Stowaway on BA

[fantom]

BBC tells us a body has been found on the roof of an office block in Richmond and a stowaway has been discovered. Does that mean there were two?

[Exascot]

It looks like it. The other guy was found on landing. Now in hospital. Incredible. Undercarriage Class. I'm never going to pay Buisiness Class ever again. Do they pass drinks down to you?

[ExXB]

Some idiot on the BBC outside source radio program (which is broadcast to the world) was saying 'it's suprising how many stoaways survive'. Something like 25% if you believe them.

No, the correct statement is 'almost always they die'. Just as correct as the previous statement, and sends the right message, don't even think about it.

[Piltdown Man]

It's surprising that any survive. You either die from hypothermia, hypoxia, crush injuries from the mechanical components or falling from aircraft during approach. None of them are a nice way to die.

[Cazalet33]

The u/c clamberers should be congratulated for their prescience in guessing alongside which taxiway to lie in wait for a passing BA flight to EGLL.

Even Jo-burg Twr cannot be expected to guess which taxyway a Speedbird 747 is gonna use when cleared to use any one of the very few reasonably useable taxyways from the terminal to the runway. :}

[richardgb]

Are there any medics who'd care to comment?

Just interested in the body physiology here.

Just how much air is there at 30000 feet and what happens to the body at those temperatures.

Does it shut down in a similar way to say hibernating bears in the arctic. Have any studies been done on volunteers exposed to freezing temperatures for many hours?

[Roadster280]

Are there any medics who'd care to comment?


I'm not a medic, but I'll have a go.



Just how much air is there at 30000 feet and what happens to the body at those temperatures.

About 25% of the oxygen content at sea level, I believe. For all practical purposes, bugger all.

Air temperature is a max of -35C. You freeze.



Does it shut down in a similar way to say hibernating bears in the arctic. Have any studies been done on volunteers exposed to freezing temperatures for many hours?

There are two studies being done right now. One a post-mortem, and another trying to keep the idiot alive.

[Trim Stab]

What I can never understand with these incidents is how there is enough room in the undercarriage well for a body, once the undercarriage is retracted. I would have thought the aircraft designers would not leave any unnecessary space around the retracted gear.

[Basil]

In the Graun (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/19/stowaway-fell-to-death-plane-london-shop-heathrow-richmond):
David Learmount, an aviation expert and consulting editor of Flight International magazine, said the fact that one of the two men survived the long flight suggests he may have been able to get into the baggage hold section of the aircraft, which would raise serious security questions.
I'd say a bit more than just security questions.

[Una Due Tfc]

And how exactly did the survivor manage to exit the baggage hold before the aircraft landed? Shut up Learmount

[frangatang]

Well, l suppose its cheaper than trudging all the way up to libya and catching a boat.

[GlobalNav]

If ever we were to witness survival of the fittest this might be it.

And it should tell us something about the validity that survival of the fittest would actually "improve" the species.

[petitb]

Poor buggers, hard nosed lot are'nt you!.:=

[Old and Horrified]

I'm no medic either, but there have been several programmes on TV recently about people climbing Everest and similar. If any climbers get stuck above about 26,000 feet (the so called death zone) for any length of time then even with full thermal clothing they almost invariably get severe frostbite in fingers, toes and nose.

Unless there is a source of heat in the wheel bay of a 747 (maybe from the floor above?) or this guy was wearing arctic clothing (unlikely, I'd say) then apart from any possible crush injuries and hypoxia effects, my guess is he will loose all his extremities, and I do mean all.

[Serenity]

Good job they didn't have an explosive in their bag!
Major security fault really!!

[JamesT73J]

An unpressurised wheel-well isn't surviveable, so I'm guessing the other guy must have been in the hold?

[tdracer]

A couple years back, a stowaway reportedly survived in the wheel well of a 767, LAX to Hawaii, with few adverse effects (~5-6 hour flight).
I was skeptical of the report but I don't think there was ever a retraction - something like he snuck into the baggage hold before they closed it up. At the time some health care experts said it was possible for the body to go into a hibernation like state and survive (especially if the wheel well didn't get all that cold - heated from the surrounding airplane), but that in most cases the person wouldn't wake up in time to avoid fall out when they lowered the gear.:sad:

[DaveReidUK]

An unpressurised wheel-well isn't surviveable, so I'm guessing the other guy must have been in the hold?Sky report that the survivor was discovered in a landing gear bay.

Stowaway Plunges To Death From BA Plane (http://news.sky.com/story/1504970/stowaway-plunges-to-death-from-ba-plane)

[Planet Basher]

Do the pilots and the airline get fined like truck drivers and their companies for smuggling illegal immigrants?

[Matoki]

Sad that one person is dead and another critical Having worked at 'Jan Smuts' many years ago when security was good, it must be scary for airlines that someone can get into the wheel bay of an aircraft before take off.

[Pace]

We mention 30000 feet but that is unrealistically low for a jet for anything other than the shortest route.

More likely between 34K and 40K where with a depressurisation and no oxygen you have a survival rate in seconds not minutes.

Again the temperatures are likely to be -50 C to -60 in the winter and maybe -35 in hot climates
How anyone can survives for hours I don't know

[The Ancient Geek]

These guys have lived their lives in hot&high conditions so their bodies have a density altitude advantage of up to 10,000 feet over us sea level types.
Maybe (IANADoctor) this gives them the margin to survive.

[Sallyann1234]

There seems to be a general assumption that both stowaways were on the same BA flight.
But I see no evidence that the body found on the roof was from the same plane as the survivor. He could have come from almost anywhere.

[Coltishall. loved it]

Unfortunate gentleman probably did not "fall to his death" more than likely was already dead and the body fell out of under bay as it came down?
As said above, there can't be many places to hide in a undercarriage bay?
How many have been crushed by the gear?

[Flightmech]

Ironic thing is poor bloke will probably be sent back in BA World Traveller!

[olandese_volante]

Technical question:

Are the wheel brakes applied before or during gear up, or are the wheels just allowed to spin down?

Being in intimate company with four or six rapidly revolving wheels would no doubt further increase the risk of a fatal outcome.

[Brian W May]

See why they always say 'Keep your seatbelt fastened at all times' . . .

[Brian W May]

He could have come from almost anywhere..

The sky apparently . . .

[B737900er]

BA seem to have trouble with Jo'berg. Last incident was nearly killing people when they taxied into a building :}

[Trossie]

BA seem to have trouble with Jo'berg.It seems that ACSA have some questions to answer on both: unserviceable lights and questionable security...?

[DaveReidUK]

Are the wheel brakes applied before or during gear up, or are the wheels just allowed to spin down?

Being in intimate company with four or six rapidly revolving wheels would no doubt further increase the risk of a fatal outcome.

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/414827-b747-400-heavy-vibration-after-take-off.html#post5697623 (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/414827-b747-400-heavy-vibration-after-take-off.html#post5697623:)

On the 744 when the gear is selected up the gear doors open. When the gear doors are open a hydraulic sequence valve positioned by the right hand doors ports hydraulics to an actuator (de-spin actuator) which actuates the alternate brake metering valve in the r/h wheel well which is meant to stop the wheels spinning before the gear is swung into the wheel bay. The braking pressure on retraction is sufficient to stop the wheels turning within a revolution.

[Pace]

All in all a pretty dumb and stupid way to try and get a better life as you are almost 100% guaranteed to have NO life attempting such a stunt.

You have to question the mentality of people who attempt stuff like this is it pure ignorance ? Maybe they think they can breathe as well at sea level as at 38 K ( People inside the aircraft breathe so we can too) ? Maybe they think the temperature at sea level will stay the same at 38K?

Maybe their decision process is the same as jumping into the back of a lorry to cross a border and they are ignorant of the science

Google is your best friend! You must have a plan and research is part of that plan. Whatever it must be the most frightening experience once the reality kicks in.
They are people like the rest of us just desperate for a better life and hear of that better life very sad

[d71146]

Its not behind the realms of possibilities that if a stowaway can clamber aboard a 744 on the taxiway or whatever he could also have explosives on his person,just my thoughts.

[Airbanda]

An unpressurised wheel-well isn't survivable, so I'm guessing the other guy must have been in the hold?

That's the case theoretically but there are recorded examples of people surviving.

One in four plane stowaways can survive, but London case is astonishing | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/19/one-in-four-plane-stowaways-survive-london-astonishing)

[Cazalet33]

Ironic thing is poor bloke will probably be sent back in BA World Traveller!

He'll demand an upgrade to Undercarriage Class.

There's more legroom there, y'know.

[Pace]

Its not behind the realms of possibilities that if a stowaway can clamber aboard a 744 on the taxiway or whatever he could also have explosives on his person,just my thoughts.

This is a very serious and ignored point by the media that these stowaways could be an opening for suicide bombers ?

[Pace]

Altitude - Moderate Activity - Sitting Quietly
25 000 feet - 2 minutes - 3 minutes
28 000 feet - 1 minute - 1.5 minutes
30 000 feet - 45 seconds - 1.25 minutes
35 000 feet - 30 seconds - 45 seconds
40 000 feet - 18 seconds - 30 seconds
45,000 feet - ?? seconds - ?? seconds

None of this makes any sense from the training I received

further information released today in the media the Jets average level for the flight was FL350. Duration 8 hours !!!!!! average temp was -55C

As I quoted in my earlier post loss of pressurisation at 35,000 feet before loss of consciousness is measured in seconds not minutes never mind 8 hours :ugh:

quoted was the fact that the only survival possible was access to a baggage hold ? Is this possible from the nose gear area ? To access a pressurised area from a non pressurised area ?

[MathFox]

This is a very serious and ignored point by the media that these stowaways could be an opening for suicide bombers ?
One has demonstrated that he didn't need a bomb to kill himself and the other is critical...

But it is a security issue that these two people could get close enough to the plane to do all kind of nasty things to it, including jumping on board.

[Pace]

Mathfox

It demonstrates with the huge security industry which has evolved since 9/11 all the time we waste at airports and the $billions lost in that time in security checks baggage checks, fluid checks, personal X rays etc.

Where there is a will there will be a way for someone intent on downing an aircraft to do so.

I wonder with aviation whether the security or the industry has become more important? I suspect the industry!

Living in London in a multi cultural society it horrifies me to see the millions boarding the London tubes, packed like sardines on a friday night.

Every ethnicity and religious background allowed to drag cases and handluggage onto the trains totally unchecked but with potential equal damage and loss of life to any aircraft.

We have had the Lubitz murder where systems designed to keep PAX without kept the terrorist pilot within.

As stated where there is a will there will always be a way! Concerning aviation I am convinced the security industry has become all important not the security

[gcal]

Years ago on a 707 at Lagos people opened a hold of the aircraft, not in order to stow away, but to steal the luggage and freight; despite four running engines.
On another occasion an aircraft at high speed clobbered a pedestrian on the active runway. The person was taking the shortest way home on a much used route.
It is not surprising to find ignorance of the likely consequences of their actions; you'll find a similar degree of lack of knowledge in wide percentages of the population, irrespective of country.
It's pretty obvious to me that the present people were simply attempting to find a better life for themselves.
As for security then how much do we hobble ourselves, restrict our lives, just in case? You cannot have perfect security.

[IFIX]

These events do not happen only in africa or under educated countries.

Dead teen found in plane wheel well (http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/06/05/body-found-in-plane-wheel-well/)

There was not a mark on him, but he had frozen solid.

[MTOW]

Years ago on a 707 at Lagos people opened a hold of the aircraft, not in order to stow away, but to steal the luggage and freight; Years ago? When I operated into that Godawful place only a few years ago, a security van with armed police had to follow each aircraft out to the threshold to stop the gangs of thieves from opening the aircraft holds as it taxied out for departure and throwing the baggage out onto the ground.

[Above The Clouds]

To help change the minds of these idiots a new SOP is required once in the cruise, this new procedure should be widely advertised in the public domain.

Gear down, wait 3 minutes, gear up.

[Load Toad]

You think the people that do this are going to be reading such...?

[gcal]

I very much doubt it.

[Airbubba]

To help change the minds of these idiots a new SOP is required once in the cruise, this new procedure should be widely advertised in the public domain.

Gear down, wait 3 minutes, gear up.

Narita has a gear down prior to the coastline procedure when landing to the north.

Supposedly it is for 'ice blocks' but I've been told by our station manager that it was instituted years ago after several stowaways were dropped on densely populated areas under the approach path as the gear came down.

When landing to the south at NRT you fly mostly over woods, agriculture and golf courses.

[misd-agin]

Standard temp at FL370 is -57C. 2C warmer for every 1000' lower.
Std at FL350 would be -53C.

It's not uncommon to have ISA+10(-43C) at altitude.

Slightly warmer then ISA+10 is not unusual but warmer than ISA+15 in the mid 30's would be uncommon.

Many jets have tire temperature displays. My recolllection is that the tires typically are not below 0 Celsius during cruise so they might be adding a slight temperature modulating effect to the wheel well temperature.

[sb_sfo]

Above the clouds,


Your outfit got a lot of spare gear doors in stock?

[Chronus]

The Ancient Greek`s post no 24 does have a point. The stowaways must have been a pair of Yetis seeking asylum for fear of a real threat to their lives under the unbearable hot and humid conditions of Africa. Expect medical examination will soon confirm this and support the survivors lawyers application for permanent leave to stay in the UK.

[Pace]

Not very tasteful but a real threat is one of the bodies jamming the gear extension and causing the aircraft to land minus the nose gear. That is a threat to the aircraft and PAX.

So far the bodies have fallen clear but that does not mean that one in the future won't jam the gear on extension.

It might be worth a visual inspection by a marshaller or even crew prior to departure in suspect areas that no one is contained in the wheel well.
After taxi clearance its unlikely that someone would run across the apron with a tug / marshaller in front who would view proceedings?

[Stan Woolley]

petitb

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: France
Posts: 27
Poor buggers, hard nosed lot are'nt you!.

I couldn't agree more. They were, like us, exactly like us, sons and possibly fathers who deserve much more respect than they are being shown here. Most people here, me included, don't have a scoobie about life in the world outside the west. Amazing how one baby can be born into a life of unspeakable hardship in Africa and one can be born into the royal family in UK. What makes them so different ?

[Pace]

We have all the awful tragedies with the boat people and now some ignorant people thinking the nose wheel of a jet is no different to jumping into a container Lorry.

when they found the reality the fear and the torture they must have gone through in the nose of such a jet it is awful to think about.

You cannot blame them for seeking a better life in their situation we would probably do the same but everyone from these countries moving to the UK or other western developed countries is not the answer.

The answer has to be improving the situation in their own countries and that can only be done by a worldwide effort to bring trade to these countries. How you deal with the dictatorships cruelty and disrespect for their own people by some of the leaders is another and more difficult problem.

[gcal]

@Pace
I'm afraid it is likely that they did indeed get into the aircraft when it was moving.
If you read previous posts you will see that this type of thing is not uncommon.

The whole thing is sad, dreadfully sad, that people will risk their lives in this way; a risk that they may, or may not, know they are taking.

It is not a problem that is going to go away in a hurry either

[silvertate]

Altitude - Moderate Activity - Sitting Quietly
25 000 feet - 2 minutes - 3 minutes
28 000 feet - 1 minute - 1.5 minutes
30 000 feet - 45 seconds - 1.25 minutes
35 000 feet - 30 seconds - 45 seconds
40 000 feet - 18 seconds - 30 seconds
45,000 feet - ?? seconds - ?? seconds

None of this makes any sense from the training I received



Text book figures have a lot of latitude, as they cater for the very average person trying to do complex calculations. If you are super-fit, used to high altitude, and merely sleeping, you can go much higher. I spent three days at 21,000 ft, with no oxy at all, and doing some hard hiking (although I had to stop every 100m).

The real problem is temperature. The wheels might keep you warm for a while, and the warm fuel likewise for a while, but I imagine that the center section gets quite cold after a few hours.

[silvertate]

We have all the awful tragedies with the boat people and now some ignorant people thinking the nose wheel of a jet is no different to jumping into a container Lorry.

You cannot blame them for seeking a better life in their situation we would probably do the same but everyone from these countries moving to the UK or other western developed countries is not the answer.


It is nothing new. They were dropping out of DC-8s in the '70s.

The main problem is modern liberal politicians giving hope to boat people and wheel-well people. If they knew that every attempt resulted in an immediate return back home they would not bother to try. But if there is a small hope, they will be queueing up to try.

So all these deaths are directly caused by our limp politicians, and the blood of thousands is on their hands.

[Una Due Tfc]

Which would get you first, hypoxia or hypothermia?

[Above The Clouds]

sb_ sfo
Your outfit got a lot of spare gear doors in stock?


Why would we, you would of course reduce to VLE/VLO, MLE/MLO first before operating the gear :ok:

[Pace]

Una due TFc

Altitude - Moderate Activity - Sitting Quietly
25 000 feet - 2 minutes - 3 minutes
28 000 feet - 1 minute - 1.5 minutes
30 000 feet - 45 seconds - 1.25 minutes
35 000 feet - 30 seconds - 45 seconds
40 000 feet - 18 seconds - 30 seconds
45,000 feet - ?? seconds - ?? seconds

These are the quoted figures and close to what we are taught for depressurisation
A private jet flying a celebrity Golfer had a rapid depressurisation and was discovered flying on autopilot by fighter jets who went up to check the aircraft out after no response from the crew.

All the crew and PAX who would have all been of differing fitness levels were dead.

We know this Passenger jet was flying at an average of FL350 and the average temperature was -55. The flight time was 8 hrs. The temperature in the wheel well would have been higher than -55 maybe -30 to 35?

i brought a private jet back from Cypress to the UK with a failed heating system to the maintenance unit. We aimed to fly at 18000 all the way in warmer air but were forced up to FL340 by a huge wall of CBS over Greece and Croatia

The outside temperature was minus 50 and with no heating the temperature inside the cabin dropped to minus 20C not minus 50C

it got so cold especially around the floor area I had to fly crossed legged with my feet on the pilot seat and could not feel my feet. We could have elected to use unfiltered air from the jet engines to heat the cabin but instead diverted into LJLJ to thaw out and then set off again at FL 180 We had no PAX. So my guess the temperature in the wheel well would be around -30 to -35 c with an outside temp of =50 to -55C.

Even if you double those survival times printed above for a super fit guy that gives him 1 minute to 1 minute 30 seconds of consciousness.

This flight was 8 hours !

i am sorry but either the figures used for ATPL training are massively inaccurate or something does not add up.

Maybe the extreme cold extended his life period with minimal oxygen ??

I know a child was saved after falling through ice and had been underwater for an hour before being rescued.

This was because of the extreme cold which had slowed the body system right down to a level where the child survived on negligible oxygen.

So if anything the extreme cold would have kept the person alive the lack of oxygen killing him. It is also known with extreme brain damage that reducing the core body temperature allows the brain to recover while the body system is on snail pace and a cometic state. Normal body core temperatures would mean rapid death.

i am not medically qualified but remember reading that the normal heart rate of 70 BPM with reduced core body temperatures will drop to 5 to 10 BPM so it would be the extreme cold which would extend life on minimal oxygen.

Maybe someone medically qualified can comment?

And no I don't recommend anyone flying a jet with no heating it was hell :ugh:;) But then I have done some crazy stuff

[parabellum]

Supposedly it is for 'ice blocks' but I've been told by our station manager that it was instituted years ago after several stowaways were dropped on densely populated areas under the approach path as the gear came down.We were told it was for ice, (1992), after a large lump of blue coloured ice fell through the roof of an old lady's house. That was a news story at the time complete with pictures of old lady/ice block/hole in roof! I think the theory was that lowering the gear introduced some vibration that might shake the ice off, but the bodies in the wheel well also seems a very likely reason too.

[NSEU]

Many jets have tire temperature displays. My recolllection is that the tires typically are not below 0 Celsius during cruise so they might be adding a slight temperature modulating effect to the wheel well temperature.

Are you sure you don't mean brake temperature?

On Boeings these are shown as a 0~9 scale. On one aircraft type, "0" represents 176C or less (including minus zero C values). I recall that, initially, heat from the wheels may be a danger to stowaways, but this effect won't last long. The wheel well doors are not exactly insulated and seals are usually less than perfect.

I'd be interested to know if TAT or SAT would be more indicative of temperatures in the wheel wells.

Some wheel wells may have an extremely hot, uninsulated APU bleed duct running through them, but the APU won't be running for long after takeoff. Once the APU is off, the APU bleed duct valves will close, and there will be no hot airflow going through the wheel well duct. These ducts are probably more likely to injure the stowaway than protect him/her.

Comparing temperatures in the cabin with loss of airconditioning/pressurisation (due to pack failure) to temperatures in the wheel wells is probably not a good idea. The cabin is well insulated and full of heat generating devices: lights, electronics and, of course, people. People are natural heat generators.

[tdracer]

California teen survives flight to Hawaii in jet's wheel well - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-hawaii-california-stowaway-20140420-story.html)


Runaway stowaway survives Calif.-Hawaii flight: FBI - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/runaway-stowaway-survives-calif-hawaii-flight-fbi/)
"Despite the lack of pressurization, or personal O2 equipment, the presence of warm hydraulic lines in the wheel-well and the initially warm tires provided significant heat," the report stated. "The stable climb of the aircraft enabled hypoxia to lead to gradual unconsciousness. As the wheel-well environment slowly cooled, hypothermia accompanies the deep hypoxia, preserving nervous system viability. With descent, and warming, along with increasing atmospheric oxygen pressure, hypoxia and hypothermia slowly resolved. At the ramp, with individuals were found in a semi-conscious state, and, upon treatment, recovered."
So, potentially survivable, but not recommended :=

[megan]

FAA study on the survivability of wheel well pax

http://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/1990s/media/AM96-25.pdf

Also

http://flightsafety.org/hf/hf_may-jun97.pdf

[IFIX]

This stowaway was discovered shortly after take-off, and was safely returned to the same location he/she tried to escape from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_8mdH20qTQ