ILS Cat III on F2000

[leonard17F]

Hello fellow PPruners,

I would like to know if any of you have had the opportunity to fly Cat III ILS approaches on the F2000 ?

How does the aircraft, including the avionics and the HUD, handle these ?

Thanks a lot,
Leo

[McDoo]

Hello fellow PPruners,

I would like to know if any of you have had the opportunity to fly Cat III ILS approaches on the F2000 ?

How does the aircraft, including the avionics and the HUD, handle these ?

Thanks a lot,
Leo

Does the F2TH have autoland?

[CL300]

since it is hand flown, the outcome depends of your ability to keep the bird in the nest.. very nice, only to the very minimas in the simulator though. Always a good experience. Dispatch is easier when authorized to 200 m RVR since your alternate is an ILS Cat 1....

very conformal, it is a Falcon... :-)

[t211]

Forgive my Intrusion In all the years i had been flying Commercially i have never heard of a CAT3 Approach being flown Manual, I was cleared to CAT11 and that was a manual landing. All I can say is things have changed drasticaly

[CL300]

on the Falcon family Cat3A is HUD manual .. Cat 2 is A/P, with option on HUD for monitoring while on A/P. I am not sure if we can fly CAT 2 manual head-down..
When used to CAT3 manual it is a doodle..

I think that the Embraer or the CRJ was (is) doing it as well

[Welle]

....yes indeed, the CRJ is approved for CAT IIIa approaches - as there is no autoland, the approach and landing has to be flown manual using the HUD.
(dual IRS, HUD and dual FMS had to be installed)

The systems works quite fine, never had a problem during many low vis approaches back in my airline times..

welle

[Clandestino]

CAT IIIa capable Head-up Guidance System was certified in 1977. but there was no takers for about twenty years until Bombardier and Dassault figured out it would be cheaper to give their steed CAT IIIa capability by installing it than developing autoland for F2000/CRJ/DHC-8. In my four winters on Q400 I used ıt ın anger about 50-odd times, always successfully, which was just normal around my outfıt - no one ever had problems with adjusting to manual cat III. One just sets up everything properly and when GS captures it's just matter of keeping guidance circles perfectly concentric and speed error bar as short as possible. Everything else is monitored by F/O, head down. Provided one can see something at 50ft, flare and rollout guidance help lead to stop in predictable manner. There is also takeoff guidance that enabled us to reduce minimum takeoff RVR from 125 to 75m.

Interestingly, I used to fly A320 with CAT IIIB NO DH capability, currently fly 738 with CAT IIIA and both of them are restricted to autoland only below 200DH/550RVR.

[Denti]

I believe Boeing certified a CAT IIIa capable HGS on its 737 at the beginning of the 90ies with the first airlines equipping them around 95. Apparently the HGS is still preferred over a CAT IIIb capable autoland system in the US on the 737. Apparently they test flew Jurassic 737s with HUDs since the end of the 70s which ties in with the timeline clandestino mentioned.

The restriction clandestino mentions must be imposed either by his company or local CAA, on the 737s (CAT IIIb) i flew and the A320 i still fly, manual CAT II landings are allowed without the use of a HUD. However, autoland is preferred of course.

[leonard17F]

All,

Thanks a lot for your very valuable inputs.
I understand that on F2000, Cat IIIA/B approach is MANUAL flying using the HUD, since there is NO Autoland capability.

I also understand that on the Q400 there is a similar capability for Cat IIIA/B MANUAL flying using the HUD.

Finally, may I ask if the HUD provides a Flare cue or does it follow the ILS Glide Path until touchdown ? ("Navy" landing)
And does the Auto-throttle retard at 50ft ? (Is it flown on A/T actually ? I would think so.....)

[CL300]

Flare cue appears around 20 ft, AT shall be off before, but if you forget it goes to idle at 20 ft as well :-), since DH is 50ft, should not be an issue...

commercial brochure : https://das.falconjet.com/i/cp_files/HGS%20and%20EFVS.pdf

https://www.rockwellcollins.com/~/media/Files/Unsecure/Products/Product%20Brochures/Displays/Head%20up%20displays/HGS-3500%20White-Paper.aspx

[leonard17F]

Thanks a lot CL-300.

And I understand that the HUD CAT III capability is fully certified, correct ?

[CL300]

for about 20 years ...

[EatMyShorts!]

Just to be sure: the maximum you can get is CAT IIIa, not IIIb. It is still good enough and you will hardly use it anyways. I used to fly ERJ145 and we had an HGS, too. No auto-throttle, but we were still able to fly manual CAT IIIa approaches. We did not perform many in the end, but the training took a lot of time and once a week we had to fly a simulated CAT IIIa approach to keep up certification/currency requirements.

[CL300]

since there is a DH, it is 3A.

What matter most is accessibility when you have on box 18 , RVR 200; your CTOT is on time, more or less. And your alternate is CAT1. Training and requirements are irrelevant IMHO, when customer service and on-time delivery are a concern, everything else is just excuses.

[leonard17F]

Thanks a lot CL-300 and all.

My question reg certification was because I read somewhere that the authorities expressed some concerns with the performance of the HUD (blinding phenomenons, etc...) and they may even have downgraded it or suspended it.

[FlightDetent]

Interestingly, I used to fly A320 with CAT IIIB NO DH capability, currently fly 738 with CAT IIIA and both of them are restricted to autoland only below 200DH/550RVR. What about CAT II manual landing with 350m RVR, is/was that an option?

Regards,
FD

[CL300]

@Leonard17F EFVS ( FLIR) yes, but HUD haven't heard about it.

[canbra]

since there is a DH, it is 3A.

Hi there,

Are you sure about that? I came across SFO RWY 28 ILS CAT II/III plate the other day and noticed that both 3A and 3B had only RVR requirements, no DA/H.

P.S.: New user here. Not a pilot, but interested in that sort of discussion since I am an avionics guy who is trying to educate himself on that field.

[canbra]

Here, from the FAA on AC 120-28D Appdx 1:

A precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height lower
than 30m (100 ft), or no decision height and a runway visual range not less than 200m (700 ft).

So there you go.

[CL300]

In fact CAT3 are special authorizations, LOA or whatever ; the minima are listed in this LOA, so depending on plane, company, crews it may differ. ILS CAT3 minimas are therefore company specific hence the generic statement on the chart. This is my understanding of things.

on tha AWO on the EU side of pond it is more detailed then in the far/aim

[Clandestino]

What about CAT II manual landing with 350m RVR, is/was that an option?As Denti has correctly observed, restriction to autoland below CAT1 was made by operators in concert with local CAAs, based on their needs and opinions.

since there is a DH, it is 3A.Some things might have changed since I last flew 3B aeroplane but in pre-EASA Europe one could have 3B with DH less than 50 ft, which was IMHO pretty pointless as with it there just isn't enough time to avoid touch-and-go should one need to perform go-around. We got LVP approvals from every country we flew in and France was the only 3B one who restricted us to 20ft DH.

It is still good enough and you will hardly use it anyways.It depends on one's theatre of operation. One autumn day in central Europe, I shot three actual 3As in single day.

I read somewhere that the authorities expressed some concerns with the performance of the HUD (blinding phenomenons, etc...) and they may even have downgraded it or suspended it.Personally I never had any problems and never heard about downgrading of HGS capability. Planes I flew were the first ones with HGS on local registry and interestingly enough, CAA had no qualms about accepting them to be manual CAT 3A capable but they were also country's first with any kind of LVP takeoff guidance and officially recognizing we can use 75m RVR instead of traditional 125 was a bit harder.

[leonard17F]

Sorry for the confusion CL300, I meant HUD/EVS not HUD only.

[canbra]

Some things might have changed since I last flew 3B aeroplane but in pre-EASA Europe one could have 3B with DH less than 50 ft, which was IMHO pretty pointless as with it there just isn't enough time to avoid touch-and-go should one need to perform go-around. We got LVP approvals from every country we flew in and France was the only 3B one who restricted us to 20ft DH.

Nowadays, as far as I know, while EASA is still very focused on DH, the terminology the FAA (along with ICAO) is trying to use is more centered on RVR:

CAT IIIA: RVR > 700ft (200m), DH <100ft or no DH
CAT IIIB: RVR between 150ft (50m) and 700ft, DH <50ft or no DH

And then they restrict fail-passive systems (manual HUD-based or single monitored autoland, for instance) to DH >50ft.

However, the FAA also says that most OpSpecs allowing down to RVR700 can be revised to allow down to RVR600. Therefore, you can be legally authorized to perform a CAT IIIB with a fail-passive system and no rollout control-capable autoland, provided that you respect RVR600 and DH50.

Obviously, your final number is given by aircraft+operator+crew+airport combined limitations.

[leonard17F]

All,

Thanks a lot for your very valuable inputs.

So just to summarize, I understand that Cat IIIA (100 > DH > 50ft) is possible with HUD+ EVS MANUAL Flying. You do NOT need AutoLand capability (contrary to Cat IIIB).

We are still having a heated debate here, with some guys defending the opposite ("Autoland is a Must for Cat III -A or B").

[G280]

Leonard,

How about making a suggestion to Gulfstream for software 3.6 release? ;)

[CL300]

you do not need EVS for Cat3B manual, just the HUD.

A/C with M3227 or SB F2000EX-232
OPS: P/N 9801-5150-007 OPC: P/N 9801-5640-013
Automatic CAT II ILS approach monitored with HUD
Manual CAT II and CAT III ILS approaches flown using the HUD (respectively referred to as HUD 2 and HUD 3)
NOTES :
1. THE EFVS IMAGE SHALL NOT BE DISPLAYED IN THE HUD WHEN PERFORMING CAT II OR CAT III ILS APPROACHES (AS PER AFM SUPPLEMENT 1A LIMITATION)


The Head up Guidance System is certified for use in Category II / III manual approaches within the following limits:
GENERAL
- Maximum runway elevation................................................... ................................................. 2,376 ft
- Minimum height above runway threshold for AP disengagement .............................................. 500 ft
- Maximum headwind component................................................... .............................................. 25 kt
- Maximum tailwind component ............................................................ ........................................ 10 kt
- Maximum crosswind component ............................................................ .................................... 15 kt
- Runway length ............................................................ ....................... Between 5,000 ft and 15,000 ft
- Autothrottle may remain connected until touchdown.
- Airbrakes must not be extended during the approach.
LANDING CONFIGURATION
- Gear down, - SF3.
MINIMUM CREW
- 2 pilots with qualification according to operational rules.
MINIMUM EQUIPMENT LIST
The following equipments must be in proper operating condition:
- Head Up Guidance System including:
- HGScomputer,
- HGSoverheadunit, - HGScombiner.
- 2 PDU (Primary Display Units) on LH and RH side, with ADI and HSI,
- 1 FMS (Flight Management System) on LH side,
- 2 IRS (Inertial Reference System), one set on the LH side, the other one set on the RH side,
- 1 AFCS (Automatic Flight Control System),


LIMITATIONS (APPLICABLE TO ALL A/C)



NOTE
Compliance with the certification standards does not constitute an approval to conduct Category II or III operations. Such authorization must be obtained by the operator from the appropriate authorities.
A/C with M2557 or M2752 or M3226 and without M2846
DGT88898 FOR TRAINING PURPOSES ONLY EASA APPROVED
DASSAULT AVIATION Proprietary Data
Part 2
SUPPLEMENT 1
ROCKWELL COLLINS HEAD UP GUIDANCE SYSTEM Manual Cat. II / III approach

F2000EX Airplane Flight Manual

PAGE 2 / 10
Issue 2
- 2 ILS receivers,
- 2 radioaltimeters,
- 1 TAWS (Terrain Awareness Warning System) with radioaltitude call out,
- 2 ADS (Air Data System),
- 1 SFD (Secondary Flight Display),
- 2 operating engines,
- Both hydraulic systems,
- All primary flight controls except Yaw Damper.
IRREGULAR TERRAIN
Some ILS facilities require specific airworthiness demonstration prior to approval of Category III minima, because the characteristics of the irregular pre-threshold terrain may cause abnormal performance in HGS control laws of Category III operations.
F2000EX EASy has not been approved for conducting those specific Category III approaches.
The Head up Guidance System is certified for use in Category II / III manual approaches within the following limits:
CATEGORY II
- Runway equipped with Category II ILS system.
- Minimum Decision Height (DH) ............................................................ ..................................... 100 ft
- Minimum Runway Visual Range (RVR)....................................................... ...............1,000 ft / 300 m
- HUD 2 capability must be displayed.
CATEGORY III
- Runway equipped with Category III ILS system.
- Minimum Decision Height (DH) ............................................................ ....................................... 50 ft
- Minimum Runway Visual Range (RVR)....................................................... ..................600 ft / 175 m
- HUD 3 capability must be displayed.

[leonard17F]

CL-300, thanks a lot !!
So on the F2000, even for Cat IIIB, you do not even need Auto-Land (nor EVS), only HUD (/HGS).... Interesting....

Does the HUD provide a flare cue at 50 ft (or at some other height) ?
And I understand that the auto-throttle needs to be engaged (in which case it should retard at 50ft).

G-280:
this mighty aircraft is not even Cat II..... to my deepest personal regret ;)

[G280]

G-280:
this mighty aircraft is not even Cat II..... to my deepest personal regret ;)

Check page 2089 of the AFM (supplements) - CATII operations. ;)

[leonard17F]

You are absolutely correct.
My mistake.
Was confused with another aircraft.....
(But your question was about Cat III correct ?) ;)

[CL300]

A/T do not need to be engaged, if engaged they can stay connected to touchdown, they will go idle at 20ft; at 50 ft the flare cue appears and gives info they are like " + " signs going upwards.