RAF ground crew to aircrew

[RG56]

Can I join as a weapons tech and apply for aircrew later on in my career

[Tashengurt]

No because;
A: There's no way you could work all those delicate switches with a hammer.

and

B: You can't fit an Uckers board in a cockpit.

[NutLoose]

You could do, but in my time it always seemed a hard task to do so, probably since they had already trained you and would need to replace you, I often thought the direct entry route seemed the quickest route, it also depends on what you go for as commissions were also harder to aquire from the ranks.

[Tashengurt]

Plenty have though Nutty, including a fairly well known GW1 Nav. (OK not a pilot but the same procedure applies).

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

The aircrew selection board will want to know why you didn't apply directly. Have a good answer. If you don't have a good answer, apply directly.

p.s. Tash - he could apply as an Instie and transfer- they use very small hammers!

[O-P]

I know of a weapons tech that ended up as a VC10 captain, one that was a Jaguar driver and a Regt Gunner that became one of the Reds.

[jonw66]

I would say if you have the ability to go aircrew go straight for that, the guys reminiscences are mainly from a time long ago with respect to them.
Speak to CIO they will have the answers.
The numbers are small for getting in so serving as a tech is wasted time if that makes sense.
Someone will probably put it better than me.
Fox3?

[airpolice]

O-P, which Red would that be?

[O-P]

AP

Kxxxxn Txxxs. Did one or two F3 tours (23), after his creamie tour, I'm guessing he was on the Reds in the mid/late 90s.

[airpolice]

I flew with a QFI @ Valley in 1974, who had been a Regt Gunner. He went to Cathay Pacific instead of the Reds.

[ksimboy]

Tash'
It is possible to fit an Uckers board in the cockpit. I recall seeing one modified to fit over the throttle quadrant on Albert many years ago. One the flight safety chaps and chappesses werent aware of i believe.

[camelspyyder]

I flew with a Flt deck comprised of 3 ex-armourers (1 Pilot, 1 WSOP, 1 trainee)

Suffice to say, arriving back on terra firma was a pleasant surprise. ;)

[Wander00]

Has anyone made it from airman to CAS. AFAIK only one guy in the Army (to CIGS) - Sir William Robertson during WW1

[Vim_Fuego]

Quite a few have incl. 'moi' in the NCA world...a lot of loadies were ex rozzers and rocks whilst techies leaned towards Eng and AEOp.

As most have said...if you are qualified and motivated to go aircrew now then do so. It's not only the interviews and tests you have to do to cross over but some of the attitude change/adjustment that may occur from the ground environment that may prove difficult to overcome down route.

[The Old Fat One]

I knew quite a few dudes that went:

airmen - NCA - fast jets,

Including one fireman (when they were serviceman) and two leckys (the fireman went jags I think, the leckys went 1 jag 1 F4).

these were mates of mine...there were plenty of others.

That said, I agree these times have gone. Couple of years back i knew an air cadet that completed gold glider, ACPS, finished top 4, came back for John Cunningham Trophy, won that and still did not get in.

Its a tough gig these days - go for it out the box.

[PTR 175]

It was not uncommon to move from the ground to the air. A lot of Flight Engineers were ex Ground crew. However this option is not open now unless you can get a job on the BofB memorial flight.

Several of the Nimrod Wet and Dry ops were ex ground pounders as well.

I know of an ex Cosford Flight systems Apprentice who went on to become the station master at Waddington and became an Air Commodore at HQ Air. He was a Nav or WSO depending on when you srved. He did have the advantage of winning the Phillip Sassoon Flying award whilst at Cosford as one of the best apprentices. We both come from the same town and both are fathers worked at the same place. No more to say but some of you reading this will know of whom I speak. I do have an interesting story about the person concerned but may save that for another day. He is safely retired now and living in his home county.

So yes, it can be done, but the opportunities are less now than what they used to be.

[FantomZorbin]

1970s, CO @ Finningley "It is NOT my policy to promote from the Ranks" ... an absolute 'bar steward'!!! :mad:

[mymatetcm]

It is possible to do , the majority of NCA are ex tradesmen.
However I would put in an app for NCA and visit 55sqn who do a fam visit the last thursday of every month. Your local AFCO should be able to give you all the info you need.

[Tashengurt]

It's a funny question really. I'd imagine that most who take this route join with no intention of flying until they get a taste of service life and realise that the winged gods are actually just mortals like themselves.
If you already feel you may have the potential why first join the ranks?

[Mr C Hinecap]

If you filter out the selective memory and history so far in this thread, joining as a junior rank with the intention of becoming an Officer (never mind a Pilot) is ill advised. Very very few people ever make it. If you have the aptitude for Pilot, go for it. If you haven't, there's almost nothing about being an airman that will give you that aptitude. If you need to grow up a bit, go get a degree, join the UAS, apply for Pilot. If being an airman made you more suitable to be an Officer, it would be the route for all. It isn't.

[Timelord]

Is the reason that you are not applying for aircrew directly because you do not have the necessary academic qualifications? If so, you would still need to obtain those qualifications before being able to apply for aircrew, even from within the service.

[Hempy]

To give the OP a serious answer, I've seen it happen successfully many times before. Some people who just missed the grade initially who then gain a few more years of life/service experience are perfect for aircrew. Go for it :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Carl Dixon was ex-RAF Regiment. He did OK....

[jayteeto]

I was a Flt Systems Techie for 7 years before commissioning as a pilot. I would never have passed in a million years if I had tried to do pilot directly. The 7 years of experience got me through.......... just.
I haven't done too badly since then..........

[Pontius Navigator]

I asked a very confident airwoman with 4 A levels why she hadn't gone for a commission. Her answer was quite reasonable. She didn't believe you could lead unless you had been led. Ie she wanted to be one of them before she was commissioned.

And another who wanted to wait until her SNCO husband retired. In the event she got her commission and was shot down while he was still serving.

While it might seem harder to cross over, it has always been done and mostly to good effect.

[Wander00]

PN - I was not aware that and RAF woman aircrew had been shot down -is general enlightenment possible?

[ian16th]

It was a very common career path for Apprentices, ask Frank Whittle!

[Pontius Navigator]

Thanks to Wander, I am reminded that there used to be Commissioning clubs, I don't know if they still exist, but were evidence of an active route to a commission.

[dynamics]

This has been (if not still is) possible, although luck and sheer determination would appear to play a role. I'm personally aware of one who failed initial pilot selection, joined as firefighter (with no real intention of fighting fires, but keen to get in), re-applied and eventually went on to earn his wings. Another who initially joined as engineer and was later put forward for pilot selection due to both his service record (and presumably alot of ass kissing) and simply being in the right place at the right time. Lucky boy!

Tho as other have said, certainly go direct if you can.

[downsizer]

Commissioning clubs are very much active and indeed if a serving airman isn't attending one, serious questions will be asked at FI and OASC.

[Wander00]

Commissioning Clubs - very successful as I recall

[kintyred]

Shytorque,

Carl Dixon tried to go RAF Regt and when he failed he remustered as pilot!

[Halton Brat]

It was a very common career path for Apprentices, ask Frank Whittle!
Sir Keith Williamson CAS/Halton Brat

[Jayand]

"I asked a very confident airwoman with 4 A levels why she hadn't gone for a commission"
It still amazes me that people are surprised that not everyone wants to be commissioned.
Lots of my my ex colleagues were better academically qualified than our commissioned leaders and were very happy with their chosen path.

Getting a commission certainly never interested me.

[Wander00]

HB - thanks. "Couth Keith" indeed. ISTR once decreed that no divorced officer would reach Air Rank

[Stitchbitch]

Op, yes you can. One of our fine 29(F) armourers did it. Quite surprised to see him walk in and ask me to polish his helmet :ooh: That was on the mighty Puma, and seems far to long ago. :sad:

[Courtney Mil]

Some very good thoughts being put out here, but I notice the OP is conspicuous by his abscence. Are you there and reading or did you chuck in a hand grenade and depart?

[Broon Ale]

Certainly wasn't a problem in the early 90's. The PE'd flight and education section used to run excellent courses to prepare a candidate for the Station Board and OASC. That was a long time ago though and a different RAF, I'd say go for it now.

[ursa_major]

Has anyone made it from airman to CAS. AFAIK only one guy in the Army (to CIGS) - Sir William Robertson during WW1

Technically, yes. Sir Michael Beetham would have held the rank of AC from reporting to 3ACRC in October '41, through his time in 17ITW at Scarborough until his posting to 11EFTS in Feb '42 as LAC Beetham.

[RG56]

Hi everyone one thanks for the advice and this thread has certainly made my mind up about joining up.I just got back from my AFCO were I signed tons of paper work and now I'm just waiting on him calling me to tell me the date for my aptitude test so fingers crossed I pass:E:ok:

[thing]

As others have said, if you want to be aircrew why not apply for it?

One fairly obscure but proven route you could take if you weren't successful would be to join as an airman on the shortest engagement (I've no idea what that would be these days, it was three years when I were a lad) learn to fly at low cost at one of the many RAF flying clubs dotted around and go civvy. I've known one or two over the years that have done this, most recently an SAC gunner who went from first flight for his PPL to RH seat for a LoCo in around two years.

[RG56]

I would like to apply for aircrew but I don't have the right qualifications to do so that's why I'm trying to find other routes:ok:

[Slow Biker]

RG56, once you join the very special armourers' club you will not want to leave.

[Wander00]

Well, we all started as AC2s, even at The Towers, I really meant from non-commissioned service

[ian16th]

Well, we all started as AC2s

Err No!

Boy Entrants, Aircraft Apprentices and Admin Apprentices didn't.

[Robert Cooper]

RG56

After I passed out from the Aircraft Apprentices I spent about 18 months getting the GCEs I needed to apply for aircrew. Finally passed through the Aircrew Selection Center at Hornchurch in 1959.

It can be done. But that was then, and I don't know what it is like now. I retired in 1983 :)

Bob C

[thing]

RG56:

I would suggest go for it then; after all someone has to do the pointy end bit, why not you? But as Slow Biker says, you may really enjoy being a techy. I applied for pilot straight from school at 17; didn't get it, joined up as a techy in the meantime with the intention of applying again but found my forte as it were which I thoroughly enjoyed for 20 odd years. Learned to fly anyway and got my flying kicks that way. As an aside, the top aerobatic competition pilot in the RAF is an Avionics Chief Tech. You don't have to be a 'pro' to enjoy your flying, although getting paid for it helps...:)

[Eul0gy]

I just want to chip in as someone who is currently going from ranks to wsop. It is possible but I'm currently in a bun fight with my trade desk as they won't release me due to trade manning issues. If you can join up first time in the role you want to do I would say go that route. The other route is possible but there may be variables that come into play which come with being in service already

[charliegolf]

I would like to apply for aircrew but I don't have the right qualifications to do so that's why I'm trying to find other routes

Don't join, get the quals! Go to college, bang out 3 GCSEs (Ma, Phys and Eng) in one year- apply. Make sure you make a point of saying that when you made the decision to be a wsop, you decided that nothing was going to stand in your way. That softens your poor school performance a little, and underlines your determination.

If that fails, be an erk!

The RAF is shrinking. I predict it will get harder to trade hop- especially when you are actually very well qualified in a trade.

CG

[lj101]

Ashley Stevenson was a Techie - he did ok I suppose.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Stevenson

[goudie]

I had a mate, cpl techie, who applied for pilot and was accepted. He was commissioned as a pilot officer but got the chop on his flying course. As I remember it he had to leave the Service because he was not offered an alternative as an officer and he couldn't revert back to the ranks. He was rather peeved because he was now out of a job.
In todays RAF if someone takes the airman to officer aircrew route and fails the flying course, will he have lost the chance of a career in the RAF as a Techie?

[jonw66]

Charliegolf has it right although you needed Maths and Physics to join as an erk when I joined.

[Jamieone]

I believe a former Red and Station Commander RAF Valley in the early 00s was also commissioned from the ranks? A Harrier mate too.

If you have the opportunity, the motivation and the aptitude I say go for it.

[downsizer]

I would like to apply for aircrew but I don't have the right qualifications to do so that's why I'm trying to find other routes:ok:

What type of aircrew? Pilot or WSOp?

What quals are you missing?

Have you applied yet?

Age?

[O-P]

Air Marshal Cliff Spink didn't do that badly.

[Jayand]

Goudie, am pretty sure that is still the case.
Utter stupidity if you ask me, once you have become commissioned there is no way back if it all goes belly up in training or like your pal the job is taken away, just throwing away perfectly good people, good people who were brave enough to show ambition. Madness :ugh:
What, once you've been through the Cranwell sausage factory you will never be the same? lol well apart from the labotomy and spine removal;)
Know of a few guys who came from GC to Airman aircrew training, failed and went straight back to rank and trade, why not for O's??

[Wensleydale]

I remember some crew room gossip a good few years ago when there were no commissioning opportunities for AEOps due to a glut of AEOs with the end of V Force. Some AEOps said that they were considering applying for Pilot or Nav then failing the course after commissioning to return to their former employ as an AEO. I know of one AEOp who went through Nav school after this loophole had been closed knowing that he would be out of a job (or admin) if he failed his Nav course. No pressure then!


One wonders at the number of engineering officer posts available these days - especially with the proliferation of commercial contractors. Perhaps the same restrictions apply for engineers who fail aircrew training at the moment?

[Fluffy Bunny]

Indeed, unless they've got pi$$ poor management skills (though some would say that's a pre-requisite!) If they've already shown they are a good techie then why not side shift to the commissioned ranks in that trade if they are binned during flying training.
In the days gone by that's what used to happen was it not? You worked up (on time promotion for some trades) to FS or Wobbly, then took a branch commission if you so wished, until pension time.

[thing]

Re ex rankers who done good, Air Marshall Sir Dusty Miller was ex airframe fitter.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fluffy, true but in this type of case, gnd crew to failed aircrew, the person is too young to have built up a wealth of trade experience to automatically switch to Eng O. They would need at OASC to have the quals for aircrew or eng.

One of my nav studes was a chopped pilot, chopped NAv, but with his BEng was accepted as an Eng O, last I heard he was a sqn ldr.

[Fitter2]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lee_(pilot)

also did quite well in aviation, not only as a Phantom pilot.

[Jayand]

Pontious, not strictly true. Many wait unti they are older to go aircrew and do have plenty of technical experience, in many cases much more than a lot of the Engo's around who have nothing but a piece of paper from a University and couldn't tell one end of a spanner form the other.

[jayteeto]

I applied to be an Eng Officer and was turned down then offered pilot

[Pontius Navigator]

Jay and, I was thinking pilot training and your techie would not have that long to build up experience.

[RG56]

To answer a couple of questions that everyone has asked me,I'm 16 I have 5 GCSEs all at grade c and I would like to apply to be a weapons system operator when Im 20 that way I have done 4 years service and if I fail selection I've got another 3 years left to apply

[NutLoose]

Pontious, not strictly true. Many wait unti they are older to go aircrew and do have plenty of technical experience, in many cases much more than a lot of the Engo's around who have nothing but a piece of paper from a University and couldn't tell one end of a spanner form the other.


Oddly enough we had a Corporal, with whom I was friends, who went that route and became an Engo.
In discussion when he left I said jokingly i'd still call him a W**k*r when he was promoted... roll on 3 years and walking into a hangar in RAFG and there was a new Flt Lt L*****, walking towards him from out of his line of sight I called out L***** you W**k*r!.. LOL, we had a good laugh and chat catching up on things... it was last time I saw him in my career.

[ian16th]

I believe that there was a scheme between the wars, where ex-Apprentices, that had become SNCO's could train as aircrew and complete a tour as such, then return to their original ground crew trade, with their time in rank maintained.

This was to help them 'understand' the flying thingies for an aircrew perspective.

[thing]

I had several SENGOS who wore pilot's wings which I believe was a similar scheme. In fact I believe I'm correct in saying there were a handful of docs at the IAM who were trained as pilots to fly the Hunter T7.

[Pontius Navigator]

RG56, you say you have 5c grades. As you state correctly your graded are insufficient for officer entry as you need 2A level as well.

Even for WSOp you need specific GSCE subjects as well as numbers particularly English and Maths. You would certainly have an opportunity to take GCSE once you had joined but why not do it now?

[pgaruk]

My time consisted of AApp (Arm't) - Sgt AA - Jnr Tech (V's at Fin) - Sgt Pilot (last one trained, wings 64) - Tport till 76 (VC10's - Flt Lt) - South African Air Force Capt to Lt Col (Commandant) till 88. Cargo carriers Africa, Cen America and M East. 30 yrs Herc's. Yes it COULD be done but I don't think the scope exists these days.

[ian16th]

pgaruk (http://www.pprune.org/members/126644-pgaruk)

Did you know Ivan Spring?

[downsizer]

To answer a couple of questions that everyone has asked me,I'm 16 I have 5 GCSEs all at grade c and I would like to apply to be a weapons system operator when Im 20 that way I have done 4 years service and if I fail selection I've got another 3 years left to apply

What GCSEs have you got, and have you applied yet? If not, why not? Big recruitment drive on at the moment.

[RG56]

My GCSEs are maths,English,engineer science,physics and geography all at grade c and I've just applied as a weapons technician and I have my aptitude test on the 20th so hopefully I pass:ok:

[jonw66]

Are you going on to A levels it is essential for what you are trying to do.
Have you joined the Air Training Corp you need as many feathers in your cap as you can.
People on here will give you good advice but you should know most of it if you are serious.
Best
John

[Pontius Navigator]

A-levels for a commission and grade B maths for pilot IIRC.

[NutLoose]

Rg56 good luck with the tests and fingers crossed for you, I was a Engine tech during my career, which I carried on when I left to become a full licensed engineer.. I also know armourers that also made the transition to the civil aircraft trades, engine / airframe etc..

You get out of the military what you put in to it and it's an enjoyable life :)

[longer ron]

I had several SENGOS who wore pilot's wings which I believe was a similar scheme. In fact I believe I'm correct in saying there were a handful of docs at the IAM who were trained as pilots to fly the Hunter T7.

Yes we had a Jengo at cottesmore circa 1972 who had done the wings course,I believe he was 'in charge' of the canberra servicing hangar (the hangar warrant officer used to call him 'my boy' ).
The Sengo was an ex brat who was a right miserable tw@t (unusual - as ex brats usually had a SOH ).

[Yozzer]

If you have the education requirements for the job you want, then do not acept second best by applying for use as a stepping stone. Even if not succesfull at OASC, you will have experienced the culture shock of the OASC process and be under no doubt where areas for improvement lay for a second attempt. More importantly; if you have done the homework necessary for OASC to meet expectations, you may well get the key to the career that you seek. You do have to be 17.5 years on entry for WSOp.

The danger is that you train to be a techie and said trade becomes a pinch trade that the RAF are undermanned. You then become a victim of your own success and find it difficult to leave because the system wants to retain you where you are.

The optimal answer to your situation has to be 'Go for gold' with the Techie route as a productive alternative. If I maybe blunt for a moment; 5xGCSE albeit good ones, is the baseline. Two years in sixth form and an A Level or two changes your options significantly. At 16 years, two years of further education can and probably does sound like a life sentence, but in the big scheme of things it could well be the best thing you ever did.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Might be worth asking if they are still running the 6th form scholarship scheme. That was where I got my first taste of OASC and found where my strengths and weaknesses were in the aircrew selection arena.
Also for your A levels you might want to think about Wellbeck College.

[Pontius Navigator]

As the OP is in Scotland, look at Queen Victoria School, Dunblane.
http://www.qvs.org.uk/

[oldmansquipper]

It is clearly possible to cross the divide, but it is not easy.. there are many ex ground bods who have done it...several reaching the exalted level of `Airship`(see above)

A word of warning, however, with the demise of Tornado "within a few years" (actual date dependent on the latest oops! oh dear another clusterf*k life extension) there will not be a two seat fast jet in service. This will surely hamper converting Weapons Techs as they must go round in pairs - one who can read and one who can do the joindey-up writing. :)

Nonetheless - good luck with your endeavors and joining the RAF Gliding & Soaring Association (or a RAF power flying club if you must)and learning how to fly WILL help I`m sure. For trainees, there are active gliding clubs at Cosford, Halton and Cranwell :ok:

[downsizer]

My GCSEs are maths,English,engineer science,physics and geography all at grade c and I've just applied as a weapons technician and I have my aptitude test on the 20th so hopefully I pass:ok:

English Lang?

I know personally know plenty of armourers who have gone NCA Aircrew or WSOp as it is called today.

The way I see it you have 2 options.

Get in as an armourer and do all you can do further your knowledge of WSOp so when you hit the AFCO for WSOp Filter Int and then OASC you'll have it nailed. Use this time to make sure you have the exact educational requirements. I've never known a serving airman in the current climate to be refused a crack at OASC.

Or

Use the next 2 years or so till your eligible to apply to get some life experience and then apply as a DE WSOp.

[Ivan Rogov]

Hi RG56, you seem to have a fairly decent plan but there will be huge distractions. The system for re-mustering these days is very good and gives you a fair chance (unlike the old days when the Station Board had a say!).

Once you're in there will be lots of training (even Armourers are trained, apparently :E), beer, after that a posting to somewhere, beer, more training, exercises, beer, deployments, guard duty, beer, rent a crowd, beer, random deployments i.e: Bailing out the government for anything, beer, more random stuff, beer, more training, beer, Adeventure Training, beer, Force Development, beer, next posting to somewhere new, beer, more training, beer, etc.

If you are serious about making it to NCA you will need to remain focused on your goal, get the qualifications you need and apply as soon as possible, don't keep saying 'I'm busy at the moment I'll do it next year' otherwise you won't make it. Use the excellent Education facilities the RAF has and let your line mangers know what you want to do once you are posted, they should fully support you, if they are not don't worry you will have a career manager on Station who will be able to help, and hopefully sort out your line manager too!

Good luck, keep your eyes on the prize :ok:

[Yellow Sun]

O-P wrote:

Air Marshal Cliff Spink didn't do that badly.

Cliff Spink, in common with many others, proceeded more or less directly from Apprentice Training at Halton to becoming an Flight Cadet at Cranwell. They joined in the technical trades but never served any significant time in them.

Halton; or Locking; to Cranwell was a route that served the RAF well, providing a good many high fliers.

YS

[oldmansquipper]

..is that some sort of posh `ammer? :)

If so, the lad seems to be headed the right way, him becoming a plumber and all that!

;);)