Military hardware as a civ asset

[STANDTO]

Just heard on the news about a fat albert mercy dash between hospitals.

Some time ago, I wondered about the feasability of using mil crews and hardware to fill the yawning gap in police aviation. The question is, (and I accept assets are stretched), whether in down time (ie when not at war/peacekeeping etc) would this fill a training gap and a pressing need?

Answers on a postcard etc etc

[CrabInCab]

Eh, hello, downtime? Not war fighting or peacekeeping? Could I get a ticket to your planet please!

[BEagle]

Most UAS QFIs were trained in the art of flying 'Civil Defence' police observers and fire officers back in the late '80s and early '90s. A wonderful relic of the 'post nuclear' duck-and-cover mentality of the 1960s - but great fun, it has to be said. Hence we got rather good at flying 'free nav' routes in the 'dog using a 50 thou whilst PC Plod or Capt Flack sorted themselves out.

Hence I once offered the use of some ex-UAS QFIs and my fleet of aircraft as a 'contingency' aid to aerodrome perimeter surveillance during a TacEval some years ago, thinking that it might get the stn some smartie points. But the squirearchy exhibited NFI... So the hell with them; if Mil crews and 'free' ac won't be accepted for such things, then the bean counters can damn well pay the true bill for 'official' assistance!

[STANDTO]

crabby by name, crabby by nature!!!

It seems to me that in the UK we pay for everything twice. Most UK Police air support units work on very limited budgeted flying hours. Added to that is the lies of air ambulance type work, customs and excise work
It would seem to make sense that with all that expertise lying around. As I said, I know everyone is busy, but with an integrated approach thenperhaps it could be a route to some real reinvestment.

Think about the possibilities, the widening of training possibilities and more flying hours and it might not be such a silly idea.

Anyone shed any light on the Herc job, by the way?

[StopStart]

Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_2042000/2042629.stm)

[Talking Radalt]

By pure coincidence but sort of on the same subject, in tonight's "Falklands Bound" program Jim Davidson was seen congratulating a Bristow crew for "the best military flying I've seen in 20 years".
Cheers Jim. Obviously a Brandon off-load going on when they were filming!
:rolleyes:

[john du'pruyting]

The use of mil hardware may well fill a training need for the mil, but it is not really needed to fill any yawning gaps (north of the border excepted). Other than the lake district, the central section of the east coast and Kent, England and Wales are fairly well provided for with Emergency Service aircraft (Police in particular, the HEMS / Air Ambo issue is perhaps not quite as comprehensive). They are becoming (I hope!) an integral part of emergency service operations and as such, need to be available for use as often as possible, not just if the mil can release them. There will, however always be a requirement for the services to step in with their equipment and crews when we peasants are not up to the job (SAR, anything thats really dangerous ;) or work that the CAA will not permit us to undertake). This is only right, in the end it ( the equipment) all belongs to the taxpayer.

[Anton van Dellen]

SK turned out with RAF medic to downed twin engine near Uttox in Staffs some 14 months ago - was a pleasure to see them and all medics integrated very well on the ground.

2 HEMS, 1 ASU and 1 SK - not bad going!!

Would be delighted to see more SKs, esp. at nite.:cool:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

I saw that too Radalt but....

where do you think Bristow get most of their pilots from?

[PercyDragon]

Actually, I don't think it was Bistow. It was British International Helicopters,,,which, I think, is the opposition. Or it was when I was with them some years ago.

[high spirits]

STANDTO,
Hate to criticise what is actually a good idea, but where do we magic the extra hours from. It's difficult enough staying current at the moment. We already do Military Aid to Civil Powers anyway.

[STANDTO]

JDP

Personally, and having worked on your side of the pond with ASU's, I don't think there is enough aviation kit available for the police role. Consider GMP (one helo) and then compare it to the air assests of the slightly smaller acreage of LAPD.

The integration of mil/civ assets is, in my mind sensible. They might not always be available but when they are, every little would help already over stretched police resources

[STANDTO]

High Spirits

As with any good idea, there is a cost implication. But

if you compare the cost of setting up a new ASU, or supplementary a/c to an existing ASU (inc crew and equipment), the extra hours cost starts to look a little more attractive. Also, I'm not talkking about the current level of mil assistance, but using mil air support much more in the way of a police /Air amb unit on a fully available basis.

[MarkD]

From what I read in the papers here and on the Irish BB, integration between the cops and the mil is unfavourably compared to the British private sector model, with a Defender laid up in UK because of disputes over whether it can safely carry the cops equipment within mil tolerances...

Maybe you boys might sort it out better but...

[Talking Radalt]

High Spirits,
MACP still cost money! Remember when Yorkshire turned in to a deep water port a couple of years ago? A well known rotary wing heavy llift outfit rushed to the rescue, flinging sandbags at everyone, mashing up a school sports field and destroying a Do-It-All car park.
All was going swimmingly and much free beer was pledged by the (saved) Black Sheep brewery.....until MOD presented the Chief Fire Officer with the bill!:eek:

[teeteringhead]

A few points to add to the debate:

1. Military Aid is charged for by the GOVERNMENT, not the MoD. MoD may produce the bill, but the Treasury gets the cash!

2. GENUINE life-saving tasks (primarily SaR) are never charged for.

3. There are serious constitutional problems (the threat of martial law) on routine assistance to the police by the military. Any constitutional lawyers out there to comment? Even in NI, little (or nothing) could be done without at least the knowledge and acquiecence (and sometimes the presence) of the RUC/NIPS.

[STANDTO]

I would envisage the police service taking primacy in tasking an coordination with suitable mil background help, even to the stage of relivery of a/c . I think the last post demonstrates just how wellthe whole thing would have to be thought out.

[canberra]

the ambulance authority in england and gps in scotland can call the arcc for an sar sk to transfer patients to hospital, in fact these are quite a common occurance. the mod is meant to bill them but seldom does. on the subject of police helicopters every item ive read on them theyve stated that they are not for sar, in fact none of them has a winch.

[STANDTO]

Indeed you would be right. If you ever get the chance to sit in a police config squirrel you'll see why. F1 equipped models probably couldn't get off the ground with any xtra kit. Some of the 'bigger' a/c are a bit better but SAR isn't what they are there for anyway. There is however, the odd tale of derring do, with observers perched precariously on the skids etc etc.

The police role covers much more, with one of the main ones being containment. Having an asset(s) quickly available is a huge help.

[YellaRednGrey]

Just thought it might be worth pointing out a few facts on the original story - 'The Herc Mercy Dash'. The situation arose when a seriously ill RTA patient in Inverness needed specialist ECMO treatment (I could explain the medical aspects but that's not too relevant) at Glenfield hospital, Leicester, which is the only UK hospital to offer such treatment to adults.

The original plan was to employ a Sea King to pick up the team at Glenfield, fly them to Inverness Hospital, and return with the patient. Eventually, with the clock ticking for the poor chap, other options were explored and authority was given to use the C-130 via E Mids Airport and Kinloss. A Sea King was still used for the Kinloss - Inverness return leg.

It must be stressed that this was probably a one-off and was only possible because no civil fixed-wing aircraft were available for the task, otherwise they would have got the job. The civil option is always explored first before even a Sea King is tasked for Medevac tasks of this nature.