Serving in HM Forces harms post mil career chances.

[Al R]

Offered without prejudice!

"Having served Queen and country is one of the least attractive attributes in a jobseeker in the eyes of potential employers, new research has found.

A study asked hiring managers to rank how positively they looked on a range of features in a job applicants, including time spent in the forces, qualifications and experiences.

Fewer than half of the 2,000 people questioned – just 47pc – said they saw applicants who had served in uniform as a positive attribute. Only being "well-travelled" or "sporty or active" appearing on a CV were ranked lower."

Why having served Queen and country can harm your career - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/11686822/Why-having-served-Queen-and-country-can-harm-your-career.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

AlR, I know my over weight, untidy, unfit site manager had a thing about ex-forces even though one of his best workers was a retired CSM. It may have been because his boss was a retired Captain ex-tanker.

[Sandy Parts]

personal prejudice aside - I've seen no evidence of this in my (limited) job search post-RAF. In fact, exactly the opposite, especially in the offshore world (not my current employer but I know many employed there post-RAF).

[Chugalug2]

Does this not speak more of the paucity of UK managerial expertise than of the quality of those that blind prejudice condemns? Together with the lack of knowledge of Service life in the general population, the great majority of whom have never served nor know of anyone else who has served, opinions are garnered from the media instead. Those who suffer from combat stress, unable to settle back into civilian life regularly feature in such coverage, thus all ex Forces are combat stress victims and unemployable!

Lazy, prejudiced and ignorant; I give you UK plc!

[Army Mover]

My experience is that many businessmen have a negative opinion of ex-serviceman and see them as either as a liability, or a threat.

I was lucky; I only ever applied for one job, the guy that interviewed me for my job had a brother who was an Army officer and as a result, knew the skill set that an ex-serviceman can bring to a business. 20 years later, I'm still there, moved up the chain, now run a national operation and in a position to hire and fire myself.

One word or warning; don't bluff at your interview, you may be sat across the table from an ex-serviceman who will know immediately if you try to big it up. :=

[The Old Fat One]

Just journalistic rubbish IMO.

Recruitment is a massive component of a successful companies strategy and all successful companies (big or small) will try hard to get this challenging element correct. Most of the time a successful and proven track record in the "soft" skill (eg sales) of "hard" skill (eg software coding) will VASTLY outweigh anything else on a CV. These day most recruiters automatically filter out all the chaff and spraff people love to put in a CV and go straight for the meat. Your background and history will only really count if it is evidence that you can deliver (ready out the box) the task the company is going to pay you to do.

And, IMO, that is exactly as it should be.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Top talent is what a company wants in theory, but that isn't what happens at the job interview level. HR wants someone who won't complain and costs nothing, and the boss wants someone who won't threaten his job.

Ex-Servicemen are likely to challenge illegal or dangerous practices, and their leadership training and experience (rightly) makes an average to poor boss concerned for his/her own job.
Add in computerised keyword/profiling of CVs where many ex-servicemen get rejected for not having a 'standard' history, and the prospects for ex-Servicemen are not good.

Taking telecom companies as an example, are they full of top talent? Not at all; they are awful. Local Government, Banks too; the list is very long. To succeed, the company just has to be slightly less crap than the other companies. Their hires are nice, safe dull people whom they can work to death, and ex-Servicemen are not those.



In contrast, if one can get through the main man directly, and/or the job requires high levels of skill and dedication,then the ex-Serviceman has better than average prospects.

[muppetofthenorth]

To people who have never been in, having a CV that includes military service = squaddie (because that's the only position there is in the armed forces) and to them, squaddie = unable to string two words together without shooting at someone.

As said above, it's ignorance, nothing else.

[andyy]

I agree with both F3 and muppet. Ex military personnel are either considered unsuitable for many civilian jobs because they are considered to need direct orders all of the time & close supervision, and are inflexible. Or, they are considered to represent a threat because they are well organised, get the job done and good at recognising and solving problems. Bosses don't like either!

[alemaobaiano]

My experience is similar to Sandy Parts. In foreign climes time served in the British forces is very highly regarded, and can make a big difference during a selection process.

Non-UK employers value the adherence to standards, the willingness to speak out about unsafe practices, and the self assurance that many ex-service personnel exhibit.

The characteristics that British bosses see as a threat are considered valuable assets in other countries.

TTFN

[Wander00]

In the 90s I was involved in resettlement and recruitment (remember "Opportunities" newspaper/magazine?) - one of the issues I covered in resettlement lectures as, in a time of recession, MOD was pushing "the best trained workforce in Britain" campaign ("Access to Excellence") was that the average employer/recruiter not only had no Service experience, neither did his/her parents or even grandparents. Public perception of the Armed Forces was "Dad's Army". "Get some in", "Ain't 'Alf Hot Mum" and "The Navy Lark"!
In 20 years it seems little has changed. On the other hand I know that some major management consultancy companies run "pool" systems to train ex Services people in consultancy skills, and find the product very good. Royal British Legion do fantastic "hearts and minds" stuff with employers, but since the majority of employment is with SMEs, I suspect that the resettlement system need to do more with prospective employers at this level rather than the FTSE "top 100".

[minigundiplomat]

I left 4 years ago and earn almost double what I did in the military, so I would partially disagree with that statement. I would agree with those posting that it is more of an advantage when applying to foreign companies than those in the UK.

In the UK, many employers seem to cling to the belief that anyone leaving the military will be damn grateful for a job and happily work for the minimum wage. UK employers also have a habit of asking for the moon on a stick in a puzzling JD, then either backtracking or offering 20K. This is especially true of sub-contractors who seem to repeatedly underestimate the cost of labour when pricing a bid.

I also chuckle when I read some of the posts on Linkedin as within the UK 'leadership' seems to have fallen into the HR domain, and many 30 year old HR managers are keen to share their thoughts on leadership and inspiring people.

[Doobry Firkin]

I think it depends on where in the country you are and what sector your moving into! Some places will be easier than others...

In Aberdeen ex-military guys are looked upon well. Good work ethic, a can do attitude and good safety culture go far in Oil and Gas.
I work for a big US Oil and Gas Service company in Aberdeen aong with 3 other ex-RAF and a few ex-Navy and Army guys so the banter is always good. The management know they can just set a task and it will done, they know we have management skills and unlike most 'civvys' have done management training during our careers and generally won't try to hide things from them.

I did take a hit on wages when i joined but i was basically starting a new career and understood that, it took less than a year for me to be on more than i was when i left the RAF as the management realised what i was capable of. When i joined i was 1 rung up the ladder, now i'm in my own little job bracket given projects to deal with and teams of people to manage with little to no managerial interference.

I've had the recruiters and managers call me to ask about people who've applied for jobs as i might have known them from the RAF (and in one case they guy had sat on the desk next to me at Kinloss).

[ShotOne]

Having worked in civil aviation for longer than I was in the RAF I've certainly never encountered any discrimination against military personnel. But on the other hand if a candidate were to give the impression of feeling entitled to a particular position on account of having "done his time" that would most definitely count against them.

[Shaft109]

"Ex-Servicemen are likely to challenge illegal or dangerous practices"

As a slight interloper here I was taught to fly by a VGS at a very young age and I recognized the above a few times in a job. The 'safety culture' was very much if you see something you don't like open your mouth and say so - it was a genuinely open within reason environment.

My first boss at said company was so good that this was never an issue. Cue his replacement and being told to 'shut your (my) F**cking mouth and mind your own business' after respectfully pointing out a very dangerous practice.

We never saw eye to eye and once nearly came to blows but was proved right after I'd left when a lad lost a few toes under an FLT wheel. But it was about the 4-5th time this had nearly happened.

Lesson learned.

[andyy]

"Lesson learned".

Unlikely. Lesson identified, more likely, but not many lessons are ever actually learned in either the Services or Civilian worlds.

[Courtney Mil]

Surely, serving in the armed forces is the only way to ensure a post mil career. If you didn't serve in the armed forces, you certainly can't have one.

[spannermonkey]

I was 'fortunate', if that's what you call sending out lots of resumes and putting my details out there on job sites etc to have been headhunted by a company after I left the RAF.

They specifically targetted an ex mil type as they knew the value of such individuals. Since that first role I've enjoyed 3 others, two with the same company (effectively a promotion) and who I am currently with. Again they specifically targeted ex mil types. Its also interesting to note all these companies were in Canada and while they were looking for a 'local' ex mil, they had a high level of respect for the UK. Within these roles I've also been in the position to hire and fire people and will say the view of the general public towards their military is far higher than in the UK, generally very respectful. Look out for the youtube video of the Canadian soldier killed in Afghanistan and his repatriation home - it puts the UK public to shame when you see how the Canadians react to this persons final journey from landing back home in Canada to his eventual journeys end.

I think as one earlier post put it, the UK is so fixated and controlled by the media and the negative aspects it seems to thrive on that its no surprise the image of the military may very well be of a 'squaddie' who can only sit in the corner trying to bite his own ears due to combat stress. Then again, I have never gone to one of the great unwashed and uneducated and asked them for a job, as they seem to peak at 'yu wont frys wiv thah'

It really does depend on the industry you move to. If its one that has no association or links to some aspect of military life such as aviation, why are people shocked that they could end up with a boss who may be shallow, self absorbed, insecure and ineffective with no understanding of military life, training or the value on offer -ergo he's threatened by such types. Then again have we not all known or had a boss like that at some time in the military.

End of the day if you don't like your boss or your job or are finding it hard to get a job - do something about it, but for goodness sake don't whine or complain, there are enough people out there willing to do that already.

[PapaDolmio]

I found it very much the same as in the military, right place, right time, face fits. The important thing I found in interviews is to show you've moved on and you're looking for a new challenge. Paper quals count for something but experience and personal qualities count for more- in other words, will you fit in?
The main problem is that many civvy firms want someone to be productive effectively from day one, they don't want to spend money on training. It can be difficult to translate mil experience to civvy experience which is why taking a short term temporary job can help bridge that gap.
I can't say I've encountered much bias since leaving, a lot depends on how you carry yourself and how you deal with people. Also I don't think the press and charities help by always highlighting the problems, virtually everything you see is negative.
Finally, one tip for interviews- be very careful about Reserve Service, it can be suicide to mention you're thinking of joining the Reserves at interview, despite all the good words lots of companies see them as a burden and financial risk. If you're already in then it's up to them, if you're thinking of joining wait till you've got the job then see how the land lies.

[Trim Stab]

Ex-Servicemen are likely to challenge illegal or dangerous practices

Yes, this is is alternatively called "lack of flexibility" in civil aviation...

[Al R]

MGD,

'Leadership' in civvy street these days generally seems limited to the ability to circulate online, Steve Jobs inspirational quotes better than anyone else.

(Update: Apparently, 'productivity is being able to do things that you were never able to do before'. Now you all know :) )

[Wensleydale]

Admittedly this was a good few years ago but when I did the CS interviewers' course, the instructors commented that ex-military did not know how to present themselves to employers - neither in their CV nor during the job application process. "I was aircrew in the military" did not tell an employer anything. However, I am sure (hope?) that the modern resettlement process addresses these issues!

[Wander00]

When I was teaching career change in the 90s one of the topics was "CV Writing". Tried to get over that an employer did not want to know where you had been stationed each 2-3 years and not been court martialled, but what the individual had changed, improved or added value. I did a little sum on the flip chart (remember them) that demonstrated that if the candidate wanted a £20k salary, he/she needed to generate turnover of £250,000 ish, from day1. There was virtually no understanding that many SMEs are funded on loans secured against the owner's personal assets - business fails, Mum and the kids are in the street

[Educated Armourer]

When thinking about joining the management scheme for a famous Scottish fast food chain I was invited for a day at one of their restaurants. I enjoyed the experience of making a batch of Big Macs ,working on the till and the group exercises but less so the interview. When I explained to the interviewer that I had been commissioned after approx 20 years in the ranks, I was berated for quite a while because I had left it so long. He believed that being an officer made me a manager or leader, but all my time as an airman was wasted. I would agree that much of the technical stuff that I had done during this time was not particularly relevant for this job, but he could see no pluses of being an NCO. Maybe it was my fault for not being able to convince him, but he was determined that he was right.

[Hangarshuffle]

I would say it does harm your 2nd career prospects in civvy street, if you overly press on about what you did in the mil. Important to convince your new boss that your skills you will bring to your new workplace are fully transferrable.
Expect to fund your training if required to as well, it counts for a lot, cause it wont be on a plate as it is in the mob.
But MGD is right - pay doubles and it is a lot easier and more pleasant if you can get in the door.
* There are hundreds of fat/lazy/stupid/dim/arrogant/unpleasant people who served in the forces that you have to rub along with because you had to - and I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole in civvy capacity. Being in the services doesn't make you superman in the jobs market.

[Heathrow Harry]

Unfortuantely Shuffle there are just as many lazy/stupid/dim/arrogant/unpleasant people in civvy street

the difference is you don't have to salute them and they can't put you in chokey if you disagree with them

In my experience ex-Mil types are welcome as long as they don't bang on about how "superior" the miliatry are/were

[thing]

Can't say it's either hindered me or helped me. I only recently heard my first disparaging remark after twenty years as a civvy when a 'department head' of one of the establishments I work at said 'Of course his Dad is RAF, there's no wonder he's like he is.'

To which I breezily pointed out that I'm ex RAF also. Cue much flushing of face and stumbling of words by offending party; and the odd remark 'I would never in a million years have said you were ex forces'.

I feel like I've been deprived of something. What is this ex forces thing that I don't have?

[pulse1]

Over the years I have worked with or employed several ex military types, all in technician type roles. These were mostly ex RAF or RN technicians employed as maintenance or service engineers. This was in a small business environment which was largely unstructured and this was the problem. They all found it difficult to live with the flexibility and most had problems with working for the civvies who they had been trained to think of as inferior throughout their military career.

The best one I ever worked with was an ex submariner. His job was to maintain production equipment which was mainly operated by young ladies who found him to be most attractive. This led to him being given the run around until he had a nervous breakdown. He told me that, in 12 years in the Navy, he had been in danger many times with no problems. Six months working with all these ladies broke him.

[thing]

most had problems with working for the civvies who they had been trained to think of as inferior throughout their military career.

Que? What a bizarre remark. I may be the odd one out of millions of ex service persons but I can't think of a single instance where I was trained to think of civilians as inferior. It may come as a surprise but I was a civvy before I joined up and when I left I resumed my previous incarnation.

[sitigeltfel]

When many in the media, politics and public life portray all servicemen, regardless of trade, as dangerous, trained killers, what do you expect?

O it's Tommy this, an Tommy that, an Tommy go away............

[goudie]

did not want to know where you had been stationed each 2-3 years

I interviewed a RAF Sgt for a job as a service technician. He was well qualified for the job but he did over egg his CV, with minute details of his career.
One item read, 'Second i/c transport at RAF Forward Staging Post.'
It transpired that he picked up the groundcrew Landrover, from MT at RAF Masirah, most mornings! He did get the job though.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It's almost impossible to get CVs right.

The usual "we are looking for a team player who can take the lead if needed in a mission-critical, high pressure role" should be adequately answered by "fighter pilot". I mean, what the fu#ck else do they think fighter pilots do? They nicked all these phrases off the military anyway, and they only need you to sell printers.

However, my experience is that half the HR crowd haven't a clue about anyone outside their little world, and can't be @rsed to spend 3 minutes on the internet. So you give it the fourth degree explaining every little point, and get pinged for too much detail.

And most of the other candidates have massively over-egged their CVs, so you are forced to compete.

[Danny42C]

"Any man", said Dr. Johnson, "thinks more meanly of himself for not having borne arms for his country".

(It seems that this quotation should correctly end: "for not being a soldier", but this is the form as I first heard it, and I prefer it).

There may be an element of this (envy?) involved.

D.

[Melchett01]

We aren't great at translating our experience and subsequently selling ourselves, which is a problem as nearly everything I life is about selling something or other whether it be yourself, your team/company, a product or a service. A former colleague chatting with a recruiter before leaving was stunned when his military CV was put in to civvie speak in a polished and targeted manner, he didn't recognise himself.

What does irritate me though is that we are perceived as being institutionalised knuckle-draggers when that clearly isn't the case and people would realise that if only they took the time to listen and learn. A prime example of this was a few years back when a family member my own age and a VP in a major retailing outfit said he would never employ me because I'm institutionalised; what he meant was I knew nothing about retail and therefore was unemployable to him. He failed to see my point when I countered that from my perspective he was institutionalised in retail and I wouldn't want him round the bird table in Helmand.

In this day and age with frequent postings to a wide range of jobs and locations, if not services evey couple of years, plus multinational experience upto and including senior board level depending on your post, institutionalised and inflexible are not words that immediately springs to mind.

Edited to add - As for

"Any man", said Dr. Johnson, "thinks more meanly of himself for not having borne arms for his country ... There may be an element of this (envy?) involved.
D.

I heard a similar modern version of this idea if not quote, reportedly from Stan McChrystal that makes me smile every time I see it, and goes along the lines of

"when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eye and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend because she knows she's dating a pussy"

[Al R]

Melch,

I agree completely with you. The problem is, he wasn't applying for the bird bath job. It woz his rules.

How many unclaimed education allowances go unclaimed I wonder? It should be instilled, from the word 'go', that one day, the great adventure ends and that soon, you'll be locking horns with the other real world. I'm so out of touch now, but are perpetually unclaimed or untaken up education allowances part of the great PI game for unit commanders?

I know too, that it's a joke, I'm not so rusty I'm naive. The slack simply isn't there to allow it all. Therein lies the dichotomy.. gushing praise from the state this weekend in particular, and cool indifference once the cameras go away. One of the reasons why I'm cool to AFD; it gives misplaced credence to a concept of state support for the troops. Time for a burst of lavish, gushing, love bombing..? Tick. Good, now business as usual again.

I had someone deliver building materials this week; clearly ex-mil. Crisp, no BS, job done.. chop chop chop. I enjoyed his endeavour, his focus and his ability and willingness to get the job done (when it had changed and once a bit of flex was required). Truth be told, I did my "aims, factors, courses, plan" in an instant - as had he. But if I had been a dithering drip instead, a mitherer, I'd have cast him as a bolshy, arrogant b'stard who didn't appreciate the 'getting the job done' over my 'client facing experience'.

Ex-mil(in my experience) are generally seen as corporate gap-fillers.. great middle/upper middle material acting as the glue, pretty much as a good NCO would on a sqn. But to reach the absolute heights of company structure? Companies are like the military too, they also like to see an indoctrination, an institutional compass and corporate grounding.

Otherwise we'd have Richard Branson as CAS, right?

[Wander00]

Al R - now there's a thought

[Ed Winchester]

How many unclaimed education allowances go unclaimed I wonder?

All of them, I reckon. :8

[Army Mover]

I work for a US multi-national; this is based on my 20-years of working outside the military. We do like ex-military, it wasn't always the case, but recent wars have really hi-lighted the military skill set. Our HR department seem to follow the following; any education, training that's more than 5 years old and not been followed up with experience in that subject is ignored; if it's important and the person deemed "the one", then we will refresh them via a local uni; we have had a few who can't be bothered and move on.

All potential managers are put through something that must be reminiscent of the things you did to get into Cranwell/Sandhurst. Ex-military seem to score really highly in man-management, and tend to start their commercialisation in our operational business units where again, a few drop out; basically, they can't make the break into civilian life.

Those that have moved across into specialist departments have gotten there from starting in operations, then undertaking the training required to equalise their CV with anybody else and express an interest in moving on - equal opportunities will bite you in the back end if this is not done. We have had people take us to tribunals for alleged inequality during the hiring stage.

We do have our fair share of ex-military officer, senior managers; having worked with most of them, I wish I'd met them while serving, they are very good and have made the transition with no problem at all; a few have been "poached" by our US parent company.

[Al R]

How many unclaimed education allowances go unclaimed I wonder?All of them, I reckon.

Ed, you could be right! :E

[Chugalug2]

AlR:-
we'd have Richard Branson as CAS, right? While I greatly admire the way that Sir Richard has stood up against the "bums and gangsters" that did for Freddie Laker, I do not think that he would make for a very good CAS, having just watched his interview with Andrew Marr. He is another who has been sold the lie that it is "Europe" that has kept the peace in Europe since WW2. It is of course NATO that has done that. For how much longer that peace can last, given the divisions being created by that very same Nobel Peace Prize Winning "Europe", is a different matter of course.

Sir Richard is perhaps a good example of a civilian that has excelled at being one and consequently could not be **sed to study war. Like most civilians, he ignores war at his peril. Most civilians now are blissfully unaware of how quickly it can suddenly appear and why you should prepare for it in order to avoid it. That means more taxes!

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,

How right you are ! This nonsense about the European Union having "Kept the peace in Europe these last 70 years" has been peddled regularly for two decades and more.

Peace has been kept by NATO, and that means American power (although we used to be able to lend a hand) - and we'd better not forget it !

How dispiriting it is to have to revisit the years leading up to WWII, when the League of Nations (remember them?) was going to keep us safe from any more wars. Then as now, apart from a few prescient people like Churchill, (who was derided as a "warmonger" for his pains), most behaved like Lenin's "Useful Idiots" and closed their eyes to what was coming.

It's true, a nation that forgets its history will be condemmed to relive it.

Danny42C.

[Sillyporep]

Having been a civvy for twice as long as I was in the RAF I still find that I call on my experience from that time. I have had several jobs and currently enjoy a very senior position in aviation in Asia (non flying, I have to work for a living!!) I believe that it all comes down to the individual and their desire and willingness to adapt and adopt to their new environment, wherever that may be. I do have one complaint, why does every exiting serviceman think that having a string of letters after their name will make them more employable? In my experience they are largely meaningless and do not enhance the opportunity for employment.

[Chugalug2]

Danny thanks for your endorsement, as ever! :)
Lest we be accused of thread drift, I think the point is that HM Forces are constantly aware of the threat of war, for answering that threat is their raison d'etre. Those who do not or have not served tend not to, and indeed may see such preoccupation as a threat in itself.

Only those who have left Service life in favour of a civilian one will know of the culture shock that entails. It is a far off land of which HMF know little. They are however famously flexible and need to use every inch of that skill set in adapting to this brave new world, including a job. What doesn't happen is that it will adapt to you.

Sillyporep, glad to hear that you made the transition OK. Not sure about the string of letters thing though. Are you saying that I shouldn't have added "GSM and bar" after my name? :E

[Sillyporep]

Not at all, earned and deserved. Sadly it won't mean anything to an employer.

I was referring to the phenomenon present among recently ex servicemen that have CV's listing themselves as MBIM, MILM, AMIPS, etc. Really, every employer I know, including myself, completely ignore them as pretty worthless when it comes to deciding who to interview.