Qantas Engineering tech training disgusting new low

[Bootstrap1]

For those that don't know, with the lack of aircraft type training going on there is a growing number of LAMEs opting to pay for their own training in hope of some extra job security. Nothing new here

What is new is that the low life that is the manager of the tech school has decided to rent out a room in the school to Queensland aerospace to run a 738 course for mainly QF LAMEs. And the company is supposedly giving them access to an aircraft for the practical component.

I know paying for your own training is not new but having the school conspire in this way is a kick in the guts to all LAMEs.

[IAW]

Sounds like a reasonable arrangement to me. Access to aircraft for POC can be hard for some approved training providers. The more assistance the airlines provide, the faster people will get the rating.

The old way of filling out a SOE book and doing an in depth course run by the manufacturer is dead and buried. It produced a higher quality of LAME to be sure, but it is gone and not coming back.

So embrace the new way: dig your next rating out of a cornflakes packet and hopefully one day an airline will even pay you for it!

[busdriver007]

World's Best Practice! And the regulator is where? Striving to be average won't stop until there is a loud noise.

[bazza stub]

Agree 100% busdriver!

The regulator can't do anything though until a law has been broken (and then it's usually bugger all) and I don't believe one has.

IAW I hope you are taking the piss, god help us if you're not.

[600ft-lb]

Having participated in extra long courses of days gone by with a SOE book spending over a year to fill it out, a not so long course with PCT and an even shorter course with POC my point of view is as follows.

The long course was painful. I don't care about the internals of every single LRU fitted to the aircraft and I certainly don't remember. The SOE book catered for the area in which you filled it out. A SOE book filled out in line was useless in heavy and vice versa. Only looking back now having done PCT does it seem like a very poor option.

Medium length course and PCT provided the best teacher/student ratio covering the everything I feel I need to know in the right amount of depth, I actually felt quite confident certifying and working safely around the aircraft in various stages of maintenance.

Short course and POC, bare bones course touching on the high points only and the POC felt rushed through no fault of the provider, but the limited access to aircraft.

In my own opinion, industry/airlines have it in their own best interest to facilitate access to aircraft for a substantial amount of time to private training providers if they choose to not train their own staff. Not everyone is fortunate enough these days to a) be employed and b) get the best training offered to them through their employment. After all, these guys will probably be working on either Qantas or Virgin's aircraft one day, it'd be good if their training was as good as it could be given the fact that most people can't be in full time training for 3 months at a time.

Besides, there's no point blaming the player for playing the game, blame the body who sets the rules of the game if you've got a problem.

[witwiw]

Well, from the perspective of a pilot who worked for a 737 operator in remote parts of the Pacific, far and above the best LAMES to have around to fix problems were those who'd done it the "long" way. Their depth of knowledge, their lateral thinking towards a resolution and their resourcefulness generally left those who had done their training in a "shorter" form scratching their heads in disbelief at their lack of knowledge despite being licensed and qualified.

Likewise my own training, the old "chalk and talk" was so superior to current CBT's with multiple choice answers and left me in a better position when things went pear shaped than those denied that opportunity. Not that I had all the answers, far from it, but I at least had some whereas my offsiders were often left "scratching their heads in disbelief at their lack of knowledge despite being licensed and qualified". "Long" course painful, yes, but worth it 'cos it was usually imparted by those with shop floor experience and of whom you could ask questions and get meaningful, knowledgable answers. Try that with a computer.

But I live in the past and now the $$$$$'s rule - and that's why we find ourselves where we are today. What was the title of an old British comedy? Ah, yes, "Never mind the quality, feel the width"!!!!

[doug606]

:ugh: what you have said is dumb

[Bootstrap1]

Thank you for your feedback doug. It is duly noted and filed in the round filing cabinet.

[bazza stub]

Care to elaborate doug606? It seems reasonable to dislike the way QF are doing things these days.

[doug606]

What should the company have done instead? The training would have happened anyway without the training schools help.

Location is likely easier for the qf guys. The situation is created by company not wanting more LAMEs but workers going and getting there own license anyway.

[Bootstrap1]

QF are giving false hope. Fair enough that many have and will continue to pay for their own training.
But now QF have blurred the line by having a third party provider inside their own establishment training QF staff, doing the Prac on a QF plane but then at the end of the day saying no sorry we don't need your licence.

It should be kept at arms length. Either endorse third party training and recognise the time and money spent or keep them out of the QF training school. This is QF having their cake and eating it too.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

It is unfortunate that we are now in a race to the bottom, having to now go out and buy our own courses.
I have to be frank, and I know from personal experience as I am guilty of paying for and sitting one, the licences gained by doing a QAC course at Wooloowin can only be described as the corn-flake packet type. How on earth this mob survived CASA audits is beyond me but when I asked how they did when half way through the one I sat, they assured me they passed with flying colours.
If this is the way we have to now go, I guess if you have it conducted at a reasonable facility near easily accessible aircraft instead of what is an equivalent to an isolated tin shed in a backwater suburb, so be it.
IT STILL FREAKING STINKS.

I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[CoolB1Banana]

I've done a type course with this mob. The quality of the training was rubbish and you would have to be retarded not to pass with the exam previews they give. God help anyone that gets their first licence that way. It's a means to an end unfortunately. I'm no longer a "legacy LAME" and I can still pay my mortgage. When I'm in a delay and don't have the answers, they can wait while I look up the manual. QF get what they pay for.

[Ngineer]

If people have a problem with it then don't participate. Plain and simple.


Seems to me the people funding this are mostly QF LAME's, so why blame the company? If they choose to make a buck out of it, and people are happy enough to pay, then good on them.


And will these licences ever be used???? Seems like money well spent, not!


We have finally found a way to train LAME's on type without costing the company a single cent, in fact they make money out of it!!!! MH would be rolling in laughter if he were still around. No shift penalties paid, no instructors to employ, no text or computers to foot the bill for, just a few $$$ revenue made for the facilities and get the staff to foot the bill.


My mind boggles at how these Licences could be utilised as it appears to go against all award conditions.

[domo]

And will these licences ever be used???? Seems like money well spent, not!

Well they turned on mine and many more. In cabin interiors they turned on 5 A330 and 12 737 licences, All people who hold new gen licences from Queensland Aerospace external training are now Qantas licenced in cabin interior

[Bumpfoh]

I've done a type course with this mob. The quality of the training was rubbish and you would have to be retarded not to pass with the exam previews they give

Tend to disagree with this, it's up to the individual to pay attention and/or read the text to get an understanding of the systems information if the instruction is lacking, it's not unique to QAC on that front.
Had a few QF instructors I wouldn't trust with teaching me about lawn mower maintenance over the journey.
If you're relying on the review to pass an exam then you yourself are part of the CASA/industry induced problem.

God help anyone that gets their first licence that way. It's a means to an end unfortunately

A statement that was flagged many years ago by industry representatives that went largely un-heeded and now the chickens are coming home to roost.:ugh:

When I'm in a delay and don't have the answers, they can wait while I look up the manual.

Couldn't agree more. Part of their MERBS and due process isn't it?

If people have a problem with it then don't participate. Plain and simple.
Seems to me the people funding this are mostly QF LAME's, so why blame the company? If they choose to make a buck out of it, and people are silly enough to pay, then good on them.


Ngineer also agreed, it's an unfortunate element of business these days.

[Gas Bags]

There is another side to this coin.

Without external training providers like QAC all of us are at the mercy of our employer to receive the privilege of type training. When at their mercy and if your face does not fit your career is in the toilet.

I have done a QAC type course and I agree you get what you want out of the training they provide. For me they were fine. Who needs to spend hours going over the inner workings of a hydraulic valve. That is what basics are for.

QF assisting with a training room and access to an aircraft is not the end of the world.

[cocobananas]

I have had both internal and external training to Qantas. I was very happy with both. Some instructors are better than others much like some LAMEs are better than others.

QAC have provided a lot of guys with opportunities they most certainly would not have been given by Qantas.

Qantas is a business and to their credit have recognized the use to the business of some of these externally trained people with their newly gained qualifications.......surely this is a positive from Qantas.

I take my hat off to all the guys who have taken the bull by the horns and invested in themselves by way of external type courses. I am sure these individuals are grateful to QAC (as I am) for providing the training.

Smart people will be proactive, investing time and money in their greatest asset, i.e. themselves. Others will continue to wallow in mediocrity and cry fowl, unwilling to spend a cent on their careers to better themselves, becoming more educated and qualified in their chosen field. If they aren't willing to invest their own resources into themselves..........then why the hell should anyone else??!!!!

[Hugh Mungous]

As a Qf LAME, I often wonder where we'd be if our remuneration wasn't directly tied to Type Training and Type Licenses but some other measure or payment structure. Interested to hear comments.

[Arnold E]

As a Qf LAME, I often wonder where we'd be if our remuneration wasn't directly tied to Type Training and Type Licenses but some other measure or payment structure. Interested to hear comments.

I am curious as to what you mean by this?
Do you mean that you wonder what it would be like if you were in GA like most of us? I mean, we have to have all the licences just to survive. What exactly o you mean?:confused:

[600ft-lb]

There would be no disincentive from the company to train everyone on everything because there's the wage bill doesn't go up as a result. All the acrimony over training slots would be gone, all the crap everyone has to go through in the fallout of training selections. The taking up of union time in following up on those issues.

There wouldn't be a sly reason for a manager to punish someone who made a them angry or look stupid once upon a time - and we all work with people who has been punished by never receiving training ever again. In fact I dare say that is endemic within Qantas.

Just a few thoughts.

[Ngineer]

Good for you Domo (and the others), but considering how many have completed the training then those odds aren't too spectacular. There are a lot of new A330 and B738 licences that haven't been placed on Eq.

[domo]

As a Qf LAME, I often wonder where we'd be if our remuneration wasn't directly tied to Type Training and Type Licenses but some other measure or payment structure. Interested to hear comments Often wondered that myself. Say a lame pay was ten bucks a week more than an ame who would take the extra responsibility, a few would but I think they be scratching for lames, the joke is Qantas spent all this money on an "A" licence program when lames would use a "B" licence obtained by the lame for free due to pay level lock out

[domo]

Some SAM boys and girls have been turned on to back fill the cabo's, this 737 reconfig in syd project would never have gone ahead if not for free to the company external gained licences, enough work to keep 55 people employed for a year.

[Bootstrap1]

That is a good thing domo. Any extra work for Sydney is a huge bonus.

[KrispyKreme]

More to the question, what happens at the end of the reconfig? Are we going to have too many licences?

[domo]

Same number of lames, more licences available

[Pterois Volitans]

I certainly would not be worried about the Cat "A" guys causing any concerns in the near future. From what I hear it is taking up to 1.5 years to complete their OJT book. On top of that QF quality is taking 4/5 months to even look at the book. Add on that the tier 2 syllabus, has not even been approved by CASA and you are looking at a long time before any of them start signing a CRS.


As to paying for your own type course, I certainly have not got a problem with that, and have done so. Yes QAC has some grey areas when it comes to course content, but you get out of a study what you put in!!! If you look outside aviation there is not many companies that you get "paid to train" they want you trained and ready to go.

[CoolB1Banana]

Are there any AMEs that have had external type training recognised lately?

What about the 380 SuperLAMEs that have trained themselves up on the 738? It doesn't seem fair that there's a type in the fleet that they're not licenced on.

[Gas Bags]

Aren't you the negative nancy cool 1...

Maybe time to fly the coop and flap those little wings young fella. From your lofted aviation view you must have a fantastic view of that oh so green grass!!

[CoolB1Banana]

Merely a question.

[CoolB1Banana]

How long before QAC offer 787 training. Maybe we can sell them the training school.

[Nassensteins Monster]

you won't have long to wait: QAC instructors are in Seattle being trained as we speak.

[Engineer_aus]

Is Harry there in Seattle? Then we would get a cracker of a course.

[howyoulikethat]

Heard on the grapevine $18k if ya wanna seat,POC done by JQ!

[The Big E]

Are we going to have too many licences?

From an outsider's view, I would doubt it. After 55 years in Industry I have never worked in an Organisation where there have been too many Licences.

One only has to look at the state of the AMEL coverage in GA to verify that there is no excess.

Chin up, and Heads held high ya all :ok:.

Regards, TBE.