Dornier to split up, 728 stopped (merged)

[Volume]

from StaNet (http://www.stanet.de) :

Oberpfaffenhofen: Dornier-Mitarbeiter werden gekündigt
Den rund 3700 Mitarbeiter des insolventen Flugzeugherstellers Fairchild-Dornier wird dieser Tage die Kündigung ins Haus flattern. Stichtag ist 30. Juni. Wobei die Belegschaft in "aktiv" und "passiv" eingeteilt wird. Wer unter "aktiv" fällt, erhält das Angebot der Weiterbeschäftigung - allerdings unter völlig neuen Bedingungen. Die "Passiven" können sich nach einem neuen Arbeitsplatz umsehen. Das Unternehmen selbst soll in fünf Bereiche aufgeteilt werden, die als selbständige Unternehmen weiter laufen. Das Entwicklungs-Programm für den 728er soll, bis zur endültigen Entscheidung durch Bombardier, auf Eis gelegt werden. Bombardier aber will sich erst zum Ende des Jahres festlegen, ob ein Einstieg bei FD in Oberpfaffenhofen Sinn macht. Bis dahin wird eine Auffanggesellschaft gegründet, der Chef der vorläufige Insolvenzverwalter Eberhard Braun sein wird.

Dornier employes will be fired. All 3700 employes will get their notice of termination of work contrakt in the next days. Last day of emploment will be June, 30th. Part of the workforce will be classified ´active´ and can get reemployed in one of the 5 companies in which dornier will be split. Other part is classified ´passive´ and will lose their job without chance of reemployment in Oberpfaffenhofen.
The 728 Project will be stopped and eventually reactivated by the end of the year if Bombardier decides to buy Dormier. They will decide by end of the year.

Sad news :(

[411A]

Not really surprising. Altho the 728 appears to be a rather nice design, two large companies already produce fine aircraft. Was a third really needed?
Wonder if the 728 was a rather "gold plated" (read: extra high cost) design?

[VnV2178B]

I actually agree with you 411A, the FaiDor product was well (over) engineered and the production facilities second to none.

The investment made in the infrastructure should be useful if anyone takes over the 728 or finds another use for them.

I would like to have seen it succeed if only because it was a European design and it's nothing to do with the fact I was one of the first to be shown the door, honest.

VnV...

[Squawk7777]

I had a talk a while ago with a Fairchild/Dornier maintenance guy in SAT who was working on the 328TP. He basically stated the same as VnV. The problem with the 328 besides the high price is that you need a mature mx department. Air Wisconsin (United Express) is returning some 328TPs already.

May I add that the lenghly certification process is a huge part of Dornier's collapse. Dornier - being German - was exposed to the all too familiar bureaucratic process in Germany. I honestly believe that Dornier could have survived would they had been located outside Germany.

(Hell, you can't even take a crap without a prior written permission. By the time you get it - you went through 46 different people who then referred you to 78 other bureaucrats and told you to correctly fill out document 78A subpara d.2.b.III and submit it to Mr.X who will get back to you when he's got time and returned from his vacation - you realize that it is ... too late!)

Internally, so I heard there were lots of frictions within the company.

Not to forget that the Do428 had to be cancelled, too. Especially Midwest Express was delighted.

Well, that is the last great German aviation company that we have to bury. I am kinda sad, because I liked most of their pre- and postwar designs.

I guess we can see the lighter side and say that no more German commercial aircraft manufacturer can go broke (after the Cargolifter and Dornier)

Deutschland, das Zukunftsland!

[Squawk7777]

411A - I think the RJ market could have supported a third aircraft manufacturer. If you look at the BA (Business Aviation) sector there's fierce competion between Gulfstream, Dassault, Bombardier, and Cessna, and those companies are doing well so far. All of them -except Cessna- are testing or developing new types. The most intensive sales battleground seems to be the mid-range to long range aircraft section.

Now, the RJ section only has two players:

Canada vs. Brazil!

[hptaccv]

..so sad to see a company with a history go down the drain, especially with such a nice plane in the starting blocks...

:(

[Volume]

Squawk7777, I totally disagree about the role of the german authority in lenghtening the certification process.

Of course there are many many to much bureaucrats, but the ones in germany are not the worst in the world.
Earning a VVZ (preliminary certification) for a minor modified plane takes two or three days in germany, but getting the overflight permission for france for such an (national only) certified plane takes a month. You´ll recieve the permission normaly at the time you have already cancelled (or unlawfull finished) your trip...

Try to get through the U.S. or Israel immigration procedure (as a tourist) and compare it to germany.
Try to make a flight training camp with your glider club in Austria and try to get the permission for flight training there.
Try to get your SpeedCanard certified in France (no problem in Germany or the U.S.)

If an aircraft company doesn´t try the ´Oh we make this all much different to save money´ trick, certification in germany is really not much of a problem. Ask some companies doing professional business with the authority what they think about it. Ask big aircraft operators how their problems are solved quickly and easy by the authority. Don´t listen to the rumours from the ´experts´ or the managers that run aircraft companies without knowing anything about aviation.

So please don´t blame the end of Dornier on the german authorities
:mad:

[Ace Rimmer]

Expect the Bombardier decision about the 728/928 programme a good deal sooner than the end of the year. More like the end of next month. There are a lot of reasons why Bomb are likley to buy.
For example:
1) They don't have a product that can compete with the boys from Brazil in the 90-110 seat market (the CRJ900 tops out at 86 seats).

2) They have a history of taking on projects and companies that are almost dead in the water and turning em around (Learjet, Canadair, DeHavilland, Shorts, Johnson and Evenrude outboards) it's what they do.

3) They want to keep in the German government's good books - there's a HUGE train deal in the offing.

On the flip side you can bet your booties Bomb will drive a hard bargain - they'll want to see the end of the 328 -TP and JET (which is pretty much on it's way out anyway - the backlog on the JET only goes out as far as September anyway). Plus they'll want all kinds of loan guarentees fro the German government.
Technically, I reckon Bomb want the 728 and more especially the 928 it's just a question of thrashing out the cost of aquisition.

[Alpha Leader]

Talking about "Cargolifter": latest reports (eg. in'Der Spiegel' (http://www.spiegel.de) ) report that Boeing might be interested in picking that one up (no pun intended).

[Torquelink]

Ace is right. Bombardier have a history of picking up what prove to be excellent investments at knock down prices. I don't know about Learjet but when they bought Canadair, Shorts and de Havilland Canada the respective governments committed untold millions by way of grants, matched investment, subsidies and guarantees. Bombardier need a new larger model to top out their product line and match the Brazilians. They abandoned their own BRJ-X study because the R+D bill would be too high but, guess what, it would have had 5 abreast seats, two underwing CF34-10s etc etc. This way, based on past experience they get the aircraft they always wanted, not to mention one of the most advanced manufacturing plants in Europe, for a fraction of the cost of starting from scratch. The upside for FD people is that a number of jobs will be saved. The downside is that Bombardier are b******s to work for!

[ironbutt57]

Sad that in this era of bean counters....good airplanes don't count..just "cost effective" (cheap) ones....'coz by the time the airline has to pay the price for the cheap ones....the bean counter's gone, with his/her bonus of course..:mad: :mad: :rolleyes:

[Elliot Moose]

Just curious there Torquelink,
What makes the folks that invented the Skidoo so terrible to work for? From where I sit, I see pretty good things mostly. I have seen the downside in the time I've worked for them, but generally it's been no worse than working for any other company that has about 85000 employees. You get really big, and theres bound to be a huge trail of paper pushers and bean counters, but it's no worse than anyplace else.
There is no doubt that they buy cheap and drive a hard deal, but that is how they made it from building skidoos in J. Armand's garage to being the third largest aircraft manufacturer in the world. ;) If that makes them people of questionable parentage, so be it, but to me it's just wise business.

[PaperTiger]

Bombardier originally announced a decision would be made 'by the end of June' in order to avoid losing the team to layoffs.
Events may have overtaken this but I'm not familiar with German labour laws and recall reading that their 'layoffs' are not in fact effective until some considerable time after the announcement.

If they do take the 728/928 programs, will the CRJ900 die a quiet death ?

[Squawk7777]

Volume - I don't agree!

First of all, I am not too familiar with the certification progress' in Germany, but according to the book "Deutsche Motorflugzeuge nach 1945" (I think it is published by Motorbuch Verlag) the Speed Canard had to be modified from its original design in order to receive the LBA airworthiness certificate.

I am not saying that the LBA is solely to blame for Dornier's decline. It just outlines the problem you run into when you have a business in Germany (and also Europe). Compare Dornier with Embraer quickly. For flight testing Embraer built a 16404 foot (5001 meters!) runway at the Gaviao Peixoto Industrial centre. You think that this is possible in Germany? By the time you mentioned this as an idea, you'd have 10 environmental groups protesting, and political discussions that basically kill the idea. Take a look back at the discussions involved in the Eurofighter programme. I agree that political discussions are necessary, since they are a form of democracy however, in Germany they cost businesses a lot of money and time. I still partly blame the German authorities for the fall of Dornier. Do you honestly believe that Dornier flight tested the 328Jet to its full extend in Germany? No, they couldn't because of noise abatement procedures, etc. . Some flight test were conducted at SAT in D-BALL which was wearing the Midwest Express colours. This is actually what Dornier employees and engineers in SAT told me. And I think that they are the best ones to ask about Dornier!

I am probably as sad to see Dornier go as you. But why do you think that Dornier was so slow in developing and getting their aircraft certified? Certainly not, because Dornier's employees' (ex I must say :( )were lazy and slow.

I am the first one to support a European aircraft with potential besides Airbus. But can you really transform an excellent idea into a successful business in Europe these days with all the bureaucratic bu!!sh!t?

Oh, about immigration procedures. No doubt that US immigration procedures are lenghly and that many immigration officers are not very knowledgable. But have you ever seen the process in obtaining a visa ( Aufenthaltsgenehmigung) in Germany from people coming from the former Eastern bolck countries? That might surprise you. The reason I know about it is because our band invited some jazz musicians from St. Petersburg. And let me tell you ... the German authorities scared even me!

[spagiola]

Bombardier has apparently decided it will NOT buy the 728/928 program. Story is at http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_comm.jsp?view=story&id=news/cfd0618.xml

Sad.

[EX FTE]

Just released on the Bombardier website in Montreal:

"Bombardier Decides Not To Proceed Further With Fairchild Dornier

Montréal, June 18, 2002

Bombardier announced today that its technical, commercial and financial review of Fairchild Dornier’s 728/928 aircraft programs is now completed. Bombardier’s conclusion is not to proceed any further.

Bombardier appreciated the professionalism, support and responsiveness shown by the German government and the Bavarian authorities as well as by Fairchild Dornier’s management and employees. In addition to its technical analysis, Bombardier undertook detailed discussions with customers, suppliers and related stakeholders over a five-week period. However, these discussions did not achieve the results required for these programs to meet Bombardier's investments standards."

[Konkordski]

ATI is reporting that two other investors are talking to FD about stumping up for the 728jet and 328jet.

[MarkD]

Toronto Globe and Mail (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/common/FullStory.html&cf=tgam/common/FullStory.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&vg=BigAdVariableGenerator&date=20020619&dateOffset=&hub=frontpage&title=Front&cache_key=frontBusiness&current_row=2&start_row=2&num_rows=1)

Not looking good for the 728/928.

[Flip Flop Flyer]

But I'm sure the guys at Embraer are all smiles ... only competitor in the large size regional-jet segment gone. Sad, looked like a nice aeroplane and probably well built if the traditional german engineering standards were kept.

Imagine having only Airbus or Boeing to supply the hardware ....

All hope gone?

[MarkD]

Avro RJX anyone? :D

[brabazon]

Flat Spin

It's because BAE Systems is now concentrating on defence contracts rather than civil - that's where the money's to be made at the moment.

The Avro RJ had become almost a cottage industry what other manufacturer would consider building only 20 odd aircraft a year.

The real shame is that they didn't invest in the 146 in the mid-80s - the 146-300 should have had more powerful engines, but BAe bottled out and kept with the -R5 engines. The Avro RJ was better and the engine manufacturer began to support the engine with turnkey packages and guarantees. BAe also benefitted from the demise of Fokker.

As for the RJX it looked a far better aircraft with more powerful engines, improved performance etc etc.

Oh well there's a book to be written on the history of BAE- any takers

[Nopax,thanx]

Governments, dear boy.....too busy buying stuff from overseas to give a lift to our own industry!

- how long before BA bought Airbuses? (French but with plenty of UK content)

- how long before UK Mod bought B-N Islanders?

- how come the Pembroke stayed in RAF service so long, when the Jetstream had been available for years?

....and that's just the tip of the iceberg!

They expect the Aerospace companies to get export orders, but when your own Government won't support the product, how on earth can they expect foreign buyers to be interested?

[411A]

Well at least there is still the Nimrod..was it not announced that these were to built...again? OR another refit?
Then there is that Euro "something" turboprop transport...seems like reinventing the C130.

[MarkD]

On the Irish board at the mo. is a little discussion of EI's occasional use of 11/29 at DUB for 146 take-offs, offering a little relief of the main 10/28 - I don't have the exact figures but I think someone mentioned it was about the same length as LCY or perhaps shorter - either way I can't see an EMB, a CRJ or an A318 having much fun on it...

Australian fumes issues aside, I've never had a problem as SLF on a four-hairdryer a/c, either with Loganair [couldn't believe the "shove in the back"] or EI. Speed aside I'd prefer them to 717s or RJs if only for those four pods!

[Ace Rimmer]

Hmmmmm well I got that wrong. Got a call from Bombardier last night it seems that there were a number of sticking points relating to labour laws and so on. On top of that discussions with potential customers and suppliers didn't produce the desired results. Ah well unless there's somebody else out there with $1.4 bn then its adios 728/928.
Bet there was a huge party in Sao Jose dos Campos last night.

[VnV2178B]

Airliners.net (wash my mouth out :) ) posters seem to think that there's a joint bid been hatched by the Dornier and Nestle families. This seems a bit far fetched but strange things are going on in the world.

Alternatively, Alenia : more likely, perhaps.

Anyone in Oberp. got any REAL information ?


VnV...

(I would love to go back to my flat in Wessling!!!!)

[Torquelink]

Elliot,

I don't know which bit of the company you worked for but my experience - and that of many friends and former colleagues - was in Regional and Business Aircraft Divs. Here, management through fear was the general order of the day allied to an extraordinarily focused malevolence provided (BIG CAVEAT) you were not of French Canadian origin. Believe you me, this was not some figment of of a fevered and paranoid imagination and, while I was fortunate enough to move on many moons ago, friends still there tell me that little has changed. It has always surprised and rather saddened me that the company has achieved such success while treating so many of its people so shabbily.