WEBF has been stitched up???

[WE Branch Fanatic]

A few weeks ago, just over two weeks ago, the 27th of May to be exact, I went a signed on the dotted line etc to join the Royal Navy. For those of you that haven't read many of my postings, I will make the following points about my background.

I have been interested in a career in the RN (as a Weapon Engineer Officer) since just before I was 14. After my GCSEs I did a BTEC National Diploma in Electrical and Electronic Engineering. Around this time I was advised that for Officer entry (into the Engineering branches) I would need to obtain a degree off my own back. This I did. In April 1999 I was advised by my then Liason Officer that I did not need to spend an extra few months to top it up to an Honours degree. In January 2000 my new Liason Officer told me that I DID need an Honours degree for commisioned entry into the WE Branch. So from September 2000 to January 2001 I did this, as this was what the Navy required.

In March 2001 I did the AIB, and failed miserably. I was advised to try joining as an Artificer. It was indicated that my qualifications would get me fast tracked through the training, and promoted extra fast. This would give me the leadership development etc I need. But when I turned up at the AFCO for the interview, I was told the doctor had examined my Optician's report and decided my eyesight was too bad for the RN. So I had to write and appeal. I then had to go to an eye consultant to get the all clear. Finally I was accepted and given an entry date: 27 May 2002.

The place where I was from February to May refused to let me have any time off until ONE WEEK from my entry date. So I had little time to prepare. My fitness programme suffered massively, and I had little time to practice and perfect the dull but important art of ironing and folding clothes.

So when I finally joined I struggled a bit. Part of it was adjusting to a new environment, and to a certain extent, a degree of homesickness. Anyway, the academics would NOT be a problem for me, neither would the naval general knowledge aspects. I did have some difficulties with some areas of the PT, particularly the shuttle run. But I was making progress. I also had some problems with drill, although from what I saw, so did everyone else. But the real problem was kit, particulary ironing, folding and stowing it correctly.

I was actually making progress in all three areas. But on Friday, I was given a warning by my Divisional Officer about physical fitness, and also kit. On Saturday I had an informal "instructional" kit muster. I should have been given a list of what was wrong and given advice, as everyone else did. But I was simply told it was sh!t and told to redo it on Monday morning. I did. Once again there was no feedback. On Tuesday evening I was given another DO's warning, restating the first one and criticising my "attitude". A few minutes later, I was given a warning by the senior DO. Amongst the points he made, he stated that I had failed all the fitness tests (not true), that my kit had not improved (it had) and that my drill had not improved (it had). Having two warnings only a few minutes apart seems to make a mockery of the warnings system, which is meant to help you. The following morning I was on my way out, and was formally discharged today.

Now lets consider....

1. I am no idiot. With my qualifications I KNOW that I could do the job, and there would be no danger of me failing the academic side of things.
2. OK, so I struggled with some of the physical side, but so did lots of other people. That's the whole point of training.
3. As I said my kit and standard of dress/smartness had improved massively by the end of week two, and was continuing to get better.
4. I told my Instructors that I was struggling with the kit, and asked for help/advice/being shown how to do it. However help was not forthcoming.
5. Again my drill was getting better. Judging by the parade exam this week, I wasn't the only one who had problems with drill.
6. The fact that I went through all the cr@p I went through to get into the RN at all shows that I had drive and commitment.
7. I'm not sure why, but the instructors gave me a harder time that anyone else. That is not just my opinion, several others pointed it out to me, including a couple of people who had spent time in the forces.
8. The amount of time I had spent getting into the RN shows that I have drive and commitment.
9. Artificers train up to HND level, I have an HND and A BSc (Hons). So I could certainly do the job.

But being able to do the job, understanding what the RN is for and what it does, abouts its ships, aircraft and weapons, and understanding many of the political and international issues affecting the RN at the moment seems to count for nothing.

I admit my kit muster was bad, but others in the squadron did even worse. But they're not getting kicked out. Ever since day one I was given extra sh!t. I got picked up on minor points that other people got away with, and got beasted more than the rest of the class.

I don't know why, but I think that someone was out to get me, and to make me fail. I don't think two weeks of bullsh!t is particularly appropriate for assessing someone's ability to do a technical job.

So nearly twelve years of effort have come to a grinding halt. I don't know if and when I could reapply, if I wanted to. Also the Reserves were mentioned. But however you try to look on the bright side, this is a disaster for me that was needless.

Advice anyone???

[Jackonicko]

Apart from your affinity for big grey boats you always seemed much too bright to be wearing dark blue! But very bad luck, all the same, and I can't help thinking that the Navy's loss may be another, more intelligent employer's gain.

Out after two weeks for physical fitness and sloppy kit/drill seems a little precipitant, if not actually barking mad - go in for some brutal self examination and try and work out why you were 'singled out' for these two formal warnings, and what lay behind the comment about your attitude. If what happened is as you describe, I am astonished, and offer the crumb that you're best off out of it. But perhaps you weren't ready or right just now? If you do reapply or indeed if you do go for another service, then take six months out doing a non-stressful job which gives you time to get physically fit and to become a demon at ironing/folding and all the other ***** which is required.

And in your case, I do wonder whether the old "be the grey man" advice might not be useful - you do seem a bit irrepressable and enthusiastic! Perhaps also you just don't 'fit' in the lower mess deck or whatever they call the enlisted ranks in the RN? Perhaps you'd have been better advised to brush up the whole leadership/maturity side outside the service you clearly love, and try to go in as a commissioned officer later.

Whatever you do, good luck. There are plenty of employers who need high calibre people - maybe you should consider the police?

Bad luck again.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

No....no...no....sounds just like a "conway".....always whineing.

If you seriously belive your "pruning" has some how led to your Naval demise then you really need to self examine! Conspiricy theory?

Bearing in mind the 3 services are V V desperate to employ, one wonders what you have to do to fail! Maybe you need to practice ironing/marching or whatever but at this time you appear to not have what HM Forces want.

Either practice your domestic and marching skills or take your talents else where. Whatever I hope you find your way in life and can put all this behind you.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[StopStart]

Sorry to hear of your troubles however I doubt there was a conspiracy nor was there a "stitch-up".

Out after 2 weeks does seem a bit harsh but then I guess there are always two sides to every story.

Unfortunately there is absolutely no excuse for turning up for training unfit. Blaming your old job for not giving the time off is a bit weak. There's always time for training - if you want to do it enough.

Like I said, out after 2 weeks is a bit harsh however I would suggest a little more introspection and slightly less conspiracy theory on your part is now the way ahead. Every pilot (pretty much) who's ever been chopped from a flying course will usually have a list of reasons why they were chopped and how it wasn't fair blah blah. At the end of the day you weren't hacking it and so were binned. Sorry. As Jacko says, take the experience and try to learn from it. If you do reapply and are re-selected then make sure you turn suitably prepared. There's more to military training than being able to wax lyrical about naval doctrine.

In answer to all your questions I have a few opinions (please don’t take my answers the wrong way – I’m just providing you with a different viewpoint not a slagging off)

1. I am no idiot. With my qualifications I KNOW that I could do the job, and there would be no danger of me failing the academic side of things.
Qualifications aren’t the be-all and end-all.

2. OK, so I struggled with some of the physical side, but so did lots of other people. That's the whole point of training.
Assuming you pitch up with a sensible degree of fitness to start with

3. As I said my kit and standard of dress/smartness had improved massively by the end of week two, and was continuing to get better.
In your opinion. Perhaps not quickly enough in their opinion.

4. I told my Instructors that I was struggling with the kit, and asked for help/advice/being shown how to do it. However help was not forthcoming.
What about the other folks on the course? Surely you went to them for help? It’s all about teamwork – us against them. That’s why DS are often complete b@5t@rds – they want you all to unite in a team against the staff. Basic stuff really

5. Again my drill was getting better. Judging by the parade exam this week, I wasn't the only onw who had problems with drill.
Okay, but perhaps those who were struggling with drill could complete the shuttle run? Perhaps this was the nail in the coffin for you?

6. The fact that I went through all the cr@p I went through to get into the RN at all shows that I had drive and commitment.
Has that drive and commitment been questioned?

7. I'm not sure why, but the instructors gave me a harder time that anyone else. That is not just my opinion, several others pointed it out to me, including a couple of people who had spent time in the forces.
Perhaps because you’re well educated? Or maybe you are just a conspiracy theorist, I don’t know. People always get singled out during training. I know I was.

8. The amount of time I had spent getting into the RN shows that I have drive and commitment.
See above

9. Artificers train up to HND level, I have an HND and A BSc (Hons). So I could certainly do the job.
I know people with all sorts of qualifications who couldn’t find their @r5e in the bath with both hands. There’s more to a job than just previous qualifications.

As the man said though, the military are crying out for people at the moment. Perhaps it's just not for you?

Again, bad luck.

PS. Ironing practice? :rolleyes:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

In fact having read this again there is even more bo@@cks here than I initially thought.

"The place where I was from February to May refused to let me have any time off until ONE WEEK from my entry date. So I had little time to prepare. My fitness programme suffered massively, and I had little time to practice and perfect the dull but important art of ironing and folding clothes"

So your previous employer worked you so hard, the hours were so long that you were incapable of getting fit or developing the required domestic skills. Horse pooh!! My daughter, at 14 can put a pretty mean crease in a shirt or trousers as can my 15 year old son when prompted and both can quite happily achieve an above average score on the beep test!

"I did have some difficulties with some areas of the PT, particularly the shuttle run. But I was making progress. I also had some problems with drill, although from what I saw, so did everyone else. But the real problem was kit, particulary ironing, folding and stowing it correctly."

I would suggest putting on a pot of coffee.....and then smelling it!

"But being able to do the job, understanding what the RN is for and what it does, abouts its ships, aircraft and weapons, and understanding many of the political and international issues affecting the RN at the moment seems to count for nothing."

"I admit my kit muster was bad, but others in the squadron did even worse. But they're not getting kicked out. Ever since day one I was given extra sh!t. I got picked up on minor points that other people got away with, and got beasted more than the rest of the class."

As regards the above two extracts if you are incapable of mananging the basic tasks that thousands of your predeccesors have managed are really surprised at the outcome?


"I don't know why, but I think that someone was out to get me, and to make me fail. I don't think two weeks of bullsh!t is particularly appropriate for assessing someone's ability to do a technical job."

However please read the above and ask yourself how paranoid is this?

I would rather brutally suggest, as would most military folks, that you just have not cut the mustard. This happens and you need to move on. As Jacko suggests maybe your talents are best emplyed elsewhere so go forth and multiply young man and consign the Navy to history.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[knobjockey]

You, my friend, are the kind of crap that we hopefully try and sift out! You are obviously unfit - even compared to the PlayStation generation! All the studying in the world does not make you gods gift to the forces! You may have the academic qualifications after years of trying......but.....

.....I have read your, educated, but historical posts over the last few months. Well, who would have guessed there would have been a Falklands war in the last hundred years!!!! Well nobody, educated anyway!

Forging things on the past is a dire mistake! Basing future procurement on the Falklands would be a dire mistake - in the next 50 years anyway!

But to get back to the point, bar trying to discredit you about defence procurement, you were nothing more than an educated spotter who had an opportunity of joining the forces.

Well, you blew it - you are not wanted, probably because you are a loser who drags the rest of you unfortunate comrades down!!! Cut you lose, they will all probably graduate with colours!!!

Sounds harsh, but you are a far to clever to$$er who needs to be brought down to earth. Go away and never post again!

[BlueEagle]

Sorry WEBF but you do sound as though you may well have been a square peg in a round hole. Anyone who, when on board the grey funnel line, can't stow their kit neatly and hygenically or run up and down companion ways without blocking other crew during alerts etc. would not be welcome, regardless of qualifications.

The whole point about the armed forces is that, in addition to knowing your stuff, you will fit into a close knit fighting team, simply knowing your stuff puts you fair and square in R & D with someone like Thornycroft or Vickers, thought about those options?

I am surprised that the day you get binned you are back on your computer! Could it be that between Feb and May, when you should have been out and about in your track suit or at a local gym getting training you were, in fact, sitting at your PC posting on PPRuNe?

The point has been made that as trainees you should help each other and not expect the DS to do more than show you anything once. I happened to be good at boots so whilst I did extra pairs my top kit brasses, (all 72 of them!), got done for me. Did you see this kind of team building going on around you? Did you pi$$ all the other lads off?

Both the items, fitness and care of kit, are easily redeemable and if you wanted to you could, but I suspect That they were not the only reasons behind your demise, you mentioned attitude!

Best of luck in whatever you do now, better to find out sooner than later what you can and cannot do, above all, when you go for interviews only blame yourself.

[brit bus driver]

Hmmm....tough titty sunshine. None of us had it easy, but that's what it's all about I suppose.

Plea: Can all the " could've, should've...bastards have got it in for me..."-types please stop posting. Maybe you should start a "losers r us" forum and leave us to get on with some real whingeing...

:D :D

[BEagle]

Some of you guys are pretty good at kicking someone when he's obviously feeling pretty down.

OK - so WEBF was unsuccessful in his attempt at the career he aspired to. For one reason or another, most of which have probably been accurately stated by StopStart. But perhaps a little more sympathy and less abuse would have been more appropriate from others.

WEBF - sorry that you were unsuccessful and I'm sure that you're pretty choked. But there must be other careers out there for someone of your background - even if you can't iron a sailor-suit quite as quickly as some, or commit sport to the same standard as even the sylph-like StopStart!

..and Stoppers, any officer suffering injury through playing Kevball should expect to get singled out! Didn't I teach you anything about standards?
Uh-oh - he's going to use the Hawaiian shirt blackmail ploy again.....

[STANDTO]

sorry to hear your news, but the forces are (still) that sort of place. With good reason to a certain extent. A degree of sh*t kicking does help a young recruit put things in perspective.
However, the most important thing is, not to dwell on this and spend the next couple of years building up to a re entry that still might not work. Life it too short for that. Sit down with a pen, paper and look at your strengths and weaknesses. Even better, do it with a mate who you know will take a subjective look at you. Once you've done that, see what job you'd fit in to and make it your future.

Life is full of disappointments. The skill is in putting them behind you

[BlueWolf]

(cracks knuckles)

Hmm. WE, a few thoughts.

Many years ago now, I missed selection for RNZAF pilot training because my eyesight wasn't up to standard.
Everything else, academics, fitness, aptitude, was fine.
It had been my life-long dream; everything I had done up to that point, school subjects, sports, the ATC, Duke of Edinburgh Awards, etc etc, had been geared to that end.
I wanted to fly fast killing machines. That's all. Nothing else was even remotely of interest.
When it didn't happen, I was more than gutted; I was lost. I went through what I now know were a number of recognisable stages; denial, anger, grief, and so on.
They offered me engineering instead. I turned it down. Looking back, that act of pique reveals to me an aspect of my - I won't say attitude - approach to things, which in hindsight leads me to wonder whether in fact I would have made the grade had I been accepted.
As things turned out, I did engineering anyway, off my own bat; worked with the military on defence engineering projects; met innumerable service people with whom I formed firm friendships - I still think they're the best people in the world.
Later, I took up flying as well, also off my own bat. So I've done many of the things I would have done had I joined the Air Force way back then. In a different way, and perhaps to a slightly different purpose; but many good things still came out of it, and in retrospect although I admit there is an element of disappointment about the past, if I had my time over I don't think I would change it.
For whatever reason, it wasn't meant to be. And the reality is that it didn't happen.
Many things have changed since then. Perfect uncorrected eyesight is no longer a prerequisite for acceptance into RNZAF pilot training. On top of that, recent political changes have meant that we no longer have an Air Combat Force.
So if I had got in back then I wouldn't be doing it now anyway; though knowing what I do about myself now, I think it quite likely that I may have got out and done something else regardless.

But I digress. WE, the reality is this.

You wanted in; you got in; now you're out, which is not what you wanted. Conclusion: at this point, you are not in.

The reasons for this may be simple, or may be many and varied; they may never be known. However, some possibilities are easier to eliminate than others.

If there is a conspiracy, reality suggests that you are never going to overcome it, so you might as well accept that fact, and go do something else.
I think it unlikely that conspiracy is the answer. If the RN didn't want you in you wouldn't have got in. I would doubt very much that "they" would bother to bring you in and then throw you out just to teach you a lesson.

If it is a question of attitude, or a difference of attitude, then history suggests quite strongly that the establishment is unlikey to change theirs before you change yours. Right or wrong, this is the way things are.

Knowing your attitude is part of knowing yourself, which sounds a bit trendy-pinko-seventies-peace-love-and-mungbeans I know, but self discovery is part of life's fascinating journey, regardless of the path of travel by which you explore it.
Know yourself, and you will know whether you have chosen the correct path.

If it's something simple like fitness or ironing, fix it, and do it again. If that's still what you want. If on the other hand you discover you don't want it anymore, then consider yourself lucky that you have discovered it sooner rather than later.

Somebody who is talented, informed, articulate, and passionate, is always going to be able to contribute. But it may be that the mechanism for their contribution turns out to not be what they had first assumed.

Maybe you can fight the system and win. Nothing is impossible. Some things, however, are improbable.

Sometimes, however hard it may be to swallow, when we disagree with people, it may not be because they are wrong.

Get drunk, my friend. Get very drunk, and very angry. Rant, rave, punch the walls and scream.
When your hangover has abated, take a good, hard, long look at what it is that you really want from life, what you want to contribute, and why. It may prove that you have missed the trees for concentrating on the wood.

People may give you a hard time in this forum. Don't take it too personally. They are straightforward, uncompromising types, which is part of what makes them so good at what they do. If this is the worst abuse you ever suffer in life you will be fortunate indeed.

Finally, remember this: the highest places are reached by the rockiest paths.

Good luck my friend, though you don't really need it. One way or another, you'll do OK.

[gijoe]

...as always in the blame culture - looking for someone else other than themselves to blame...

[WE Branch Fanatic]

A few points.....

1. Since you don't know me personally, I would prefer it if you did not label me as a "loser".
2. Prior to joining the RN, you are given a fitness programme to follow. This I did.
3. I am not a conspiracy theorist. However, I still think that I was singled out and given extra crap. Other people, including some who had been in the (other) services before, also saw this and pointed this out to me.
4. In the three areas I mention, kit, drill and physical there were people who were worse than me. I can also tell you that whenever my division was doing drill, lots of people made mistakes. This is natural, of corse, but it was me that got blamed (by the drill instructors).
5. Knobjockey I resent the allegation that I was dragging the rest of the division/class down. I was NOT, and my DO said so. I was not the only one having a few problems. On the same subject, I was helping some of my fellow trainees with the academic and technical sides of the training, which they will be examined on and some of them will get failed for.
6. Wilts......I agree, you cannot expect the instructors to show you something more than once. But that was my point, they DIDN'T show me AT ALL.
7. As for kit, the kit musters (having things folded and ironed) was the issue, not the kit I was wearing, which had improved rapidly to a point where the Chief GI was more or less happy with it.

[Jackonicko]

Blimey, thought I was being firm and harsh! Let's remember that for all his paranoia this is a young (you remember?) lad who's just suffered the worst disappointment of his life.

Brutal self assessment is hard at any age, but impossible until you reach maturity.

[solotk]

WEBF,

Sorry to hear the news.

Firstly, the services do not just bin candidates for the sake of it , especially in this day and age. You need to be honest with yourself, and brutally so. Were you an "admin monster?"

In other words, apart from your kit being minging, was your personal space in the same state? How many times did the CPO have to scream at you, to get things done? How many times were you last on parade, or in the OR's club, when you really should have been sorting your admin out?

How many times, did you find a clever excuse or reason not to do something, or try and engage the training staff, in a reasoned debate, as to why you didn't have to do something? Believe me, I train, and nothing fcuks me off faster, than a wise-mouthed recruit, trying to tell me something, I've heard 20 times before.

2. Prior to joining the RN, you are given a fitness programme to follow. This I did.

No you didn't, you were pulled up on your fitness remember. We give our recruits a fitness programme to follow, as well as telling them, if they want to do extra training, they are welcome to join us in the gym, or in a post work run. How many times did you go to you section commander, and ask him, if you could get some remedial PT? None i guess.

3. I am not a conspiracy theorist. However, I still think that I was singled out and given extra crap. Other people, including some who had been in the (other) services before, also saw this and pointed this out to me.

If you were singled out, it was for two reasons.
a. You were just an honest to goodness bag-of-bollox, who was rapidly shaping up into a waste of his rum ration or .

b. The staff realised you had leadership potential, and wanted to see how you performed under pressure. If you were indeed helping your division oppos with aspects of the course that they had problems with, then that would mark you, for watching. However, you can only do that, if you yourself were ship-shape and Bristol. Basic training in the first weeks, is about self-improvement, THEN helping others, Get yourself straight first, then help everyone else, and believe me, the TS would look very very positively on that, it shows "Leadership" you see....



Instructors will tolerate a lot, if they can see a candidate is trying. We are not ogres, we've been through the same mill as you, and if we see a candidate is keen as mustard, but not up to scratch, we know we're 75% of the way, to turning him into an asset. Fitness comes with time, and in retrospect, I think you realise, that a lot of your evenings, could have been spent seeking out training staff, and getting help with the aspects that you couldn't deal with.

On the subject of ironing , christ on a bicycle, have you never ironed your own stuff, when you're going out on the pull, or have you always had mummy do it for you?

So you very succesfully managed to show the directing staff, that your self-motivation for being in the Armed Forces, was nil. You showed little or no evidence of pride in the service and yourself, and certainly a great fat zip, in the potential "Nelson" stakes.

Remeber, we're not just trying to recruit numpties, we're recruiting potential future leaders, and every single recruit, is looked at in this regard, till he proves otherwise. One day in the future, you may have been required to fight the ship, as the sole commission left standing, or represent the Royal Navy in some capacity, and as far as the training staff were concerned, they had to stop Admiral Hood spinning in his grave, because the noise was keeping them awake at night.

That's the negatives, a lot of us are being harsh, because we KNOW both sides of the story, as it has happened before.

Now the positives........

I believe you mentioned, a suggestion of trying for RNR?

Good, here's what you do. Get your Admin sorted out first and foremost, and stop thinking of weasly words or clever excuses not to do it.

Get your fitness sorted out, you don't have to be Kris Akaboussi, but a reasonable standard is required, in other words, work towards the "bleep test" . If you need a really good physical training programme, go to www.getfitta.co.uk

Stop blaming everyone else for your failures, and get some humility. I have no doubt, you are a rocket scientist in the making, but if you can't work with your oppos, or command their respect, then you are on a hiding to nothing.

In summary.

1. Get your admin sorted out, learn to iron and make your bed, give your poor old mum a break
2. Don't backchat the TS , and do what they say, no matter how beneath you it feels
3. Get some PT in, start with 4 mile walks 5 days a week, with some light jogging thrown in, go to www.getfitta.co.uk and follow the programme
4.Get an attitude transplant ,some humility and act like Forrest Gump in basic.

Once you have achived at least those four points, then, and only then, apply to RNR. If you pass, and are successful, and not adjuged a ******, you'll be on deployment b4 you can say Knife.

.last but not least, cheer up, even Nelson failed IOT the first time

Tony

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Once again I am forced to defend myself.....

I NEVER got lippy with ANY of the instructors. As I saw it, I was there to follow their instructions.

Secondly my kit was not "minging", it just wasn't perfectly folded down to A4 size and laid out.

And when the statement that led to me getting the order of the boot was being read out it mentioned ".......desptite his obvious determination......."

[solotk]

And when the statement that led to me getting the order of the boot was being read out it mentioned ".......desptite his obvious determination......."

I would think that "Fails to listen objectively" might have been one of the other things said.

I have just taken the time, to tell you how a Services instructor might see it, and offered advice, as to what to do, if you wish to pursue a Forces career.

The fact you don't respond well to criticism, is a major pointer. Now if you want a forces career, I suggest you shut up and listen, instead of your continual refrain of "It's not my fault"

If it really isn't your fault, then appeal the decision. If that is not a possible route, and I shudder to think why, then take the advice offered by all and sundry, and knuckle down and be the best you can be. You were obviously unprepared for the career, so get prepared, and try the RNR route. Beleive me, if you do that right, you'll get your ticket yet

Tony

[Jimlad]

Agree with all the above, I'm an RNR officer currently finishing off a course at HMS Collingwood and I have seen a lot of JRs just out of Raleigh this past week. My impression of WEBF is of someone who is a spotter - knows every aspect of the RN except for the real things. Look at the SHAR thread - it reads like a trainspotters diary. Yes my friends and I occasionally talk shop in the wardroom, but never with the lads, we talk about sex / drugs & rock n'roll :) Seriously, the lads aren't interested in this sort of thing, and I get the impression that he thought the whole navy was champing at the bit to talk about SHAR etc.


I too wanted to go regular, I failed the eyesight test and ended up in the RNR - I too was a bit like WEBF - thought I knew it all but knew nothing. If you want to go for the RNR then think about it, but don't waste my or any other officers time by turning up fat, unablew to take care of yourself and wanting to talk politics/ ship specs to anyone. You will be laughed out of the service very fast indeed. Also you can't pass out of Raleigh until you pass the RNFT etc.

I very muich doubt the instructors had it in for you, I think you made your own bed and got what you deserved.

If you are serious about the RNR then feel free to email me and I will gladly let you know what goes on. But just remember we are not an organisation for spotters / anoraks - we are a semi professional organisation doing a lot of real world jobs. Wasters need not apply.

[solotk]

I very muich doubt the instructors had it in for you, I think you made your own bed and got what you deserved.

.......Filed under unitentional cruel pun - lol

But just remember we are not an organisation for spotters / anoraks - we are a semi professional organisation doing a lot of real world jobs. Wasters need not apply.

Amen to that JimLad, WEBF listen to him, me and the rest of your peers, and we'll make a Tar of you yet.....

But why you want to be one, eludes me :D

Tony

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Jimlad

I did NOT talk shop (SHAR etc) to ANYONE. The only things I talked about were the tasks in hand and the general topics that came up in the mess (eg who's snoring?, the World Cup etc).

I am not a spotter or an anorak.

It was only one aspect of the fitness tests that was a problem. As for the issue of looking after myself, my main problems were the fact that when ironing my creases were not sharp enough. As for other critcism, I am not fat or overweight, and I didn't talk about ship specs/details/politics at all. that was neither the time nor the place.

Oh, and as for the bed pun, my bed didn't get pulled. Came close to it, but it never happened.

[solotk]

WEBF

Get off the computer, download the plan from getfitta, and get out an do something this afternoon, you'll feel better

"The longest march, starts with a single step" Mao-Tse-Tung, or some other godless individual

Tony:D

[canberra]

all i'll say as an x raf nco who sailed through basic training is why if the navy is so short of people are they binning people after two weeks? if you feel so strongly about this i would suggest geting all your facts down on paper and making an appointment at your mps next surgery , then the navy will have to explain why they binned you. personally i would have joined the raf!!!!!!!

[bad livin']

WEBF, sorry to hear about your problems but I'm afraid it sounds like you haven't done yourself any favours. I'm an ex serving RAF officer now retraining as a Naval one (hurrah, should have done it in the first place canberra!!!) and when I went through IOT at Cranwell, I was admittedly awful at first. Like you, I thought everything I did wrong was someone else's fault, that I really wasn't that bad, etc, and that my attitude was good. None of these were the case. The cold hard truth is that you have to learn, and learn fast, that when you are criticised it's usually for a very valid reason and for your own success. You should listen, shut mouth, and engage improvement engines (for want of a better phrase).

Life in the Andrew is proving a thousand times more enjoyable because with a few years hindsight I am applying all I learned and as a result am doing much better in my training. My Flt Cdr hated me and I him, but he treated me the way I did for a reason. If I ever see him again I'd love to give him a damn good leathering but there are few people in Mil life who don't have this view of someone they have worked for.

Take on board what your disappointment has brought out - I know it's hard, believe you me. Good things can always come from bad if you take the time to think about what has happened. You should, if still keen, get your act together and try again if they'll let you. Stop whinging and crack on if it's that important to you.

Rgds
BL

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Before I get any more hostile comments, or criticism I'd like to point out that it only happened YESTERDAY.

So it will take a while to get my head around it, get sorted out etc.

[jockspice]

WEBF
Bad luck mate. Blue Wolf and Solotk have given very sound advice - use it the best way you can. Once the less charitable PPRuNers have stopped kicking you while you are down, pick yourself up, dust yourself off and do what you must to improve yourself.
When I failed the AIB on my first attempt I was gutted. I didn't know what to do, whether I would ever be good enough, that I was a failure, etc, etc. But after a **** load of beer and reflection about where I had done badly, I did the things required to change. I got my flabby backside down the gym, grew up a bit and presto, chango, got through it the next time.
Good luck for whatever you do in the future. Remember, when you are down, the only way is up! :)

[STANDTO]

Blimey, Yesterday! That is rough.

Do you live near any hills?

Get a flask, and go up to the top of one, on a weekday. Sit there for an hour, reflect, and plan out your way forward. Sitting in front of that computer aint going to do you any good. Channel your anger and aggression into moving forward mate.

PS. BA are expanding their engineering operation here on the good old IOM. Could do worse.........

[high spirits]

Bad luck me old. Get in there and try again. All DS are chiselers. They only go for the job cos they got a hard time or a recourse themselves. Pick yourself up from ground zero and get back in the fray. Your enthusiasm for the job is plain to see. Banter on these pages is inevitably harsh, sometimes fair, often funny and always contains a home truth or two.

[steamchicken]

The thing about criticism is that you shouldn't take it to heart: you should take it to brain (sounds puky, I know) and learn from it. If you take it to heart, as they say, that's irrational, and you'll either convince yourself it was unfair (and not consider if any of it was worthwhile) or just despair (and do nowt). So, think, and take heart. And if it don't work out in the end: you could certainly get on in the Defence Industry, as various others pointed out. Or consider the civil service Fast Track programme, aiming for the MoD: decent job, you can get to responsibility much quicker than the rest of the civil service sheep, and you might even have the opportunity to change some of the things you (rightly) care about!

[brit bus driver]

WEBF

My original post on this forum was, in hindsight, harsh. I too had a tough go of it through IOT, opting for the all-expenses paid 30 week course when some had the audacity to pass after a mere 18. Sometime after my grad, an ex-flt cdr confided that an "exec lead" was taken from me to give to a girlie who had struggled elsewhere in the course. As it happened, this meant back into the cold & wet for me, and a less-than-stellar performance, etc etc.

As a new APO, I was somewhat pi$$ed off by this, but you know what? The BFTS course I ended up on was full of a dozen of us, fresh from our IOT grad not 4 days earlier. We had a blast and, had I finished on my original IOT, I'm not sure my first year in the RAF proper would have (could have!!) been nearly so much fun.

Take the sound advice offered here, and if it's what you want, give it another shot in a year or so. There is no other life like it (take that whichever way you like).

Oh, btw, had I been fitter at the start of IOT, chances are things would have been different. I passed the grade, but there is no doubt that when you spend your life constantly knackered, every task becomes more complex than it should otherwise be.

Best of luck

[Man-on-the-fence]

WEBF

Not a comment on your performance but I have always found the following words useful.

If
(Rudyard Kipling)

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

[Barn Doors]

WEBF,

First, unlucky me-old! $h!t happens all the time, and everyone has to deal with dissappointment at some stage. This sounds terribly patronising I know, but I mean well.

From what you've said, it seems you were under a bit of a spotlight from the word "GO" and didn't really settle into the regime of Basic Training (maybe you didn't get a chance, who knows) I for one though, don't believe you gave yourself the best chance. You certainly do the homework when it comes to RN stuff, and you offer some fairly contraversial debate at times. This could have been a reason for getting singled out. You have a reputation on this forum, and it would'nt take the brains of a rocket scientist to work out exactly who you are (WE, start date etc)

No-one likes a smart-arse, but I'm afraid you have that reputation and you may have nailed your own coffin mate. Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but you did go on like a bleedin' Admiral before you'd even joined up!

BD;)

[Scud-U-Like]

WEBF

No one could blame you for feeling down at the moment, but you really should take heed of the pearls of wisdom you have been offered in this thread.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Scud.....Thanks, I'll will read and think about everything said here.

Barn Doors.....I think you are a little paranoid. I do NOT believe, not for a single second, that my problems were in any way caused by anything I said on PPRuNe or any of my other actions (like writing to my MP). These things were done before I joined, and I was perfectly entitled to do them.

I don't think any of my postings were too controversial. However, you do have a point about the smart-arse reputation. However, on PPRuNE I never stated stuff just of make myself look good. If I stated facts and figures it was/is/will be to support my argument.

As for being a smart-arse under training - basically I knew better. One of the cardinal rules is that the instructor is ALWAYS right. Therefore I never tried to argue with them or impress them with my brain power. It was neither the time nor the place for that. But the instructor were all aware of my academic background and in a way this was held against me. "You've got a degree........why can't you bull your boots properly?" etc.

It has been suggested that I was under the spotlight for a different reason, one that, if I had known about it, would have made it a lot less stressful. I repeat my point that I think two weeks is too short a time to make an assesment of a person.

It is time for me to a) calm down b) find out what options (if any) I have c) make a rational assesment of what went wrong and why and d) decide the next move.

I think you can appreciate that I am all over the place at the moment. But at least I tried!

[AllTrimDoubt]

...well we didn't see this one coming folks!

Seriously WEBF - Whilst I sympathize with your plight I am not too surprised. Having read some of your posts in other threads and, more importantly, your responses to several WISE posts in this thread I feel that you just aren't taking onboard the big picture here. Most of the people here have been through or are in a position to know what exactly it is we're looking for/trying to achieve with training and beyond. Yet you still argue. Listen. Action. Cope.

Until you can...

Sometimes it's just not worth trying to shovel s**t uphill with a pointed stick!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I admit it was a failure on my part to not do more to prepare prior to joining. This particularly applies to....

1. Fitness. I considered myself reasonably fit. I followed the (dubiously effective) pre entry training programme they give you. But nothing can prepare you for running about 16 hours a day. I failed to anticipate just how exhausting it would be. It isn't just the PT, it's everything else too (particularly the endless laps around the parade ground for things like having fluff on my beret).

2. Kit. I knew how to wash and iron stuff prior to going in. Of course I did, I am not an idiot! (Some of you might well dispute that.) But I did not practise folding it down to A4 size, nor did I practise ironing in SHARP creases (front/back of trousers, shirt sleeves etc). I didn't know about the A4 size bit, but I should of got more practise in precise ironing and getting creases in the right places. Neither did I practise polishing boots or shoes.

3. Everything else!! No honestly the above two points were the main ones.

Having got there, I also let myself down. One was not drinking enough water. I found it difficult to drink litres of plain water every day, when I didn't feel thirsty. This probably caused my physical (and mental) performance to suffer. Secondly, I failed to get on top of the kit problem from day one. In the first week I put it off to the weekend to sort out, which I sort of did, and it carried on from there.

So, as I see it the problems were ones of the practicalities rather than of attitude. I think the person who said I failed to see the trees for the word had a point!

[BLW Skylark 4]

WEBF,

As a non miltary 'guest' in this forum, can I venture a point of view from the other side of the fence.

Firstly, I am not familiar with your PPRUNE history and thus have no axe to grind, but I have been following this thread with interest. Whilst I concur that some of the relies have been a bit harsh, reading your subsequent posts, whether you mean to or not, they come across as a bit arrogant and seem to shout "I know better"....

This is not intended as a personal criticism but I'm just trying to suggest that maybe without meaning to, this is how you came over to the instructing staff. I say this as its a trait I recognise from my past and is why my dream remains unfulfilled, I didn't listen when people told me things and thought I could muddle through in my own way.

I admire and respect you for what you have achieved so far (you did much more than me) but I do think you should take a tough hard look at yourself and how others perceive you.

In closing, I realise that this probably seems the end of the world, but dont despair - there are ALWAYS alternatives. Whilst I would love to be involved in Military aviation (and would do things so differently if I could turn the clock back), there is life beyond that. I now fly gliders as a civilian with probably a much higher standard of living (rightly or wrongly) than most of those who place themselves in harms way to enable me to do so.

Remember, you have two eyes & two ears but only one mouth - thats not a coincidence - read, think, but most importantly LISTEN to the advice you are being offered.

:)

[rivetjoint]

I agree with Skylark here and I'm just a civvy "guest" too.

You are very lucky, you have entered basic training, failed, THEN had the luxury of 20 or so people who have previously passed give you advice on where you went wrong. For nothing. I think you're the world's luckiest failed recruit right now.

One bit of advice is that there is no rule saying you have to have the last word on a subject. Take advice constructively, don't always try and defend yourself.

So you left the Navy on Thursday wasn't it? What have you do in the 3 days since to help yourself pass next time?

Ps
Can't believe you didn't practice polishing shoes before you joined!

[AllTrimDoubt]

WEBF

Re your last post - yet again! You fail to see your problem IS one of attitude and not the practicalities you allude to. They are merely symptoms of a greater problem.

You do not have a God given right to join the military. The selection procedure is there to ensure we start with the right basic standard. The training system is then our tool to develop and mould that individual into a useful part of the overall frontline machine. If you do not or cannot conform to that - for WHATEVER reason - then it is our right to terminate your employment.

Simple. OK?

I am beginning to feel great sympathy for your DS. Whatever attributes you possess which gained you entry to the RN it is becoming clear that good old-fashioned Character and Leadership (to give it its old non-pc term!) was not one of them.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I will soon get a letter from Commander (Training), and that will let me know what the scores is, and what my main shortcomings were (from the instructors' point of view).

Wait and see........:(

[solotk]

WEBF,

Have you registered on www.getfitta.co.uk yet?

Have you been for a walk this weekend, or a run, if not , why not?

Even if you've decided to veg in front of the box, at least do 20 press ups every 20 mins over an hour.
In short, keep doing things, little and often , to achieve your goal

Tony

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

OK guys, this is slightly off topic but here goes...

I start IOT (RAF) in just over six weeks. I thought I was well prepared but this thread has me second guessing! Any one got some hints/tips/suggestions? I've had a search around the rest of the site but most 'wannabe' postings are regarding OASC.
Thanks solotk, that website is brilliant!

WEBF, best of luck next time.

(feel free to email me through my profile if you prefer)

[solotk]

You're welcome :D , but WEBF still hasn't confirmed he's used it....

OK 6 weeks to go, as regards the physical side, you now have to really train, but it will be worthwhile. Follow the advice we've all given WEBF, and you won't go far wrong.

Be smart the moment you arrive, in my branch,we start looking at our recruits, the moment they get off the transport. SWITCH ON the moment you arrive

When given a task, no matter how mundane, attack it with enthusiasm and good humour, even when you're chinstrapped (knackered). Don't crawl to the instructors, or seek to engage them in lofty conversation, you can see from this board, the subjects they like to talk about,and I don't mean the effectiveness of the F3 in a BVR role etc etc yawnorama. As yet, you are not qualified to offer an experienced opinion. Don't back chat the instructors, or make excuses, if you're wrong, or screwed the pooch, ADMIT IT, and crack on . Don't ask damn fool questions if you can avoid it.

Be selfish for the first week, concentrate on yourself, shine, but don't go over the top. Listen to everything that's said, if necessary, make notes of everything.

DON'T ALWAYS BE FIRST, but strive to be in the top 5, what ever happens, never ever ever be last. Don't live in the NAAFI or candidate's club, when you have work to do. Make sure all your kit is ready and prepared first, then help the slower members of your intake.

Find someone on your intake you like, and work with them, use the "Buddy-Buddy" system , and look out for each other, and it will make things easier.

Buy a packet of cigarettes, even if you don't smoke, I can guarantee one of your instructors will, and personally, I never refuse cigarettes from recruits :D

If you are not sure of anything after a lesson , ASK! That is why we're there, and it flatters us, that you're interested.

Do not seek to become an instructors mate, it won't happen (see crawling) but, as the course progresses, and you prove you are not a bag o' bollox , we will soften towards you, after all, who's going to buy our beer?

Always show maximum effort, and give everything 110% and you will pass.



Tony :D

I forgot to add, get to a surplus store, and buy at least 2 sets of CS95 or Combat/Soldier 95 suits and another pair of Assault boots (Issue Pattern) for assault courses and the like, that way, you can keep 2 sets of pressed and cleaned kit available, instead of running around like a mad bast. trying to stay on top of the game You can try www.silvermans.co.uk The kit's a bit pricey, but it is all grade 1, and should pass inspection. If you tell them what it is for, they'll try their best to give you the best available....

[BlueWolf]

AP, good on ya.

with God's help and a following wind, by the time you feel like coming home to retirement and instructorship(!) we will have rebuilt an ACF for you. That's if I've got anything to do with it, which I will.

Maybe the only other thing I can add is to rephrase something solotk has already said earlier...

If they chuck you in the deep end, it's to see how you swim, not to hear your comments on the relative fairness of the depth of the water.

Hope the snow is hammering you guys as hard in Christchurch as it is here in Central Otago.

Good luck mate.

[solotk]

Blue, just out of idle interest, what happend to the A-4 fleet? Have they all been "reduced to produce" or simply mothballed?

Tony

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I have registered on the Getfitta site.

Incidently, before joining I was given a pre-entry finess programme, which I followed. The 1.5 mile run was not the problem, it was shuttle sprint, and doing sit ups correctly and in sync with the bleeps.

As for the other points, I never answered back to an instuctor, or tried to impress them wih my knowledge. So these possible criticisms are unfounded. Also I think it unlikely that I would have been seen as cocky, far more likely they would consider me an introvert.

[flexy won]

WEBF

Not learning yet are you? Excuses, counter-arguements, etc.

I am surprised you asked for advice in the first place, you certainly don't seem to be heeding much of it.

Having gained commissions in both the RAF and the Army (after time in the ranks) after putting in a lot of hard graft because I was not a natural at anything, I feel qualified to say you need to grow up and realise that there are people who are trying to help you with some solid, proven advice.

Show a bit of humility and don't throw it back in their face.

BTW. What was your BFT time and what level on the beep test did you achieve?

Keep the chin up but keep the head below the parapit.

[solotk]

Incidently, before joining I was given a pre-entry finess programme, which I followed. The 1.5 mile run was not the problem, it was shuttle sprint, and doing sit ups correctly and in sync with the bleeps.


Jesus Christ on a Bicycle, will you fcuking listen? You failed fitness, because you were a FAT CIVVY KNACKER You failed in the first 2 weeks, because you are a wise-mouthed, arrogant self-opinonated bone-idle blame shifting workshy woodentop

Your propensity to not listen is staggering, it really really is. Now I presume you posted your sorry tale of being the course fcuk up, because you expected sympathy,understanding and a nice cup of tea from your peers. Well maybe, that's how they do it in the Light/Dark Blue sharp end, but in my branch of the service, a Size 9 sharply applied south of the spine, works wonders, except in your case , we'd probably have to draw a spine on, to give us an aiming point.

Now really, all I can see, and a great many others, is that you prefer to indulge in witty repartee and "Top trumps" games with people who know a sh*tload more than you, at just about everything. The real reason, and lets be honest, that you failed, apart from being a bag o' ****e ,is that you felt being a rating was beneath you, and you just didn't try at all, that's the only reason you get kicked out, and I know that, for a cold , hard fact. If we get someone, who can't and won't be motivated, we get rid - endex.

I failed to get on top of the kit problem from day one. In the first week I put it off to the weekend to sort out, which I sort of did, and it carried on from there.

So , as you are only issued a limited amount of kit, unless you got switched on, which you didn't, and bearing in mind the workload, at some point, you would have been minging, no?


1. Fitness. I considered myself reasonably fit. I followed the (dubiously effective) pre entry training programme they give you. But nothing can prepare you for running about 16 hours a day. I failed to anticipate just how exhausting it would be. It isn't just the PT, it's everything else too (particularly the endless laps around the parade ground for things like having fluff on my beret).

For things like having fluff on your beret, and endless laps QED You were minging all the time. You got off light, I'd have had you sick of press-ups and NI stress positions too.

The pre-entry training programme, while I can't speak for the Andrew, is optimised for the PlayStation generation and I believe fairly standard across the Forces, and it works, it is not "dubiously effective" . It is only that, when the candidate concerned, can't be arsed to follow it, i.e you.

Now, if you genuinely seek help, which it is blindingly obvious you don't, then shut the fcuk up, and listen.

Have you been watching Lads Army? Those NCO's , are regular army instructors, and they are very very good at their jobs. They have transformed civilians, who know they are only there for a month, into something resembling soldiers. One instructor, was genuinely upset by the resignation of Hanson(?), the fat guy. Why? Because as an experienced instructor, he knew that the candidate had the right stuff to succeed, his oppos did too, unfortunately, he didn't, because his fitness or lack of it, was HIS percieved problem, not the DS's, because they could have made him fitter. Hanson had a lot of redeeming qualities, he simply lacked maturity, and I for one, would have kept working on him and persevered, as the Army instructors tried to do

Now, I have reached the conclusion, that you effectively decided to sack it, after you were told, you couldn't be an officer, so well spotted by the board for a change. You could have redeemed yourself, but you chose not to, because what's really coming across here, is your "I'm better than this" NEWSFLASH, you're a legend in your own mind, that's all.

Now you can shut up, and brighten everyone's day, by saying "You're all right, I fcuked up, it's my fault, can we start with a clean sheet, I'll listen", or you can carry on "defending yourself"

Do you want to be a Warrior or a Wannabee? Your call but somehow I think I know which one it will be :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Jimlad]

Agree entirely,

you don't have anything to do with Forward do you solotk? Just noticed you were registered in Brum.

[solotk]

No Jim, but I've seen the new shore establishment for Forward, it's very very nice, and as my knees are permanently hurting now, I might be tempted to transfer - lol , What's the age limit?

Tony :D

[difar69]

solotk,
Fantastic!
I think I can safely say that you have echoed the feelings of most serving guys on this forum towards WEBF and his constant dripping. The whingeing little P***K should seriously consider finding somewhere else to spend his days, as I for one no longer welcome him here.
WEBF, did you really think we would sympathise with you or are you that stupid? (Don't you dare start reeling off your pissy qualifications, there are many here who have far better but keep them to themselves):mad:

Move on, leave us alone, we don't want you.

[Chalkstripe]

Congratulations WEBF!

Solotk gave you some seriously sound advice. He very obviously knows what he was talking about, and if you had any savvy at all you would have shut up and done as suggested. Then, in a few months, you could have come back and impressed everyone with the new lean and mean WEBF. Did you? Did you b*ll*cks! You just sat your butt in front of your computer and ranted about how unfair the world is, and how no one understands, and if only you could have had (yet) another chance! Too bad! You were given the opportunity to become something very special and you blew it.

Now you have managed to pi$$ off someone that was willing to help/advise you - no wonder your DS wanted to get rid of you! If everyone else on this forum is anything like me, any sympathy has turned to vast relief that you didn't succeed getting frontline, coupled with a certain incredulous anticipation about your next whinge.

Shut up. Grow up. Get on with your life.

P.S. Don't bother boring me with more meaningless drivel dressed up as excuses

P.P.S. solotk - thanks for the outstanding rant, it really has cheered up my entire week :D :D :D

[PlasticCabDriver]

At the risk of straying off the thread a little (much as I enjoy listening to WEBF's attempts to become best mates with solotk) those 'NCOs' on Lads Army must be having the time of their lives! You can see the little smile play across the corner of their mouths every time they go into the barrack room for an inspection.
They also seem genuinely enthusiastic for getting the best out of their charges, even if, as they all know, they are only there for a month. Are they all serving, or are some of them (the officer?) actors?

[BlueWolf]

solo

The A4 and Macchi fleets are currently mothballed awaiting sale, the Skyhawks are in a hangar at Woodbourne and the Macchis I think are at Whenuapai.
Two of each are being kept in flying condition at Ohakea, ostensibly so potential customers can have a test ride.
The RCAF are apparently interested in the A4s as a LIFT, but the process is likely to take a while. I wouldn't mind betting the Canucks are stalling things deliberately for us till after the election next month. Watch this space!

[fobotcso]

Chaps, when I first read through this thread I wondered if it just might, could be, a wind up.

I'm now convinced that it is.

Do you think WEBF could be Admin Guru in disguise?

Let it go; his reading is even worse that his writing and he cannot or will not understand what you are saying.

[gijoe]

As I posted earlier, always looking for someone else to blame...

Sorry WEBF but your replies to all of the good advice above have continued to demonstrate that you probably failed to listen to the words of guidance from your trainers.

It is not easy being a trainer (yes, I am!) but in HM Forces we are in the priviliged position of having charges that will do what they are told. Tell that to an inner city secondary school teacher!

In addition HM Forces, generally, are in a bad way, or will be in the next few years, when it comes to manning. A JNCO, SNCO, WO or officer is not grown overnight - he/she is cultivated from the second they sign on. Gaining a commission means slightly more than sticking a gold ring, stripe or pip on your shoulder. It is not a light decision to remove someone from training.....

I have no doubt that any sign of committment, willingness to learn, ability to listen, and compassion for others in yourself would have been noticed by your DS.

Take a deep breath, do a few more laps and try again. The mark of a man is how he fights when he is down...

G

[AllTrimDoubt]

Solotk

Excellent post. Well said mate!

;) ;) ;)

[Jimlad]

I am having a massive "debate" on the sea eagle thread - he was whining about how being a tiff meant being an engineer and nothing else. I have posted my own personal views on what being an officer / snco is all about. He still tries to find an excuse though.

ps - solotk - not sure of upper age limit for reserves, if you like then ping me an email, letting me know what areas / branches you are thinking about and I'll do some digging for you and get some data / phone numbers etc,

[WE Branch Fanatic]

No Jimlad, I said (or meant to say) that a Tiff was/is a (hands on) Engineer and fast track Killick/Senior Rate. In other words the leadership aspects are less than that of an Officer, and part one trainee Tiffs are not expected to show the same degree of leadership as potential Officers.

[BEagle]

Perhaps this thread has run its course?

[solotk]

I should say so Beags, I think it's really pretty obvious, don't you?

Fobotsco, I've been thinking the same........

[AllTrimDoubt]

WEBF - You are (as usual) talking absolute B****CKS. Leadership is an essential part of ant Artificers skill set. He is destined to become a Senior Rate in short order and therefore MUST BE CAPABLE OF TAKING CHARGE.

Your view seems to indicate that you view it as nothing more than a fast-track to promotion. Maybe now we are seeing the true reason behind your short tenure in the RN. No doubt your DS recognised this and (thankfully) saved us all the hardship in the longer term.

Listen to Solotk's wise words. Ziplip.

Beagle - you are right; this thread as run its course. I am not sure whether to laugh or despair at WEBF's replies, but he clearly is taking in none of the advice on offer and might just as well nob off and allow us all to await the return of Admin Guru! (Unless he really IS Admin Guru?)

:D

[WE Branch Fanatic]

AllTrimDoubt

Yes of course, but initially (ie in part one training) they are only loking for the seeds of leadership.

As for the other points, thankyou to everyone who offered advice. However it seems that whenever I say something I upset someone.

Maybe I should just stop breathing?

[Scud-U-Like]

Citation:

"In spite of intense fire and obvious threats to his life, WEBF stood by his post to the end."

Seriously, WEBF. In your current state of mind, this is probably not the best place for you to contemplate your future.

Good Luck

[The English Passenger]

WEBF,

"Maybe I should stop breathing?"

J***s C****t, what is your problem? That sort of self pitying remark is endemic of your attitude....."Please please feel sorry for me everyone, I am all lonely and my computer is my only friend"

SHUT UP

Not sure about seeing the wood or the trees, at the moment it seems you need to go and crawl back under the slimy rock in the middle of the swamp that you came from and work out if you know what wood or trees are!!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[solotk]

I think the steadfast "refuse to admit I might have fcuked up" attitude, is probably what gets on my tits the very most.

I'm sure that's why you were sacked WEBF.

I am also sure, u are very full of ****, as to the reasons for your very quick departure from basic...........

............Assuming you went there in the first place

But I'm sure someone above my pay scale, will probably be on the Military exchange this morning making their own enquiries, I just hope they share - lol :D

[solotk]

BlueWolf,

Ta very muchly for the gen on the NZFJ fleet. Will civilians be allowed to tender for these airframes, and if so, do you know of a point of contact?

Tony

[Chalkstripe]

WEBF

I've just re read my post of yesterday and, although I stand by the sentiments, the phrasing was perhaps a bit harsh.

The disappointment you are feeling is huge (I know - I was chopped after my FNT). But you need to accept that it wasn't a conspiracy against you, you simply did not have what was being looked for. It took me a couple of years to stop making excuses (defence cuts/too many aircrew- not enough cockpits etc). The simple fact of the matter is that I wasn't good enough to make the grade. Without trying to be too dramatic, it means that you will not be put in the position where your lack of ability will get yourself, and others, killed.

Take a long hard honest think about the reasons why you failed. If you really think that you can improve then work hard at those areas where you were weak. But if you you realize that it is beyond you (and there are millions of people out there that fall short of the mark), then take on board all that has been discussed (no matter how hard some of that is) and get on with your life.

Your continual excuses and counter arguments have done you no favours.

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Everyone

Although it may have came across otherwise, I have not been trying to deny that I screwed up. Big Time. Not being fit enough, not being prepared for dealing with kit, not getting on top of the kit from day one, being poorly organised, and a few other things as well.

Yes I admit it, its MY fault. The may have been factors that contributed to my problems, but, ultimately it is me who must accept responsibility.

I NEVER meant to annoy Solotk and the others who have given me advice. Most of what you said was true. My point was that I won't have a full explaination of what went wrong (from the intsructers point of view) until I get the letter from Cdr(T).

And Jimlad, I think you was just trying to trip me up last night. I was making a quick reply to your comment and didn't go into any depth, this you took as evidance of lack of knowledge.

So to sum up.........

1. Yes, it is MY fault.
2. I never meant to upset anyone.
3. I won't know the score until I ger Cdr(T)'s letter.
4. Sometimes I don't explain things very well.

Bear in mind that my emotions are still all over the place so I am more defensive than usual.

Last night I decided never to post on PPRuNe again. But alas, I have failed! As for other posts on other threads, I accept that they are probably not 100% correct. I reason I registered on PPRuNE was to air my views on the Sea Harrier debate. I stand by those comments that I have made, having checked my facts. But if I have caused offence or annoyance to anyone by posting on other subjects then I am sorry.

Once again, my apologies to everyone I've annoyed.

Thankyou.

[BlueWolf]

WE

Some further thoughts, and on this topic, probably final ones.

Whether you realise it or not, everyone who has responded to your thread here, myself included, has been saying the same thing.

Some people have been more diplomatic than others, and some a little more blunt.

To begin with even those who felt doubts were prepared to give you the benefit of those doubts. The advice offered by those who responded was genuine, informed, and practical.

By "not seeing the trees for concentrating on the wood" I meant that perhaps your choice of career had been clouded by a less than perfectly clearly defined personal life goal, rather than alluding to a clash between attitudes and practicalities; but in any case, such a definition is a perfect way of illustrating what has gone wrong.
In the military, attitudes and practicalities are the same thing; to put it another way, your attitudes are what determine whether or not you will achieve the practicalities.

In training, you are given certain challenges to overcome. This programme of challenges is purpose designed to be as near to impossible to achieve as it can be. The reason for this, as solotk said, is to see how you perform under pressure. I put it this way; they chuck you in the deep end to see how you will swim.
What your instructors are looking for is not so much whether you can achieve the set goals, as what your approach to achieving them is.

If your approach - or attitude - towards overcoming the obstacles placed before you is right, then you are most of the way there, and you can be taught the rest.
If your approach is not able to be built upon,....well, this is why we are here.

The programme is widely varied because it is intended to be revealing. Different people have different talents and strengths, and some will easily overcome challenges which others struggle with. One way or another, however, training will find a way to place in your path an obstacle which you are unable to overcome. It is your approach - or attitude - to overcoming this obstacle which reveals to your instructors the truth of your nature which they are seeking.

Thus the training programme includes elements of academic ability, physical prowess, teamwork, leadership, versatility, flexibility, learning ability, organisation, coordination, etc etc etc.

It is not what you can achieve easily that is of interest to your instructors. What interests them are those things which you cannot achieve easily, or more to the point, your approach to trying to achieve them.

A Brain of Britain who is not an Olympian, but who is spotted running up and down the football field at every spare moment, who books extra sesions in the gym, and who asks his athletic contemporaries for advice and assistance, is marked with having the right approach.
The same Brain who passes comments to the effect that running is pointless because there's nowhere to run on a boat, or that everything is done from behind a computer station anyway, is not.

The Olympian who struggles with calculus or Mediaeval history, but who haunts the Library and the computer room, who pesters the instructors for individual tuition, and who swaps after-hours instruction from one of the Brains in return for showing him how to do fingertip pushups will likewise shine; the Olympian who disregards his academics, happy in the knowledge that he can carry a field gun uphill under one arm, will be chopped.

Brain, Olympian, and their entry mate Klutz (who can't tell left from right on the parade ground, but who can shine boots like no-one else, field strip an M16 in nine seconds, and by God he's trying, every spare minute) are given an impossible domestic schedule. So they resort to teamwork. Someone irons, someone does boots, someone cleans the hut; and they all get through. This shows the instructors two things; one, they can work as a team, and two, that their individual and collective approach is that they will succeed come hell or high water.

Ultimately, the point of the above is that you must be able to achieve, or genuinely and creatively attempt to achieve, all that is required of you.

You are given a reqired level of fitness, and a programme by which to achieve it. The level is a minimum, not a suggestion. if the programme does not achieve the level for you, it is your responsibility to creatively supplement it in such a way that you will do so anyway. There are no excuses, and responsibility cannot be moved to any other person or circumstance.

If you are required to fold a shirt/jacket/pair of pants down to A4 size, this is what you learn to somehow do.
The size is irrelevant. It could be A3 or A5; the point is that it is what is required. So you do it.

You are kept on the go for very long periods. This is intended to tire you out.
Being tired will reveal truths about you. It will enable you and your instructors to identify your limits, and improve on them; galvanise you to greater fitness and ability. It is unreasonable, deliberately so. Experiencing extreme stress, tiredness, and unreasonable behaviour will prepare you for service. War is unreasonable. In war or conflict, the behaviour of the enemy is often characterised by unreasonableness. They throw fast heavy exploding things at you without warning or provocation, and they don't knock off at teatime.
Your approach to dealing with this situation shows your instructors whether or not you are made of the stuff for which they are looking, or whether you are prepared, willing, and have a desire to become that stuff.

If you have a desire to succeed, and you know what is required, then you will find a way of achieving it. No ifs, buts or maybes, no complaints, no arguments. It is your responsibility. No other person or situation can change that.
There is no conspiracy, and it is not personal, other than in the sense that your instructors will attempt to goad the better person out in you.

If the Navy is still what you want, then go back, get it right, and do it again.
If not, decide to do something else. All of the above still applies.

Good luck.

PS: But, nothing.

[BlueWolf]

solotk,

Ernst and Young are handling the sale on the government's behalf. They have, I know, recieved enquiries from private bidders as well as countries. Preference is to dispose of them as a job lot, but nothing has been confirmed as yet.
Potential purchasers have to be approved by the Americans as part of an agreement regarding the onsale of some of the avionics upgrades from recent years.
I'll dig up any other detail I can for you; I think expected price is about NZ$5 million apiece with weapons and gadgets.

Cheers

RP

[solotk]

Yes I admit it, its MY fault. The may have been factors that contributed to my problems, but, ultimately it is me who must accept responsibility.

At long bloody last. Right, feeling better? Good.

What we are all trying to do, is to get you to accept responsibility for your actions. Once you do that, then we can start to build again.

Basic training is about " Breaking down and building up" . We are not interested in your views or attitudes unless they are "Prejudicial to good order and discipline". We are solely interested in turning you into an asset in the forces.

Your responsibility, starts with getting yourself and your attitude right, and heading in the direction we want. In other words, we want you to suspend your quirks and foibles, for the duration of the training, we want you to shut up and listen to what we have to say. Without wishing to appear dramatic, it may one day save your life., and that of your oppos.

We want you to show us, in some small part, that you are taking these lessons on board. Nothing would please me more, then you saying "I went for a run today, I was bolloxed, but I'm going out tomorrow"

You say you still haven't received a letter from RNTT about your reasons for being dismissed the service.

Well I suggest you go on the offensive. Phone them, ask for the letter, and tell them you need to know the reasons why, soonest, because you have to start training for re-entry. Don't crawl, just tell them as coldly and matter-of-factly as possible.

DO NOT get into a discusssion as to why you were dismissed. Don't get me wrong, they may think you a w****r who won't do as he says or is told , but, they will remember you.

A lot of people lost the plot with you, and I think it fair to say, you have some ground to make up.

In future, I suggest you restrict your postings, to verifiable and quoted fact, or preface your more anoraky statements with "In my humble opinion". That shows maturity, and reasoned and considered thought before action.

I want you to go to a surplus store, and buy a set of working dress, similar to that you wore on your course and practice ironing them, over and over again. The same goes with learning to polish your shoes, practice , practice, practice.

We know you have an Engineers qualification, which you feel entitles you to know a lot . However , there are three ways to take a spanner to something , as far as the RN are concerned, the Right way, the wrong way and the Navy way. You must wind your neck in, even if you think you know more than the instructors, because, with regard to Navy doctrine and procedure, believe me you don't.

Do not argue the toss with Forces personnel over how the service or promotion works. You don't know, we do, and we DO regard with contempt and loathing, anyone who tries to tell us how our jobs work, with no experience in the matter.

Do not get into debate with Forces personnel over equipment and procedure, it marks you for an anorak. This forum is used by a lot of people, and I get the uncomfortable feeling, that at least one of the people you crossed swords with, is a decorated Ex-RN Harrier Jock, who has fired his guns in anger.

If you had come to the forum, and asked, as a lot of other people do, "I'm going to basic, any tips?" Then there might be a lot more sympathy.

Now, I think we're done feeling sorry for ourselves, haven't we. I think it's time for cold, hard resolve.

Start your fitness training now, and practice your ironing. Get your mum to show you if you must. Putting a sharp crease in your kit, is not rocket science, and is blissfully easy. the same goes for polishing shoes. Practice on your own clothing before you go out. Remember, it is how others perceive your standards of turnout and discipline, that have led to the current situation, so treat each day now, as if you were still in the service. Get up early, make sure your kit is squared, go for a run, then resume your normal day. Get into a routine, and stick to it.

In 3 months time, with increased fitness etc, apply to your local RNR establishment, and get on to the recruit cadre. Work hard there, then make the decision, as to whether or not you want to go full time. In RNR a lot of courses, relevant to your education and skillset are available to you. If you feel you want to go regular, then opt for an FTRS type course, which means being a regular for up to a year.

But above all, learn to take responsibility for your actions, learn , and crack on.

If you need motivation? There were probably women on your course, and they are still there, knocking it out and rocking on.

Be the best you can be, and that starts today

Tony

P.S. Outstanding post BlueWolf :D

[rivetjoint]

I say again WEBF, you are the luckiest failed recruit in the world.
You must have been given enough "inside information" from people "in the know" to pass twice over now.

News of the threads regarding your departure must have reached quite a few chatting mouths around the Services by now. Lets hope the face who you try and convince to let you into the Navy next time isn't about.....

[Mr C Hinecap]

Blimey - with qualities like these, all he needs to do is have a silly accident that is his fault on day 1 of training, exacerbate the injury through his own stupidity, show LMF, complain and bitch. Cranwell would be too afraid to kick him out & probably give him Flt Lt with seniority straight away!!!

Ah - if only we had the resolve of the RN.

[AllTrimDoubt]

BlueWolf - Excellent words. I "know a colleague" who is often involved in various areas of our selection process who might use some or all of that as a guide at times. Neatly sums up what it's all about.

WEBF please take note. The aforementioned post, along with Solotk's advice and that from a few others contain what you need to know.

[Scud-U-Like]

Solotk

Bloody hell! I was so motivated by your post that I got my @rse down the gym tonight, after a few weeks off.

Not sure the 4 pints of Kronenborg afterwards were equally beneficial.

In awe,

Scud

[solotk]

A large liquid intake, after exercise is essential ScudMate , especially after a long layoff.

4 pints sounds about right, but the first pint should be sipped slowly, to give the body the best chance to absorb the fluid.

Kronenbourg is ideal for this, because the only thing closer to water, is the Falmouth Lifeboat :D

[uwchporfa]

try the RAF, you will **** it :D

[Ivchenko]

This thread may not have run its course quite yet, although with this post I could be accused of diverting it a bit….

Mixed with some excellent advice to WEBF has been more than a hint of service arrogance – the phrase Fat Civvy speaks of somebody who knows little about the world outside taxpayer funded insitutionalism. (Actually it was a profoundly stupid remark, as anybody looking at the straining belts in some of the service bars I've seen in the last few years and then visited a City gym would acknowledge.)

WEBF, I had a different but not totally dissimilar experience, leaving Dartmouth after a year at my own volition - but with no regret on the Navy’s part - because I simply didn’t get it. Just didn’t feel that I could fit. This shook me up in the same sort of way that you’re feeling. It was 22 years ago but I still remember it.

A couple of things have happened since. One is that via the company I run, I interview a good number of senior officers who are retiring in – typically - their mid 50s and want a second career outside, and I help with this. The move to the commercial world is invariably as traumatic for them as your failing has been for you. The services, admire them as we do, are not everything and the vast majority of successful and valuable individuals would not cope with the military ways of doing things. Just a fact of human nature.

Second is, that for a few years I was lucky enough to fly with a (ha ha poxy civilian:D) display team and hence spent many a night in an RAF mess. The FJ crews only seemed to have two questions – what do you do for a living and how can I get to do that?

So take on board the advice you have been given – I agree with most of it and you certainly need to shut up and listen – but when you’ve got your act together don’t think of the military as the be all and end all.

Good luck

[solotk]

the phrase Fat Civvy speaks of somebody who knows little about the world outside taxpayer funded insitutionalism. (Actually it was a profoundly stupid remark, as anybody looking at the straining belts in some of the service bars I've seen in the last few years and then visited a City gym would acknowledge.)


Ivchenko, the phrase "Fat Civvy Knacker" is standard service speak, in the Army anyway for any civilian not up to the Army standard of fitness. Well by Army I mean Infantry (Grunt-Grunt, Hoo-Yaaar) It is especially relevant today , in the "Playstation Generation" as kids do not exercise or play sports as much as they used to, and live in training shoes, which does create a problem when we try to get them going over distances in boots.

It was also used as an attention-getter to a person who at that point , was burying his head in the sand, and needed a quick wake-up call.

.and I do know an awful lot of the world outside Taxpayer funded institutionalism, which means I can see both sides of the picture.

However you are right, as regards the fitness standards of some members of the services, but , in basic training, there is a standard of fitness that is required.

Not many people genuinely enjoy having to keep fit, it's a bloody nause, and we all have better things to do , then sweat in the gym.

WEBF may not be cut out , for a life in the Military, but I think he can only make that decision, when he's given himself, and the service, a fair chance......

Tony :D

[solotk]

BlueWolf,
Anything you can find out on the NZFJ fleet disposal, will be of great interest, Especially the Macchis and the T-A4's.

Tony

Edit: Just picked up this link......

http://www.executive.govt.nz/f16/review8.htm

[Flap62]

Ivchenko,

The FJ crews only seemed to have two questions – what do you do for a living and how can I get to do that?

Get real and get a life. My how I yearn for the cut and thrust of office politics, the throaty roar of the photocopier and the smell of correcting fluid drifting on the morning air.

[Ivchenko]

Flap 62

That was predictable.

Sorry mate, that's what they said. Perhaps they realised that for many of us civvy life is not what you describe, but about having the freedom to have our own ideas, make them work, reap the rewards if they do and face ruin if they fail. And nobody to tell us what to do.

Nothing wrong with either, but you seem to be a classic example of how many in the services have no idea of what most of us out here actually do. This is a shame, it causes many to become unstuck and it infuriates me that the military powers that be don't do a better job of helping people coming out of the forces to move into civilian life.

PS Can't resist mentioning that the last time I saw a photocopier or a bottle of correction fluid was at RAF Linton last year.:)

[BlueWolf]

Ah yes solotk, the infamous Quigley Report...... which the NZ government commisioned and then ignored and vilified when, horror of horrors, it went against their ridiculous and unworkable peacenik views by recommending that we actually retain an ACF, and take up the F-16 deal offered by the Yanks.

At the present time all major defence decisions, aquisitions, disposals and appropriations are on hold here until after the election, July 27th.

I have a bit of a stake in this. In recent years I've become active politically, and in the past eighteen months I have become heavily involved with two groups seeking both the reinstatement of the RNZAF Air Combat wing, and the elevation in government priorities of Defence generally.
We took the government to court over the decision to scrap the FJ fleet, and lost; went to appeal, and lost; and at the same time we have carried out a public and media campaign, and lobbied both the National opposition and its major potential coalition partner, the ACT party, to the extent that both have adopted the reinstatement of the ACF as stated policy.
It's been a long hard year and a half, and in five weeks we'll know the results....everything crossed, chaps!
So the selfish b@stard in me hopes you don't get your TA4 just yet, as I'd like to use them as a LIFT too.

[Flap62]

Ivchenko,

having the freedom to have our own ideas, make them work, reap the rewards if they do and face ruin if they fail. And nobody to tell us what to do.

2 Scenarios:

1.) As a business man you have an ambitious business plan which you have to sell to the client. Its a new product and you've put in lots of time and effort to make it work. This is the big presentation to the banks and you have to make it work.

2.)As leader of a 4-ship you've just dropped of the tanker and have to lead your formation through a FEZ, bad weather and then onto a live range for LGB and HE rocket attack on the target. You have to come up with the plan, make it work and reap the rewards if it's a success. And nobody tells you what to do.


Compare and contrast.

[BlueWolf]

Ivchenko

The freedom to have your own ideas.

Pause a moment, and reflect on the way your world would be if you didn't enjoy that privilege.

What a great shame it is that so many people in civilian life have so little idea of what it is that the military actually do.

Imagine, if you will, a world where there was no military working quietly behind the scenes, 24/7/52, preserving the freedoms you take for granted.

The professionalism of these people continues, and shines through, in spite of the abuse, contempt, and derision, levelled at them by the ignorant, the uninformed, and the unappreciative.

Assisting retirees to reassimilate into civilian life is probably the least that the corporate world can do in return.

[STANDTO]

The compare and contrast that Flaps mentions is along the lines of wha Mike Beachyhead is trying to achieve with one of his courses at Thunder City - comparing the synergy of fast jets and fast paced business.

As long as we all recognise the part each other plays in the big picture, then the world will remain intact

[Ivchenko]

Flap62 and Bluewolf

I am totally and completely in agreement with everything you say; reading my earlier posts will make it clear that I was in no way critical, and most emphatically not unappreciative, of what the military do.

StandTo - yes, exactly.

Bluewolf - helping military retirees into the civvy world most definitely is something many civiian firms do. It's something I do, as I think I mentioned, and companies pay me to do it. The frustration I was expressing arises from the fact that we start at such a huge, and to my mind, unnecessary distance. I am not arguing that either (mil or civ) approach is "better", merely pointing out that I feel a greater degree of integration would benefit both worlds. It was the implication (in some, not all) of the earlier posts that the military way is the only way,and that if you can't hack it you are an inferior being, that I was responding to.

Flap the point you make by way of example is good in that it demonstrates in each case professionals operating at the limit of their ability, training and experience. And I don't need reminding that in only one situation can the consequences of a mistake be fatal.

However, it's not conclusive because it doesn't take into account the wider environment. The most important (by people employed) private sector employers today are small firms of less than 20 people. Staff counts in large companies are ever shrinking, and the concept of a job for life no longer exists. People are taking responsibility for their own careers, and for building their own sets of skills, attitudes of independence etc. This is happening on virtually every level throughout the country. Almost everbody in my social circle is self employed, and gets out of bed every morning having to motivate him or herself to do something which the market will want. That was the point and I find it is this approach that retiring senior officers find difficult, as they are used to having problems and challenges brought to them.

Again, I am a huge admirer of the military, have a number of mates in, or recently retired from, the RAF (including the excellent group from Valley and elsewhere who taught us how to fly formation at North Weald) and am trying to comment from an informed and constructive point of view.

Edited for cr@p English

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The info pack from Getfitta arrived in the post today. I shall be starting their program VERY soon, ie this afternoon.

Paragraph deleted for being an apology that went wrong. Twas saying sorry for some dumb comments in my original post.

[getout773]

Im really sorry the Navy thought you weren’t good enough for them, however if you spent more time training and learning how to iron (ask mummy) and less time on pprune whinging then maybe you would still have a job

[StopStart]

Please stop

:rolleyes:

[solotk]

The info pack from Getfitta arrived in the post today. I shall be starting their program VERY soon, ie this afternoon

You forgot to say....

.....To esteemed Military colleagues,

Please disregard all after "Afternoon"

WEBF

Now go back and edit the message before you cause another series of sense of humour failures.

Tony

[teeteringhead]

I hope this doesn't count as a "Sense of Humour Failure".

WEB F, if I may, some observations on your plight.

1. I don't know you, but you are obviously intruiging enough to catch and hold the attention of a number of us.

2. From a trawl of your posts over the past month (thank you pprune search engine) I can see that you are very well educated, and have an impressive grasp of higher strategy in defence matters, can write well and are clearly computer literate. (Hang in there Webby, I'm not taking the P%ss).

3. You are young (don't know what the age limit for starting "tiffy" training is, but it's young from where myself and most of your pporune "advisors" are looking) and (in your own way) idealistic. You are loyal and patriotic, which is pleasantly unusual in a young (?) civilian.

4. And yet ...... You have the benefit of some superb advice from many who must clock up hundreds of years total military service (solotk has given much particularly useful advice). ...... and yet, you seem strangely reluctant to concentrate ALL your efforts on what you profess to want so much.

5. Consider: in the last month you have made 52 pprune posts on 20 different threads, in 2 separate forums (fora?), the Mil and JB. You have started 4 other threads than this one.

6. You did not post during what I deduce to be your RN service of 27 May - 12 June (?). Yet during THE WEEK BEFORE you started training, you made 22 posts and started 2 threads. Amongst these, you quoted a letter written to your MP (about SHAR) "a couple of weeks ago". The letter ran to nearly 3500 words. Probably terrificly true and erudite (too much for this simple stick and rudder man - alright - cyclic and pedals man), and good prep for an M Phil in Defence studies - but not for basic military training. At the very least you could have been sh@gg!ng yourself stupid - probably would have helped the shuttle runs too!;)

7. OK, so that's in the past, and you have (sort of, I sense reluctantly) admitted your errors in preparation. So let's look at SINCE 12 June. 13 posts on this thread, and 17 others (including starting a JB thread on "Philosophical Song Lyrics"), and
The info pack from Getfitta arrived in the post today. I shall be starting their program VERY soon you don't SEEM to have done much in the 10 days since you were chopped. To succeed (certainly in the military, which is what I know most about, but probably in anything) you must give it your ALL, ALL THE TIME. And this you don't, in all honesty, seem to do.

8. Which leads me at last to a conclusion. Whatever your lifelong dreams (which I can understand - I wanted to fly from about the age of 8), I really really don't think you are suited to a UNIFORMED military life. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there are many ways you can loyally serve the country (and even the RN).

9. Have you considered, academia, defence journalism, defence procurement or whatever. You should always have Plan B, and perhaps now is the time to dust it off and DO SOMETHING.

10. Sorry to have hogged so much of the screen, but it needed saying!

[rivetjoint]

Kind of related....

Thanks to solotk for introducing me to getfitta. Signed up the day you first mentioned it here, just about to start week 2. Worth its weight in gold for its motivation powers!

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Solotk

I have started to use Getfitta. It seems really good. Thankyou for giving me the address. Oh and thanks for all the other advice you (and others) have given me.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Just want to make a point here... in my experience, there are some people who just have to have the last word. It doesn't matter what it is about or even if it has any relevance but they just have to have that final utterance. You know the type of people I mean, for example when finishing a phone conversation they are always going "bye... yep, bye.... bye bye.... see you... yep, bye..." ad infinitum. Well there are people like that on PPRuNe. They will post and post and post and it doesn't matter what the topic, they have to have the last word.

My point? well, based on the extensive experience of running this website and having read this thread with fascination, I have to conclude that WEBF is one of those people. It is not a criticism as such, just an observation and a trait that many people have but a trait that can possibly be to your detriment, especially in the military and especially so if you are just starting out.

Having been through the military myself, although many years ago and not in this country, I can still remember my basic training, especially the first week where we underwent the classic breaking down of the individual spirit in preparation for the team building and the subsequent physical fitness regime. In my case it was for entry into a paratroop brigade and the training was going to be long and arduous. Three weeks of basic training followed by a month of more specialised instruction and consolidation before a pleasant three weeks in jump school. In all, the training lasts 13 months before you are qualified and fully active. All through this period and especially at the start you wonder what it's all about and at times you are reduced to tears, but if you have it in your character you get support from your mates and get through the lows. By the end, you able to realise where it has all been leading and all the time you remind yourself that those instructors have been through all this too.

You rapidly learn that you will never have the last word, even if you know you are right. There is no logic, in fact there is a reverse logic at play and it has been described in earlier posts why some things are done in the way they are much more eloquently than I am able to.

So, to WEBF may I suggest that you now just sit back and read the priceless advice that has been offered to you on this thread and do not post any more words, whether excuses or statements. You have seen how easily many posters on here have aggressively attacked you for your stubborness whilst trying to defend your comments. It is this habit of coming back and repeating a point that has already been made, endlessly, especially after the good advice was provided. If you are able to take on board all the advice AND you are able to change your attitude then you will no doubt have no problem if and when you decide to re-apply.

To help you in this quest I am going to close this thread. The reasons should be clear by this stage but I will reiterate them here. Like the telephone conversation mentioned at the beginning, this will go on and on ad-infinitum unless I close it. Also, it could be the first step to proving to yourself that you can overcome the need to have the last word. Grit your teeth and get used to it because if you honestly want that career in the navy I would imagine you will have to work your way high up the ranks before you are going to have that 'last word' privelege.

Finally, because I am no longer in the military and I have the power to do so I am having the last word. QED