Does anyone know where I can do a MMC course?

[vhxxxx]

Looking to do an MCC course by September under the new Part 61 rules. Is there any provider that is CASA approved to do this course as yet ??

[kingRB]

Let me google that for you (http://bfy.tw/15zc)

[drpixie]

Try Multicrew Airline Training Systems (http://www.multicrewtraining.com/), I know one of the principles and I'd be speaking to him if I were in your shoes.

It's a substantial course - but I guess if you have need of the qualification, it will be worth it.

[vhxxxx]

Thanks, are Multi crew airline training systems CASA approved under Part 61? Where are they based ? There is a provider for MCC courses advertising starting dates in September all over Australia, but as yet they arent CASA approved as far as I am aware.

[vhxxxx]

Thanks click. You're really helpful.

[TOGA Flex]

Will be initially BRIS ONLY, expect a cost of $5-7 K. Staff training & sim sorted just approval by CASA hangs in balance.

[601]

Their website specifically states they're Part 61 approved, and located in Brisbane. Would you like anything else?

Well at least the OP is learning how to ask questions in a MC environment.

[Arm out the window]

:D Good one, 601!

[Judd]

Quote: "It's a substantial course" Unquote


At close to $9000, it sure needs to be a substantial course. The MCC course is over two weeks which includes 28 hours in a fixed base 737 NG simulator; plus several classroom days of 737 technical lectures for those unfamiliar with the 737 systems, and a bit of human factors already covered in CPL/ATPL subjects. Hard luck if you have never flown a 737.


And all that time and expense just to learn how to communicate with a fellow crew member? Don't forget to add two weeks or more of accommodation and food costs for interstate clients, and it all adds up.

[vhxxxx]

Ive been in contact with MATS. Yes it is a very substaintial course and appears to be well worth it. MATS only recieved CASA approval just over 1 month ago. The only other operator with CASA approval to conduct MCC is in Moorabbin I believe.Whilst the statement from TOGA FLEX in regards to CASA approval for MCC AUS may be correct, MCC AUS do not have an approved simulator in which to conduct the courses, nor do they have an approved Part 142 operators licence. They are currently advertising MCC course dates commencing September. What year?

[LeadSled]

Folks,
All in all, another financial hurdle (and boondoggle) created by CASA crushing over-regulation.
I just wonder how so many of us survived over the years, without this expensive nonsense.
Tootle pip!!
PS: 28 hours in a fixed base 737NG should take you long way to a B737 type rating???

[Ollie Onion]

I did an MCC course when they were first introduced in the UK, it was a total waste of time. They taught you a generic wishy washy set of SOP's and technical info to enable a set of staged exercises in a fixed base sim. You will learn that one pilot says gear up and the other actions it, then when you join an airline they teach you all that stuff anyway! I couldn't understand why this stuff which you have to learn anyway within your airline training system needs to be paid for at the expense of the trainee pilot. As pointed out above, it doesn't even count towards a type rating :ugh:

[LowTime]

All this despite CASA telling everyone and everything that Part 61 will not impact any further cost to the industry.

So we have one place in Australia who can now charge an absolute fortune on communication skills that are taught from day dot in any multi crew environment / operation as rightly pointed out by Ollie.

All this is for the fixed wing community. How does an MCC on an 737 help anyone who fly's multi crew helicopters here in Australia?

As far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected on this) there is no rotary wing training provider that can offer MCC for helicopters.

I still see jobs advertised, wanting the ATPL licence.

Bit hard to apply when you have all the ticks in the box re the hours but the need for an MCC and a flight test which CASA themselves cannot grant, let alone a company C & T.

It appears to me that a clear path on how to issue Fixed & Rotary ATPL's is sadly lacking and has been ever since Part 61 was introduced. All this despite the industry clearly telling CASA that neither one was ready for this debacle.. :ugh:

I won't even comment on their revised fees and charges except to say "Outrageous!!" :=

Just my 2 cents worth!!

[Tee Emm]

Anecdotally, CASA (each FOI has a different opinion) require a minimum of four simulator sessions for the MCC course. How many hours in each session is up to the provider. If the MCC training provider decides to include more sessions than the supposed minimum and the client doesn't like that he can always go elsewhere. The problem is where can he go? At the moment there are apparently only two approved MCC course providers, both charge in the region of $9000 and thus there is no competition.

I understand most of the MCC Human Factors syllabus is already covered in the ATPL and CPL Human Factors theory subjects. Is it really necessary to repeat the same subjects in the MCC course.

One approved MCC operator with a 737 FTD requires seven 4 hour simulator sessions. That is almost half required of an initial type rating. It is hard to see why this number of sessions are needed to teach the practical side of MCC. Well, in reality they are not needed. But it makes money for the provider. Again, anecdotally, the first few classroom sessions are nothing to do with MCC theory at all. They are all about looking at wall posters of the simulator cockpit and learning off by heart the position of ancillary controls, instruments, knobs and radios. In other words everything needed to fly an IFR airliner.

That means once you get into the sim with another pilot to start your 28 hours of sim sessions you don't get time to stuff around looking for the standby rudder switches and TCAS switches in a 737, Dash Eight, or an A320 FMCG or whatever the sim represents , That is because before you start playing multi crew cooperation games in an expensive simulator and using non-normals in the Saab or Dash or 737 QRH, you need to know the names of everything first and where things are in the aircraft type QRH.

Why is this so? The answer is that all the hours simulator flying (14 as PF and 14 as PM) are supposed to teach you multi crew operation like how to read a checklist and tune navaids, learn to read a QRH, talk to the cabin crew etc. This despite all this being later taught by the airline that you eventually and hopefully join in the future. It is called re-inventing the wheel. I think CASA haven't really thought this through before foisting a $9000 impost on a CPL holder. On the other hand, maybe they have...

[roundsounds]

vhxxx, why do you need to complete an MCC course?

[roundsounds]

Tee Emm, I agree. Any ethical 142 operator will incorporate the MCC in their type rating courses, you simply cannot complete a type rating without learning how a two crew operation works.

[Mach E Avelli]

Further to agreeing that north of nine grand is outrageous if the simulator time does not count towards a Type Rating, it concerns me that the people flogging MCC training may have little real world airline experience themselves.
Holding a Grade One Instructor Rating with 20,000 hours teaching basic flying skills does not necessarily translate to what is needed here. Neither does a degree in psychology make someone automatically qualified to teach MCC.

What qualifications are required for people to run these costly courses?
What are the qualifications of the CASA people who 'approve' these courses?

Before signing up for any training, caveat emptor.

[roundsounds]

Interesting that VH - xxxx is "looking to do an MCC course". Previous postings as far back as 2003 show that VH - xxxx was a pilot in 89.

I'm thinking BG has hit the nail on the head with this thread.

[Captain Sherm]

The bulk of Australia's RPT pilots progressing to an ATPL will have their requirement for MCC training met by their participation in their CAR 217 training and checking organisations programmes which are required under either CAO 82.3 or 82.5 (low or high capacity RPT) to embed such training in accordance with CAAP SMS 3.

There is no need at all for airlines to require an ATPL before hiring. Of course they may ask for you to have the subjects but there is no reason the actual test cannot be done inside their CAR 217 system when needed, i.e as you approach command or cruise relief command.

I understand CASA has been working with all the major operators to check out their own examiners to conduct ATPL tests when needed and that programme is well underway. So maybe you'll see the wording on their pilot recruitment websites change?

As for those who doubt the need for such training at all......sigh

Sherm

[Capt Fathom]

Originally Posted by Blue Goshawk
Interesting that VH - xxxx is "looking to do an MCC course". Previous postings as far back as 2003 show that VH - xxxx was a pilot in 89.

So we're thinking perhaps the aim of this thread is to advertise :confused:

[clear to land]

Interesting blurb on their website-a TRI or TRE doesn't know how to do MCC Training. Really-I wonder what they think we do here at EK (and EY, QR etc also) with 100+ nationalities in the cockpit, very diverse backgrounds and experience range from Cadets to DEC. If you put something like that in writing you better be able to back it up. They are -at best- been disingenuous with the truth. It would also indicate that they have minimal experience in a real Multi Crew environment.

[roundsounds]

The entire MCC is a scam. You only need the qualification to act as a crew member in a multi-crew operation. Multi-crew type rated aircraft require an approved course of instruction, this course must address multi-crew training specific to the type, otherwise the course will not meet the MOS competency requirements. I'm confident, that in time, people will wake up to this fact and the stand alone MCC will disappear. It's a bit like airlines not thinking through the career path of new intake First Officers, by expecting them to hold an ATPL as an entry requirement. All they need is ATPL subjects, the type rating flight test (with minor tweaking) will satisfy the ATPL flight test. In fact, it would make more sense to complete the ATPL flight test after a period of participation in the airline recurrent training program. Under ICAO recommendations the ATPL is intended for use in multi-crew operations, so why would you go to the expense to gain the qualification if you're flying a Baron, PC12 or C208? The industry needs to stand back and look at the big picture with reference to Part 61 regs.

[Captain Sherm]

That is the whole point. MCC is a course designed to prepare for multi crew multi engine turbine IFR operations. For some reason some see the ATPL as a "start of career" qualification rather than a pre-command licence. The Part 61 Manual of Standards prescribes a set of competencies etc in Multi Crew Operations and Non-Technical Skills. For some years RPT operators in Australia have been required to integrate such competencies into their induction, training and checking processes and manuals.

So there's no reason for the requirement to hold the ATPL before hiring unless you're being hired as a Direct Entry Captain.

Off-shore operators may require an ATPL before hiring. That's an issue for the applicant to do the cost-benefit on as many have done before them. I suppose it is hardly likely that operators will happily offer their simulators and checkers to give out ATPL tests when they know the candidate will head offshore as soon as they get the licence.

As for those who want their ATPL with no MCC training and no flight test.....what else do you want without a tests or training? A Science degree? Drivers licence?

Sherm

[vhxxxx]

Why do I have to do an MCC course? The object of my post was to stimulate discussion about the new Part 61 licencing requirements for an ATPL applicant. The new regs will be implimented in 3 weeks time and as far as I can ascertain there are only 2 CASA approved MCC providers. I could have posted another question. Where can I undertake an ATPL flight test? Apart from doing it with a CASA delegate , I believe there is only one independantly approved testing officer at present. And the test is conducted in a B737 simulator. The costs incurred now for the new up and coming pilots in Australia are becoming astronomical thanks to the new Part 61. I stand corrected here, but do new applicants for the major airlines in Australia require the applicant to already hold an ATPL? what about the Rex or Cobham ? Not only does the applicant for an ATPL now require an MCC course, this requirement also includes an oversees applicant who may already possess several thousand hours multi crew time and who want their overseas licence recognised. And No, sorry, Im not affiliated with any MCC training providers.

[M61A1]

I understand there are only 2 approved organizations. Your comments are interesting. However, the MCC has been a mandatory requirement for the ATPL since implementation (Part 61 MOS) on September 1st 2014. You mention September 1st 2015 as the implementation date which is incorrect. This was an extension by CASA to enable pilots holding some or all of ATPL subjects to apply for the the ATPL, without having to conduct an MCC Course if they were already operating in that capacity on a multi crew airplane. September 1st 2015 game over.

[M61A1]

Concerning Rotary Wing RW MCC / ATPL. In the legislation there is no distinction between RW and FW as Part 61 refers to generic simulation to conduct HF and NTS. The platform to conduct the simulation has to be an approved flight training device by CASA. There are only 3 in existence apart from the Level D Full Flight Simulators operated by the Airlines Boeing and Ansett. CASA have no come to grips with Simulation under Part 60. The RW ATPL flight test can be done on the aircraft type a pilot is rated on. Cost is outrageous? Depends! What is the cost of the simulator, the Instructors and infrastructure to conduct MCC? CASA made the rules.
See Hansard dated 28th May Senate Enquiry and cross examination of Skidmore and Crothswaite (licencing) by Senators Xenephon and Sterle re MCC and costs!! Pages 1-16. It is an eye opener

[Judd]

The entire MCC is a scam. You only need the qualification to act as a crew member in a multi-crew operation. Multi-crew type rated aircraft require an approved course of instruction, this course must address multi-crew training specific to the type, otherwise the course will not meet the MOS competency requirements. I'm confident, that in time, people will wake up to this fact and the stand alone MCC will disappear


Many will agree with that comment although it is a courageous assumption that the stand-alone MCC will disappear. After all, you are dealing with CASA with all that implies.
Reports indicate the two current CASA approved MCC providers are charging circa $9000. Hopefully that may change as other potential providers frantically hit their keyboards to provide urgently needed competition. One provider uses a 737 NG fixed based simulator for its 28 hours of MCC training. It might be worth putting a case to CASA for credits for anyone buying a fair dinkum 737 type rating in future. You have to be in it to win it..