Britannia to serve Tenerife North

[Localiser Green]

I noticed in the Winter 2002/3 schedules that Britannia are starting flights from LGW and MAN to TFN.

Details:

BY257A / B
LGW - TFN
Every Friday 1/11/2002 to 25/4/2003
Equipment: B752

BY131A / B
MAN - TFN
Every Friday 1/11/2002 to 25/4/2003
Equipment: B752

Wonder what the opinion on this is? Seems a poor time of year to be serving this airport given the unpredictable mist / fog formations. Will this be a CAA Category C airfield requiring special crew briefing and route training prior to approval?

I take it this is due to tour operator pressure to get holidaymakers even closer to resorts?

[Stampe]

Well theres good radar down in the Canaries nowadays and its got to be much less challenging than the dreaded LBA.Binter are in and out of there a lot I,ve passengered with them inter-island a lot doesn,t look a problem.From what you say looks as if i may be able to express a more indepth answer next winter!!.

[tailscrape]

Why on Earth would it be CAT C? CAT C is for airfields requiring special considerationand crew training. And one that is very challenging.

TFN fogs out. but it is big and flat and MILES away from the really high ground.

It has a bad reputation, but is in reality a big airfield with Radar.

The 757 is more sophisticated than the poor Dan Air 727 that crashed there. EGPWS, moving map, GPS etc....

I would take a TFN without worrying too much.

[El Grifo]

I fly in and out of there 20 or 30 times a year. in fact I just came off NT 484 into Lanzarote half an hour ago. The jerries use it regularly for their Puerto de la Cruz tourist flights, Spanair use it. There was an Iberia Airbus 340 scheduled for Madrid barajas leaving at the same time as us. They are about half way through building a beautiful new terminal building, so I guess they are expecting big things in the future.

[Pilot Pete]

If it doesn't suffer the windshear problems that TFS does then it would get my vote! I've always thought it looks fine as I fly past it, especially suitable as a diversion option for TFS, even though it's never on the plog as a chosen div.

PP

[Localiser Green]

Sorry guys, I am not (yet) qualified airline-wise and I suppose my opinion of TFN is largely based on the Dan Air 727 and KLM/Pan Am 747s. I agree both accidents would be very unlikely to occur to a 757 today.

I have looked at the charts, nice 11,000+ ft runway and approaches out to the sea at both ends (probably not nearly as bad as Malaga / Dalaman). Just wondered what the BY pilot consensus was since they must be the first charter airline to fly there from the UK in many years.

I imagine, as Stampe said they will give a better picture in the Winter!

Thanks for the replies anyway.

(p.s. Pilot Pete, why is TFN never used as a diversion? Is LPA more typical?)

(p.p.s. tailscrape, not sure who you fly for but am I correct in thinking the only Cat C airports served by UK charters are Funchal, Skiathos and Mykonos? Would be interested to know.)

[Mister Slot]

Add Salzburg to the list.

[Big Tudor]

Also Innsbruck (winter only).

[fmgc]

Samos

& Corfu at night.

[t-bag]

As a thought guys CatC is a company requirement-each is different in their set up - ie to some salzburg and corfu(day or night) are only cat B.
:)

[reno320]

What are You thing my dear friends about Kathmandu,specially now during monsoon season????
By all means one of the worst Cat C a/p.

[TightSlot]

Just guessing, but I wouldn't mind putting money on the move to TFN being related to the bloody awful handling that TFS offers, and that's when some department or other is not on strike.

The TFS terminal is so congested that there are massive problems moving people through it, the administrative support (immig police etc.) are short staffed for the peaks, as are most departments within Iberia - the whole place creaks at the seems on busy days. I don't know, but I'd bet the handling charges are high relative to the service levels offered.

TFN - less congestion, nice new terminal but maybe a longer journey to the resorts? I'll take it any day.

P.S. - (Cabin Crew question) I know they're pretty close to each other, but would there be a fuel saving to TFN, or do we have to carry extra for the weather, that cancels out any potential saving?

[doubledolphins]

Hey, Big Tudor! What do you think happens to the mountains in summer then? Ok the snow melts but they are still there, I am going there three times this month.

[Localiser Green]

t-bag,

"As a thought guys CatC is a company requirement-each is different in their set up - ie to some salzburg and corfu(day or night) are only cat B."

Am I right in thinking therefore that the category rating of each airfield is a matter for decision by the operating airline, not the CAA?

If so then what's the point? Surely a common safety standard should be applied to all carriers operating into these airports? :confused:

TightSlot,

Just to confirm this is not a move by Britannia to TFN, they still serve TFS with pretty much the same schedules as last year. These are additional flights as far as I can tell.

[Big Tudor]

Sorry DoubleD. The question was about charter carriers going to Cat C airfields. Innsbruck is Cat C and we only go there in the winter. Just trying to save typing time. ;)

(See, I try to expand on an answer and I just end up making typo's. Back to SMS for me. CU L8R). :D

[BlueEagle]

Funchal used to be a Cat C, but that was back in the late eighties, has that changed?

Also Gibralter.

[TE RANGI]

I'm a regular into TFN and it generally poses little problem.

Beware though of unpredictable wx changes as the airport is situated at just about the condensation level, so it can get fogged in or low ceilings even when they are not forecast.

Another problem is windshear when ldg/takeoff on the leeward of the high ground, southerly winds being the worst situation. It's usually hard to be precise on speed and glide slope due to orographic effects, so I'd recommend not chasing the speed too much (Vref +5 to 20) and sticking to the GS and then putting it firmly on the ground (this might not work just that well on the 757).

It's cat-B at our outfit. There's a high speed turn off (I believed it's C-1) that comes out handy when landing on rwy 30 but it can place you right head on into taxying traffic at the apron so we've been advised not to use it.

TFS and LPA are nice alternates nearby, but I make it a rule carrying at least an extra 30 min's worth of fuel (more with southerly winds/low QNH).

Hope it helps. Nice flying.:cool: :cool:

[Pilot Pete]

Localizer Green

not sure why TFN is not put down as a suitable alternate for TFS by our company. Alternate selections are made considering a number of factors and usually represent the most commercially desired options for divert. These will include airport facilities, availabilty of fuel, engineering, onward travel costs for moving pax etc etc.

I suspect that TFN has lacked something in the eyes of Flight Ops management (most probably engineering and ground support)within our company over several years as I can't see how it could possibly be cheaper to divert to ACE, LPA or FUE, but hey, that's why I'm not in Flight Ops Management!;)

Obviously, from a safety point of view the pilots on board have the ultimate decision on where to go and depending on the reason for divert TFN may well figure in their options. It should be borne in mind that many pilots may NEVER have been into TFN so that would be a point against diverting there in an emergency when considering options, whereas LPA, ACE and FUE are familiar to all charter crews. It may well come into favour if someone starts using it regularly........especially if a few bob can be saved!!

PP

[t-bag]

Loc green, some places ie Kathmandu and Funchal have local CAA rules with regard to training requirements and operators have to satisfy them before being allowed to operate,others as I said are company reqs.-I guess the CAA issues AOCs to the operator and assumes that they are big enough boys and girls to sort it out!
:)

[Desk Driver]

Have the cleaned up TFN yet. I don't intend to be goulish but 5 years ago the still had small peices of the KL & PA 747's in the grass at the side of the Runway, which appeared pretty poor to me.

[rupetime]

Cant help thinking that if a diversion due WX from TFS was required would the wx in TFN be that much better.....if not
it must be cheaper to divert TFN - coaching pax from LPA, ACE, FUE can't be easy !!!

RT

[tailscrape]

Localiser Green,

No probs. I work for jmc (on loan to another UK airline at the mo though...).

I like the look of TFN, and that north east side of the island looks really attractive.

I would holiday there over the TFS end any day!

p.s. I hope CFU ain't CAT C at night. I landed at night there 2 days ago! Am I nicked yet Mr Greek CAA?!?

Seriously though, it is "only" CAT B with us. I Hope.....

[squeaker]

Perhaps TFN has a bad reputation because the Las Palmas Volmet always refers to it as "Tenerife Naughty".....

[lambchopboy]

LTU have flown there regularly for a while now...i suppose that if BY are flying there from this winter then it's a good bet HF will too!

[Bally Heck]

One reason for TFN not being an alternate for TFS is the lack of ground handling equipment for charter aircraft. (Steps, towbars etc) This will presumably be rectified for future ops.

[Nugget90]

Localiser Green

The answer to your question can be read in JAR-OPS 1, AMC OPS 1.975 'Route and aerodrome competence qualification' (page 2-N-2, if you have a copy handy!).

This supports the JAR itself, which requires that 'an operator shall ensure that, prior to being assigned as commander ... the pilot has obtained adequate knowledge of the route to be flown and of the aerodromes (including alternates), facilities and procedures to be used.'

The AMC (Acceptable Means of Compliance, rather like the US Advisory Circular) states in paragraph 2, 'The Operations Manual should specify a method of categorisation of aerodromes and specify the requirements necessary for each of these categories.' It then goes on to describe what requirements should suit the categorisations A, B and C.

Thus, the responsibility for aerodrome categorisation rests with the operator (subject to the acceptance, in the UK, of the assigned Flight Operations Inspector) and should match the size and handling capabilities/difficulties of the aeroplanes intended to be used.

[jafa]

TFN huh? Pay attention chaps - leaving aside the real ghosts, that is one spooky airfield.

[Honest Fr@nk]

Tafa-
I agree- I've operated into TFN a couple of times and it does give a spooky aura.

[Waldo]

Does anyone operate into Innsbruk with a 757?
I understand our company are starting next winter.Is it suitable?

[Localiser Green]

This last ski season Air 2000, JMC, Transavia and Dutchbird all flew into Innsbruck with the 757-200. Some pretty scenic photos on Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/).

[kick the tires]

Don't forget Skiathos.

[Max Flyup]

t-bag - You are absolutely correct.

"Am I right in thinking therefore that the category rating of each airfield is a matter for decision by the operating airline, not the CAA? " Yes

The Cat C designation is made by the operating airline. For example Mykonos is Cat C with some and not with others.

The only Cat C charter summer destinations that are common to most operators appear to be Samos, Funchal and Skiathos.

[Localiser Green]

These have been going for a fair few months now so what do you Britannia crews think of the Airport (weather / handling etc...)

Also, are the flights full?