Soviet Ekranoplan 'Lun'

[Lascaille]

Some excellent pictures here - including interior flight deck, flight engineer's and gunner's stations - of the Soviet Ekranoplan (Caspian Sea Monster). I've seen this thing mentioned from time to time but these pictures are new to me and well worth a look.

Ekranoplan "Lun" - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/kRUA8)

[uffington sb]

Perhaps we (The UK) should buy it as an MPA. Dynotape all the Russkie writing and there's plenty of storage for pies etc on a five day mission!

[Danny42C]

There are smaller "recreational" ones, too. Look to be tremendous fun if you have plenty of fairly smooth water around you.

I believe they are much more fuel-efficient than a similar sized light aircraft, but as they only go up a few feet, you would have to dodge obstacles !

D.

[Saintsman]

Yes, good photos.

This is something that should be preserved, though I suspect that it would cost too much. An amazing machine and aptly named.

[Trim Stab]

- of the Soviet Ekranoplan (Caspian Sea Monster)

The "KM" or Caspian Sea Monster and the "Lun" are not the same. The original KM was even bigger than the Lun, but was destroyed in a crash. The Lun ("Harrier" in Russian) was the successor and was actually operational in the Soviet/Russian navy.

There was also a smaller, turboprop powered version which could climb out of ground effect to about 10,000ft. I would have thought, as somebody else pointed out, that such versatility would indeed be very useful as an MPA. I presume that there must be some intrinsic disadvantage, otherwise I expect the US would have looked at the technology too.

[Martin the Martian]

Amazing machines. I too cannot understand why the concept has not been taken on in the west.

Trim Stab: Do you mean the A-90 Orlyonok?

Photos: Alekseyev A-90 Orlyonok Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia---Navy/Alekseyev-A-90-Orlyonok/1241659/L/)

The Russian model kit company Zvezda make one of these in 1/144 scale. Ever since a friend of mine built one I keep thinking about doing one, painting it white with the Isles of Scilly Steamship company logo on it and naming it Scillonian IV.

[deptrai]

Definitely fascinating and amazing. There are a few western versions, mostly recreational and smaller, up to 10 seat craft. There are also some unique challenges...taking off into the wind also means taking off into waves, a lot of pounding on the fuselage. They can't avoid weather, and have a very limited ability to climb above obstacles. The limited applications make design cost very high relative to production cost

[Trim Stab]

Definitely fascinating and amazing. There are a few western versions, mostly recreational and smaller, up to 10 seat craft. There are also some unique challenges...taking off into the wind also means taking off into waves, a lot of pounding on the fuselage. They can't avoid weather, and have a very limited ability to climb above obstacles. The limited applications make design cost very high relative to production cost

The Lun was designed for five day missions most of which would presumably be in "boat" mode. You can see from the photographs that the hull is more strongly built than that of a seaplane, and more sea-kindly than that of a seaplane (deeper V, multiple chines, retractable hydro-step, winglets to reduce roll). It could apparently take off in 5m waves, or up to Beaufort 6-7, so far less weather limited than a seaplane.

Would be interested to have opinions from any MPA types as to how useful this capability would be.

[Pontius Navigator]

I wonder what the turn radius was. Any great AOB would require more height and also loss of lift.

[Mechta]

Iran went for the little ones in a big way a few years back:

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6422e669882a.jpg

Look up 'Bavar-2'. Very similar to the one that Alexander Lippisch (Me-163 designer) built.

[The Old Fat One]

Would be interested to have opinions from any MPA types as to how useful this capability would be.

for the UK - useless.

these vehicles are designed to operate in the low sea states typically found in enclosed small seas (think Black Sea/Baltic and the like).

It could apparently take off in 5m waves, or up to Beaufort 6-7, so far less weather limited than a seaplane.

These are not proper measures of sea state, which is a combination of swell (often generated by weather systems hundreds of miles away) and waves produced by local wind. On an average day in the North Atlantic a "confused" sea state 4-5 will see a twenty foot swell in one direction and ten foot waves in another direction. I doubt these beasts will go anywhere in those sea conditions. Check out the images of wing in ground effect vehicles on Google. Every single one, without exception, (of real photos, not cartoons) is operating over a flat calm or mildly rippled sea (sea state 0-1). You'll see those conditions in the North Atlantic two or three days a year :eek:

Plus, it might look quick but compared to high level transit it'll take forever to get on task.

Plus, massively vulnerable (big, slow, can't turn etc) so will only operate in benign air combat conditions (another reason they are for littoral use only).

Plus, that's putting a huge amount of noise in the water. Any decent towed array is hearing that thing coming well before it arrives.

Plus it has no horizon for

comms
radar
sonobuoy coverage

I could go on, but I think you get the message.

A hybrid version that can do a bit of medium level sounds suspiciously like a flying boat to me....

[Photoplanet]

Amazing photoset...

Sad to see this almost unique 'aircraft' in such a decayed state... The interior pictures show a very clean and 'fresh' environment, nice and shiny in those areas that have exposed structure.

Items such as this are surely 'World Heritage' assets, and should not be left to rot in some far forgotten former soviet shipyard.

I wold love to see this thing fly again in HD video, why not ?

[Martin the Martian]

Actually, Photoplanet, if it was sitting in a dockyard in the UK English Heritage probably would slap a Grade II listing on it.

[LowObservable]

A Russian friend with aerospace background grumbled to me once that the general designer (Alexeyev) was well connected in the Party. Whenever one of his ekranoplans failed to live up to expectations, he announced that it just needed to be made larger in order to be efficient. Hence the CSM and the Lun.

Korea's Wingship Technology is pursuing the Lippisch-type WIG with a reverse-delta wing. They have an interesting-looking 50-pax craft, but don't seem to have done much in the air except a short hop in a straight line.

[AreOut]

I wonder if in a hypothetical clash a huge ekranoplan like this was going to attack american ship what would be used to counter it? It's flying too low for SAMs and going too fast for antiship missiles, CIWS reacts only to relatively close objects.

[KenV]

I wonder if in a hypothetical clash a huge ekranoplan like this was going to attack american ship what would be used to counter it? It's flying too low for SAMs and going too fast for antiship missiles, CIWS reacts only to relatively close objects.

1. If it was a carrier being targetted, the Lun would have been spotted hundreds of miles from the carrier and the carrier's aircraft would have killed it well before it could have launched its missiles. A single hit from a Maverick would likely have done the job.

2. The SM series of anti-aircraft missiles common to US Naval vessels essentially ALL have an anti-ship capability/mode. The only question is who would see who first. It would seem to me that the Lun has a HUGE radar cross section with a huge doppler shift relative to the water, so the ship would seem to have the advantage in seeing the Lun first.

3. The 5-inch guns common to US Naval vessels have the ability to track and engage a WIG type vessel at speed. However, the Lun would likely launch its missiles before a ship could get close enough to engage with a gun.

4. Harpoon anti-ship missiles have the ability to track and engage a WIG type vessel at speed. The ship's helo could provide the targeting data for the Harpoon at a range well beyond the Lun's ability to spot the ship on its radar.

[LowObservable]

Nimitz gets popped by small WIGs launched from a mother-ship in this pre-Clancy techno-thriller...

http://www.amazon.com/Show-Force-Charles-D-Taylor/dp/0515097667

[Phalconphixer]

heres a smaller version from the same stable...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v13/foxbat/WTH.jpg

Seen here looking very sorry for itself in Virpazar in Montenegro. Prior to iits retirement it was used to patrol the maritme border between Montenegro and Albania across Lake Skadar. It sat there for many years and was slowly vandalised. What was left of it finally departed sometime around 2004 I think...

[West Coast]

I wonder if in a hypothetical clash a huge ekranoplan like this was going to attack american ship what would be used to counter it? It's flying too low for SAMs and going too fast for antiship missiles, CIWS reacts only to relatively close objects.


In general terms, if this beast was really a threat, USN weapons and tactics would have been developed and/or modified to counter the threat.

[Frostchamber]

At least no-one can argue that it's not optimised for low level...

[Courtney Mil]

If it was a carrier being targetted, the Lun would have been spotted hundreds of miles from the carrier and the carrier's aircraft would have killed it well before it could have launched its missiles. A single hit from a Maverick would likely have done the job.

Range of a Maverick against the range of a P-270? SS-N-22 launched from 120km, flies at 20 metres and Mach 3. And that was the Lun, what, nearly 40 years ago?

Your statement about Doppler is interesting. The Lun may be travelling at over 500kph, but a USN aircraft carrier with no Doppler shift at all is a massive radar target. Even the Lun's Puluchas radar could find that.

[Cows getting bigger]

I would wager it would beat an F35 in a turning fight. :}

[The Old Fat One]

Range of a Maverick against the range of a P-270? SS-N-22 launched from 120km, flies at 20 metres and Mach 3. And that was the Lun, what, nearly 40 years ago?

Don't cherry pick the equation. That bad boy (or any long range SSM) has to be third party targetted, as the WIGE vehicle is unable to target the square root of FA by itself (as I posted earlier). That means a targetting platform + comms). All do-able for sure, but I reckon there will be few interesting challenges in the technology - one things for sure, I'd love to see what happens to the airflow when you stick a sodding great satty receive aerial in the airflow at that speed!

Also the range of the Maverick is irrelevant, it is the range of the maverick (or similar) plus the range of the launch platform that matters...and that is well in favour of the defending unit especially as it can do it's own targetting as well as use third party.

Long story short...sending these up against a modern battlegroup would require the services of an old Japanese Divine Wind instructor.

[Wander00]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_symWK4T7n0


Found this video of Lun on a Google search

[ORAC]

Boeing Pelican (http://forum.worldofwarplanes.eu/index.php?/topic/25925-boeing-pelican/)

[Wander00]

Photos and, at the bottom, 10 minute video with VERY odd soundtrack, and a bit on Boeing Pelican
Dark Roasted Blend: The Ekranoplans Showcase, Part 1 (http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/05/ekranoplans-showcase.html)

[Courtney Mil]

Not "cherry picking" anything, TOFO, just pointing out that for its time it was something a carrier group would want to keep at arm's length.

I do kind of understand how the range of an air-launched missile works, but thanks for the help.

[FODPlod]

I would wager it would beat an F35 in a turning fight. :}
Strewth, the Lun can turn in the hover, too? Good one. :ooh:

Seriously, noting the likely susceptibility of a 300+ ton WIG vessel to losing it by digging in a wing and flipping when banking in a tight turn, I doubt it. Ever attempted a tight turn in a medium performance RIB at top speed (and that's only about 30 kts)?

I believe the F-35 is intended to take a 9g turn giving it a radius of curvature of about 1 km. I doubt the Lun could even approach that manoeuvrability, especially at 300 kts, and don't forget it doesn't have keel in the water (much like a hovercraft) to prevent lateral slew. Even the turning circle of a largish displacement vessel at relatively low speed might surprise you by its size.

Good job there's some sailors on here, innit?

[AreOut]

"In general terms, if this beast was really a threat, USN weapons and tactics would have been developed and/or modified to counter the threat."

that sounds reasonable :)

[Courtney Mil]

FOD, I don't think CGB really needed that full explanation.

By "radius of curvature" do you mean "turn radius"? As to your calculation, a good attempt. It would all depend on what speed (TAS) the aircraft hits 9g. The higher that speed, the bigger the turn radius. At, say 450kts that would be about 2400 feet, so you weren't that far out - far enough to make a big difference when it comes to fighter comparison, though.

Good job there's some aircrew on here, innit? :ok:

[LowObservable]

The Ekranoplan project was in a sense comparable to the F-35B or airborne nuclear power or the P6M in that, even if it worked, it was hard to see what critical strategic capability it brought to the party. The Sovs already had ships, subs and Backfires targeting carriers. Of course you could argue that it's hard to torpedo a WIG, or hit it at great range with a Phoenix or SM, and that it may be too fast for a Harpoon's tracking logic, but a Maverick could be bodged to take it on quite easily. Then add the range and sea state limits... Eventually the Orlyonok was designed as an amphib warfare transport, but it was hard to see what it did that the Soviet ACVs couldn't.

The Pelican was fun. Completely barking, but fun.

http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2003-01/monster-20-ft

[LowObservable]

The ideal anti-Ekranoplan weapon would be the A-10. One pass, one burst, and saw the bleeder in half.

[Hempy]

There's probably a good reason they only built one of them. They weren't completely stupid.

[The Old Fat One]

I do kind of understand how the range of an air-launched missile works, but thanks for the help.

I know you do - me to. I'm just a stickler for a balanced discussion - its the liberal in me.

as it happens...

There's probably a good reason they only built one of them. They weren't completely stupid.

that's the ideal post for this thread.

[West Coast]

I'm just a stickler for a balanced discussion - its the liberal in me.

Balanced discussion, not usually a attribute associated with liberals.

[Courtney Mil]

There's probably a good reason they only built one of them. They weren't completely stupid.


In fact they were building another, but they lost their support in the Soviet MoD and funding was withdrawn.

[Herod]

I had a colleague who subscribed to the fact that wave-lift reduced fuel consumption. IIRC that requires flying at about half-a-wingspan over the sea. This he did almost every time, in a high-wing mini-airliner, without a rad-alt!!

[AreOut]

"The ideal anti-Ekranoplan weapon would be the A-10. One pass, one burst, and saw the bleeder in half."

Ekranoplan would probably be equipped with some A-A missiles but more probably it would have fighter support... A-10s are very efficient against Taliban and similar cavemen but I doubt they would resist salvo of soviet missiles.

[Hempy]

CM, if I'm not mistaken, the 2nd one was for SAR

[KenV]

[QUOTE]Range of a Maverick against the range of a P-270? SS-N-22 launched from 120km, flies at 20 metres and Mach 3. And that was the Lun, what, nearly 40 years ago? [/QUOTE

Ummmm, a Maverick is carried by a jet aircraft. The range of the jet aircraft is considerably greater than 120km. The carrier's embarked E-2 Hawkeye can detect and track the Lun hundreds of miles beyond the Lun's surface search radar's horizon. It would be dead before it could get within range to detect the carrier on its radar, never mind within range to launch its missiles.

[Biggus]

I thought that point had already been made in post 23?