Discussion Closed by Tidbinbilla

[Dick Smith]

I recently started a thread in relation to $400,000 in modifications required on a Citation 7 to be imported into Australia. Tidbinbilla closed the thread, saying

This would be more appropriate on an aircraft owners forum. This forum is for professional pilots.

In fact, I don’t know of any Citation 7s that are flown by private pilots. In this particular case it was a commercial company that was planning to import the Citation 7 to Australia and to employ quite a number of professional pilots to fly the aircraft. The aircraft is now not coming so the professional pilots will now not have a job opportunity. What could be more applicable to a professional pilots’ forum?

[Plazbot]

If I remember correctly, threads that are started to question why was my/the thread shut down were followed by a banning. Shall we see consistency here?

[IFEZ]

Must admit, I was wondering the same thing. Prematurely cut short I thought. And this wasn't the only one. It's their train set I guess, but its not exactly encouraging people to participate wielding the axe so quickly..!

[uncleonion]

Maybe it was closed because it's getting really tiresome hearing rich people whinge about their toys

[mattyj]

Rich people deserve their say too, plus it might be aeromedical or something..

[Dick Smith]

The blokes who own tho company are not rich. That's why they did not bring the aircraft to australia.

Rich people are not effected by the CASA expensive regulations.

Ask Jamie Packer if the unique requirements would stop him from operating an aircraft here.

Probably leave it on the FAA register and use US pilots.

That's why it is important that if we are supporters of Australia that this type of exposure be allowed on prune. Not censored.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Dick, how about a bit of a heads up on the type of modifications you are talking about. A quick google shows a full top down upgrade four screens and boxes for the Honeywell SPZ tops out at $350k stateside....exactly what are you specifying?

[Dick Smith]

$350k stateside well over $400 k here

I am not specifying any equipment. Just passing on the statement from an extremely frustrated small business operator who wanted to bring a Citation 7 from Europe to Aus.

Oze. Have you noticed the continued downturn in GA in the last decade or so.?

It should be growing like just about everything else.

Any views on why Bankstown would go from nearly 500 k movements per annum to less than 280k ?

I think it's most likely caused by the one way ratchet in increased CASA imposed costs . Any other views?

The Coalition was elected on a policy of removing uneccessary red tape costs. Has this been complied with by casa ?

And I bet the US quote does not include a FDR. Not required in the US.

[Squawk7700]

It's their train set I guess, but its not exactly encouraging people to participate wielding the axe so quickly..!

PPRUNE is owned by a company in the USA called "Internet Brands."

At the back-end it is purely a money making commercial website. The mods are here to wield their stick and keep us in line for their own personal self interest.

Internet Brands, Inc. ? PPRuNe.org (http://www.internetbrands.com/portfolio-items/pprune-org/)

About us admin
OUR HISTORY
Since launching in 1998 as CarsDirect.com, Internet Brands has grown to become a fully integrated online media and client services organization focused on four high-value vertical categories: Automotive, Health, Legal and Home / Travel.

The company’s award-winning consumer websites lead their categories and serve more than 100 million monthly visitors, while a full range of web presence offerings has established deep, long-term relationships with SMB and enterprise clients.

Internet Brands’ powerful, propriety operating platform provides the flexibility and scalability to fuel the company’s continued growth.

[RAC/OPS]

Ah Australia, hopelessly pedantic and anal while espousing the loveable larrikin image - you don't see so many threads closed for petty reasons on the other forums. Tid is just the pprune incarnation of a bigger problem.

[Global Aviator]

Still can see no reason why thread closed!

Yes it's a professional network/rumor site, and it was a very relevant topic.

CASA will simply force people to bring aircraft in and operate on foreign register if private ops.

I pity the operator that must make it VH and charter ops.

Just as well it's not a small private operator first of type for the PC24!!!

Hey Dick would throwing it on the ZK register and using the pond agreement work like Vuncint did?

Shame one has to float the rules.

[Dick Smith]

Pretty clear it was closed because Tidbinbilla did not want this issue openly canvassed.

Possibly he should explain the reason on this thread.

No wonder visits to this site are reducing. That won't impress the owners who make their money from the number if hits.

[Username here]

Still amazes me the difference between what gets locked here and the stuff that runs it's full course in the fragrant harbour.

At least the Australian forums are consistant with reality! Regulated to death!

[Dick Smith]

I am told that Tidbinbilla is either a CASA employee or a Virgin pilot.

[TBM-Legend]

I'm amazed at the negativity on this site at times. We need to celebrate good jobs and people having a "go"....

Dick was pointing out that the extra costs of operating aircraft in Australia vs. say the USA is not a safety issue but an economic one and more aircraft flying here means more good pilot positions as well as business [read employment] for those that maintain and service them.

Why do we require different standards????

[PPRuNeUser0182]

Yes, let's hear it Tid!

We can discuss jabiru engines, Hoxton Park and v-tails for ever and ever, but a very relevant question on a very real issue concerning a high performance, multi-crew jet above 5700kg is ruled out of order as this forum is only for 'professional pilots'? Really? :ugh:

[Squawk7700]

I keep feeling the urge to Look Left over my shoulder, but alas I don't see any moderators nearby ;)


We can discuss jabiru engines, Hoxton Park and v-tails for ever and ever, but a very relevant question on a very real issue concerning a high performance, multi-crew jet above 5700kg is ruled out of order as this forum is only for 'professional pilots'? Really?

Don't forget LOP operations.

[swh]

Dick,

The advice your friend has been given is wrong, the Cessna 650 was issued with an Australian type acceptance data sheet in 1999.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/casadata/cota/download/a160.pdf

It will not be the first of type, there is also no requirement to get an aircraft prepared for an Australian CofA in Australia, it is a commercial decision where they choose to do the work.

A decent prepurchase inspection would identify the work required to meet the Australian requirements, and that would be factored into the purchase price.

Sounds like there is avionics work to be done, which maybe a lot cheaper if the aircraft flew via the US enroute to Australia.

[porch monkey]

Dick, you almost had my sympathy, right up until your unsubstantiated post referring to the possible employment of the moderator. He/she could also be QF/Jetstar/RAAF or completely unrelated to the industry. That is completely irrelevant, and simply encourages the divide that is fatally affecting the industry as a whole. You're the first to piss and moan about people playing the man not the ball. You can do good for the industry, but that ain't it.

[Dick Smith]

Come on. It's a rumour network. Don't take me so seriously!

[Dick Smith]

SWH . You have missed my point entirely.

I introduced the " first of type " changes back in about 1990 which meant aircraft did not have to have expensive modifications to go on our register .

That's what has changed and is the reason this aircraft will not come to Australia and result in employment of more professional pilots!

[TBM-Legend]

As I understand it the 650 import was not limited as a 'first of type' but rather the expensive upgrades to comply with our ADS-B system plus an FDR not required in USA. These items add no value if aircraft is subsequently exported so therefore somewhat "dead money"...

[Horatio Leafblower]

I think it's most likely caused by the one way ratchet in increased CASA imposed costs . Any other views?

You don't think it's got something to do with the (mis-)management of Bankstown airport? :ugh:

You don't think it's got something to do with the increase in real estate vlaues in Sydney, with corresponding increases in rent/mortgages, as well as the other increases in cost of living?

Here's another thought:

120 years ago there would have been multiple blacksmiths and wheelwrights in every regional village or town and on most large properties to service the ubiquitous horse and cart industry.

Even in the 1900s it would have seemed impossible to think that motor cars would render the horse and cart a curiosity, a plaything for eccentric hobbyists.

In the 1970s and 1980s it would have been impossible to forsee a day where General Aviation would end. Every man would have an aeroplane or a helicopter parked in his shed by the 21st century - look at the rate of technological progress we were making!

How many electronic kits does your shop sell these days Dick? I know you don't own it any more but I bet you it's a fraction of what my mates and I used to buy in the 1980s.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Lead Balloon]

All aircraft imported to Australia should be fitted with an FDR and CVR. Just think how much easier the investigation of the NGA ditching would have been, if NGA had been fitted with an FDR and CVR.

It's about safety. :=

[FoolCorsePich]

Don't forget LOP operations.

This is a forum for professional pilots. Professional pilots don't question the SOPs. They do as they are told. :}

[sunnySA]

I am told that Tidbinbilla is either a CASA employee or a Virgin pilot.
The moderators could be rocket scientists for all I care, they do a great job. Put up or shut-up I say, start your own forum and donate the revenue stream to charity.

[Global Aviator]

Rumor network a little freedom of speech.

I agree with threads attacking people gutlessly should be shut down.

But a chat about import...

Must be CaSA...

[thorn bird]

Dick,
I suggest Tiffin with aunty pru.
No censorship there, everyone welcome

[swh]

SWH . You have missed my point entirely.

I introduced the " first of type " changes back in about 1990 which meant aircraft did not have to have expensive modifications to go on our register .


Dick,

I dont think I have missed your point at all. At no stage was anyone able to import an aircraft from overseas without meeting Australian Airworthiness requirements, even a factory new 737 or A320.

I am somewhat suspicious over the $400,000 being presented. I have previously pointed out to you the availability of an EASA STC for your Citation which adds a WAAS position source without having to go via Cessna so you can be ADSB. The Cessna 650 should also have TD-94s transponders as well, it should not be difficult to get a WAAS data source connected to them and then you have ADSB.

The purchase of a second hand 15-20 year old aircraft like the Cessna 650 is a commercial decision, someone operating in that space should be aware of the airworthiness requirements that apply to every aircraft type in that class.

This is not a type specific/first of type cost being imposed by CASA regulation at all.

[Frank Arouet]

Lead Balloon. Your comment "All aircraft imported to Australia should be fitted with an FDR and CVR. Just think how much easier the investigation of the NGA ditching would have been, if NGA had been fitted with an FDR and CVR" is perplexing.
I thought the new investigation into NGA included retrieving the boxes that they hadn't bothered with last time.
Or is it irony? Apologies for any thread drift.

[Dick Smith]

SHW. No. Not a first of type requirement . But a CASA requirement if the aircraft wishes to operate in Aus.

If we go back and accept aircraft that meet the current FAA requirements this and other aircraft will be able to come to Australia and operate at no punitive extra cost.

Our unique early ADSB requirements will further damage our industry with no measurable safety improvement.

[swh]

If we go back and accept aircraft that meet the current FAA requirements this and other aircraft will be able to come to Australia and operate at no punitive extra cost.

Australia does accept the FAA certification basis and type certificates.

That does not mean an imported aircraft do not need to have Australian registration marks, data plates, exit signs etc. Australian airworthiness requirements need to be met, they apply to all aircraft.

Your friend could have made the commercial decision to buy a second had aircraft that already has ADSB, TCAS, DFDR installed for several million dollars more, or a lower price one with the knowledge they need to comply with Australian requirements. It the choices one has to make when importing a 15-20 year old aircraft.

If he was shopping for an aircraft to use in Australia he should have known what he is looking for, you don't by a 2 seats sports car for a family of 5.

[Dick Smith]

SHW. How can Australia absorb all these extra costs?

Don't you understand that to add even $200 k to the cost of an aircraft means a business may not be viable.

That was the sole reason my board made the decision that we must not have any higher costs than other leading aviation countries .

It's almost as if you do not understand business viability in an environment where we already pay higher wages and salaries than competitor countries like the USA.

I despair.

[wheredidwhogo]

Rodney Rude..... you are him/her? as you stated this is a "professional pilots." forum or used to be. You think a flight attendant should be making comments on a professional pilots forum the same way I don't make comments on how to serve coffee/tea on a hostie forum. Tinda I don't know you but i'm on your side on this we have refullers and hosties on this forum like Rodney Rude telling the world about shooting a ILS in the soup 100 above mins as a spectator waiting to refuel me and at best telling us why it should or could be done better ....go figure! Well done Tinda !

[Aussie Bob]

swh: your poor grasp of the English language makes your post difficult to interpret at best.

Please explain; are you trying to tell us that the bloke who wants a brand new car should instead settle for something second hand because it will save money? Or will the second hand car have more features but cost more?

Your friend could have made the commercial decision to buy a second had aircraft that already has ADSB, TCAS, DFDR installed for several million dollars more, or a lower price one with the knowledge they need to comply with Australian requirements. It the choices one has to make when importing a 15-20 year old aircraft.

Please decipher .... I can't.

Rodney rude: :ok: :ok: :ok: To true!

[Username here]

Pretty surprised this has made it to two pages....

Half of Pprune is going to be in the sin bin when the mods wake up!

[mattyj]

This forum has "grown" over the years!?! You must be joking! This forum has never been as dead!! Especially the Aussie and NZ sections, on the 10 years I've been posting. It can sometimes be days between interesting topics..

[Squawk7700]

It doesn't matter what you write, just keep posting. More hits equals more money for the owners from the advertising on the page.

[falconx]

Wheredidwhogo - 100% correct.

All you hosties on this forum, oops turbulance, seat belt light on, please return to your seats!

Hi Tindabella, on your side too

[onehitwonder]

All you hosties on this forum, oops turbulance, seat belt light on, please return to your seats!

Thats gold!!

[Global Aviator]

Look at importing an aircraft, especially first of type.

Not chump change! I looked into it.

Why do it when there are so many regos one can leave it on and operate privately.

Problem is if you want to generate some charter income your screwed.

Must look into this ZK idea a little more, how expensive is nzud for first of type?

Shame seeing any aircraft not coming due to $$$ Regs.

I say again, imagine if it was a small private guy brining in the first PC24.

[Paul O'Rourke]

Tidbinbilla, I have noticed you have been overtly present of late and have been closing some of Dick's threads. Given the topics have been aviation related I do not understand why. What is going on?

[Squawk7700]

There's been a lot going on behind the scenes of late. People being banned and or disappearing for starters. One user in particular seems to have had a post count drop in the thousands and hasn't posted since !

[swh]

Aussie Bob,

The second hand price for Cennsa VIIs varies by millions, engine/cycles is part of that reason, avionics is another. You could by a very cheap aircraft and need to spend $200,000 on it to get it on the register and still be millions of dollars ahead of buying the one with everything already installed.

[Global Aviator]

Silence is deadly...... Tindy u on leave a break or on Tinder?

[halfmanhalfbiscuit]

Dick,

I fear your tarred with the tendentious blogger and anti casa brush. Although having sat in the seat I think your well placed to make comment.

There were a number of threads regarding the senate inquiries that collectively had over a million hits and were interesting. Posts of senate appearances and comments were worthwhile even influencing future questioning. OK, there were regular posters and perhaps threads were running course. But all of those posters have abandoned this site either voluntarily or via bans.

The other thread 'the empire strikes back on colour defective Vision ' is an example of how this site can work well. I'm not sure if this was locked and then re opened.

Some do not seem to handle constructive criticism well. Dick you raise some good points and challenge casa suggesting solutions. So why are your threads shut down ? !

My view on regulation reform adopt FAA, EASA or NZ CAA in its entirety. I do not see the need for unique confusing rules !

I think this is my last post. Lost interest in this site.

[sagan]

Agree, not a lot to be gained on here these days.

[Stanwell]

At the risk of not really addressing the thread topic...

I'm a retired aviation professional (no, not a professional PILOT) who'd checked out 'the prune'
for quite a while before I signed up.
I'd not really been able to contribute a real lot because there's so much knowledge and experience
on here that I sit back and go.. "orright!"

The industry, as we know, is not without its ego-trippers and 'vested interests' but this forum, IMO,
should not be seen to be restricted to proprietorially limited viewpoints.

We're facing a significant crisis as far as GA in OZ is concerned.
This forum, hopefully, can help by allowing these diverse views to be aired.

Mods, please pass it on to admin. :ok:

[Lookleft]

OK, there were regular posters and perhaps threads were running course. But all of those posters have abandoned this site either voluntarily or via bans.

They are still there HMHB but they just snipe from the sidelines.

Some do not seem to handle constructive criticism well.


Thats why they snipe from the sidelines.:ok:

[Flying Binghi]

Silence is deadly...... Tindy u on leave a break or on Tinder?

He's probably said feg ya all, got in his boat and gone fishing..;)









.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Or taken a couple of Bex and gone for a good lie down! :E

Dr :8

[Trojan1981]

Dick,

You seem to have collected a following of childish posters who seem to hijack all your threads, many of them don't seem to work in the industry. You make a valid point; doing business in Australia is unjustifiably expensive and difficult. Most of that expense and difficulty is due to over-regulation. We seem to be moving towards a free-market economy without the relaxation of market constraints, putting at us at a distinct disadvantage.

I currently work mainly overseas as a pilot, with a little bit of casual work in Australia. I'm in a position where I could invest money into a business here and work locally but I just don't see the value in it. Already slim margins are being eaten away by ever-increasing compliance costs and any prospect of upgrading equipment or market diversification brings with it crippling amounts of cost and additional regulatory requirements. Couple these factors with the glacial pace at which our authorities, including CASA, do business and you realize you are better off taking your cash overseas.

Thanks for the thread Dick, I think it is extremely relevant.

[gchriste]

Would Dick's thread have been targetted by so many loonies attacking the man and not the ball had it have been re-written as:

I am planning on starting a new business (hiring locals) who was planning to bring a Citation 7 from Europe to Australia to seed the business. The Citation 7 we planned to bring in, which is fully approved for operation in Europe and the USA, requires something like $400,000 worth of modifications to operate in Australia. This included both UNS units had to be upgraded plus ADS-B had to be fitted and – wait for it – yes, a full flight data recorder had to be added. After the $400,000 was factored in it was decided not to bring the plane into Australia. Yet again, another aircraft and the employment lost for our industry.

Things seem to be getting worse, not better. I wonder how many more years we will see of our industry being destroyed.

By taking Dick out of the equation, I would think it is an entirely relevant topic for an Australian aviation forum, which frequently discusses the pitfalls of trying to start/run a business.

Sadly, and childishly, some posters seem to take more delight from attacking dick based on his money or profile. This post had nothing to do with Dick as he pointed out, he was inquiring on behalf of someone else.

Let's forget the personality, and support the thrust of the issue instead.

Also: This would be more appropriate on an aircraft owners forum. This forum is for professional pilots.. Then why is the forum called General Aviation and Questions, doesn't seem to be tied to professional pilots to me?

ps. It does feel like too much good debate is being moderated, can the crap, but leave the good stuff!

[LeadSled]

Global Aviatior

Problem is if you want to generate some charter income your screwed.

Not so, you can operate a non-VH aircraft on an Australia AOC, airlines (and others) do it all the time. This is as a result of a Federal Court decision. Of course CASA will tell you no, and make it as difficult as possible if you try.

Administrative obstruction (all in the name of air safety, you understand) is a powerful weapon, the countervailing weapon is measured in cubic dollars. Enforcing your rights at law can get very expensive when you are dealing with CASA.

Must look into this ZK idea a little more, how expensive is nzud for first of type?

Email them, and ask them, CAA NZ are very good at quoting fixed prices and timescales for such matters. Not the open ended charges of CASA.

Needless to say, CASA do their very best to ignore the intent of the TTMRA (which NZ honours as intended), you only have to look at the impositions in the Civil Aviation Act 1988, intended to undermine the intent of the TTMRA.

Tootle pip!!

[Cravenmorehead]

I think Dick has a valid point in regards the moderators locking of threads.
I understand the frustration they must feel with serial pest posters.
I have no doubt the moderators are influenced by other factors. I don't for a minute expect them accept a level playing field, it is after all their bat and ball, and we live in a very litigious society.
Dick Smith's posts are always relevant. I respect the guy immensely. There should be more like he and Nick Xenophon. I hope he enters parliament and rattles their cages.
Dick is one of the few who posts with his own name. I always try to post thinking, what if one day they suddenly reveal all our names. Would I regret my posts?
Play the issue not the man, unless the man is an idiot of course, but who decides that?
Cheers,
Craven

[PPRuNeUser0182]

This forum has "grown" over the years!?! You must be joking! This forum has never been as dead!! Especially the Aussie and NZ sections, on the 10 years I've been posting. It can sometimes be days between interesting topics..

True. But didn't you know "This would be more appropriate on an aircraft owners forum. This forum is for professional pilots." ?

It should be noted the nonsense and fluff that is said in other pprune forums, unmoderated. But here... it has gone to the dogs.

Like I said, let's hear it Tid! Suddenly very quiet!

[Squawk7700]

At least the moderators on here don't have mental issues (that I know of) like some other forums that I've been to.

[Stikybeke]

Well for what it's worth,

I've had some threads that've been closed down by Tidi, most recently, Windfarms 4 (which as correctly identified wasn't really aviation related) however a person who I've known for a long time that I regard as an "A Grader" who, despite my asking over the years will not give up the identity of "anyone"!. This person has told me that Tidi is an "A Grader". Regardless of Tidi's profession (if any) that's good enough for me! If Tidi chooses to close down my contribution to a thread in his capacity as a Moderator or for whatever any other reason I accept it (especially on the back on my indirect knowledge). So be it!

In moderation somebody has to make the hard calls (always in someone elses eyes) and I have no problem with the moderators decision making process whatsoever.

Stiky
:ok:

[OZBUSDRIVER]

....hope I am not classed a serial pest:ooh:

My point has been aired. As indicated subsequently, whilst I do not know the age of the aircraft and its equipment, I point to the intent of the importer and the business decision they must make. Either the cost is purely to meet regulations...and at 400 large appears a tad highball... or, it is an avionics upgrade wish list that has the sky as the limit.

To use this event as an example of bureaucratic intransigent behaviour is fraught with doubts.

[tail wheel]

At least the moderators on here don't have mental issues (that I know of) like some other forums that I've been to.

What a relief! Coming here at least once per day, for the past 20 years, I often doubt my own sanity! :{

Tids is not the only Dunnunda Mod, there are more than just the two of us. Don't blame Tids for every perceived moderating "crime" that some don't agree with. Also, there are "back of the clock" Admins in Europe and the USA that are active in these forums overnight in Australia.

Tids too has been a dedicated volunteer Mod for over twenty years, one of the most experienced and capable PPRuNe Mods in the team. Moderating this forum can be subjective at times but I can assure you, every Mod in the Dunnunda forums 100% supports the decisions and actions of every other Mod.

We are one Team. Offend one and you offend us all.

There are many reasons why threads are locked. Probably the most common reason is because a thread has drifted so far off topic into repetitious, meaningless and irrelevant drivel, that the only option is to lock the thread. Some threads are locked because they are a repeat of previous threads that have been thrashed to death. Threads are locked because they are irrelevant to professional aviation or irrelevant to the Australia, New Zealand and Pacific region. Threads are locked when any individual creates a soap box for their own biased agenda or fall in love with the sound of their own keyboard. And threads are locked and/or removed when they contain libellous or malicious posts which may expose PPRuNe and the user to litigation.

[Global Aviator]

TW,

Thanks for the reasoning.

However I can not see one point you mentioned as to why this thread was closed?

Or are we all missing something?

[Lookleft]

GA I think it comes under this category:

Threads are locked when any individual creates a soap box for their own biased agenda or fall in love with the sound of their own keyboard.

[Dick Smith]

Except it was not an agenda from myself even though I started the thread.

It was about high Costs for putting a plane on the Aus register.

[Squawk7700]

Looks like Tids is still with us ;)

[tail wheel]

However I can not see one point you mentioned as to why this thread was closed?

Very observant! :ok: