Hercules crashed in Medan Indonesia

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JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) — An Indonesian military spokesman says a Hercules C-130 plane has crashed into a residential neighborhood of Medan city in Sumatra.Indonesian television on Tuesday broadcast blurry images from the city of a downed aircraft in flames.Maj. Gen. Fuad Basya confirmed the crash but had no other details.

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Current news reported the aircraft crashed around 1208 LT (0508 UTC), 2 minutes after took off.



http://assets.kompas.com/data/photo/2015/06/30/1258291jersey-bunda9780x390.jpg

[Tarq57]

More here. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/69851464/indonesian-military-transport-plane-crashes-in-city-of-medan-30-killed)

Happened shortly after departure; pilot had asked to return due to a technical problem.

[susier]

Built in 1964...is it usual for a 50yo plane still to be in operation?


'According to the Aviation Safety Network, there have been 10 fatal crashes involving Indonesian military or police aircraft over the last decade.


The accidents put under a spotlight the safety record of Indonesia's aviation and its ageing commercial and military aircraft. Basya said the plane that crashed on Tuesday was built in 1964.'

[Kitbag]

Susier not only is it possible for 50 year old aircraft to still be operated but the RAF is now taking delivery of ac of that sort of age. B52s in the USAF are I think iro 60 years old. Shouldn't be an issue as long as maintenance is carried out correctly and any shortcomings rectified.

[susier]

Thank you, Kitbag. That sounds fair enough to me.

[Brian W May]

Certainly in the later years of the RAF Hercules, it was common for all the crew to be younger than the aircraft, but they were well maintained, ergo not a problem.

[fantom]

Hmm... BBC says 113 on board, Sky says only 12.

[deptrai]

re age of airframes...and B-52: maiden flight 1952, manufactured until 1962, the US plans to keep them in service well into the 2040ies...that will be 90 year old airframes. With proper maintenance, and updated components, no problem at all. "age" in years is a red herring anyway, flight hours is more important.

[DaveReidUK]

Hmm... BBC says 113 on board, Sky says only 12.

BBC report timed at around midday says "at least 12 crew members on board", presumably all among the 37 or more fatalities.

Indonesia transport plane crash: At least 37 killed - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33323419)

[A0283]

The BBC site already carries some better photos. Tail plus main ramp door lie inverted. One MLG wheel plus tire rolled out. One engine missing its cowling.

A very large crowd standing very close to a still smoking debris field. Hope all the fuel is out or gone and hope they did not carry ammo.

And hope critical parts remain where they are.

[MrSnuggles]

Swedish media is also on the ball.

Militärplan kraschade i bostadsområde i Indonesien - DN.SE (http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/militarplan-kraschade-i-bostadsomrade-i-indonesien/)

According to this, there were 12 crew members and 101 pax.

Please note the many iPhones in the crowd:

http://d3.dn-static.se/UploadedImages/2015/6/30/c0bf0643-e944-49ac-b14f-9769c6507c93/original.jpg?id=1294260

http://d3.dn-static.se/UploadedImages/2015/6/30/c0bf0643-e944-49ac-b14f-9769c6507c93/original.jpg?id=1294260

[Carbon Bootprint]

There appears to be much confusion over the precise number of POB. Indonesian police are quoted as saying that 50 were manifested on the flight from Medan, but that "12 crew" and more than 100 others were reportedly on the flight to Medan itself.

It had traveled from the capital, Jakarta, and stopped at two locations before arriving at Medan. The air force is still to trying to determine how many people got off or boarded during that journey. Many passengers were families of military personnel. Hitching rides on military planes to reach remote destinations is common in Indonesia, a sprawling archipelago that spans three time zones.

From the AP via New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/06/30/business/ap-as-indonesia-military-plane-crash.html?_r=0)

Other reports say the plane hit at least two houses and a hotel. It is believed some are still trapped inside the structures so there may be additional casualties on the ground.

[tdracer]

I've been through the Medan airport a few times. It is - quite literally - right in the middle of the city. I expect there will be a lot of casualties on the ground :uhoh:

[9 lives]

I know this will sound like a silly question, but what would be the "normal" seating capacity of a C130? If you exceeded that number of people, would overload or aft C of G become a risk? (or would a normal load of cargo be heavy/more dense that pax anyway)?

[blakmax]

what would be the "normal" seating capacity of a C130

In some Asian countries the capacity is limited by floor space and the size of the pasengers. In 1999 I once had the "pleasure" of sitting on the jump seat with five crew while another eleven people stood cramped on the flight deck. Why so crowded? The seats were taken out and ropes were strung across the cargo deck so the 169 other passengers could hold on.

It was a C-130B and my in-flight entertainment was to watch the condensation drip off the air conditioning ducts onto a strategically placed newspaper covering a device labelled "Essential Buss B".

In some countries define flight safety based on your ability to walk away from the landing. You walk away, it must have been a safe flight. Unfortunately the inverse outcome as in this case can be tragic.

Blakmax

[trashie]

Normal seating with webbing seats max POB was 92. During Cyclone Tracy in 1974 I had 185 POB on a C130A with 17 on the flight deck and others strapped to the ramp and on an Esky cooler

[evansb]

A crash of an Indonesian Air Force C-130 in 2009 was similar in nature.

Three previous known Indonesian Air Force C-130 losses:

C-130B A-1302 written-off 11 May 2009


C-130H-30 A-1324 written-off 5 Oct 1991


C-130H-MP A-1322 written-off 20 Nov 1985

(Courtesy of Bbadanov from the Land of Oz)

[Brian W May]

In the RAF Hercules K simulator, we used to give an exercise that pitchlocked the prop at rotate.

It's not "uncontrollable", but does have to be handled correctly . . .

We'll see . . .

Awaiting the storm of 'let's wait for the enquiry' posts.

[MTOW]

Step Turn, a B model Herc would have seating for 96 pax. That involves back to back webbing seats down the middle of the cargo compartment and a row along both walls. Five crew on top of that.

But as others have said, that's not the way it is done everywhere in the world.

[WingNut60]

Brian, or anyone else who knows the answer to a genuine question .....
This was a military flight from a military airport in Indonesia.
I am sure that there will be an enquiry. And there were certainly civilian fatalities, both in the aircraft and on the ground.


But is there likely to be a published report?

[Dan Winterland]

Indonesia does have an independent accident investigation body in their National Transportation Safety Committee and it's unusually open and transparent compared with other areas of Asia. However, this being a military accident, they may not be asked to investigate.

[A Squared]

In the RAF Hercules K simulator, we used to give an exercise that pitchlocked the prop at rotate.

It's not "uncontrollable", but does have to be handled correctly . . .



Pitch-locked prop at rotation wouldn't be a that big a deal. A prop malfunction with pitchlock is preferable to the same malfunction without pitchlock. Pitchlock prevents a uncontrolled overspeed and buys you time to get stabilized in the climb at a safe altitude before having to screw around with it. RPM will increase with airspeed, but that can be controlled with throttle reductions. There shouldn't be any aircraft controllability issues unless there's something else going on.

[JammedStab]

Pitch-locked prop at rotation wouldn't be a that big a deal. A prop malfunction with pitchlock is preferable to the same malfunction without pitchlock. Pitchlock prevents a uncontrolled overspeed and buys you time to get stabilized in the climb at a safe altitude before having to screw around with it. RPM will increase with airspeed, but that can be controlled with throttle reductions. There shouldn't be any aircraft controllability issues unless there's something else going on.

As the airspeed increases, you will have to bring the throttle of the affected engine further and further aft resulting in more rudder required to maintain control.

Not sure if that is considered a controllability issue. But it does have to be dealt with one way or another.

[A Squared]

As the airspeed increases, you will have to bring the throttle of the affected engine further and further aft resulting in more rudder required to maintain control.

Not sure if that is considered a controllability issue. But it does have to be dealt with one way or another.

Sure, all that is true. I guess what I was trying to say is that it isn't something that suddenly would require large and immediate control inputs to keep from departing controlled flight.

[RequestPidgeons]

An interesting discussion, but it never goes as per the text book. I presume the pitchlock (any time after V1) is based on a total prop oil loss - PP1 and PP2 on steady? It doesn't happen. My experience was that PP2 will always find some oil and send it to the prop so that the pitchlock will ratchet to a finer blade angle with all the attendant results, higher rpm, less throttle to play with, etc. My course of action would be to stay as low and slow as AUW will allow and recover to departure airfield - hopefully visually. If it is unstable you can always pull the handle when landing is assured - it might feather, it might decouple but it is not going to put you in too adverse a situation. I doubt the gearbox will disintegrate on you in that short time-frame.

I presume that a crew in a sim are not trying to manually pitchlock the prop during takeoff? That strikes me as flightdeck overload and we all know what happens next.

Another option is the fuel chop and decouple. Sure the prop may go off guage but in the circuit/visual I believe even the average pilot should land safely.

The bigger issues are going IMC and LSALT for recovery, a high DA or having the event happen at ETP/PSR. All need to be thought through, the ADAK P-3 accident makes interesting reading. (ETA - Another thought is that you may not even know you have a problem until you turn the sync servo off!)

We pulled the handle when landing was assured and got a feather, but it did seem to take a bloody long time for the prop brake to take effect!