View Full Version : New RAF Rank?
Have just watched a news item regarding the repatriation of those unfortunate Brits that were murdered in Tunisia. I noticed among the RAF pallbearers a couple of airmen with single chevrons on their sleeves. Is this a new rank?
The Helpful Stacker
2nd Jul 2015, 00:56
Did they have RAF Regiment 'mudguards' at the top of their sleeves?
The RAF Reg have had Lance Corporals for a while now, to give them equivalency with the Army, who they often operate with. "He is a Senior SAC" doesn't cut it when working with an organisation not renowned for their flexibility nor intelligence.
Back when I served on TSW (a unit who also spent a large amount of their time working alongside the Army) 'Senior SACs' would occasionally be given Acting Corporal rank in order that they could run dets on ops/exercises and have some semblance of rank to deal with the Army.
MAINJAFAD
2nd Jul 2015, 01:09
The Helpful Stacker is correct, the RAF Regiment have had Lance Corporal for the last few years. If memory serves it's a local acting unpaid rank and is done to allow a senior SAC gunner to act as a section 2IC, exactly as a Lance Corporal would do in the Infantry. It is done for valid operational reasons, especially when working with the Army.
Thanks to both. Have been out to long. I understand the Junior Tech rank has disappeared as well. Changes to many for an old fella!:confused:
Yozzer
2nd Jul 2015, 04:35
acting unpaid rank
This makes my blood boil. If our system is lacking, and clearly it is, then the rank, responsibility, and pay should be given. I have no issue with said rank being the exclusive domain of the RAF Regt, though these days multi-service operations/exercises, indeed squadrons are the norm, and if the 'need' extends to other trades, then the RAF should formally adopt the rank of Lance Corporal - NOW.
senior senior aircraftsman.....
Door Slider
2nd Jul 2015, 05:43
The rank of LCpl is not awarded locally. LCpl in the Army, RM and RAF all sit in the same pay grade, which incidentally also covers SAC and JT (the few that are left).
4Greens
2nd Jul 2015, 06:38
My Dad was a Lance Corporal in the RAF Regiment in the Second World War. He got paid a little extra.
ancientaviator62
2nd Jul 2015, 06:49
Yozzer,
speaking of unpaid ranks whe I was a J/T on 92 I had an 'oversigning chit' which gave me the responsibilities of a Corporal without either the prestige of the rank or the pay. I wonder if this system is still in operation.
Pontius Navigator
2nd Jul 2015, 07:06
Don't forget SAC Tech, another relatively new rank.
Ty Downsizer
Ok, true not a rank but an insignia, just like a chief tech?
PS, would an SAC(T) continue to wear that insignia after a successful change of trade?
downsizer
2nd Jul 2015, 07:24
SAC Tech is not a rank. It is an attainment of technical competency. The sit exactly level with non-technical SACs and therefore are....SACs.
Tankertrashnav
2nd Jul 2015, 08:55
My Dad was a Lance Corporal in the RAF Regiment in the Second World War. He got paid a little extra
As a former rock I was interested to learn that. In the immediate period after its formation in 1942 RAF Regiment personnel wore khaki battledress but with blue insignia. I guess the Lance Corporal rank "came across" from the army but was dropped fairly early on, until its reintroduction a few years back.
(PS - wrong thread P-N?) ;)
downsizer
2nd Jul 2015, 09:32
Ty Downsizer
Ok, true not a rank but an insignia, just like a chief tech?
PS, would an SAC(T) continue to wear that insignia after a successful change of trade?
Chf Tech is a recognised rank though and has powers of command over Sgts.
If an SAC Tech remustered they would only become an SAC Tech again if they remustered to a technical trade and completed the requisite requirements to be classed as a tech in the new trade.
ian16th
2nd Jul 2015, 10:15
when I was a J/T on 92 I had an 'oversigning chit' which gave me the responsibilities of a Corporal without either the prestige of the rank or the pay.
I had one in 1956!
Does that make my chit senior to yours? :ok:
ancientaviator62
2nd Jul 2015, 10:44
IAN,
my chit was issued in 1962 on 92 Sqn. So yours is definitely the senior.
We were both robbed ! When I suggested to the ENG O that he get me acting paid rank he thought that I should have been proud to have been so 'selected' !
212man
2nd Jul 2015, 11:02
This makes my blood boil. If our system is lacking, and clearly it is, then the rank, responsibility, and pay should be given
It would appear the pay is the same.....:ok:
Royal Air Force Pay Scales 2015 - 2016 - Armed Forces - RAF Officers Pay Rates - Other Ranks Pay Rates (http://www.armedforces.co.uk/rafpayscales.php)
Army Pay Scales 2015 - 2016 - Armed Forces - British Army Officers Pay Rates - Soldiers rates of pay Other Ranks Pay Rates (http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales.php)
ian16th
2nd Jul 2015, 12:23
The RAF has always undervalued technical skills.
In the USAF, anyone with the technical skills of a J/T or today's SAC(T) is in the Sergants Mess! In the RAF he's not even in the Cpl's Club.
langleybaston
2nd Jul 2015, 12:33
Clarification please.
In the army lance-corporal is a rank, not an appointment, this was introduced many years ago.
Is the RAF Regiment lance-corporal a rank or an appointment? I suspect the latter, thus no equality in fact.
goudie
2nd Jul 2015, 12:34
The RAF has always undervalued technical skills.As it demonstrated in the 1964 re-org. of ranks. Hasn't got it right since, it would seem
downsizer
2nd Jul 2015, 13:03
Is the RAF Regiment lance-corporal a rank or an appointment? I suspect the latter, thus no equality in fact.
Wrong, LCpl is a rank and all gunners now pass through it on the way to Cpl.
downsizer
2nd Jul 2015, 13:04
In the RAF he's not even in the Cpl's Club.
He'd be the only one in it if he was allowed in then mate, haven't had those since probably the early 90s!
Pontius Navigator
2nd Jul 2015, 13:37
Downsizer, Ty, I guess the individual will change his insignia after successfully passing his new trade course.
TTN, indeed, obviously finger trouble :)
Tankertrashnav
2nd Jul 2015, 14:52
Re undervaluing of technical skills, its not just the RAF. When a corporal in the REME at NATO HQ Brunssum, my son served alongside US Army sergeants of various grades who in terms of length of service alone would have barely have made Lance Corporal in the British army. In his own trade group there was a huge promotion block and it was very much "dead men's shoes".
Still, he's a civvy now, with no regrets that he jumped ship.
Krystal n chips
2nd Jul 2015, 15:18
"Undervaluing technical skills".....
In the very late 70's there was an exodus of such from the RAF, thanks to the blockage caused by the time promotion scheme, which, whilst if benefitted those who arrived in it's infancy, did nothing for later entrants. The PVR rate was "pretty high".
Thus, at Bruggen one fine day, some of us were "invited" to attend a "briefing".....this "briefing" was conducted by a two ringed cherub chops dispatched, presumably, from Innsworth.
At the front were the former Trade groups such as suppliers, cooks, MT, admin etc and at the rear, the technical side.
The "briefing" was conducted in a hectoring manner that would put a NK News presenter to shame.
Our "cherubic hero" proceeded to extol the virtues of Cpls Clubs, Messes etc and indeed all things Cpl as this was going to be the rank to be. Much applause from the front.....wall of ice at the rear...then came his demise when he asked the rear did we have any questions ?
I don't think he had ever met engineers, in person, before.....and often wonder if he was treated for stress and trauma when he arrived back in the UK.
Pontius Navigator
2nd Jul 2015, 15:38
KnC, a two ringer says it all. If you are going to promise free chips at least own the chip shop.