The Dambusters sinking of Tirpitz on Channel 4 now

[NutLoose]

Just a heads up

On Channel 4 (135) plus 1 at 8.00pm

[BEagle]

Head! Who said head? I'll take some of that.....

A good programme though!

[1.3VStall]

Six foot seven did not sink the Tirpitz: IX(B) Sqn did!

The junior squadron is still telling lies over 70 years after the event.

[Hempy]

Six foot seven did not sink the Tirpitz: IX(B) Sqn did!

The junior squadron is still telling lies over 70 years after the event.


No one will ever know the true answer to that one.

[Wensleydale]

...and very few people even acknowledge Lancaster PD329 from 463 Sqn RAAF, that filmed the event. The Buckham crew remained overhead to film the ship rolling over: the aircraft then went back to Waddington, rather than Lossie, to get the film developed quickly. They were airborne for 13 Hrs 40 minutes which is believed to be the longest duration operational sortie flown by Bomber Command during the war.




463 Sqn was the home of the 5 Gp Film Unit and had 3 specially adapted Lancasters which carried additional film camera positions. Much of the film taken of Bomber Command during the war came from these aircraft. The photograph shows the pilot, Bruce Buckham, taken on 18th April 1944 during his first tour on 463 Sqn - here flying his crew's usual Lancaster, ME701 JO-F "Whoa Bessie". The aircraft's name came from the tail gunners shouts during the landing run. The crew volunteered for their second tour on the film unit immediately after their first in order to stay together on the Squadron.


http://www.460squadronraaf.com/images/noseart02.jpg

[Wander00]

I know of at least one longer sortie but not in Bomber Command. The then Flt Lt Ted Hawkins won his first DFC for a 23 1/2 (how do you do a "half" on here) flight to near the Arctic Circle in a Catalina. (Second DFC for sinking an Italian submarine)

[just another jocky]

Six foot seven did not sink the Tirpitz: IX(B) Sqn did!

The junior squadron is still telling lies over 70 years after the event.

Hempy is right you know.

Did IX have the precision bombing sights that 617 did? I didn't think they did, I thought only 617 had them due to their precision bombing role.

Also, I have met and spoken to a 617 rear gunner who saw the ship rolling before IX even arrived over target. Maybe he was lying.

So, evidence from both sides of the argument (sorry, what is your evidence?) which probably means the truth will never be known for sure.

[binbrook]

When I was a lad I was told that IX(B) crews preferred, and continued to use, the Mk IX bombsight for precision attacks. Presumably they used it for the Tirpitz. Cue someone who has the books or can remember all about visual bombsights.

[Courtney Mil]

All the wonderful squadron rivalry and great banter aside, I've never been convinced that the sinking of the Tirpitz could ever be attributed to either squadron. Or, indeed, totally to that final raid. It seems more likely to my simple mind that that the cumulative damage to her since the RAF took over the mission from the RN (around September 44?) all had a significant part to play - I could even go so far as to say that the 12 November raid may not have succeeded at all without the previous ones.

It is entirely possible that even some of the Tallboys that missed the ship played an important role in the final success, by undermining the artificial sandbar that was propping her up. I guess the claims tend to focus on the the two bombs that hit her and exploded, but would she had capsized had the other bombs had not played their part?

[Wensleydale]

Part of the sortie report in the 463 Sqn ORB, describing the attack as seen from Bruce Buckham's Lancaster....







The leader led the Force aft and excellent bombing runs were obtained, coming in from stern and bow.. Early bombs slightly overshot, but approximately the fourth bomb was a direct hit amidships. As the attack developed more hits were obtained on the stern, amidships, and finally on the bow until the Target apparently could no longer fire any of her guns. There were also several near misses. Quite suddenly, after the attack ended, the Target was seen to heel over towards the island, and become half submerged.

[ICM]

Courtney: Bomber Command Halifax and Stirling squadrons made attacks on the Tirpitz as far back as January 1942; Halifax and Lancaster units made three further attempts in March and April. The remnants of one of the Halifaxes shot down was recovered from a fjord some years ago and is on display at the RAF Museum, Hendon.

Info on these raids can be found, starting here:

Raids on Tirpitz Spring 1942 (http://www.archieraf.co.uk/archie/raidsontirpitzspring1942.html)

[DaveUnwin]

I interviewed Squadron Leader Bill Williams (who led IX squadron that day, as the CO's aircraft went u/s) for a magazine article in 1994. He told me that as he commenced his bomb run he clearly saw the first four bombs falling from 617's Lancs, and that the fourth was a direct hit amidships, which instantly caused all the ship's AA guns to stop firing. I clearly remember he grinned as he told me this, as up until that moment the Tirpitz had been putting up, as he put it "a very heavy flak barrage.".
He was awarded an immediate DFC, and was interviewed on BBC radio by Ed Morrow. He gave me the impression that - as far as he was concerned -they'd ALL sunk it.

[just another jocky]

He gave me the impression that - as far as he was concerned -they'd ALL sunk it.


Perhaps that it the way it should be remembered.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Think it's more the fact the dead dog Sqn claim the bragging rights and don't always acknowledge they had any help, rather than the actual pi$$ing contest of who's bomb sunk the boat.

[just another jocky]

Not in my experience Fluffy.....it's always IX who claim it, dismissing those ahead with the better bomb sights.


Funny how different perspectives lead to such different views.

[Hempy]

I'm not sure if it's a pissing contest. The Tirpitz was hit by two bombs in the final raid, the one that did the 'damage' no one will ever know. 9 Squadron seem to think that they have comeuppance based on one authors claim..

Despite both squadrons claiming that it was their bombs that actually sank the Tirpitz, it was the Tallboy bomb, dropped from a No. 9 Sqn Lancaster WS-Y (LM220) piloted by Flying Officer Dougie Tweddle that is attributed to the sinking of the warship. F/O Tweddle was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for his part in the operations against the Tirpitz.

but, as I've said, two bombs hit it

A force of 32 Lancasters from Nos. 9 and 617 Squadrons dropped 29 Tallboys on the ship, with two direct hits and one near miss. Several other bombs landed within the anti-torpedo net barrier and caused significant cratering of the seabed; this removed much of the sandbank that had been constructed to prevent the ship from capsizing. One bomb penetrated the ship's deck between turrets Anton and Bruno but failed to explode. A second hit amidships between the aircraft catapult and the funnel and caused severe damage. A very large hole was blown into the ship's side and bottom; the entire section of belt armour abreast of the bomb hit was completely destroyed. A third bomb may have struck the ship on the port side of turret Caesar.

No one will ever know

[Courtney Mil]

No one will ever know

And long may it remain that way. Unless anyone here wants to break the news to the descendants of former 617 or 9 Sqn crews that their dads didn't do so well on that day after all. They all played their part and, as I said earlier, it is likely that those on previous raids did too. And, quite possibly, those that dropped bombs that didn't actually hit the big boat.

[Wensleydale]

Wrong Hempy - as stated above, a force of 33 Lancasters from IX, 617 and 463 took part in the raid!!

[3 bladed beast]

And let's not forget the 'possible' help of the English sympathiser who was manning the German radar that day!!!

This was a fantastic documentary and quite emotional at the end.

These guys were heroes and amazingly brave - RIP.

[Hempy]

Ok wensleydale, I'm 'wrong'. You tell us all, seeing as you seem to know all the facts. Which aircraft from which squadron 'sank' the Tirpitz??

[3 bladed beast]

I think they all contributed - isn't that the point?

Not just the direct hits, but everything from start to finish alongside the 'misses' which also had a monumental impact in the sinking?

Wonder if the Dambusters argued like this?

[Hempy]

aka my original statement 'no one will ever know'.

And that's the point. She went down thanks to a number of crews and attacks. One individual or one squadron might claim the glory, but the reality is that it was a team effort.

[3 bladed beast]

Hempy!

I'm with you mate!! ( although, re-reading my reply above, it's not clear!)

A great team effort, showing what can be done with bravery, determination and a sense of 'going into the unknown'!

The documentary was superb throughout - well worth a re watch!

Or maybe people will be too busy watching the Kardashians etc!!