UK NPAS - The Decline

[G0ULI]

Since the UK NPAS discussion thread is closed.

An article from the Eastern Daily Press lamenting the effective absence of police air cover for Norfolk and surrounding areas. Only a matter of time before major cities are the only areas considered worthy of police air support.

Norfolk has one of worst police helicopter response times in country - and it?s going to get worse - News - Eastern Daily Press (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/norfolk_has_one_of_worst_police_helicopter_response_times_in _country_and_it_s_going_to_get_worse_1_4112067)

Seems to be one of the better press articles published on this matter.

[Sloppy Link]

Oh goody, another NPAS knocking story (or the fuel for the fire). Has it occurred to any of you nay sayers that we are better off now than we would have been had the old, Force funded Air Service been allowed to continue and how corrosive your constant negative comments are. There are individuals out there who are working extremely hard to provide the best service they can within their resources, it is about time you either presented your points to those that have sway in these areas, provided the money yourself to get the service you want or simply STFU.
Hurrumph.

[G0ULI]

Police aviation seemingly flourished under a left(ish) wing government, while the last five years have seen progressive cutbacks in the interests of efficiency by the party that claims to uphold the rule of law and order.

I certainly have addressed my concerns directly to my local MP, only to be met with such comments as the crime level in Norfolk and surrounding counties has fallen, so police air cover is superfluous and does not represent an efficient use of resources.

My personal experience is that helicopters are more efficiently deployed over more open ground and countryside than over densely populated inner city areas, although I respect that other people claim the opposite is true. All citizens are entitled to expect their local police force to have adequate resources on call when needed and with similar response times across the country. Rural and remote areas are precisely those that can most benefit from the rapid transit times of helicopters.

I would suggest that far from knocking NPAS, the story illustrates that the reorganisation offers adequate cover only for the powerful who hold the purse strings and represents a backward step in the capabilities of law enforcement generally for the rest of the populance.

[PANews]

Police aviation seemingly flourished under a left(ish) wing government, while the last five years have seen progressive cutbacks in the interests of efficiency by the party that claims to uphold the rule of law and order.

I certainly have addressed my concerns directly to my local MP, only to be met with such comments as the crime level in Norfolk and surrounding counties has fallen, so police air cover is superfluous and does not represent an efficient use of resources.

My personal experience is that helicopters are more efficiently deployed over more open ground and countryside than over densely populated inner city areas, although I respect that other people claim the opposite is true. All citizens are entitled to expect their local police force to have adequate resources on call when needed and with similar response times across the country. Rural and remote areas are precisely those that can most benefit from the rapid transit times of helicopters.

I would suggest that far from knocking NPAS, the story illustrates that the reorganisation offers adequate cover only for the powerful who hold the purse strings and represents a backward step in the capabilities of law enforcement generally for the rest of the populance.
Yes it has been hard times and lots of toes (and careers) have been trodden on, but the road NPAS are travelling is still not at the end so though we may have detrimental opinions we on the outside cannot see where it really might end up.
It is worth noting that the force areas making the most noise at the moment are those with the least demonstrated requirement for air support.
Dyfed with around 300 hours and the same with Norfolk and Suffolk.
How were they able to ensure that those meagre 300 hours a year were always available at the right times?
Well they were not were they!
In each case of emergency need they either did without or they called in the neighbours. SAEW for Dyfed and Essex for East Anglia that's why there was a preexisting consortium.
They now call that mutual aid set up NPAS......
Time will decide

[MaxR]

PAN - To suggest that Norfolk and, particularly, Suffolk had to call on Essex pre-NPAS is, given your supposed position of knowledge on all things Air Support, at best disingenuous.

[PANews]

I do not live in Suffolk or Norfolk but have personally witnessed both Suffolk and Cambridge aircraft flying over my house on the edge of the MPD on seperate occasions prior to the creation of NPAS. That was the basis of the consortium, mutual aid.

As you may be suggesting I am not able to substantiate in like manner any reverse traffic for a need of air support - or indeed any need for such air support beyond perhaps hare coursing.

[Coconutty]

Anyone know WHY the "UK NPAS discussion thread: MK 5" (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/556712-uk-npas-discussion-thread-mk-5-a-15.html) was closed ?

Just when it was getting interesting again about new Bases being announced,
or Closed, or announced and then not openiing, etc :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[MightyGem]

Silsoe going into meltdown I think.

[MightyGem]

Has it occurred to any of you nay sayers that we are better off now than we would have been had the old, Force funded Air Service been allowed to continue
I'm not so sure. Take the last round of cuts that are going to take NPAS down to 15 bases. As a separate organisation, they had to to make X% cuts, so they had no option but to close bases. If Air Support had still been on a Force basis, those Forces could have chosen how and where to make those cuts. I suspect that we may have had a few more than 15 ASUs still up and running.

Of course, I could be talking bo**ocks.

[G0ULI]

The time for discussion about UK NPAS is over. The decisions have been made and are being implemented.

It is still useful to have a thread to collect UK NPAS news and comments and to see how the predicted performance of the reorganisation pans out.

[jimf671]

The time for discussion about UK NPAS is over. ... ...

No such thing. I think you mean England and Wales NPAS. Or, increasingly, England NPAS.

[Senior Pilot]

Anyone know WHY the "UK NPAS discussion thread: MK 5" (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/556712-uk-npas-discussion-thread-mk-5-a-15.html) was closed ?

Just when it was getting interesting again about new Bases being announced,
or Closed, or announced and then not openiing, etc :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

Unfortunately SS deleted the thread, as he was the thread starter. I undeleted and closed it as the history of posts was too important to lose.

[Sloppy Link]

G0ULI, "Police aviation seemingly flourished under a left(ish) wing government"......and so did the rest of the nation because that government borrowed money with an utter disregard for the consequences. It is the last and this government that are now reaping the discourse of that economic irresponsibility, and there is little choice but to pass this on to the Nation in the form of cuts in Publicly funded areas. We are where we are.

[ShyTorque]

Sloppylink, I totally agree. In the late 1990s we had a very effective police support helicopter service in place and at a pretty good price (or at least, my unit was seen to be very good value; possibly because it covered two counties and provided coverage for at least two others when requested).

It wasn't the present government who £!$$ed taxpayers' money against the wall until there was none left and we couldn't afford what was already in place (ironically, initially put there to make the police more effective whilst saving money for the tax payer....).

[Coconutty]

Thanks for that update SP.

I for one hope Sid continues to contribute.

I know some of his posts are controversial and may not be shared by all,
but he has also made many valid arguments and valuable contributions
based on his "inside" information and expert knowledge,
dspite being tethered by the confines of what he is "permitted" to say.

I have enjoyed reading and contemplating many of his posts,
especially if you weed out some of the rhetoric. :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[J.A.F.O.]

Sloppy Link, Shy Torque - Couldn't agree more. Well said.

[Nail The Dream]

Yesterday evening Twitter Posts - Interesting :rolleyes: :

NPAS Exeter : Transport Patient (from) Treliske (Devon) to NPAS Filton for
NPAS HusBos to take Patient to Sheffield Hospital for Transplant. Patient delivered in time.
https://twitter.com/npas_exeter

and

NPAS HusBos : First job of late shift was to transport someone requiring a Kidney transplant
from Bristol to Sheffield for an operation. A bit Different !
https://twitter.com/npas_husbos

LOTS of questions spring to mind, like how much NPAS are charging the NHS for this service,
especially taking into account the impact and loss of service with ( Police ) aircraft being off-line
and unavailable for Policing Operations ( that are being paid for by respective Forces ) for several hours.

AND, what does the "new" PAOM say about "Patient Transfers" ?
Was this an immediate threat to the life of the patient ?
( IIRC Patient Transfers were not previously permitted under the PAOC,
but "Casevacs" in immediately life threatening circumstances could be carried out )

And, Is this a new practice to be adopted by NPAS to try and bolster the coffers by charging the NHS for such services,
at the expense of an even further reduced service to the Police ?

And, What alternative measures were put in place by NPAS "Command" to provide Police Air Support cover
in the areas that the 2 aircraft carying out this Patient Transfer would otherwise have been covering ?

And, why was this task not performed by one of the many Air Ambulances along the route(s),
or why was this Task not performed by Military / Coast guard etc ?

The decline of NPAS ?

Nail

[Shackman]

As an aside, Treliske Hospital is in Truro, Cornwall, which leads to a very long transit. Up to not very long ago for a job like that a yellow (or grey/red RN) helo would have been the most likely conveyance, although the NHS would probably have been charged under the arcane and quite mysterious Treasury rules. Now of course SAR is a civilian organisation (as is NPAS) so, by the sounds of it, the lines are getting even more blurred.

However, as NtD alludes to below, is this a sensible usage of police dedicated resources? Who would have picked up the pieces if there was an urgent police requirement in the west? I'm only an interested bystander now but it seems to be a dilution of the task (or maybe just additional tasks being added piecemeal).

Equally of note, during my time on SAR in Norfolk (showing my age as this was many years ago) we provided a lot of assistance to the police in searches and the like, and led to very close cooperation. This usage of course did not appear in any police stats as it was almost all ad hoc; unfortunately it ceased almost as soon as police helicopters started appearing

[ShyTorque]

This usage of course did not appear in any police stats as it was almost all ad hoc; unfortunately it ceased almost as soon as police helicopters started appearing As did the little publicised training of police and fire service air observers using RAF aircraft.

[[email protected]]

Shackman - a small correction, milsar is still there in the SW - Chiv is open until 30 Sep 15 and Culdrose SAR until Jan 16.

I am surprised that SAR aircraft were not used for those transfers and I can only assume the ARCCK said no because they were not life threatening illnesses.

[misterbonkers]

So Nial, NPAS do something positive and you bash them for it?!?

Could the transfer have been so easy to arrange pre NPAS?

Do you really think they would have used NPAS had there been alternatives?

I'm bored and tired of this NPAS bashing.

In the words of Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

[homonculus]

We do not normally undertake transplants on 'sick' patients. The typical recipient will be someone with long term kidney failure having dialysis a couple of times a week and living a normal life.

So I presume some chap at work was told a kidney had come up for him or her, and rather than bring the kidney to him, could he pop up to Sheffield.

Logically we would get a blood transfusion vehicle to drive the kidney to the patient - it lasts in ice for many hours. Failing that we used to get a traffic police vehicle to drive the patient up. I don't recall the NHS ever being charged but it was a matter of a few hundred pounds. Nowadays there is a contracted fixed wing service which goes to collect kidneys ie takes them from donors as well.

So the use of a police or SAR helicopter by a cash strapped NHS and a resource strapped police and SAR service does seem to be something that deserves a smack on the wrist

[Nail The Dream]

It's Nail, Not Nial !

You also seem to have misread the rest of my Post - I haven't "bashed" NPAS for this at all -
merely raised a few questions then after pointing out what happened,
as is my Democratic right as a UK Taxpayer

As it happens my PERSONAL Opinion is that this was NOT a good use
of Police Aircraft,
but then I don't know "all" of the facts.

LIke I don't know WHY they had to be transported by Air at all,
other than there was probably a Kidney waiting in Sheffiled
that would only last for a certain length of time.

Pre NPAS - YES the Transfer would have been easy to arrange,
if it was Life Threatening, as Crab has pointed out.
Post NPAS it would seem, at least for now, that this is still the case.

Do I think they would have requested NPAS if there were alternartrives ? -
YES - if "they" thought that they could get away without having to pay !

I'm sorry if you are bored by what you describe as NPAS Bashing,
but is it not actually a good idea to raise such issues and concerns for discussion -
for the BENEFIT of NPAS and those Police forces receiving their services ? :ok:

As I understand things this was NOT an immediately Life Threatening scenariio, so SAR were either not requested, or declined a request.

Why weren't Air Ambulances used ? - The nights are only just now starting to draw in, so no problems of them not being able to fly at night,
but I suspect there are still some Political differences of opinion between some of the various Air Ambulance charities and NHS Trusts,
so maybe that was why NPAS were approached instead.

What concerns me more than what I believe may have beeen an inappropriate use of the aircraft,
is that I would not be at all surprised if the costs are NOT passed on to the NHS, who will then see it as a Green light
to request such Transfers again and again - and who can blame them when they are also strapped for cash ?

NPAS is / was supposed to about providing a Cost effective and effficient service to the Police,
and if their Hours are going to be effectively wasted like this, while leaving large areas of the Country
with little or no Police Air Support, then I really do wonder what the thought processes were,
of whoever authorised those Flights ?

By all means utilise any spare capacity to provide additional chargeable services,
but when the level of UK Police Air Support has already been so drastically cut,
how can such Tasks be justified in non Life Threatening circumstances -
even if the costs are recovered ?

Nail

[John Eacott]

In Australia (specifically Victoria) this type of work is not the exclusive remit of EMS or public service helicopters.

I had a long standing arrangement with our trauma management to transport organs and even organ teams as required, day or night, and was paid for the service by the hospital. Obviously slightly different to the UK since distances are significant issues, generally harvested organs would be brought in an esky by a scheduled domestic airline and we would meet them on the ramp and then fly to the designated hospital. Organ teams would be taken to a regional hospital to gather the donated organs (a long job, obviously) and we'd then return the team plus harvested organs.

I got involved because of the very reason discussed here, the suitable use of our local VicPol helicopters and EMS machines. Not only did such work take them away from their core tasking but the inter-agency charges were actually quite a lot more than my commercial rates.

[Sky Sports]

A kidney became available in Sheffield at short notice.
The NHS went down the list of patients that matched the kidney.
The top handful were not available/willing to have the transplant at such short notice.
Next on the list was this guy, (who was on holiday). He agreed.
He was a walking 'patient' who sat in a seat during the transfer.

[misterbonkers]

Sorry Nail.

It's a great escapade - logistics and good practise for the future with the uses that NPAS will have - watch this space.

Each aircraft kept close to operating area by 'relaying'.

An excellent practise at shuffling and arranging aircraft about.

Some guy got an important op he needed before the organ went off.

The public sector would have paid for it no matter what transport option was used.

With very high fixed costs the more you fly the cheaper it gets!

[Nail The Dream]

misterbonkers,

You really are !

"IF" NPAS were paid for this Patient Transfer by the NHS then that is one thing,
and there would "only" ( :rolleyes: ) be the not insignificant matter
of the reduction in POLICE service during those few hours to chew over.

So - does anyone know - WILL NPAS be paid for this ?

I also wonder just how long in time it actually took - from the moment that the specific patient
was identified as beng the recipient, to his ultimate arrival at Sheffield Hospital ? .......

Phone call from Transplant Team to the Recipient who agrees, then what ?

Maybe up to half an hour or even more for the Transplant Team to consider all the options,
to dismiss Air Ambulance, SAR, and Blood Bike options,
find the Contact details and make the request to NPAS, ( 0h 30m )
then another 15 minutes or so for NPAS to consider and obtain the authority to conduct the Task, ( 0h 45m ),
then another 15 minutes to identify the "Nearest aircraft", determine that it will need 2 aircraft or a refuel stop to complete the journey,
decide whch option to use and then arrange the second aircraft,
and get the first one airborne and en route to Treliske - quite possible that an hour could have already passed by now. ( 1h 00m )

Approximately 80 mile Transit ( assuming from Base ) to Treliske - 40 Minutes.
( 1h 40m )
For sake of argument 20 minute turn-around for Passenger to be briefed and loaded and to get airborne. ( 2h 00m )
140 mile transit to Filton - an hour and 10 minutes ( 3h 10m )
10 - 15 minute handover and transfer patient to NPAS HusBos - assuming they had arrived, ( 3h 20m )
Another 140 mile transit to Sheffield Hospital = another 1 Hour 10 minutes,
making a total of approximately 4 hours 30 minutes.

Sticking to the Speed limit you can drive ( without Blues & Two's ) from Treliske to Sheffield in 5 hours and 25 minutes :cool:
I reckon half an hour could easily shaved from that.

So, convince me this was best use of a cash strapped POLICE air service
even if only a proportion of the costs WERE paid for by the NHS, which I very much doubt :
( The following figures are VERY approximate - based on cross charges that HAVE been levied previously, but are only used to demonstrate the point ) :

Completing the journey by road : Approx. 340 miles = £60 worth of petrol each way,
or, saving half an hour - using around 4 Hours 50 minutes total flying time
( if both aircraft re-positioned back to their Bases )
at around £1200 per hour = £5800.00 :rolleyes:

Nail

[misterbonkers]

Yes I may well be. Keep bashing.




misterbonkers,

You really are !

"IF" NPAS were paid for this Patient Transfer by the NHS then that is one thing,
and there would "only" ( :rolleyes: ) be the not insignificant matter
of the reduction in POLICE service during those few hours to chew over.

So - does anyone know - WILL NPAS be paid for this ?

I also wonder just how long in time it actually took - from the moment that the specific patient
was identified as beng the recipient, to his ultimate arrival at Sheffield Hospital ? .......

Phone call from Transplant Team to the Recipient who agrees, then what ?

Maybe up to half an hour or even more for the Transplant Team to consider all the options,
to dismiss Air Ambulance, SAR, and Blood Bike options,
find the Contact details and make the request to NPAS, ( 0h 30m )
then another 15 minutes or so for NPAS to consider and obtain the authority to conduct the Task, ( 0h 45m ),
then another 15 minutes to identify the "Nearest aircraft", determine that it will need 2 aircraft or a refuel stop to complete the journey,
decide whch option to use and then arrange the second aircraft,
and get the first one airborne and en route to Treliske - quite possible that an hour could have already passed by now. ( 1h 00m )

Approximately 80 mile Transit ( assuming from Base ) to Treliske - 40 Minutes.
( 1h 40m )
For sake of argument 20 minute turn-around for Passenger to be briefed and loaded and to get airborne. ( 2h 00m )
140 mile transit to Filton - an hour and 10 minutes ( 3h 10m )
10 - 15 minute handover and transfer patient to NPAS HusBos - assuming they had arrived, ( 3h 20m )
Another 140 mile transit to Sheffield Hospital = another 1 Hour 10 minutes,
making a total of approximately 4 hours 30 minutes.

Sticking to the Speed limit you can drive ( without Blues & Two's ) from Treliske to Sheffield in 5 hours and 25 minutes :cool:
I reckon half an hour could easily shaved from that.

So, convince me this was best use of a cash strapped POLICE air service
even if only a proportion of the costs WERE paid for by the NHS, which I very much doubt :
( The following figures are VERY approximate - based on cross charges that HAVE been levied previously, but are only used to demonstrate the point ) :

Completing the journey by road : Approx. 340 miles = £60 worth of petrol each way,
or, saving half an hour - using around 4 Hours 50 minutes total flying time
( if both aircraft re-positioned back to their Bases )
at around £1200 per hour = £5800.00 :rolleyes:

Nail

[jayteeto]

Cost aside, does the PAOC allow this flight? Was a question asked earlier. If it doesn't, did they break any rules?
I seem to remember AOC flights were allowed.

[Nail The Dream]

I believe that only a matter of days ago ( 19th June ? ) it was cleared
that "non CAA approved passengers" CAN be carried with the permission of the NPAS SLT.

So IF this flight received such approval in advance, then at least it would have been legal :rolleyes:

( Unlike another rumour I heard of a couple of months back, where members of a family from Yorkshire
were flown in an NPAS helicopter to a hospital in Wales in order for them to see a relative in hospital down there ! :eek: )

But we digress - I hope there are no calls for Patient Transfers this evening / tonight,
knowing the state of available Police Air Cover for the Midlands Region
( where I live and where we used to get 24 Hour Police Air Support within
a few minutes of it being requested ), AND in the South West Region ! :uhoh:

Nail

[Nail The Dream]

It's gone VERY quite in here - perhaps no-one cares about the ever deteriorating state of UK Police Air Support any more ?

I wonder what the various Chief Constables and Police Authority members think now, after they were either Press-Ganged into signing up for NPAS, or tempted to do so by promises of a more efficient service at a reduced cost, and 24 hours a day cover, when they hear stories of :

A cash strapped NPAS allowing aircraft to be used for non life threatening Patient Transfers, paid for out of the NPAS budget, leaving little or no cover for "Police" work in huge areas,

Greater cuts in the helicopter fleet than originally intended with re-assurances that the loss of Rotary cover would be made up by the introduction of a Fixed Wing fleet, mand those plans now looking more likely than ever that they won't materialise at all,

Pilots considering taking NPAS to Court for unfair dismissal - after the ludicrous way staff had to bid for jobs when certain Base closures were announced, and those voting to work from a particular new base that had been announced, found out the very next day after nominations closed, that this new Base was not happening after all,and it was now too late for them to nominate another Base in their Region as the staff in Post there had been confirmed in position, because their had been no other nominations at the closing date!

An aircraft normally providing Night shift cover for Birmingham (the 2nd City!) was re-deployed to operate from Filton and provide cover for the South West AND Midlands Regions,

There might be times when there are only 5 helicopters available to cover the whole of Engand & Wales,

Despite all the cutbacks, staffing issues, and lack of aircraft available on-line, justification can still be made to attend "Important events" such as the "Armed Forces" Day ( An event I wholeheartedly support - but is there a NEED for a POLICE helicopter to be there? I didn't realise the police were categorised as an "Armed Force" as only a few of them are armed - though AFAIK, none of the aircrew are routinely armed :rolleyes: ),

In an attempt to show how good things are in NPAS land, a Procurment Plan for standardising equipment resulted in a new design of Despatchers Harness mbeing purchased for every aicraft, without consutation of the "end users" such that many respected and knowledgable Staff members raised objections and refused to use them on the grounds that they were unsafe/impractical, but to no avail, as existing serviceable harnesses were confiscated and shredded - despite having a resale value !

..... and so on ......

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

But like I say, it looks like no-one cares any more, or those that do, and who are doing their utmost to continue providing the best service they can in the circumstances, have been silenced :hmm:

Nail (in the coffin).

[RotaryWingB2]

Well said. It's sad to watch.

[RichiePAO]

Here's an interesting thought as aircraft get fewer and fewer and transit times get greater......
In the olde days a unit that I know of was completing an average of about 3 tasks an hour.
I wander what the average sortie times are now?
Of course with greater transit times there is a greater cost per task. Are Forces burning their annual budget based on flying hours now on aircraft travelling long distances to get to the incident?
Less efficient than the olde days one might say.......

[Phil Space]

Looks like someone has had his wings clipped.:oh:

[Romeopapa]

It appears someone has had his wings clipped?

[Nail The Dream]

"Someone" ?? - I suspect that's everyone that still has a job with NPAS - for fear of losing it.

The pre-NPAS culture of being encouraged to voice opinions and express views
openly without fear of reprisal appears to be a thing of the past.

Bizarrely, despite all the Base closures, there are still Staff vacancies, not only for Pilots,
but for "TFO's" too - looks like there might be a fair but of ship jumping going on !
https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/search_engine/jobs.cgi?SID=amNvZGU9MTQ3MTcwNyZ2dF90ZW1wbGF0ZT02NTcmb3duZXI 9NTAyNzQwOSZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZicmFuZF9pZD0wJnJlcXNpZz0xNDM 2MTU5NDY5LWE1MjUxYmUzNzQwYzk1YzQ0ZjM1NGUyMjgyNjMyZGVmZGUzZGQ 1Yzg=

Anyone know what NPAS are offering as Pilot Salary these days,
and any re-location packages that might be dangled in their direction ?

Nail

[Romeopapa]

Silence = memo from above? :rolleyes:

[Nail The Dream]

It certainly seems that way !

Does anyone else remember the anonymous discusssions, reports, and even criticisms,
that were actively ENCOURAGED within UK Police aviation pre NPAS ?

I'm referring to the Flight Safety reporting scheme, that was administered IIRC, by one of the first Police Air Units to be closed by NPAS :hmm:
The scheme was very simple - Any Flight Safety issue, or in-flight incident of note, or CRM topic etc,
could be reported openly and anonymously ( if so desired ) and was then promulgated
around all of the other Units for their information and attention.

With the Clutha Bar AAIB report due out "soon", it might be an ideal time,
( in view of NPAS SMT's rumoured "Memo(s) from above" to their staff NOT to discuss NPAS on Public Forums ),
to have a think about whatever Safety Management System / Reporting Scheme NPAS have adopted to replace the one referred to above.
I really do hope that whatever is now being used, isn't constrained by similar "Memo's", such that incidents which might otherwise be reported
for eveyone's benefit ( and SAFETY ), are effectively censored out due to the report writer fearing potential personal consequences ? :eek: :ugh: :rolleyes: :mad:

Nail

[Romeopapa]

No names but like Icarus sailing too close to the sun can cause problems.

If you don't like the heat get out of the kitchen but never bite the hand that feeds you.:ok:

And remember do not discuss NPAS ops on a public forum.

I hear some have had a talking to?

Senior Management Team not happy ;-)

[Fortyodd2]

Nail,
The new SMS/Incident/Occurence reporting system adopted by NPAS is a web based system called Sirocco.

From a bit of a slow/restricted start - it's now opened up a bit more and seems to be working well.

[Nail The Dream]

... and seems to be working well.

Really ? Working well for who exactly ?

NPAS Management probably think it's working well, if they aren't receiving any reports of Saftey issues
that need to be addressed, as that means everything is just fine - doesn't it ?

Or does it mean that reports are simply not being submitted any more, (and Safety issues are therefore not being highlighted )
as such reports could appear to be criticising NPAS, and after the Gypsies warnings that are rumoured to have gone around,
the culture change is such that Staff don't want to risk falling foul of the SMT - when the next round of job cuts comes along ? :ugh:

Nail

[Fortyodd2]

Nail, it's working - over 360 reports so far this year.
Staff will use it if they have confidence in it.
If it just becomes another stick to batter the staff with then they won't.
For now it's an improvement over what was there before.
Whilst it's far from perfect, not everything post NPAS is bad.

[Nail The Dream]

Thanks Fortyodd2,

It's good to hear that someone has confidence in it ;)

A bit like some other statistics that get reported though,
didn't they commence the numbering of reports this year
with Number 100 or 101 ? ( Why would they do that ? ).

... so if the latest report is numbered 360 ( ish ),
that would be over 260, not 360 so far this year ?
( Approx 1.3 reports per day ).

Do you know if the number of reports being submitted
HAS reduced significantly since the NPAS "warnings" :hmm:

Nail

[T F O]

Not everything we do in the police is for public consumption Nail, some of it is even secret!
If your that desperate for your NPAS fix then why not apply for a job and you could see first hand how hard everyone is working and what a good job we do.
You would even get the opportunity to discuss your concerns with the SMT and pass on your wisdom.

[Nail The Dream]

T F O ( Awww - bless! ),

You made a few assumptions there, like I don't KNOW what the range of Operations conducted by NPAS include - whether "Secret" or not,
and whether I have any first hand knowledge of how hard ( some ) NPAS employees ( i.e. the ones at the Sharp end ) are working during each and every shift.

It's my experience ( and perception ) - shared by many, that "Wisdom" is not always welcomed
when it's travelling up the chain of command - especially when those at the top
THINK they know better, and will NOT be told otherwise.

You may think that I am "Anti-NPAS", and that's not actually correct either.

I want NPAS to succeed, but I don't see many signs of this,
and very few reports ( at least in here ) of how it IS working more effectively and cost efficiently, than during pre NPAS days,
despite several previous Posts from Forum Members asking for examples.

To the Contrary there seem to be plenty of examples of how NPAS is NOT working to those original Aims,
and many of those don't get brought out into the Public domain either. :ugh:

Nail

[Sloppy Link]

It's takes little effort to be negative.

[snaggletooth]

Nial take a chill pill FFS

[Romeopapa]

Nail uses some familiar syntax that a regular poster used here before the memo went round?

Could it be another ex Wallop NCO?

[Nail The Dream]

"Syntax" ? ? ! ! :8

No -I'm not that other person you're thinkimg about,
just someone else that is / was passionate about the Service that used to be provided,
who remains concerned about its dessimation, and is still prepared and able -
unlike those that are not, or cannot, speak out.

Who else is questioning what is going on ?

Sniggle ? - not you obviously - you're way to chilled out
to see the Redundancy Notices flyging around in the next cuts.

Guess what happens when no-one questions ? - There are no answers.

It's easy to be Negative when there are lots of things going wrong.
It's not so easy to be positive when there's little to be positive about.

Out.

NAil

[snaggletooth]

Nial,
decimate /desˈi-māt/
transitive verb
To take or destroy the tenth part of
To punish by killing every tenth man
(loosely) to reduce very heavily
ORIGIN: L decimāre, -ātum, from decimus tenth, from decem ten
decimāˈtion noun
decˈimātor noun

In addition to adressing your poor spelling you could also improve on your use of parentheses, punctuation and capitalisation which would help make you appear less of a histrionic teenager.

Or just take a chill pill FFS.

[T F O]

Nail maybe people are questioning things but doing it in the correct manner and not via a pointless Internet forum.

[Romeopapa]

Nail

Can I just make a few suggestions here.

Police Air Ops pilots are hired hands to chauffeur the cops.

Its the same as driving the oilys out to the rigs or the rich folks to the races.

You are paid to fly the helicopter which is an airborne taxi or bus.

You can dress up as much as you want with white shirts or bonedomes but the bottom line is you are being paid to drive the machine not manage the organisation.

The same goes for flight crew at Ryanair.

If you want to run the NPAS or have input then you are in the wrong game.

Silsoe Sid spent the last few years here moaning about a job that it appears he was not happy with. I understand his absence is because of a some serious words of advice that a few of the NPAS pilots and crew have had from above regarding chat on forums.

Tube train drivers are on about the same money but have a bit more collective clout if you pardon the pun. No one cares if police pilots went on strike and there are many out there happy to take what is a cushy number for good pay to fly a nice helicopter.

If you don't like the job move somewhere else.:ok: (or buy your own helicopter)

And if you really want to see what real hard work in difficult conditions for a lot less pay but more job satisfaction is like look here. http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/483614-top-world-photos-nepal-152.html

[Nail The Dream]

Snoggle,

I do apologise most humbly - You see I AM a "Historic Teenager" and I have been
ever since I achieved the age of 20 - which was quite a while ago :rolleyes:

I must concede though, that you ARE quite right !
It's NOT a tenth ( of UK Police Air Support ) that has been destroyed -
it's a LOT MORE than that - Thanks for pointing it out to everyone ! :D

( As you seem to have plenty of time on your hands for such -
and don't appear to have anything to contribute to the Topic being discussed,
other than childishly criticising Grammer, Punctuation and Spelling,
would you be so kind as to advise if the phrase "You Pompous Tw@"
would be grammatically correct, if one were to use it ? )

Before signing off, possibly for a while if I have nothing else to add,
I'd like to say "Thanks" to several Forum Members that have provided information to me -
straight from the Horses mouth, sorry horses, no ... horse', oh stuff it,
from within NPAS, confirming some of the rumours I had heard and have mentioned,
and several others that I can't or won't repeat in Public.

Perhaps those that CAN still be bothered, and / or are still able to post here, ( like T F O ),
do have a point, and that this Subject is now quite Pointless,
as whatever is said here is unlikely to have any impact on the service.

But does that mean I / We / You just leave it, and not discuss it again,
and not raise questions that really do need to be raised,
in case somone gets a bit upset when nerves are touched ? ...... Naaah ! .....

( Like the Nerves that were touched when that "NPAS Hitler Video" was publicised :ooh: )

I have it on very good authority that at a fairly recent Conference it was mentioned
that "Heads would roll" if another NPAS Hitler video appeared in Public.

I haven't ( yet ) seen "another" Hitler video,
so will just have to make do with the original,
until the next one hits the shelves :rolleyes:

Here it is again in case you missed it the first time around :p

a88Rc4RhQJk

Nail

[Romeopapa]

Nail

You need to check the chip detector.....

on your shoulder:ok:

Sounds like you are another NCO Wallop brat:=

Frankly the NPAS do not need pilots who have issues and maybe a clean broom is needed.

[MightyGem]

Could it be another ex Wallop NCO?
And what if it is?

[timex]

Romeopapa, what is wrong with Wallop? Sounds like the chip is firmly on your shoulder (s) and for what its worth I
would imagine 60-70% of Police Pilots are ex Wallop?

[snaggletooth]

histrionic /his-tri-onˈik/ or histrionical /his-tri-onˈi-kəl/
adjective
Of or relating to the stage or actors
Stagy, theatrical
Affected
Melodramatic
Hypocritical
ORIGIN: L histriōnicus, from histriō an actor
hisˈtriō (from L) or hisˈtrion (from Fr) noun (pl hisˈtriōs or hisˈtrions) (archaic)
An actor

[Romeopapa]

It just appears they have inferiority complex issues as displayed by Silsoe.

Nice job and nice pay but he was never happy hence his rants on here.

Just spool back through all his posts and explain why he moaned so much?

Had he been through Dartmouth or Cranwell he would have discovered the officer training is all about taking care of those beneath you and never ever complaining about those above.

You can learn a lot about pilots and peope by looking at what a real hard flying job for a lot less pay is like by a humble wonderfull example to us all.

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/483614-top-world-photos-nepal-152.html

[Rotate too late]

RP I genuinely have a lot of time for your input, but, this NCO thing is a bit weird (why Wallop specifically?), I've met many NCO's both good and bad, but that goes for commissioned officers as well.....as for Nepal....happy to admit to being a wuss!!! :ok:

[Nail The Dream]

Some of you are just SO funny, and way off the mark !

Snuggle - I think you've lost the Plot - is this going to be renamed the "NPAS Thesaurus" Topic ! ?

Just to put the record straight, I checked back, and have never stated that I am an NPAS pilot,
so that is pure guesswork and conjecture on your part(s) and all those comments,
inferences and attempted insults have been a waste of time ;)

I have NO chips to worry about, or indeed anything else I may choose to wear on my shoulders.

RP - while you've got your Broom out,
how about giving your own closet a sweep and getting rid of all your 'Ye Olde Pilot' hang-ups ?
IIRC your two lads went through Cranwell and Dartmouth didn't they,
but failed to reach Flight Training ?

Maybe that explains a lot of YOUR attitude, and outlook on life,
but it is hardly relevant to the subject of "The demise of NPAS".

Nail

[Woowooneenor]

I get frustrated by the negativity on here and will attempt some reasoning...

5 years ago, we had a thriving Police air support service with 33 bases UK wide

Then NPAS was created (and more importantly MASSIVE financial cuts to Policing by the tories) so we now have just 23 bases and a reduced service to what we had previously.

These cuts would have happened regardless of NPAS and base closures were likely to occur anyway.

This year, further cuts to Policing have been announced and the forces nationwide voted for a further reduction of 14% to air support. NPAS has achieved these savings by opting for a new 15 base 24 hr model with the introduction of some fixed wings (if they happen)

Clearly going from 33 bases down to 15 is going to be massively detrimental. Longer transit times / response times, less aircraft availability as they are all committed elsewhere, more strain to airframes, pilots, staff.

The last five years has seen a huge deterioration to UK air support. But is it NPAS to blame? or the root cause (huge over the top budget cuts from the tories)

OK I wont go as far to say that NPAS is perfect, far from it. But I think it is unfair to place all the blame onto NPAS.


Now rather than berate NPAS and pick on all the negatives, why not point out some improvements since NPAS?

- Borderless policing has definitely improved under NPAS. Never before have UK helicopters been so available to different forces, relatively promptly.

- We now have a nationwide downlink service and any aircraft can transmit images to any force now.

- The home office are working on a 4G voice/data network for UK aircraft and NPAS are a major voice now in how that will be set up - Pre NPAS, with individual bases, I doubt we would have had anywhere near the input NPAS have had in this.

- Sirocco. Although some negativity has been shown towards Sirocco, I totally disagree. I think it is an awesome system. Never before have all UK Police air support bases been able to share problems, issues, and have access to the system from any computer 24/7. If a problem occurs up north, the bases down south see the report as soon as its posted. The comments that NPAS prevent pilots / TFO's from reporting problems are unfounded imo. In fact, people have been praised by management on sirocco for reporting issues openly.


Yes, we have a worse service than before, but so does the entire Police service (and NHS, Teachers...)

Rather than pick on the bad points, let's embrace the good bits. those of us still working in the system still have some voice in where we go from here... maybe i'm a glass half full guy?

(insert outraged response towards woowooneenor here!!!!)

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

Clearly going from 33 bases down to 15 is going to be massively detrimental. Longer transit times / response times, less aircraft availability as they are all committed elsewhere, more strain to airframes, pilots, staff.

Borderless policing has definitely improved under NPAS. Never before have UK helicopters been so available to different forces, relatively promptly.

:confused: These two paragraphs seem totally contradictory.

But there is little point in having a helicopter declared available to other forces if it cannnot get there and efficiently and rapidly complete a task. Apart from it being a smoke and mirrors trick to please the bean counters, of course....

[jayteeto]

Romeopapa, I don't know you, but your attitude really really stinks.
So pilots are hired hands to taxi the TFOs around?? You must have great CRM on your base. I only did 6 years in Police Aviation, but we operated as a crew and had great success doing so. The nice Mr Hogan-Howe even gave me a couple of commendations for my contributions.
We were part of the team, think about that when you slag the drivers off. One part of being on that team was to have an input into making the service better, we were 'on the pulse' and could give valuable input. This of course could be rejected by senior officers, but I will tell you one thing........... They listened to what you had to say before making decisions, good or bad. You just dismiss comments as ex wallop nco whinging. My senior pilot was an ex wallop nco and he was one of the best people I have ever worked for. Quite simply, the unit would not have survived without him.
NPAS will work, because that is how things will be. It doesn't and shouldn't stop people talking about what could or should be done better. This is council taxpayers money, they deserve and expect to get value for money. You cannot live under the umberella of 'we know what you need, so shut up and let us do as we wish'. In the 21st century EVERYTHING is accountable and as public servants you should be open to audit by the public you serve.

[Woowooneenor]

if NPAS wasn't created, its likely that approx 10 bases would have shut anyway. That would have meant no air support at all available to those forces.

At least under NPAS, some form of air support is still available - albeit it slower to arrive than previously.

My point was that borderless policing now exists, where it didn't before. Previously, Surrey for example would ask for an aircraft and if it was busy or offline, then nothing was available. Now if that's the case, NPAS can utilise Bournemouth, Benson, Lippits, Boreham...

London used to only have their own aircraft, but now surrounding choppers are covering plenty of jobs - Some will say thats a bad thing, but that's subjective. The bottom line is, if there's a task that warrants a helicopter, there's more likelyhood of getting one with borderless policing.

[MaxR]

WWNN - You estimate that 10 bases would have closed if NPAS had not been created; so, how many will close under NPAS?

Could you explain why the counties without access to their own air support would not have been able to enter into agreements with neighbouring counties as had been the case for decades prior to NPAS? Borderless policing was not created in 2012.

On your point of cuts by this and the previous government, I think you'll find that was necessary due to profligate and negligent overspending by the Labour administrations that preceded them.

[Romeopapa]

Let's get a few facts clear here.

Using a helicopter to take part in a stolen car chase does not make sense.

If you look at all those Police Action programmes they have taken it to joke level with police officers given nicknames.

A stolen car is an insurance issue not a police game.

Give the force toys and they will use them while at the same time not recognising the cost.

Each hour in the air is a few old fashioned policemen on the beat for a month.

Sure a few people here have issues because police aviation is a nice cushy number.

They want to keep sitting in that easy chair.

But the truth is just like those freeview channels filling time is the reality of NPAS.

90% boredom.

The boss needs to give stern warnings to the drivers ASAP

[ShyTorque]

Let's get a few facts clear here.

From what you have written, your total experience of police aviation consists of watching TV programmes. Your subsequent supposition certainly doesn't count as "facts".

[Romeopapa]

There are issues best not discussed here.

I am not happy with some of the vitriol pumped out by a certain person at a personal level.(multi identity) It can be construed as cyber stalking which I am still considering filing a complaint.

Frankly I feel that NPAS employees should not be discussing their employer here. I am sure you are all aware of the rules.

I am not going to post anymore but am lodging a complaint to head of NPAS and senior police level in London.

Can I ask mods to close this thread?

[airpolice]

You can ask.


You can also just stop reading.

[Romeopapa]

Better still I ask head of a NPAS for his views and rules.:ok:

[airpolice]

Get a grip!

This is the Internet, it's for entertainment.

Work is what people get paid for, this is different.


You are of course allowed to take up your issues with which ever boss you think most suited. They don't need to take you seriously.

[G0ULI]

I started this thread as a catch all primarily to hold links that might be of interest to stories relating to NPAS and also to resolve a couple of unresolved questions left hanging from the demise of the last thread.

We now know that NPAS staff have been advised to restrict comments to official channels rather than contribute to PPRuNe, and quite rightly so.

The service is doing as well as can be expected with reduced resources. An official NPAS web page gives details of deployments and other activities that are deemed appropriate for publication.

Rather than using the thread to score personal points, perhaps posters would be kind enough to restrict entries to stories of interest relating to NPAS that may have been overlooked by the press or be of significant interest but not necessarily sanctioned by NPAS management.

Thank you.

[Nail The Dream]

You can also just stop reading. ... and Posting !

Then maybe we can get back to the matter at hand -
discussing "The Decline of NPAS". :cool:

Nail

[ShyTorque]

I am rather intrigued by someone stating their location as "Asia Pacific" having such a strong opinion on a discussion about the Police force in the UK.Not only that, but unjustly criticising those in the role with concerns based on actual first hand experience.

NPAS is a sound idea and imho should have been the way things were done at the beginning. But fewer airframes/units covering the same area can never provide the same service as before.

[The Famous Eccles]

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing when mixed with an active imagination. Lots of assuming in certain peoples posts just makes them look stupid and irrelevant even if they then make a valid point it will be dismissed as tripe due to previous bo££ox posted.

If the cap fits,etc etc etc

[Thomas coupling]

Romeo papa.
You are not, nor ever have been a police pilot. Worse still - much much worse - you are/have been a police pilot.
The bottom line is that your strategy saddens me. It is ALWAYS healthy to question everything going on around you, that is the beauty and pleasure of living in this democtratic world. For - without that we would not flourish.
NPAS need this sort of feedback to keep them on their toes. I know each of their SLT you do not and never have known them.

They do their best with what they have. They, too are reeling from the cut backs but the CS who runs them is dilligent and conscientious. What more can one ask of anyone. Stop crying wolf and man up. Enjoy the cut and thrust this thread provides.:=

[G0ULI]

Nice to see our money is being well spent.

Did aerial photo of Michael McIntyre break privacy rules? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33535578)

BBC story about celebrity photo being tweeted after apparently being taken from a police helicopter flying above London.

[Nail The Dream]

"Whilst on tasking in central London this morning we spotted
a certain energetic funny man... Can you guess who?..."

It does beg the question - What was the "Tasking" they were on ?

Maybe they'd had reports of Celebrities being harassed / stalked in that area,
in which case monitoring the goings on might have been justified :cool:
but by posting the Photo on Twatter with those comments,
they don't seem to have done themselves any favours :rolleyes:

Nail

[Rotate too late]

Chaps, can I ask, regarding NPAS recruitment that I'm told is underway, how many pilots are you looking for? I think I've missed the boat this time but is it fair to say that it will remain an ongoing opportunity from now on or will it close and reopen as required?
RTL

[Sloppy Link]

GOULI - "I started this thread as a catch all primarily to hold links that might be of interest to stories relating to NPAS and also to resolve a couple of unresolved questions left hanging from the demise of the last thread".


No you didn't. You started this thread to knock NPAS. As the OP, the title shows where you are coming from and it encourages others of your ilk.

[G0ULI]

Sloppy Link
I am supportive of police aviation but am deeply unhappy at the way it appears to have been emasculated in some respects by the advent of NPAS. I accept that budget cuts necessitated streamlining and amalgamating the independent services operating around the country. That doesn't mean I agree with what has been done, hence the title. It is early days yet and it is going to take time before a new thread can be started called 'NPAS - The Resurgence'.

Perhaps the future will lead to a unified emergency air service capable of dealing with policing, search and rescue, medical services, border enforcement and any other matters where aircraft are the most efficient means of dealing with a given situation. We used to be able to rely on the military for a lot of that stuff, but they too have been hung out to dry in the interest of balancing the books.

[Nail The Dream]

Its alright Supt Watson having the tweet deleted.....

Will he also now be cancelling the NPAS Photo competition ? :rolleyes:

Nail

[yme]

The NPAS model would work well if it didn't actually have crews or aircraft, just HR, quality control a dispatch centre and the SMT.

[MightyGem]

I hear that two Chief Cons were flown down to London last week at very short notice. :E

Was that by an NPAS aircraft?

[Nail The Dream]

two Chief Cons were flown down to London last week

I wonder if they were going down to judge the Photo Competition ? ;)

Or maybe to discuss the latest Base closures :eek:

On 3rd June NPAS "God" A/Supt. Watson Tweeted :

"Look out for the NPAS photo competition on Twitter #NPASphotos.
Follow NPAS bases closing date 30/06/15"

Does that mean the Photo Competition closed on 30th June,
or that there were even more Bases closing on that date :\ ! ?

It's easy to make ambiguous posts on Twatter
when there are only 140 characters available for each post :oh:

Nail

[MightyGem]

I onder if they were going down to judge the Photo Competition ?
Nothing as frivolous as that. :)

[yme]

Radio 4 Investigating shift workers. What is better for your health 12 HR shifts, 4 days 4 off, 4 nights 3 off or 2 days 2 lates 3 off?

[Brilliant Stuff]

yme

4 4 4 3 if you wish to live a long prosperous life..

[Woowooneenor]

i did 2 days 2 nights 4 off for several years. Looks like NPAS are likely to adopt the same pattern. I look forward to it. Best shift pattern i ever worked

[J.A.F.O.]

yme - Interesting programme, for every 10 years you do on nights the brain ages by an additional 6 1/2 years. I did 15 years on nights so that means my brain is nearly as old as you. ;-)

[griffothefog]

Now the govermint have removed the balls, can we finally have a winch fitted to all para public choppers?:E

[yme]

J.A.F.O.
True, but not as wise.😊

[4468]

A very infrequent visitor here, but someone has caught my eye.

Someone with 71 posts, in less than a year, the vast majority of which simply slag off police aviation. Who claims to have 35 years experience on Robinsons (all paid for himself?) and perhaps B206. Who explains his relevant knowledge:
My experience dates back to the days when freelance contract air support was bought in from the likes of Veritair back in the 1980's.

One pilot,Julian Verity,in a Jetranger plus a copper with a map alongside covering half of Wales

Probably turned down by the military, and or turned down by police aviation for lack of suitability?

Take a long hard look at yourself Romeopapa, and ask yourself why you have so much to say on this subject? Wannabe? Never quite was? Apparently not a UK taxpayer.

Though he seems to spend some time reading my home newspaper, I'll prefer the views of those who have both seen and done the job, with whom I share some similar experience.

[J.A.F.O.]

yme - Couldn't disagree. :}

[Letsby Avenue]

I was briefed that the P68R was not cleared for icing conditions but it was hoped it would be in the future, main problm seemed to be power... anti icing on, role equipment off...:(

It did look very nice going circling my house the other day though...

[yme]

Overheard the other day, the NPAS helicopter has departed the field for good, is that the case?
Bit early?

[Fortyodd2]

YME,
Yes and yes. :(

[yme]

Forty,
A little unexpected or been on the cards for a while?
:(

[Fortyodd2]

YME,
Wasn't supposed to be until 1st Jan according to the plan.......
...........but no plan survives first contact. :sad:

[MightyGem]

Perhaps they decided to call it a day early, rather than prolong the agony. :(

[MightyGem]

Cumbria Police to use UAVs:
HeliHub UK ? Cumbria Police to use UAVs (http://helihub.com/2015/09/16/uk-cumbria-police-to-use-uavs/)

Good enough reason, I suppose:
Previously the only way officers in Cumbria could gain aerial assistance was to call out a police helicopter from the National Police Air Service. This would not only be a costly resource for the force but it can also be time-consuming.

[ShyTorque]

They need names for two drones?

How about:

"Silkpurse" and "Sowsear" ?

:rolleyes:

[Thomas coupling]

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/568036-npas.html#post9125148

[Bladecrack]

“We have been successful in securing Home Office capital funding to make NPAS a 24/7 all weather capable fleet and this is a real step change for NPAS. This is an investment in the future of policing across England and Wales.

“While helicopters are very flexible there are conditions which they are sometimes unable to fly, such as heavy fog, if visibility is too badly affected.


Does anyone know what the min RVR a Vulcanair P68R can take off or land in?

BC

[MightyGem]

Never thought fog was particularly heavy, thick perhaps(like some at NPAS it seems), but not heavy.:hmm:

[Bladecrack]

Never thought fog was particularly heavy, thick perhaps(like some at NPAS it seems), but not heavy

:D :rolleyes:

[SilsoeSid]

Never thought fog was particularly heavy,

Ever tried lifting it?
:ok:

[Bladecrack]

TC,

NPAS 47 will still be based in S. Wales.

Police air support in the UK is set to become 24/7 all weather capable for the first time with the introduction of fixed wing aircraft into the service’s fleet.

The National Police Air Service has now awarded a contract for four fixed wing aircraft to be based in a purpose built facility, serving the whole of England and Wales.

The four Vulcanair P.68R airframes will have a 24/7 all-weather flight capability following significant upgrades to the airframe.


It seems very clear from the press release above that the FW aircraft will be all weather 24/7. Should it turn out not to be the case then surely the West Yorkshire P&CC and NPAS Accountable Officer will need to explain to the public why their money has been wasted?

BC

[MightyGem]

Ever tried lifting it?
No, but I've blown it away without much trouble. :)

NONE for the whole of Wales?
The Hawarden aircraft will cover Wales. Well the northern part at least, backed up by the one at Barton. If it can get a refuel somewhere. :hmm:

[G0ULI]

Nowt wrong with a seagull with a Go Pro strapped to its' leg. All weather capability and no one is too upset if it crashes.

[PANews]

Will the PCC still be in power by end of the contract?

There is a story on the web this morning suggesting that he will be bidding for PCC next time around...

Whether he has the right to say 'no deal' is probably the question though. It seems that all parties have to toe the line on police aviation and go NPAS.

[MightyGem]

Mr Grove is now the only police and crime commissioner in the country to have not signed his force's helicopter over to the national service.
Good for him. :ok:

[G0ULI]

I love the last paragraph that states that NPAS has no legal identity and that all assets are owned and controlled by West Yorkshire. Now that is interesting...

[PANews]

I seem to recall its not due until after the birthdate of NPAS.... so October.

I am sure it was October last year so I think we might expect it to be next week to coincide with the NPAS launch of the revamped EC135T2 G-SURY/G-POLB at Helitech.

Giving everyone added value at the show.

Who knows it may be the only added value on offer if the Helitech thread is to be believed.

[MightyGem]

Interesting. Last year's report included the Revenue and Capital contributions from each Force. This year's doesn't.

[RichiePAO]

This years report is significantly different in structure than last years, and thinner, a lot less detail. You can't really compare year on year performance if this report writing strategy continues.....also what is interesting is the absence of good work done at the coal face.....
As the overall budget reduces is the management proportion also going to reduce or are we going to have police aviation like the navy, more admirals than ships.....
Meanwhile Forces are procuring UAS's and are generally dissatisfied with the level of service vs investment......
I think NPAS will soon be put out to tender.....maybe tagged onto the SAR contract.

[SilsoeSid]

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/7D5EBDFA-2FF1-4742-999C-D02D84B4DA73_zpsjptgghs8.jpg

[airpolice]

Mighty Gem wrote:

Interesting. Last year's report included the Revenue and Capital contributions from each Force. This year's doesn't.

That'll no doubt be a result of the information being used on here.

[MightyGem]

Asking the Forces that had joined NPAS for the FY 2013/14, FOI requests have given me the following information:

Total paid for Air Support said Forces for the full FY prior to them joining NPAS: £36,087,787
Total Revenue Contributions for FY 2013/14: £27,778,351
Total Revenue Contributions for FY 2014/15: £32,657,594

On top of that are various Capital Payments, in addition to the Revenue Payments, which for 2013/14 were some £9,000,000. These are deducted from Forces annual Home Office grant.

I asked the same Forces how much the were paying for the current FY. Eight Forces failed to reply or didn't know, but of those who did reply, the vast majority said that they were paying the same as last year.

So, not sure where all these savings are occurring, but it doesn't seem to be at individual Force level.

It will be interesting to see what they pay next year when there are on 15 aircraft left.

[airpolice]

Dave, you really do have too much time on yer hands.

[huntnhound]

It seems to me that decades of hard work by hundreds of dedicated Police aviation personal has been or is being kicked into touch by the pathetic bean counters that the majority of those personal probably elected into office for a second term.
It's all very sad.

[MightyGem]

I'm sure there's more than one. Just quoting the figures they sent me.

[zorab64]

Gouli's seagull idea seems to have taken wing! :ok:
https://youtu.be/UYHjyNNy_4Y

UYHjyNNy_4Y

[G0ULI]

Proof positive that the average seagull has more initiative than a government minister.

Okay so the test flight could have been a bit better organised, but as a proof of concept, brilliant!

[airpolice]

From the NPAS Website:

NPAS Newcastle @NPAS_Newcastle
@tynemouthRNLI We have a lot in common, apart from the mode of transport. Look forward to seeing you's at our base.


"You's" FFS!

[MightyGem]

Chatting to folks around the bazaars occasionally brings up the odd nugget of information.

I gather there was meeting in Wakefield today of BMs, "Senior Pilots"(yes I know Senior Pilots have gone, in title that is, but each unit still needs/has that senior aviator type person for that expert aviation knowledge. I also know that many pilots are strongly resisting this effort to get them to do what the old SPs were doing), plus various desk jockeys.

I also gather that it was due to start at 9am meaning that many had to stay overnight in a hotel, exacerbating the current problem of undermanning because of an overtime ban(leading to single crewing) and a general lack of pilots. Not to mention the hotel expenses in this era of cost cutting. :=

A later start time could have perhaps reduced of prevented this?

With the current reduction from a 25 a/c service to a 15 a/c one, it looks like a 10 ac model, at the moment, looking at the numbers of available ac due to this no overtime, lack of engineering cover and shortage of NPAS employed pilots to cover duties. :ugh:

[RotaryWingB2]

MG. there's no lack of engineering cover, more like a lack of will to pay OT when an aircraft goes offline.

The maintenance providers are giving NPAS exactly what they are asking for.

[Thomas coupling]

MG: Be careful out there in retirement - you are slowly turning gamekeeper into poacher :=

[MightyGem]

more like a lack of will to pay OT when an aircraft goes offline
Sorry, that's what I meant.

[tigerfish]

Ive been offline for about 18 months, fighting another quarter but on checking with Pprune it seems that the promised disaster that was NPAS really did take its awful toll.
The Service that by 2006 led the world in effective Police Aviation is, ten years later, all but dead. - Due to the ministrations of NPAS . OD who was seen as someone who might possibly save it, - didn't!

There are some very guilty people out there.

Sad - Very sad. So now I will get down to reading it all up again. Someone needs to document this farce!

tigerfish ( The old b****rs not dead yet )

[SilsoeSid]

Well, when I say 'saved'...


Pembrey's police helicopter base saved "for now" | Llanelli Star (http://www.llanellistar.co.uk/Pembrey-s-police-helicopter-base-saved/story-28154089-detail/story.html)

PEMBREY'S police helicopter base has been saved from closure for the "foreseeable future".

It means as part of the National Police Air Service (NPAS) it will remain as an NPAS forward operating base for the time being to support operations.

Among its roles will be to act as a refuelling point and the deal means there will be a 24 hour helicopter service as opposed to the current 12 hours.


Dyfed-Powys Police and Crime Commissioner, Christopher Salmon said: "I'm pleased we've been able to secure this deal for the people of Dyfed-Powys.




"Any other problem I can reassure you about?"

oLdk2C25Z14

[MaxR]

Sid, so the good news is that there is still going to be a helicopter base at Pembrey. That sounds fantastic.

Am I right in my interpretation of the story in saying that there won't be what you might call an actual helicopter based there?

[efish]

Great bit of PR for NPAS on "Cuffs" tonight! Somebody has done their research!!

[SilsoeSid]

Efish, you are a wag :=

All in the first 5 mins;

BBC iPlayer - Cuffs - Episode 3 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06pjg1x/cuffs-episode-3)

[G0ULI]

Well they got the bit right about senior officers lacking the bottle to actually deal with crime anymore. That's what comes of putting civilian crime commisioners in charge. The looney lefties are now running the asylum.

[MaxR]

It's a shame the Cuffs prison break wasn't near Pembrey, they've still got a ... oh, no, wait, sorry, I got confused between helicopter base and helicopter - it's easy to do.

[SilsoeSid]

Who is this guy?

U3ORoCJgxJc

[efish]

To be fair, I don't think NPAS would have been able to attend the Cuffs prison break as it did look pretty foggy to me. It's a shame the fixed wing are not on line yet, it might have been a different story.

[SilsoeSid]

:suspect:I did like the way that the motorcyclist took along a spare helmet and the crim took time to pause and put it on before mounting the bike; and isn't it a bit of a wonder why he wasn't wearing cuffs, especially considering that's the title of the programme :ugh:

Anyway lets not forget this is only television, and despite it being in colour, isn't real life ……. much like Northiam Road and Dalton Hill don't happen to be between Hastings and Ashford :\

https://susanaellisauthor.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/sussex_police_authority_map.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/NPAS%2020%20Minute%20Circles%202016%20%20with%20fied%20wing_ zpsmntuvrjr.png

Being set up by someone in Sussex?

[RichiePAO]

20 min eta!? More like 40 mins now..........so much for 20 min rings......

[Fortyodd2]

Hmmm,
Time for a new map Sid, there's one of the blue circles and the pink circle in the wrong place.

[PANews]

I guess that the pink ring apparently centred on 'Downtown Leicester' is representing the fixed wing dream...... 2017 dreams anyway..... that needs to track NE somewhat .... not sure about the blue error though unless its that London appears to be centred on Elstree...... not a very popular idea with the local residents I understand..... so Lippitts reigns still.

[Fortyodd2]

PAN,
Do try and keep up - there's a blue circle and the big pink one centred on East Midlands Airport.....................:oh:

[MightyGem]

Great bit of PR for NPAS on "Cuffs" tonight! Somebody has done their research!!
Just watched it. It raised a smile. :E

Why does Humberside not show on the map? Pretty sure the 902 was there when I drove past a few weeks ago.

[Fortyodd2]

MG,
Humberside haven't joined the party yet.

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

the big pink one centred on East Midlands Airport.....................

So, they must have stealth aircraft based at EMA...

[SilsoeSid]

Latest update on base locations, from the horses mouth, as at now :hmm:;

NPAS Bases Interactive Map | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/bases/interactive-map)

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/Screen%20Shot%202015-11-15%20at%2000.28.05_zpsn9zeqdk1.png

[Fortyodd2]

Hmmmm indeed Sid :hmm:

[Sloppy Link]

Hmnn..St Athan?

[jayteeto]

When does Warton close?

[SilsoeSid]

Latest updates and news can be found here;

News | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/news)

Latest in ref to bases;

The National Police Air Service has confirmed plans to move to a 15-base model | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/news/national-police-air-service-has-confirmed-plans-move-15-base-model)

The 15 bases are as follows,

Newcastle
Wakefield
Barton
Hawarden
East Midlands Airport (2 bases - one for fixed wing aircraft, one for rotary aircraft) - (subject to contract negotiations)
Birmingham
Boreham
Elstree (subject to contract negotiations)
Benson
Filton
St Athan
Redhill
Bournemouth
Exeter

The following bases will be closed in the financial year 2015/2016

Rhuddlan - closes 15 September 2015
Halfpenny Green - closes 1 January 2016
Pembrey - closes 1 January 2016
Ripley - closes 31 January 2016
Sheffield - closes 1 February 2016

The following bases will close in the financial year 2016/2017

Durham Tees Valley
Warton
Wattisham
Husbands Bosworth
Lippitts Hill (subject to contract negotiations)

The 15 bases will be divided into four different regions

[MightyGem]

Humberside haven't joined the party yet.
Thanks for that. I did wonder.

So, as Humberside isn't mentioned at all in the stay open/close list, will it go to 16 bases if/when they join, or will they close immediately on joining?

If they know that they close straight away, then why would they want to join?

[PANews]

I thought I was supposed to be behind the curve.....FortyOdd .... and I thought that I was over the hill at SixtyOdd.....

So which 'Silly Billy' still thinks that East Midlands Airport is still going to be any sort of base! That 'Not here mate' is as old as the hills..... I read it somewhere.....

Three word location of which only one is pertinent..... the last one. Airport.

Thats why I queried the big circle on Leicester and suggested which way you should shove it! [Subject to contract].

What seems to be coming out of the plans for NPAS is plain simple human intransigence. Crews not wanting to be messed about and walking off into the sunset [or back on the beat] and at least two cases of locals not wanting to be woken at 3am by some police aircraft waking them up. East Midlands said no and [if my source is correct] so did the locals of Elstree. The human factor is clearly modifying the organisation for all the wrong reasons.

I guess we can only assume that a base is closed AFTER it is closed and the aircraft has gone because even the death of Dyfed-Powys seems to have a strange afterlife assigned to it as the unit will still be available for refuelling beyond closure..... A refuelling stop on the way to where I wonder?

Maybe they just have a supply of Avgas in the tanks there they simply could not sell on?

Still no signs that Humberside will similarly linger..... it seems all the left over bills are being left to Humberside Police to cough up and there is no residual value to put into the NPAS coffers! Quite the contrary.

[MightyGem]

Just tried to get the number of shifts that crews were down to a single TFO, or grounded due to a lack of a pilot, over the last twelve months, via FOI to West Yorks.

Too difficult, came the reply. They'd have to ask each Base for their figures and that would exceed the 20 hours work for a FOI question.

I was very surprised that this info is not collated by NPAS direct from their daily reports from Bases. :rolleyes:

[G0ULI]

MightyGem
Or this information is not to be made public. Some analyst will have a file with "unofficial" stats stashed away for when and if the boss ever needs to know the real situation. By not keeping official figures, you have plausible deniability when the brown stuff hits the fan.

A phone call to each base to email their duty sheets for the last twelve months would take an hour or two. Wait for the files to be sent - they will all be on computer, but it might take a day or two to receive them all. Convert the files so they are compatible with each other and stick them all in a spreadsheet, perhaps four to eight hours work depending on how polished you want the final report to look.

So a days work for one person, although it will probably take three days or more to actually collect all the data. So technically, yes, it will take more than 20 hours in total from initiating the request. You could also add in the time spent by every person involved at any stage of processing this request. It is amazing how the hours build up. Police officers are experts at stretching hours when there's overtime to be had. :)

Easy to hide from FOI requests when you know how. :ugh:

[500e]

Try one base or region at a time :E

[MightyGem]

A phone call to each base to email their duty sheets for the last twelve months would take an hour or two
From experience, it's not that simple. There are no "duty sheets". Duties are entered on a computer program, which doesn't have a search function for that particular data set. :hmm:

[G0ULI]

That is what SQL is for, custom database queries. Seems like all the old database experts have been thrown out with the bathwater then. Would have taken me 10-15 minutes to knock up something that worked way back when.

[Sloppy Link]

Do you have any idea what you are trying to prove by this constant sniping, undermining and toxicity that you peddle on this forum, using you supposed position of knowledge borne from experience? If you have an end goal that is achievable, realistic and an improvement on the current situation within the budgetary restraints as dictated by the Government that was democratically elected then please let us all know so that we may be able to help but for the moment I shall steal a quote from another.....(I know my literary limitations)

Betrayal is common for men with no conscience.

All I see at the moment is NPAS = Red Mist

SL

[MightyGem]

Just trying ascertain the truth about stories I've heard about manning levels. :rolleyes:

[airpolice]

MightyGem

From experience, it's not that simple. There are no "duty sheets". Duties are entered on a computer program, which doesn't have a search function for that particular data set.

I'm sure there was a FlightLog system in use some years ago that collated such stats. Whatever happened to that fat bloke?

[ShyTorque]

It would be interesting to know how much flight time is spent in transit compared to how much actually spent at the required task location.

Another, in view of the longer transits due to the reduced number of aircraft, would be what percentage of tasks are cancelled/incident deemed over before the aircraft arrives on scene.

[MightyGem]

I'm sure there was a FlightLog system in use some years ago that collated such stats.
That went the way of the Dodo years ago. :p

Whatever happened to that fat bloke?
Fell off his motorbike I heard. :)

[MightyGem]

how much flight time is spent in transit
Hours
how much actually spent at the required task location.

Minutes.

:E:E:E

[SilsoeSid]

I hear that here is an in house Christmas Jingle competition going on.
Although the photo competition didn't come to much in the end, as far as prizes or even results went, it's not about the winning, it's about bringing a little Christmas cheer to those that might need it; so here's my little contribution to the festive season;

To the tune of Cliff Richards', 'Mistletoe and Wine'.

BjmGbI-Mnys


Pilots Have a Whine
by Sillysod Sid

The phone will ring, the crims all want bling,
The old has passed, there's a new beginning,
Dreams of past jobs, ones that didn't blow,
Another misper, come on let's go.

Christmas time, pilots have a whine,
Ops room singing their little rhyme,
With logs backing up and few aircraft free,
A time to reject the bad jobs we see.

A time for living, a time for believing,
A time for trusting, not deceiving,
Love and laughter and joy ever after,
Ours for the taking, just follow the master.

Christmas time, pilots have a whine,
It's all ok, just stay online,
With engineering cover and moments of glee,
Just don't go and rustle the Wakefield tree.

Silent night, holy night

It's a time for brewing, a time for flying,
A time for crewing and patience trying.
NPAS is love, NPAS is peace,
Let's have a laugh, but no not you please.

Christmas time, pilots have a whine,
Days and nights riddled with crime,
With crashes on the highway and bodies in the tree,
A time to realise what the other staff may see.

Christmas time, pilots have a whine,
Take a little break, don't rush all the time,
With logs on the fire and gifts on the tree,
If not a brew, take time for a wee.

Christmas time, pilots have a whine,
Just a whine, you know you can't have wine,
With logs on the fire and gifts on the tree,
Just wait until you visit, you'll meet Dorothy.

Christmas time, silent night
Pilots have a whine, holy night
Ops room singing their little rhyme,
With logs on the fire and gifts on the tree,
Just wait until you visit, you'll leave with a flea.

[SilsoeSid]

Sid Silsoe, Mr, old as my nose and a little bit older than my teeth, I cannot answer that question.
:oh:

[SilsoeSid]

Cleveland Police helicopter base will NOT close next year - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/cleveland-police-helicopter-base-not-10581220)

Cleveland’s police helicopter base will NOT close in 2016.

The planned closure of the police air support base at Tees Valley Airport has been delayed until April 2017, following an intervention by the Police and Crime Commissioner for Cleveland Barry Coppinger.

News | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/news)

[MightyGem]

Just spent a pleasant night out various lads and lasses of Air Support. The evening was slightly marred by the story of the continuing decline of Air Support.

902s offline more than on, manning levels leading to single crewing, a new ops/dispatch centre costing ££££s so that the boss doesn't have to drive 40 odd miles to visit it and ops staff who after nearly 3 years still can't give to the basic info of what the job is, where it is and who to talk to. Also talk of 10/8 base models for the future. :(

[efish]

More great PR for NPAS last on "Cuffs" last night!😳.

[SilsoeSid]

Don't watch it myself elfish, but;

BBC iPlayer - Cuffs - Episode 7 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06s2j8y/cuffs-episode-7)

As before, all within the first five minutes :sad:

[Rotate too late]

Blatant agenda anyone? I hope the message gets across if so!

[SilsoeSid]

Blatant agenda anyone? I hope the message gets across if so!

The transcripts are online, and it would appear that the agenda isn't solely aimed at NPAS;

Episode 7 - Cuffs Transcript (http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=482&t=24214)

Mind you, I'm sure your PR department would manage to put a positive spin on that?
Right, where were we?
As I was saying, sir, obviously we're very restricted in what we can release before any potential court case.
However, the Chief Constable's very keen to issue a press release publicising the successful arrest of such a wanted gang…
We were lucky, rather than successful.
I'm sorry?
We were lucky that a single, resourceful police officer managed to throw her phone onto the back of a pick-up truck.
We were LUCKY that the gunman decided not to pull the trigger.
Otherwise, that would be a very different press release, wouldn't it?
One publicising the death of three police officers.
Sir, if we could just address the Chief's questions... I'd like to address some questions of my own.
Why were the other units so far away?
Why are front-line police officers so thinly stretched?
Why are there never enough helicopters in the sky?
You know... I don't think I'm going to be able to help you with your good-news story, but I'll be certain to forward you a copy of the complaint about the lack of tactical resources that I WILL be sending to the Chief Constable.
OK? Thank you.

[MightyGem]

Job going in London:
https://atsv7.wcn.co.uk/search_engine/jobs.cgi?SID=amNvZGU9MTUzMjA3OSZ2dF90ZW1wbGF0ZT02NTcmb3duZXI 9NTAyNzQwOSZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZicmFuZF9pZD0wJnJlcXNpZz0xNDU xNjgyNzU1LTcxMDkxZDU0MjUyYmY3ZTFjYzljODRhMWNmMDU0YjM4ZGJkZmY 4MmU=

I see they are now requiring Instrument Ratings in preparation for the CAA requirement to have one in the near future. End of the easy route for ex mil guys. :(

[craphat]

Does it also mean existing pilots will be 'given' IR's?
Be handy for those looking to move on in the future.........

[MightyGem]

Does it also mean existing pilots will be 'given' IR's
No,it won't. As I understand it the requirement for pilots to hold IRs comes in about 2020(?). A large number of the current pilots are due to retire by then, or shortly after. Those that are due to retire shortly after will be given grandfather rites to allow them to continue to retirement. There will be a small number of the current pilots who will be required to obtain an IR, which NPAS will foot the bill.

All newly recruited pilots will require an IR.

That's my understanding, anyway.

[JulieAndrews]

So who has got the contract to dispose of them?

[PANews]

I see that the pilot is for Lippitts Hill [as well as other SE locations] where there has been a long standing expectation of an IR for the 145 pilots.

Mind you I am a little worried that the existing pilots are being allowed 'Grandfather Rites' that seems a little too short term than the longevity assumed by ordinary Grandfather Rights!!!! ;)

[MightyGem]

'Grandfather Rites'
Oops. :O

I see that the pilot is for Lippitts Hill [as well as other SE locations]
I gather there's quite a shortage of pilots in the SE. I gather one pilot was given a £17,000 relocation package to move from the Midlands to Bristol.

I wonder what package may be offered to existing pilots to move to the SE; if they can't recruit internally, will they select people just to fill spaces and not necessarily who would in the past have been the 'best' person for the job; is there a weighting allowance in the shadows somewhere out of the public eye?

I see that NPAS has entered the "Comp A" business, flying a family from ooop north to darn sarff to visit a relative after an accident. Good PR, but hardly within the remit of Air Support.

[PANews]

Maybe your Rites slip of the typing was not far off the mark if you go by the Daily Star reporting of the recent UAV training in D&C and Avon.

The Daily Star headline today is Police set to smash crime rates – by using DRONES. Now that is raising expectations through the roof and clearly showing those last rites for helicopter pilots everywhere!!!!

Still it was the only instance of the headline getting out of control at an event that was pretty well reported..... but was it a cop that said it [for his iffy business case] or a reporter that dreamed it?

The other question is how much is the infrastructure for five UAV across Cornwall going to cost? Can't they just issue longer 'Selfie Sticks' to units?

[MightyGem]

I gather that the hot topic at the next NPAS Board Meeting will be a new fixed wing contract, as the current one seems to have fallen through. :=

Or maybe they'll just kick it into touch.

[MAN777]

Bring back G-GMPB !!!😉

[wigglyamp]

What - no P68s after all?

[MightyGem]

Are shifts still being lost due to a lack of crews? Well, there doesn't appear to be a personnel shortage according to NPAS:

Given the current operational bases, how many Pilots and TFOs would be needed to give each base their full complement?
Answer: Pilots, 84. TFOs, 165.

How many Pilots and TFOs do NPAS currently employ?
Answer: Pilots 94. TFOs, 180.

[airpolice]

Ah but, yes but, no but, well, y'see, erm. It's not that simple.

[SilsoeSid]

Anyone else watch the new series of 'X Files' last night?
It wasn't until I re-watched it this morning that I noticed …

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/Xfile_zpsprdezwrv.png

[chopper2004]

I did :) Though I doubt that the H130 that picked up Mulder was a 'black helicopter' :mad::mad::cool::cool: lol

cheers

[SilsoeSid]

The truth may well be out there, but always remember;

'Trust No-one';

https://45.media.tumblr.com/307c4587d723cf1a984be9a0b18f0d38/tumblr_ntm3nuzIvh1ueff7ho1_500.gif

[SilsoeSid]

Mmm, are we being deceived here? Smoke and mirrors?
I would like to see the complete backflip please :ok:

NKf9mlYfVms


.... then maybe we won't mention the dancing around a hangar with the Helilift so close and those open razor sharp clamps looking so menacing.

[SilsoeSid]

Fohnwind;What a fantastic use of taxpayers money.


Love to see your invoice for that one Fohnwind.

[ShyTorque]

Looks to me like a case of one step forward, two steps back... very appropriate.

[SilsoeSid]

Fohn'y, links to explanations of what your personal tax & NI contributions and P60 are isn't really an invoice.

What contribution do you think the tax payer made during the production of that video?

[Rotate too late]

your thoughts on this FW.

https://youtu.be/2I-AcSioLXU

[the_flying_cop]

What a fantastic use of taxpayers money.
Fohnwind, don't be that guy.

[SilsoeSid]

Fohn'y;No, it's not an invoice, but it's an indication of what tax we all pay to the government for public services, (which includes NPAS).

I would imagine the time spent running around making/editing videos could be more constructively used. These are government paid staff.


I'd wager that not a single penny of public money was spent making that video.


Anything to say about the recent improvements to the accommodation for other government paid staff? Do you think their time might be more constructively used, rather than utilising those beds?

Stoke Newington Fire Station Case Study (http://www.gpcontracts.uk.com/StokeNewington.htm)
Soho Fire Station Case Study (http://www.gpcontracts.uk.com/Soho.htm)

http://www.gpcontracts.uk.com/images/Soho_5.jpg


Or maybe direct your grievance elsewhere;

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/28/article-2019458-0D314F1200000578-381_233x536.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

Of course we all know where the Members & Lords are at this very moment;

MPs freeze beer prices in Parliament AGAIN despite £7m a year taxpayer subsidy (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2677765/Booze-prices-frozen-Parliament-AGAIN-MPs-food-drink-prices-despite-7m-year-taxpayer-subsidy.html)

Taxpayers are forced to stump up £7million a year to keep restaurant and bar bills down in Parliament.

[chopper2004]

Please gentlemen and ladies :) they do a good job lol. Though with ref to

NPAS did a very very nice job a month back :) with the Met's former pair came into my neck of the woods for a very special escort. I hasten to say they did same tactical approach as in the movie below @1:52:38 into the base :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8FSIhRxFbM

Though tech question - how come we dont employ / practice rappelling of Armed Response teams like the Europeans and States?

And here are my photos (which you have seen on another thread) of NPAS finest doing what they do best....

cheers


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger072/IMG_3031_zpsstxxfedl.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger073/IMG_3077_zpseualb8ic.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger073/IMG_3140_zpshtkfckqa.jpg

[MightyGem]

And we don't rappel. We Fast Rope or Abseil. :E

[Coconutty]

Re the "Afgham Style" video, there is an obvious waste of Taxpayers money there too.

Why equip someone with Camo shorts AND a High Viz Tabbard :confused:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconut1.jpg

[MightyGem]

Deleted at the CI's request.

[SilsoeSid]

So there's some bobbies up at Appleby Horse Fair, keeping obs on some dodgy travellers(no, really?). They ask for Air Support. Helo turns up, "Can we have downlink please?" "No, you haven't paid for it

Don't know where you got that from MG, but it smells of absolute BS.

[airpolice]

Sounds likely. Everything needs to be paid for.

[MightyGem]

Don't know where you got that from MG, but it smells of absolute BS.
From the horse's mouth. So to speak.

[SilsoeSid]

I'm really surprised you've believed this downlink story.
Perhaps you can ask the 'horse' who it actually was that said no. Was it the TFO or control room dispatcher or the control room supervisor? A date would be handy and whoever the horse is would easily be able to tell you that.

I would be more than happy to get the truth out of this as despite what anyone might think of NPAS, those of us at the coal face are still driven to provide an effective service to the officers on the ground. After all, let no one forget that TFO's were once those officers on the ground and maybe one day will be again. Making up stories is well out of order.


Right then; why did they reply to the request or does the 'airwave package' come as standard :suspect:

I wonder if along with the 'downlink package' & 'airwave package' there is also a 'camera package', 'Thermal package', 'Mapping package', 'nitesun package', 'sky shout package', 'casevac package' etc. :rolleyes:

Maybe when it comes to the beginning of the financial year, each force has to decide between the SE, HSE, or Sport variant of their agreement. Perhaps in future they could even ask for the ac to be adblue'd to keep the costs down further :ugh:


You must have heard that the truth is stranger than fiction, there is no need for the fiction :ooh:

[airpolice]

I wonder if along with the 'downlink package' & 'airwave package' there is also a 'camera package', 'Thermal package', 'Mapping package', 'nitesun package', 'sky shout package', 'casevac package' etc

Sid, is there not an additional cost to pay for the downlink? The other items you mention are fixed costs, unless you want to consider the marginal additional fuel burn to run the Nitesun.

The extra data, lots of it, is charged by the network operator when images are sent over Airwave. Is the downlink data free for everyone?

[SilsoeSid]

airpolice;

Sid, is there not an additional cost to pay for the downlink? The other items you mention are fixed costs, unless you want to consider the marginal additional fuel burn to run the Nitesun.

The extra data, lots of it, is charged by the network operator when images are sent over Airwave. Is the downlink data free for everyone?

That's how it works is it!

:hmm:

Enterprise Control Systems, ECS UK (http://www.enterprisecontrol.co.uk/index.php url=featured_details&news_id=197)

2014-11-23 - The Benefits of a Sovereign Data Network

Introduction
A comparison is made of the use of the relative merits of using a dedicated COFDM data network such as that available from ECS versus the use of 3G or 4G from a Mobile telephone network.

At first sight the use of 3G/4G from a mobile service provider has the following advantages:-

• Coverage Area. COFDM has a finite range capability, defined by the frequency of the equipment, data-rate, antenna types and, dependent on radio line of sight. Use of the Mobile Telephone Network is only limited by areas of coverage of the mobile network.
• Initial Price. COFDM has a much higher initial equipment price then a system using the Mobile Telephone Network
• Frequency Allocation. COFDM requires its own dedicated band plan

However the advantages of COFDM include:-

• Infrastructure Independence. COFDM is infrastructure independent. Video footage via the Mobile Telephone Network is reliant on 3rd party infrastructure
• Security. Mobile technology is connected to Internet Protocol networks; as such, any encryptionhosted on mobile-connected equipment is subject to hacking threats.
• Denial of Service. Denial of Service attacks of the mobile network .
• Ongoing Costs. COFDM is free to transmit. Mobile Network Providers will charge for data usage.
(e.g. A single SD picture at 5.5 Mbps is 2.5GB/hr)
• Image Quality. The data-rate of 3G and 4G can never be guaranteed; data-rate reduces with cell phone velocity and the number of cell phones in the local vicinity. Loop testing and variable compression techniques are used to determine maximum data-rate. In high mobile phone usage areas, the data-rate may reduce below that considered acceptable for surveillance imagery. In extreme cases, the mobile network may crash. Surveillance operations are normally required in areas of high mobile phone usage.
COFDM is fixed data-rate and fixed image quality without this limitation
• Deployment. 3G does not provide sufficient data-rate at helicopter operational speeds to support video, so this capability is limited to 4G coverage areas
• Consistency of Performance. Performance of a video over 3G/4G system is dependent upon data-rate available. Data-rate is affected by the number of other phone uses in the vicinity. The use of the network can never be known. As such, performance of a video over 3G/4G solution is not consistent.
Operational performance cannot be predicted reliably. COFDM has defined range with consistent performance
• Certification. No EASA/FAA approved equipment exists for transmitting imagery via the mobile telephone network
• Regulation. ETSI legally restricts the usage of SIM cards to ground level. This is mobile phone registration and handover (AT command set) between the mobile phone and Base Station Transceiver (BST) being at the same level. The mobile phone being at higher level may cause the mobile network to crash due to the BST incorrectly allocating timing arc and sector information due to the angle between phone and BST. Note in commercial aviation, mobile phones may be switched on above 3000 m but must be prevented to communicate directly to the BST, instead via an on-board pico-cell satellite backhaul.

Summary

History has shown that in the event of a 7/7 or 9/11 type attack one of the first infrastructures that is completely overloaded is that of the mobile telephone infrastructure. An independent COFDM network, particularly in the guise of air to ground video and data links provides the most secure and independent way of delivering crucial C2I situational awareness.

You'll be saying next that there is a charge for the DVD's that the vids/pics are burnt onto :E

[MaxR]

Isn't it just possible that something along those lines was said but they meant something along the lines of: "The client force has not yet bought the equipment required to receive our downlink which, having originally been owned by another force, has downlink equipment which is incompatible with your receiving equipment."?

I'm not an NPAS apologist, or even a TFO, just guessing.

[airpolice]

Sid, I asked because your comments suggest that you know about such things.

As for DVD costs, someone has to pay for them. Are NPAS soaking it up in the general cost of providing air support to the Police forces, or do they make a charge for compiling and forwarding the media after acquiring images?

Surely that's part of what some chiefs complained would happen, where their budget was going to get hit for NPAS Providing services that not everyone needs, but everyone pays for.



Did this story from 2010 result in any big changes?

Police officers are being ordered to send texts rather than speak on their radios because of the sums charged by the firm that owns the police communications network.
While chief constables face unprecedented cutbacks, the company that operates the system on which all the emergency services communicate has seen a massive rise in profits. Last year Airwave Solutions’ profit margin outstripped even that of mobile-phone giant Vodafone.
Airwave’s pre-tax profit was £170 million, a 26 per cent increase on the previous 12 months. It represents an eye-watering return of 45 per cent on the company’s £380 million turnover.
The company’s charges are said to be putting a severe strain on police budgets. Officers in one rural force have been told that a penalty charge of up to £2 a second is imposed as soon as the number of calls they make goes over a pre-arranged limit.
According to Dorset Police Federation chairman Clive Chamberlain, the punitive levy has led to a series of cost-cutting measures. ‘Airwave is a very expensive system which was forced upon the police service by the Government,’ he said.
‘It was imperative to have a secure communications system. But it has come at a very high price. The advice we’re being given from the top is to send texts as much as possible because it’s going to cost a lot less money.
‘There have been a series of briefings at which a senior officer has said it costs Dorset £2 a second whenever we go over the limit. We are being told that texting more has the potential to save tens of thousands of pounds because it costs only 4p to send 1,000 texts.’
Dorset Police declined to confirm or deny the £2-a-second figure. A spokesman said: ‘The monthly charges include a fixed price for provision of the service, including a set volume of traffic, together with a variable charge that applies if the force exceeds its set monthly traffic volume.’
Airwave refused to discuss the details of its charging structure but claimed the £2-a-second calculation was ‘misleading and inaccurate’. However, a spokesman said: ‘We do charge a usage tariff, but only for excess usage over agreed contracted levels.’
No national figures are collated for the cost of Airwave to the police service as a whole, according to the Home Office. But The Mail on Sunday has discovered that Dorset’s bill last year was £612,000, Greater Manchester’s £699,000 and North Wales’s £619,000.
The country’s biggest force, the Metropolitan Police, and a number of others said they could not reveal how much they paid because the information was commercially sensitive.
Now, in an attempt to reduce the spiralling cost, officers from forces all over Britain are being trained how to text because it is cheaper.
It means police out on patrol or responding to an incident are under orders to keep in touch with their colleagues in the control room not by talking to them but by pressing buttons.
Graphic
Last night former police commanders condemned the move and said it could compromise the safety of front-line officers and the public. The network is used by every police force, fire brigade and ambulance trust in the country.
Police officers have been given a set of 16 numerical codes that correspond to buttons on their handset. By inputting the correct combination of digits, they can report their location and whether they are issuing a warrant, making an arrest, on a meal break or returning to base. The information is automatically fed into the control room computer.
In an emergency, they can summon help in the normal way. But if they are involved in a routine procedure, they have been told to use the messaging facility instead.
An investigation by The Mail on Sunday found that forces across Britain have sent their staff on texting training courses. They include North Wales, Nottinghamshire, Cheshire, North Yorkshire, Kent, Hertfordshire, Durham, Hampshire, Norfolk, Dorset and Dyfed-Powys.
But critics say ‘status messaging’, as it is known, is a time-wasting procedure that will distract officers and make them less alert to potential danger.
Former Scotland Yard Flying Squad commander John O’Connor said: ‘It is going to impact on their safety and operational efficiency. How can they be sure their text is going to be picked up so colleagues know their location? If you are talking to a colleague, they know exactly where you are and what you’re doing.
‘This is another layer of red tape which is being imposed in order to save an unquantifiable amount of money. Chief constables should stand up and say they are not going to accept it.’
Former Metropolitan Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick said: ‘If officers are trying to push buttons they won’t be looking to see what is going on around them and to that extent it’s risky.
‘When they were introducing the system, it took a large chunk of the Met’s budget and there were all sorts of problems. At the beginning it didn’t even work inside buildings and we had to put in extra transmitters which involved a lot of extra cost.
‘I don’t remember being given a choice by the Home Office. We were told, “This is the system you are getting.”’
Most police forces have contracts with Airwave based on expected usage. But if officers make more calls than allowed for in the agreement, a higher tariff is applied.
Police sources say the unpredictable nature of their work means some forces can easily exceed their limit, involving them in huge extra expense.
One officer said: ‘The force’s financial controller will make a usage prediction. But then there’s a big incident and we’re radioing in all the time. That’s when the problems start.’


Read more: Police told to send text messages because it is too expensive to speak on their radios | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1329538/Police-told-send-text-messages-expensive-speak-radios.html#ixzz4Aj4bpNCR)
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


As for the original suggestion of cops on the ground being denied the downlink, it should not be outwith the scope of a NPAS manager to find how many jobs they have attended in Appleby recently and listen to the comms from each of them. That will identify the source and truth of the matter. It would also of course allow the whole thing to be "disappeared" if it's true.

[SilsoeSid]

Just to get things straight, airpolice's only connection to anything related to the police and aviation is to have once been an RAF policeman and now has an NPPL.

To come on the various threads masquerading as someone involved with police aviation is misleading at best.

[airpolice]

Sid, are you a pilot?

[SilsoeSid]

I had an r/c quadcopter for Christmas, does that count?

[airpolice]

Just to get things straight, airpolice's only connection to anything related to the police and aviation is to have once been an RAF policeman and now has an NPPL.

To come on the various threads masquerading as someone involved with police aviation is misleading at best.

That's gonna get a few laughs in some crew rooms tonight.

[SilsoeSid]

I doubt it, the only crew rooms you frequent close at four on a Sunday afternoon.

[SilsoeSid]

Confirmed, no one in any crew room open this time on a Sunday knows you, therefore no laughter ! There may however be a few RAF guardrooms that might!

And although you haven't said it here yet, it is also confirmed that you have never been a Police pilot.

[airpolice]

Rotate too late: Has the story been deleted?

No, it's just Sid doing what he does. On running out of facts, he makes some up and then plays the man not the ball.

I have to wonder how he can ask around to find out who knows me, but can't find out about the Appleby job.

[SilsoeSid]

I have deleted nothing!
However I do notice that Rotate Too Late's post quoted by air police has been.

As far as playing the man; who is air police, that prolific poster on police aviation? Never a (civi) police officer and never a police pilot!

By the way, who said that I haven't found anything out about the Appleby job?

[airpolice]

I said it, on the basis that you are not in the habit of keeping stuff quiet once you find it.

Perhaps what you (may or may not) have found out fits MG's version rather than yours?

I have not posted on here any claim to have been a Cop or a Police Pilot.

Who is Silsoe Sid, that prolific poster on police aviation?

[SilsoeSid]

I said it, on the basis that you are not in the habit of keeping stuff quiet once you find it.

Perhaps what you (may or may not) have found out fits MG's version rather than yours?

Need to know, and you don't.
Read my earlier posts.

I have not posted on here any claim to have been a Cop or a Police Pilot.

I haven't said that you have, in fact quite the contrary.

Who is Silsoe Sid, that prolific poster on police aviation?
My point proved :ok:

[Rotate too late]

Yeah, just to be clear, I deleted the question because I was being a retard and did not find the story on first reading. Apologies for any confusion caused....:O

[airpolice]

Quote:
I have not posted on here any claim to have been a Cop or a Police Pilot.
I haven't said that you have, in fact quite the contrary.


I didn't say that you did.

[SilsoeSid]

I didn't say that you said that I said you did.

[Mike Flynn]

Just popped in to this thread.

Can I suggest if you don't like the job go find another?

[jayteeto]

That mature attitude will sort it out. Just be a sheep and agree with everything the bosses say. Many of us did leave, but many good experienced pilots actually stayed and want to make things better. They actually care, unlike you Jay Sata.

[J.A.F.O.]

Jay - I don't think anyone will be offended if you pop back out again.

[SilsoeSid]

Lol, that brings back a memory or two :ok:
(hover taxi rounding up excluded!)

p0okMo9itiw

What no head butt :ooh:

[MightyGem]

hover taxi rounding up
Tried that once with a kid on a pushbike, but there were too many other people around.

[zorab64]

Come on, boys & girls, I always believed one of the "P"s in PPRUNE stood for professional, not purile?

The airwave bills might reduce if some (quite a few) officers on the ground didn't talk into the air, rather than their microphones, when communicating. Methinks they seldom realise how impossible they are to understand.

Whilst control-room operatives have a headset mic, and normally listen to just one talk-group at a time, they can often make out what is being whispered. With up to seven inputs into an NPAS helmet, and regularly 2 or 3 at the same time (if one is actually being professional, of course) repeating transmissions will un-necessarily increase Airwave transmissions.

[SilsoeSid]

Officially now down to three regions.
Same number of aircraft to dispatch, flight follow, update and provide valuable in flight information for, with less staff in the Ops/Control Centre!?

NPAS Bases Interactive Map | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/bases/map-npas-bases)

[MaxR]

How does that work then, Sid?

NE lists Carr Gate, Newcastle and Durham Tees Valley but shows Barton, Warton and Hawarden on the list under North East region and none of those places are, from memory, terribly far East.

Then Benson, Boreham, Redhill and Wattisham are in the SE but then under South East it also shows Husbands Bosworth and Birmingham.

South West region only seems undecided about St Athan.

Elsewhere on the website the regions are named as North, South East and South West.

Is it just the website that's in a bit of a mugger's buggle?

[SilsoeSid]

Is it just the website that's in a bit of a mugger's buggle?

Now then, who's brave enough to answer that one?
:ok:


Ding, ding, room on top ......

Make your own; 'Naughty Bus to Wakefield' :ooh:

https://yorkshirebusnets.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/110.png