cockpit visits

[pilotb777300]

Hi guys,

I was just wondering what the latest is with rules regarding cockpit vists specifically on jetstar ? I'm a BOEING engineering (With company ID on me if it makes any difference) and I'll be flying jetstar to the gold coast next week. I've got myself and my 1 year old son which is going to be his first flight !. What are the chances of visiting the pointy end of the aircraft while on the ground either before or after the flight to get a picture or 2 of him and myself in there... Would be a great souvenir to show him when he gets a bit older ! what are the laws these days regarding this sort of thing ? when I was younger, I remember flying heaps of times in the jump seat of the old ansett B767's. the flight crew were more than happy to accommodate... Its one of the reasons I got into the industry to begin with. I know things r very different these days... Is it still worth asking at the gate ? and if so who do I ask ?

Thanks

[waren9]

none of the guys i know there would have any problem with it. make your request once onboard and pop in at the end when everyones disembarking :ok:

do it quite often

[0tto]

Hi,
I can't speak for others, but it is always welcomed (on my flights anyway)! I would ask the FA to ask the tech crew up front if you can visit after the flight.

There's less workload at the end of the flight, so that'll be the best time to visit.

Have fun!

[The Green Goblin]

It's generally an airline policy no flight deck visits in the predeparture phase.

However at the end of the flight, pilots are always happy to have visitors.

Just remember with photography, many airlines have a social media policy. No pics on Facebook that can identify the aircraft operator. So if your son sits in the seat great, don't capture the rego if you're going to post it online. The crew can get in loads of trouble. Especially if the photos are misrepresented.

[ACMS]

To quote the old Ansett

ABSOLUTELY

:ok:

Don't ask at the gate, they will say no......Ask during flight to the senior cabin crew and give them your card to pass up to the Captain, I'm sure it will be ok.


Such a crying shame we can't have good people like this in the cockpit during flight anymore, one of the biggest things we've lost over the years since 911...

[benttrees]

Pilot777300,
You and your child are welcome on my/our flight deck ( another Australian airline) anytime, pre or post departure.
Photos are more than accommodated, I'll even let him wear my hat !!!.... If he wants to !
I hope to see you on board one day.
Cheers

[CaptCloudbuster]

I always used to get the kids to wear my hat until one day my offsider remarked how prevelent nits were amongst school aged kids:}

[caneworm]

So use the F/O's hat:ok:

[Iron Bar]

You guys do realise that discussing flight deck access protocols and quoting ops manuals on PPrune is not exactly a great idea.

Ask the flight attendant is all that needs to be said.

[IsDon]

You guys do realise that discussing flight deck access protocols and quoting ops manuals on PPrune is not exactly a great idea.

Ask the flight attendant is all that needs to be said.

Oh get a grip mate.

No national secrets broken here.

FFS some people think they work for ASIS instead of just being an airframe driver.

[Ollie Onion]

Pre-departure visits not allowed but I always welcome visitors on arrival, just let the Cabin Manager know during the flight and then come on up and say gidday.

Cheers

[Iron Bar]

Oh really?

Try running that past your employers security manager and see how they react.

Where does harmless chatter stop and your national security line start? Flight deck access is pretty fundamental and some very experienced people (think AFP and ex military, ASIS are more about intelligence gathering) make policy for all phases of "flight". Mouthy "airframe drivers" whatever that is, best keep that **** to themselves.

The people that would seek to do you harm, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. The people who design policy to protect you, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. So, shut the **** up.

[pilotb777300]

Thanks all for the replies. I understand what is being said about not discussing any ops procedures publicly. That's the kind of precautions that unfortunately need to be taken these days to avoid a repeat of history. I have to deal with similar rules on a daily basis just applied in a different context.
I'll ask one of the FAs on the way out. Hopefully flight crew not to busy to spare 2 or 3 mins.

[Roo]

I'll ask one of the FAs on the way out. Hopefully flight crew not to busy to spare 2 or 3 mins.
Ask on the way in or inflight for a visit after arrival at destination. Gives everyone a heads up and more likely a yes for you. Enjoy.

Ironbar take a Bex

[Blackdog320]

You sure you've met them iron bar?

[Iron Bar]

pilotb' I'm sure you will have no dramas and the vast majority of crews will be more than accommodating when they can, all good.

For the get a grip gang, let me run this past you.

We have now had Gob' publicise his employers policy straight from the ops manual. It's not too hard to work out who that employer is from his previous ramblings. lets say organisation A.

Benttrees has very kindly told us (in a slightly confusing fashion) that on his flight deck with "another Australian airline" you are welcome "anytime, per or post departure" Organisation B perhaps.

This has been transmitted across the globe to ANYONE who cares to read it.

Now if I was a scumbag wanting to do you harm and felt the urge to, oh I don't know, place a disabling device on your flight deck, during a pre departure visit? I would now be looking squarely at someone other than organisation A.

Think about it. By making this stuff public you are making things visible that shouldn't be. The fact that pilotb' had to ask means that (until now) it wasn't public knowledge.

If I was Gob or Benttrees I would be deleting those posts right now. Probably worth the moderator deleting the whole thread.

[Iron Bar]

AFP and ex Mil' guys (and others), yep. ASIS, I wouldn't know, thats what ASIS means. . . . .

[morno]

Ohh please. As if anyone is going to be able to plant anything in the flight deck when you've got two sets of eyes watching you.

No national security secrets broken here.

Look at it this way Iron Bar, isn't post flight also pre-flight for another leg?

morno

[Iron Bar]

Naive Morno. Remember, The people that would seek to do you harm, are smarter than you. Lax procedures of distracted or complacent pilots (or cabin crew) would be easy to defeat.

Look, the issue here is not so much about any particular circumstances. It's more about the obligation not to make any of this stuff public, full stop.

[Di_Vosh]

Not sure about you, Iron Bar but I have had experience in the seeking and exploitation of "loopholes in processess" for the doing of harm (to them, of course, not to us) :8

You're right, of course, when you say that

Lax procedures of distracted or complacent pilots would be easy to defeat.

But I think that the correlation of the above statement and the discussion on this thread about FAM procedures is a long bow to draw.

DIVOSH!

[IsDon]

Oh really?

Try running that past your employers security manager and see how they react.

Where does harmless chatter stop and your national security line start? Flight deck access is pretty fundamental and some very experienced people (think AFP and ex military, ASIS are more about intelligence gathering) make policy for all phases of "flight". Mouthy "airframe drivers" whatever that is, best keep that **** to themselves.

The people that would seek to do you harm, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. The people who design policy to protect you, ARE SMARTER THAN YOU. So, shut the **** up.

I spent 16+ years in the military. Including a fair swag of that time at 92 Wing. Not sure what that is, go look it up. It's publicly available with a Google search. You see the existence of this organisation isn't classified, nor for that matter the existence of ASIS or any of the other organisations I've mentioned. Yet these organisations, and their roles, have far more to keep discreet than your average airline. I've also worked in some of the most secure headquarters buildings In this country. I think I know a little bit about REAL security, and not the farce that I have to deal with in the aviation industry.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, mentioned in this thread which would detract from the operational security of an airline and to suggest it is is just plain ignorant rubbish.

Do you honestly think that someone would use the information on this thread to smuggle a disabling device into a flight deck when you and I both know (well at least I hope you know) that you could (quite literally) drive a truck through the farce that is airport security?

No. The real problem with the aviation industry in this country is through twits like you appointing yourselves as the gatekeepers when you clearly don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

Gone are the times when, sadly, people with a keen interest in flying can jump seat for take off and landing, or come up for a visit in the cruise. I can see the point in that with the benefit of hindsight sad though the world is. There is nothing prohibiting those visits while the aircraft is at the gate, for my airline anyway, and most I expect, and there are no restrictions about making that information public.

So if anyone should "SHUT THE F$@K UP". It's twits like you IB. The world is annoying enough without tools like you making it worse.

[Iron Bar]

Di Vosh,

The basis of a serious security policy and procedure such as those found in the FAM is confidentiality. The day to day security procedures are not publicly available for a very good reason.

Ignoring such a fundamental policy as the non disclosure of company security sensitive information appears to be a pretty big loophole to me and in this case has highlighted a potential loophole.

Sure, discuss FAM procedures. Just not on a worldwide, public and anonymous forum! Pilots are not qualified (self included) to determine whats really important or what can be discussed as harmless chatter.

[Iron Bar]

Did years of droning Orion engines make you cranky Don? Don't blame me for the security issues, I'm just pointing out what is bleeding obvious.

Gone are the times indeed, shame but thats the world in which we currently live.

[IsDon]

Did years of droning Orion engines make you cranky Don? Don't blame me for the security issues, I'm just pointing out what is bleeding obvious.

Gone are the times indeed, shame but thats the world in which we currently live.

No not cranky per se. But it did give me a low tolerance of fools.

I'm not blaming you for the present security issues. What is bleeding obvious is your misunderstanding of them.

There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure. That doesn't make them classified, just not things the world needs to know, or probably cares about. This issue of flight deck visits on the ground is not one of them.

In fact things that are classified are specifically NOT in the manuals. Think about that for a while and why that might be.

We should be doing all we can to foster interest in our profession. Not only is it good for customer satisfaction, it adds so much more to my job as well. I encourage flight deck visits whenever I see an opportunity.

[Iron Bar]

FFS Don encouraging flight deck visits was never the issue.

There are some very clear provisions in the FAM and similar manuals that you might want to re-read.

"There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure."

Yes and the specifics of flight deck security is one of them!!!

Anyway, point made.

[IsDon]

FFS Don encouraging flight deck visits was never the issue.

There are some very clear provisions in the FAM and similar manuals that you might want to re-read.

"There are certain things in the FAM, or other equivalent manuals from other companies that are not for public consumption, sure."

Yes and the specifics of flight deck security is one of them!!!

Anyway, point made.

There are none so blind.........

[Di_Vosh]

Iron Bar

You've admitted that you don't know what you're talking about, but insist on telling us what you think we should publicly discuss, based on nothing but your opinion on what constitutes security.

MY OPINION (I have experience to back my opinion. Do you?) is that what has been discussed here regarding different company procedures regarding the timing of flight deck visits has zero effect on flight security.

To extend your logic via a process of "reductio ad abusrdum" you'd not be on this website at all admitting that you're a pilot.

DIVOSH!

[IsDon]

Steel Rod.

Can't you see you've argued against your own point in one paragraph.

You say you have no issue encouraging flight deck visits, yet by so doing you are publicising (to the visitor at the very least) that they are possible upon request.

Presumably you know that and read the 7 year old concerned extracts from the official secrets act, threatening imprisonment should be divulge the details of such visit at show and tell on Monday morning. Or do you follow him around in your SUV with the dark tinted windows?

[Iron Bar]

Guys, knock yourselves out. Talk about what you wish and have your own opinions, based on whatever experience you claim to have.

Just realise that the guy who signs off you ASIC may have a different one and this sort of thing is taken seriously.

[Di_Vosh]

Just realise that the guy who signs off you ASIC may have a different one and this sort of thing is taken seriously.

ROFL!

Mate, give it a rest. You clearly have no idea about any aspect of security.

DIVOSH!

[ad-astra]

Iron Bar,

Just wondering whether this "disabling device" that you have based your concerns on has passed through security and if so why it wasn't picked up.

Perhaps a little less preaching and and more effort in getting laid will assist your outlook.

In any case Airline B pilots will also welcome the kids up the front!

[IsDon]

Just realise that the guy who signs off you ASIC may have a different one and this sort of thing is taken seriously.

I can just see the headlines now.

PILOT DENIED SECURITY CLEARANCE FOR PERMITTING COCKPIT VISIT

Oh pleeaaasse make it me.

[The Green Goblin]

Steel rod has just got a bone to pick with me.

There is nothing I have said that isn't publicly available. Its probably even on the website under q and a.

I did have a rather large paragraph written about your character, but I'd prefer not to play the man and would rather kick the ball.

This is after all a thread about another aviation professional wishing to share with his child the same experiences he grew up with.

We as pilots all have the same aspirations and enjoy similar things. Probably why we were attracted to this job in the first place. It's a privilege to be able to share that passion with somebody else.

[The name is Porter]

God spare me..........another one is on the loose and you lot engage him/her in conversation :ugh:

[pilotb777300]

oh crap I didn't expect to start an argument between all of you lol I apologize in advance ! Goblin, ur right that's all I was trying to do with my kid. I've actually had many conversations with my wife as to whether We will be ecouraging him into the industry or not. I know I'm lucky to have ended up where I am now job wise. It could very easily have ended up pretty badly for me in aviation if I wasn't at the right place at the right time. I remember my first time on a flight deck like it was yesterday. I was only 13 or 14 on a flight to Sydney on 767 (-200's from memory) . I was sitting there minding my own business with my parents when I was actually approached by a very friendly member of the cabin crew who asked if I wanted to go up front and visit the flight crew. I jumped at the chance and was then asked by the flight crew if I wanted to hang around for the approach into Sydney. It ended up being the first of many visits up front and my love for the industry has remained since that day. Again I know things are very different today but I want to at least try and give my son the opportunity to enjoy something that has given me so much joy (and a few nightmares) over the years. I'll let you guys know how I went after I get back from our holiday next week. Hes probably too young to understand anything just yet but at least they'd be memorable pictures ! :)

[Pastor of Muppets]

IronBar. You are a muppet.

[wondrousbitofrough]

Gentlemen, (I use the term loosely).

This thread started out as a genuine enquiry by someone working for an outside company asking if he could bring his youngster onto the flight deck.

It has now descended into petty bickering and name throwing. When you wake up and realise how immature your replies are I hope you hang your heads in shame. Professionals? My a**e.

[IsDon]

Gentlemen, (I use the term loosely).

This thread started out as a genuine enquiry by someone working for an outside company asking if he could bring his youngster onto the flight deck.

It has now descended into petty bickering and name throwing. When you wake up and realise how immature your replies are I hope you hang your heads in shame. Professionals? My a**e.

True words. And for my part therein I apologise.

For the record. Flight deck visits are not a problem. I'd go so far as to say they are actually encouraged and looked forward to by the vast majority of us.

Ask the question. It will almost certainly reply with a yes and end with lots of happy memories. The ones like we remember when we were kids.

[NSEU]

Try running that past your employers security manager and see how they react.

Indeed. I recall the flaming hoops we had to jump through to show visitors around the maintenance hangars. There was even paperwork saying visitors should not go past the cockpit door.

There are rules (stupid or otherwise) written down somewhere, although the rules of different departments most likely don't agree with each other.

Whether you want to bend or break those rules, I guess, is up to you.

[j3pipercub]

Profeshunal Playschoolers Ruma Netwerk

That was a good read. Don't feel so bad about my lot in life anymore.

j3

[Iron Bar]

Nasty nasty nasty, what an angry cacophony.

Now, for those having trouble with reading and comprehension, I shall reiterate. Flight deck visits are good, great. May pilotb', his youngster and everyone else have many happy visits, take photos and enjoy the experience. May there be many happy memories like there used to be when we were kids. Clear enough?

The simple point I tried to make was that discussing the policy and procedures related to flight deck access, no mater how trivial they may appear, on this forum ain't that smart.

Gob', here's a ball for you to kick. Have a look at your OM1, (the ops manual you mentioned earlier) Section 0 preface, 0.1. Conditions of use and possession. Pay attention to expressions like; confidential internal document and shall not be discussed or distributed.

Then have a look at your security manual, p12 introduction bottom of the page.

Does that make sense?

Di Vosh and Don from 92 wing, if your interested have a look at FAM 1.5.1 to 1.5.3 and the same security manual.

The ASIC policy is one you won't find, but would most likely be the basis for action taken against anyone for breaching the company confidentialities they are obliged to keep. Especially related to security.

It's not about excluding kids from flight deck visits, just being aware of what should be said in public and what should not. Common sense stuff, make your own judgement and cover your own ass, or don't.

Now, time for Jake the peg and a flip through my little black book. No firearms anymore, but after todays onslaught I may have to think again . . . .

Goodnight Fokkers

[mppgf]

Gee Iron Bar not only are you discussing a confidential document on a public forum but you are then distributing said document by publishing parts of it on said forum.
Just remember [QUOTE]discussing the policy and procedures related to flight deck access, no mater how trivial they may appear, on this forum ain't that smart./QUOTE]
I have sent a link to this discussion to the guy who signs off on YOUR ASIC.:oh:

[The Bullwinkle]

Iron bar knows the manuals inside out!
Most of the people I know who go around quoting manuals chapter and verse usually have no actual knowledge.

Say no more. :mad:

[Evanelpus]

I'll bet the OP wished he'd never asked:ugh:

Whoever lit the fuse on Iron Bars tampon, please leave this Forum immediately;)

[laardvark]

now it wants a gun ? holy compliance batman .

[donpizmeov]

So to recap...to gain entry for flight deck visit, it's two taps of the nose with right index finger, then handshake for ministry of silly walks. Agreed?
Right...now let's all keep it secret.

[Typhoon650]

All this talk of cockpit security and radicalized terrorists but people want the cockpit visits back?
Do you really want to incite impressionable teenagers into following the teachings of the KASA and spend all their spare time and money devoted to some foolish ideology of an aviation nirvana, when they could be in school?:}

[AU-501]

This is SO prune

Pathetic on a grand scale