North up or Track up

[Squawk7700]

What's your flavour and why? I was questioned on this on the weekend by someone whom was adament that track up is the only way.

I'm a North up aviator because:

- I always know in which direction I am in relation to where I am headed (avoids the incorrect 5 miles to the west when it's actually east type call issues)
- When I'm circling around when lost :O the map stays still
- I always thought track up was the way that women read maps

Any suggestions?

[Jabawocky]

I find it depends on the speed of the aircraft as to what range you set track up to and then Nth up.

For me its about 200nm range everything is TRK up, when I pan out beyond that the map goes Nth up. That is based on about an hours travel.

Most of the airline guys will say TRK up I reckon.

Interesting question with many varied opinions I bet. :ok:

[Bus14]

Heading up, cos that's where the aircraft is pointing.
If heading up isn't available, then track up as a next best compromise.
North up, occasionally for planning, never for aviation.

My opinion only, not that of my employer (who uses track up).

[BANANASBANANAS]

I have flown B747, 757 and 767 track up. Now flying 777 heading up. With a total of over 20 years time to make my mind up, I would say track up every time.

[perantau]

On the nav display, track up as most nav is by inertial/gps. If radio-based nav, then heading up. On the electronic map, prefer north up as that's what I'm used to on paper.

[Metro man]

Our A320s are heading up but there is an option available for track up. It can cause a bit of confusion in the sim if it's left on another operators setting.

[Captain Nomad]

If you were taught to map read correctly back in your day VFR PPL stage, you would have had a map on your lap orientated to 'track up' so that you could read 'map to ground' comparing the map and the outside world in the same orientation. It makes sense to set up your GPS map the same way - heading up or track up. Much less mental re-arranging required with less potential errors to form the correct picture in your head! :)

[kaz3g]

I'm just an old PPL and have only ever flown VFR with one engine. I've spent a bit of time flying in the more remote areas and my "aids" consist of a compass and a watch supplemented by a Garmin 295 and the choice of a couple of iPads.

I use the non TSO electronics to help me verify my position on ground and paper and their correlation with my actual position has been remarkably consistent.

My GPS is set track up but my moving map is North up because I learned to navigate at sea and that's what you do with your charts when plotting with dividers and parallel ruler. Everything on a chart is printed North up after all and we do draw in our track lines, don't we?

Kaz

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

In the air or on the water - track up always !!!!!

Dr :8

[Seiran]

North up is the only way, people tried to force me to use track up but I hated it.

[Sunfish]

Norf up. I'm too old to change.

[OK4Wire]

Track up.

At low level and high speed anything else is a disaster.

[Squawk7700]

For those that use track up / heading up, do you use your moving map GPS to determine which direction you are approaching the airfield from, or do you look at the compass and refer to the opposing heading?

Eg. Heading from Melbourne to Adelaide with track up. Other than the fact that you know you are heading from east to west, do you look at the compass to determine your approach cardinal or do you refer to something on the moving map?

[spinex]

Bored Squawkie? That question's almost guaranteed to get people boxing. I was originally taught to navigate by an old salt who had a lot to say about those who navigate track up - and sit down to pee, so I'm still a North up by preference. Quite capable of doing track up and agree that air race style nav, low n fast is best done that way, but given that my flying isn't done that way, the only time I go track up is to accommodate the odd instructor who isn't capable of the same flexibility.

[601]

I was originally taught to navigate by an old salt who had a lot to say about those who navigate track up - and sit down to pee, so I'm still a North up by preference.

Must have been a regional thing amongst flying instructors.:hmm:

If you were taught to map read correctly back in your day VFR PPL stage, you would have had a map on your lap orientated to 'track up' so that you could read 'map to ground' comparing the map and the outside world in the same orientation. It makes sense to set up your GPS map the same way - heading up or track up. Much less mental re-arranging required with less potential errors to form the correct picture in your head!

Only way to go.:ok:

[Squawk7700]

Bored? You ain't seen nothing yet, wait until my next thread!

[spinex]

Lemme guess - the merits of an efato turn back? That'll be good for 6 pages and at least 3 sin-binnings.

[OK4Wire]

So, out of the 11,000 (or so) ADS-B tracked airliners that are airborne right now, I would guess about 100% are using track up on their displays.

They must be doing something right.

[spinex]

So, out of the 11,000 (or so) ADS-B tracked airliners that are airborne right now, I would guess about 100% are using track up on their displays.

They must be doing something right.

They also fly to a mach number, pump fuel about to keep the show balanced, operate mostly on auto-pilot, all of which are spectacularly irrelevant to the bug smasher having fun down below.

The part of this discussion that always amazes me is how vociferously the track up advocates defend their choice, whereas the North up heretics seem rather more laissez faire about it all.:suspect:

[Squawk7700]

I have my own thoughts that 99% of those that call and say that they are 5 or 10 miles to the east when they are actually to the west are using track up :ouch:

[parabellum]

If you were taught to map read correctly back in your day VFR PPL stage, you would have had a map on your lap orientated to 'track up' so that you could read 'map to ground' comparing the map and the outside world in the same orientation.

Agree 100%

For the North Uppers, have you seen those tests where they show you a multisided figure, drawn with many different faces, then they give three more similar drawings, only one of which is the same object from a different angle? Well that is what you are doing to yourself if you fly North Up, giving the brain extra, unnecessary work. Great on a nice day, when all is peace and quiet, but when things start going wrong you may need all your available brain power to cope with the aeroplane. Relating the map to the ground you are just comparing two, (hopefully!), identical pictures and not having to do mental gymnastics trying to orientate yourself! Just my two penneth. :)

[Squawk7700]

Great on a nice day, when all is peace and quiet, but when things start going wrong you may need all your available brain power to cope with the aeroplane. Relating the map to the ground you are just comparing two, (hopefully!),

Oh, perhaps that's where I'm going wrong :ouch:

It's not normally an issue for me, as don't we all read the Melways or Sydways with North up?

[Lancair70]

Ive not had the privilege of too much time in a glass cockpit.

With a map on the knee, track up in flight. A map in planning on the ground or quick enroute diversion, accurate track finding, north up.

Melways or other road maps when actually used to navigate by on the go, track up. Stopped and planning, north up.

[kaz3g]

If you were taught to map read correctly back in your day VFR PPL stage, you would have had a map on your lap orientated to 'track up' so that you could read 'map to ground' comparing the map and the outside world in the same orientation. It makes sense to set up your GPS map the same way - heading up or track up. Much less mental re-arranging required with less potential errors to form the correct picture in your head!

Sorry Captain, but I learned to navigate from people who knew how to use sextant, clock and compass before aeroplanes took to the sky. They navigated across the oceans at the time when even radio aids were in their absolute infancy so I sort of reckon I learned the real shebang.

Not many crossroads, rivers or railway lines out in the Pacific or even Bass Strait but those old sailors managed to get where they were going with North up all the way. So far, I have too.

How good are you at plotting a quick compass course on your paper chart folded track up?

Kaz

[Snakecharma]

You can't get track up on airbus (as far as I am aware) and on embraer jets. All heading up..much prefer track up..

[Metro man]

You can't get track up on airbus (as far as I am aware) and on embraer jets. All heading up..much prefer track up..

It's an option on the A320 which an operator is SE Asia who has leased the aircraft from Canada has. I did a base check on a simulator which had perviously been set up for use by their pilots.

Metric is also available if desired.

[aroa]

After decades of a map in the lap, track up, so the ground features were in relationship to the intended travels, it all worked out OK with stick, pencil, clock and compass. And correct turn for any diversion was never a problem

That the nautical nav chap, may plot the course north up..as we do, off the chart, the helmsman chappie/ess just points the ship in the direction of the compass course reqd...and his/her view in a sense would be 'track up' as any particular land or island would pass on the appropriate side. Hopefully.

[Captain Nomad]

Sorry Captain, but I learned to navigate from people who knew how to use sextant, clock and compass before aeroplanes took to the sky. They navigated across the oceans at the time when even radio aids were in their absolute infancy so I sort of reckon I learned the real shebang.


I don't doubt you learned good navigation technique. However blind Freddy can tell you that there are a few differences in practical application... People navigating across oceans are often doing it in a team (not to mention a nice big chart plotting table to spread out on). The one navigating is not always the one piloting. Additionally, there is a bit more time to plot your mental picture when you are travelling at 10 knots as opposed to aircraft speeds in the hundreds of knots with no navigator sitting beside you.

have worked alongside RAF Tornado crews and I am pretty sure the Nav uses North up.

Once again, he ain't the driver having to plot the mental picture appropriate to the piloting. Would be more interested in hearing what a Hornet driver uses...

I have my own thoughts that 99% of those that call and say that they are 5 or 10 miles to the east when they are actually to the west are using track up

That is a really poor excuse. It's like saying because someone made a radio call on the wrong frequency they should have only one radio in the plane instead of two or three. Before moving map displays, how do you think people worked out where they were relative to something? By referencing to the compass/DG/HSI etc. Guess what? It still works that way. It's not that hard! :rolleyes:

[Aviater]

+1 for North up. VFR recreational/commuter pilot.


My instructor told me to "do it the way that feels right and helps you paint a mental picture. There is no 'right' way"


When I did my flight test, the ATO asked me about it in the early stages of my flight. She said "I notice on your maps you fly north up. Why?"


I said it just feels right. Plus I don't have to stare at it to read it sideways or upside down.


ATO said "Great"


When I asked if it was common, I was told, "It's like left handed people, they do stuff a little different but the result is the same and right handed people accept them even though it looks odd." with a smile.


I am into a bit of large scale RC flying and have done since I was a kid. Is it possible that makes me more comfortable with left from right tracking back towards myself?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Why resort to the squat to piss insult/justification? Maybe little merit in any valid argument?

Sure Amelia Earhart kicked the siht out of any that make the gender argument in terms of flying (and espescially navigational) ability.:E
(oops....damn cats gotten out again!!!)

Only "valid" excuse I've heard for the north up argument is that they couldn't read words orientated any other way.:rolleyes:

[maehhh]

At typical GA speeds / altitudes there is no doubt, it is north up!! :ok:

I am into a bit of large scale RC flying and have done since I was a kid. Is it possible that makes me more comfortable with left from right tracking back towards myself?

It is an interesting thought.... I did a lot of RC flying as a kid too and as you see I ended up in the church of north up as well.

[training wheels]

For GA flying, why does it have to be one or the other? The handheld Garmin 795 I use for GA flying does both automagically. North up when zoomed out (for seeing the bigger picture) and track up when zoomed in for tracking purposes. Having both as an option when needed would certainly aid in better situational awareness.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Maps, track up. Charts for in-cockpit use, track up.
It's much easier to directly relate to the outside world.
Naval Charts, north up. Not enough space for track up, nor is one moving fast enough for it to matter, and there's too much writing and symbology that would be harder to absorb at an angle. I was taught and teach North Up for charts on offshore yachts. I was taught and teach making up a track up sketch map for pilotage situations.
High Level aircraft nav charts, if the same conditions apply as for naval charts, then North Up.

What may be causing the confusion was the plan view display on the Tornado F3, which could only show North Up. It could have a few green nav points and lines dropped in, and also gave a God's Eye view on the radar tracks.
The moving map in the GR version was pretty much always Track Up, I believe. That was certainly how moving maps were used in other RAF mud movers (e.g. Jag, Harrier).

There were benefits to North Up when on Combat Air Patrol, due to the racetrack pattern flown, and it could also be better than track up to relate 'Bullseye' calls from 'Magic' (AWACS).
The other TV Tab displayed the Radar picture and was effectively always Track Up.
The pilot had a single TV and could switch between either. I always carried a real map, track up, for stuff like escort missions.

As a civvy light aircraft instructor, I always taught track up.

And for completeness:
Land orienteering, track up
underwater scuba navigation, track up.
(I've taught both of those, too).

[Clare Prop]

Whatever works and gets the stude able to navigate to the required standard.

Personally I prefer North up for my own orientation. Some people prefer track up, Problems arise when an instructor insists on one or the other without allowing for differences between individuals and insists that thiers is the only way. I use aircraft GPS and car sat nav North up as well.