View Full Version : Duals and Trusting others aboard
Michael Gee
8th Jul 2015, 18:54
Some time ago and having not flown for 17 years I asked a local flying school for a couple of circuits. We got into a dual contol R22 and the instructor climbed away into the circuit. He offered the cyclic to feel ---
Have you ever done this ?
Who is that person in the other seat?
I wonder what that passenger with you on the other side with contols in his hands could do, or others aboard might do in an attempt to disrupt a flight.
What might your actions be ?
Ian Corrigible
8th Jul 2015, 19:23
What might your actions be ?
I think you should be en garde.
http://www.pistonheads.com/inc/images/getmecoat.gif
Were your credentials, i.e. license (even if no current medical) checked prior to the flight? And did the instructor stay 'hands on'?
I/C
Hughes500
8th Jul 2015, 20:25
is it any different to doing 60 mph on an A road with someone doing the same speed the other way with less than 10 ft clearance !!!!!!!!!!
feathering tickles
8th Jul 2015, 20:37
"Duels"...brilliant.
Luther Sebastian
9th Jul 2015, 05:16
Hughes500 - also brilliant.
I've never offered the controls to an unknown passenger, but I have flown a dual control machine with such in the other seat. Obviously, they were told not to touch anything, but luckily no incidents.
As for cars coming the other way, that's an accepted risk on the road. Dual controls with unknwn passengers is one you don't necessarily have to take.
Phil
Isn't the point of you going out with an instructor, for you to take the controls at some point? Or is this an existential musing on the risks for instructors?
Having done many trial lessons of the 'red letter day' kind in my last job, you stay alert as it's possible to be, while giving the punter the opportunity to experience the controls. But the risk is there, has always been there, and always will. Heard a few scary stories though, m:eek:
Are we talking just incorrect push or shove, or a concerted effort to destroy the machine etc ? you would not require duel controls to scare the C**p out of me!! a concerted effort to grab mine would suffice.
Years ago i had a few lessons in a glider the instructor explained the controls & the concept winch launch, I was then show 14 ins of lead pipe It was explained DO NOT freeze on the control's or :ouch:
Hughes500
9th Jul 2015, 15:27
500 e people are being prosecuted for showing 14" !!!!!
Michael Gee
9th Jul 2015, 17:17
Hi I/C
No licence at the time - No medical also - they did not have any info on me except perhaps my car number.
The point has to be made that there is a great risk not only from the seat opposit but from others onboard especially in helicopters of the light type with 4 or 5 seats especially if they are not vetted prior to any flight.
We hear of Airliners having to put down at a non scheduled airfields due to a passenger causing trouble - how would handle a situation in your 44, 500, 206 e.t.c.? - always wear a bone dome - switch hydaulics to off - lets be knowing
jymil
11th Jul 2015, 17:55
Your story sounds like a normal trial flight and it's very purpose is to give the student an impression what it's like and whether it's worth spending money on doing a PPL. If you needed a medical first, then nobody would do trial flights.
It's up to the instructor to judge how much control he can let the student have, and this is indeed a potential risk for trial flights. Another point for the R22 is that a student should receive awareness training prior to manipulating the controls according to SFAR 73.
No emergency procedures with passengers is the rule. And I don't think it's a good idea to do a trial flight with passengers in the back in any case.
meloz
11th Jul 2015, 19:33
Taxi drivers suffer the same risks each and every day. Let's not magnify the current hype.
:=
jayteeto
12th Jul 2015, 09:55
A simple answer is that every single student pilot is in this position on trip 1
nigelh
12th Jul 2015, 22:53
I say ban all flights with anyone in the helicopter who could get to the controls .
A good solution would be to put all passengers in handcuffs for the duration of the flight . I think the CAA would probably go for that idea as they have put all operators in straight jackets for the last 20 years or so in the name of safety !!
To be fair it is getting much safer now with so few helicopters left flying in the UK ..
Ps. Michael I think you have security issues that need dealing with ..
Bronx
13th Jul 2015, 11:20
Michael
The point has to be made that there is a great risk not only from the seat opposit but from others onboard especially in helicopters of the light type with 4 or 5 seats especially if they are not vetted prior to any flight.Does it? :confused:
The point has to be made that it's been SOP all over the world for decades.
I can't rule out the possibility that there may have been an 'incident' at some time somewhere but, if there was a flight safety issue, the regulators would have banned it.
Hmm. It's also SOP in many parts of the world to have the pilot refuel with rotors running and nobody at the controls, but it's still not a good idea! :)
phil
nigelh
13th Jul 2015, 14:42
Phil , I have to disagree with you there as there are many times in certain areas that doing just that is the best way and has been done that way for literally decades !!!!! You just need to know how to do it that's all ....
Yes, in the Arctic with a dodgy battery and nil communications, possibly, but not in a staging area with plenty of people around who can do the fuelling for you and all you are saving is 5 minutes.
Phil
Let's not go round those buoys again - we did the rotors running refuelling with no pilot at the controls to death after the last fatal at the Grand Canyon.
nigelh
14th Jul 2015, 16:31
Who won last time !! ( but agree with Paco,s point ) ...
mdovey
14th Jul 2015, 18:05
In summary, in most jurisdictions, if the flight manual says you can't leave the aircraft, rotors turning, then you can't! If the flight manual says you can, then providing you follow any instructions as regards securing the controls, it's at the pilots discretion.
Subject to what the flight manual says, then those who leave the helicopter whilst rotors turning couldn't see the problem (providing it was a flight idle, controls secured etc.), and those that don't couldn't see why you'd take the risk.
Matthew