before it would grudgingly tell you anything of value.

[binbrook]

If the ACR6 was off, Eureka homing avoided too much chat on R/T for VDF, and fed nicely into BABS for an MDH (I don't think we called it that then) of 300ft, the same as an ACR7 approach. The trick was getting the drift right in the descent so that you didn't find yourself steaming through the C/L in the turn inbound, and it was as good as anything else that was available then. As to range, AFAIR Malta was good for 200nm.

[teeteringhead]

MDH (I don't think we called it that then) of 300ft Break Off Height!! :ok:

[Wander00]

That ISTR was the BoH for a Green or Master Green - I think we white cards added something like 500ft

[binbrook]

Thank you teeteringhead! It's a long time ago - I think there were still VRBs at Linton and Horsham for budding Top Guns.

[ExAscoteer]

Dear gods the Zero Reader.

We had one in the Dominie and a bloody useless piece of ****e it was too.

It was far easier to fly a raw ILS than use the thing.

Unfortunately it was beloved of ME Stds so you ended up having to x many Zero Reader ILSs per month.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

How amazingly fascinating is this thread - it should be a sticky comprising the most interesting non-precision approaches of the 60 -70s.

now, I recall, that a precision approach was defined as within 30deg of r/way caentreline (QDM?) where the touchdown point could be defined - and that gave you BOH. A non-precision approach left you with MDH, and, interestingly or not, you were allowed a dirty dart down to this height as soon as you had passed the gate.

mixed up in this was the circling minima, to convert the approach to a circuit.

there was a time when a Dominant obstacle allowance was added to an aircraft approach limitation, and maybe an extra 50ft for granny to give you something else that you kept a secret.

if really bored, do a PD to Alconbury.

The correct answer was, 30 sec to break or 200ft to land.

wets

[BEagle]

Ah yes - "The dominant obstacle allowance for this airfield approach procedure is.... "

Bloody nonsense that was!

"Whatyagot to PAR, 200 to land!" was the usual response to that piece of Air trafficking. Or indeed "30 sec....!"

:hmm:

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Aaaahhh. More half remembered stuff. You could (should) never go below MDH or BOH. But built into DH was 50ft to think maybe I land, maybe not. Criteria included (?) 2 bars of CL lighting. threshold , or threshold lights. runway sidelights. Fido.

...running rabbit at Hopsten was a bit of a surprise, first time in red.


I blame BAgel for keeping me awake thinking of stuff that is best forgotten

wets

[Top West 50]

Victor B1 Zero Reader?

[27mm]

Ah yes, DH, the height you descend to and then decide to carry on.....

[Firestreak]

Over the years both as a student and a QFI spent many hours watching the range needle swing hopelessly across the dial.

Re Tacan dives, all the UK Lightning stations had a dive circle a la Valley, started from Fl 360 and ended at point Alpha, 18 miles on the extended centre line of the main instrument runway for a pick up by ATC.

The Hopsten running rabbit saved me getting into a very embarrassing situation one day. On an actual diversion from Gutersloh, not a lot of fuel left, at 200ft nothing other than the unearthly glow from the lights just penetrating the murk but enough to get me further down to see the runway lights, DH--not a lot.

[xtp]

QFIing 68-72 on JPs, the Rebecca/Eureka was very useful during student IF trips or GH above cloud. Getting him to do a turn through the bearing to/from the beacon whilst watching the homing needle and compass allowed a 'silent' range/bearing fix to be taken without the student being aware, thus keeping track of position without affecting the student's situation awareness.