Such Pussies

[Joejetjock]

We pilots are all such pussies. The girls have shown us how to deal with the company properly and they did so with great success. Got everything they wanted. The blueprint is there. What's it going to take for us to wake up and smell the coffee?
Instead of moving forward, we bicker like old women over that which amounts to nothing and find new ways to further divide what is already a woefully fragmented association.
Oh...but we have so much to lose. What crap. Pussies, all of us.
The Company knows that fear trumps courage and they know just how to ratchet up the fear in their pussy pilots.
What do we need to do? Do what the girls did: get over the fear, act out of courage and threaten to strike in August. And then wait.

[Freehills]

True. But a CX flight attendant speaking English, Cantonese & probably Mandarin can walk out on strike tomorrow and get a job paying almost exactly the same amount in a shop/ coffee bar/ hotel/ bank within a week in case it goes wrong.

Pilots, not so much.

[Average Fool]

Unless you stick together.

Which is the whole point.

[VH-UFO]

Well all good then Freehills, just keep bending over then.

[ron burgandy]

I wonder what would happen if they failed to publish the FA roster at noon tomorrow.

I'm sure whatever action the FAU would take would ensure it would be out at noon the following month, and every month after that for a very long time.:ok:

[Joejetjock]

Ron Burgundy, I'm sure you're a great guy (or maybe gal) , but if the chips were down, I wouldn't want you by my side.
Fear grips your insides.

[Lowkoon]

What about "rollng stopages", stop work meetings all the good ol industrial tactics that mean you don't loose a months pay or anything else, one or two days a month, and remember, only captains need to go out, everyone else can turn up to work, and rightfully expect to get paid but the jets cant move. I'll get my hat to head outside and watch the pigs fly. :ouch:

[Lowkoon]

What percentage of workers does their association represent? Maybe they need to teach the pilot body that lesson first, then we can learn to run with them after first learning to crawl.

[RHEINHARD]

The FA's have got **** all to lose. Yes, CN's ( just like the freighter guys supposedly carrying the lion's share of CC in ANC, should take the moral high ground and take one for the team..... Bollocks. )

[Average Fool]

Bingo!!!!!

And what have the FAs lost????

Nothing.

[Good Business Sense]

[QUOTE]“You only have power over people as long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power--he's free again.”

― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

[Joejetjock]

The Company have exposed their Achilles tendon: they need to keep airplanes moving or all of them from Ivan on down might as well stay at home. If airplanes continue to be idle for any amount of time Ivan on down might be pulling out their resumes to jump ship.
The girls were smart enough to figure that out and then how to go about it: merely the "THREAT" of strike action was enough to get all they wanted. Overnight.
So what have we learned?
The Company fears strike action from any group that can stop airplanes moving and will do what it takes to prevent strike action.
What's it gonna take?...........courage. Then concerted action. And we know who needs to pick up the ball to get things rolling.
Over..

[AnAmusedReader]

they didn't "win" anything, they merely retained what the company took away!

Come on Jizz, they didn't "retain", they got it back.

It was definitely a win.

What have you had taken from you over the years and what did you get back? The answer might be "lots and nothing."

[Captain Dart]

I am not commenting on the morality or otherwise of a recruitment ban.

However, during the one in the 'unpleasantness' in the late nineties, Little Ken and Co. squealed about it like stuck pigs. It was one thing that got their attention.

[CXtreme]

REINHARTH and similar posters. I am going to take a swing with a very high probability of a home run. You are from a younger generation. Never had to fight for anything or had to sacrifice anything.

[RHEINHARD]

Not even close son. Not even close. Young ? I wish. And yes, your right. Had everything handed to me on a plate.

[CodyBlade]

Got everything they wanted

I tot they got what was theirs in the first place? no?

[CXtreme]

No Cody, no generation have rights, we strive to leave it better for the next generation.

[Joejetjock]

A recruitment ban is the way of pussies. It's putting our fight on someone else's shoulders. Why should they fight our fight by staying away? Why would we expect them to? Unconscionable.
We need to have the cohonas that the girls have and lead our own battle.
Whats it gonna take?

[Pogie]

I've been on leave, so I'm out of the loop. What exactly happened with the cabin crew?

[Anotherday]

Dan Buster,

We don't stick together, for decades each pilot in CX does what's best for them. Many years ago the company said commands are open to everyone who's been at least a day in the company but it's on local housing in HKG or F/O paysale as a skipper on a base.

Hundreds jumped at it to get in the left seat, irrelevant of the money the company was offering, including some who went straight from S/O to skipper. So much for everyone bleating currently that the HKPA isn't enough. Of course it's enough, back then with the blessing of the AOA, we all showed it was.

If the company offered future commands being offered with the proviso that you have to go into training once you're checked out left seat, do you think many would apply in spite of the AOA?

[controlledrest]

As an industry we must get rid of seniority to get any power to improve conditions.

I simply can't afford to loose my job (kids, mortgage, loan repayments…) so I won't risk my job. But, if I could join another airline at the same level or higher then everything would change.

If we could move between companies, the companies would have to compete to attract staff. At the moment they only have to attract S/Os and retain them (bond/forgivable loan) for long enough so the golden handcuffs have them locked in.

It is very simple. We are no different to lawyers, doctors and other professions where one's value is a combination of qualification and experience.

[FERetd]

controlledrest Quote :- As an industry we must get rid of seniority to get any power to improve conditions."

In which case you had better learn to play golf or join some other "clubs" frequented by the management.

Ar*ecreeping will help get promotion, but competition will be fierce.

How are your trainers selected? (Not all, admittedly).

FOUR!!!!!

[Avinthenews]

So let me get this straight, every profession on the planet requires you to join a club frequented by management for promotion?

No it doesn't, yes there are arse lickers in all professions but the world's professions function perfectly well without seniority.

Our T&Cs will continue to be driven down as long as seniority means experience won't walk out the door when he/she has had enough.

It's simple economics, joining the bottom of a new seniority list could be more than a 50% pay cut, if they cut our pay or don't raise it say 20% due to inflation, you're still better off staying unfortunately.

[controlledrest]

There would be less arse crawling if we didn't have seniority.

If you weren't scared of having your whole career coming to a halt due to a run in with a checker or the management you could speak your mind. If a company keeps on treating you like ****, change companies.

At the moment all we can do is bitch and moan on pprune and take the pineapple.

[Tankengine]

How do you decide who will be the Captain, F/O or S/O?:}

How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry Captains joining your Airline for the job you thought you would get!:ugh:)

[FERetd]

Tankengine,

You seem to understand how things work, others don't seem to have given it much thought.

Me? I am am old enough to speak from experience - the wrong side of it, the golfer got the job.

[Beta Light]

Ask the guys at Jet* Asia how the "pay for command training" is working out for them. The ones with principles that is not prepared to do it that is.

[flyingkiwi]

One would be promoted the same way as in any other industry, a heart surgeon didn't start out in that role, a partner in a law firm didn't start out as a partner same for CEOs etc, however if any of them does not like the t&c's at their current employer they can leave and don't have to start back as an intern or resident. My doctor was horrified when I explained seniority lists to him.

As for me if I could join another airline at current rank or even one step below back at home I would in a heart beat. for me to start back at the bottom would mean a 66% pay drop and our company knows it. Yet if they knew that there cpts or senior FOs could leave and get jobs elsewhere at similar ranks I am certain the negotiations would be much more beneficial to us. The catch as I see it is we need to get rid of seniority industry wide, even if the unions wanted it I would bet the airlines don't want it.

[broadband circuit]

a heart surgeon didn't start out in that role, a partner in a law firm didn't start out as a partner same for CEOs etc

Correct. But when that doctor started, was he assessed and employed as a future heart surgeon? - doubtful.

When we were assessed by the recruiters at an airline, were we assessed and employed as future captains. If they didn't think you were suitable for command, then you wouldn't have been offered the job.

There are a few extra command requirements such as total hours, or hours in company aircraft, but if every FO who's been in the company more than 2 years has the ability/personality/experience/whatever to get on a command course, then who do you offer it to? The simple answer is seniority.

Not only does seniority negate the brown nose effect, but in our job we need to be open and share information and experience with each other, and learn form others' mistakes as well as our own. If there's no seniority protecting promotion, then people will stop sharing the good information, and safety is degraded.

[Avinthenews]

there's no seniority protecting promotion, then people will stop sharing the good information, and safety is degraded.

How do doctors or any other profession survive without seniority then?

You can't apply the way people behave as a result of living in a seniority system to a system without it, you simply have to look at other professions.

A doctor goes to medical school and one day is a senior doctor/surgeon/head of dept/chief of staff or whatever and he may have stayed local or moved from hospital to hospital or wherever depending on his own circumstances, he may have simply choose to remain in small town practice.

A lawyer goes to law school and one day is a senior lawyer/partner/barrister/judge or whatever and he may have stayed local or moved from firm to firm or wherever depending on his own circumstances.

Pilot, flight school and one day senior captain/fleet manager/DFO or F/O whatever and he may have stayed local or moved from airline to airline or wherever depending on his own circumstances.

Seniority (experience not # on a list) would exist like it does in all professions but you're right a **** doctor might never be chief of surgery no matter how much arse he was licking or however long he stays at said hospital.

So except for pilots those profession pay to keep you, allowing experience to walk out the door with a month notice isn't good for business.

Apply a seniority system to any of the above careers and watch the degradation begin as they sell their soul to join the bottom of the list.

Change Captain to Senior pilot and F/O to pilot, saying you'll never become a senior pilot without a seniority system simply isn't true.

[Avinthenews]

How do you decide who will be the Captain, F/O or S/O?

How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry Captains joining your Airline for the job you thought you would get!)

How do you decide who will be the senior doctor, doctor or junior doctor?

How would you ever get promoted? (Direct entry doctors joining your hospital for the job you thought you would get!)

Sounds like doctors need to fight for a seniority list, oh hang on they are respected for their experience and qualifications!

[Avinthenews]

Beta Light

No Seniority
Ask the guys at Jet* Asia how the "pay for command training" is working out for them. The ones with principles that is not prepared to do it that is.


This very issue is caused by having a seniority system! The goal being to sacrifice everything to get on a seniority list and continue to sacrifice to stay on it.:ugh:

[Avinthenews]

The company could base promotion on who worked the most g days, or who participated in a flash mob, or who signed onto yammer, or simply sell it to the highest bidder.

The seniority system is far from perfect, but it really is the only fair, transparent system we have.

That's applying the way people behave today as a result of being in a seniority system to being out of it.

Why do banks, law firms, hospitals not work this way? Because they would be absolute crap and have the dumbest most useless employees in short time, losing money, losing cases, and killing people.

Seniority causes people to try and buck the system and airlines profit from it.

[Anotherday]

That's applying the way people behave today as a result of being in a seniority system to being out of it.

Why do banks, law firms, hospitals not work this way? Because they would be absolute crap and have the dumbest most useless employees in short time, losing money, losing cases, and killing people.

Seniority causes people to try and buck the system and airlines profit from it. We already tried the no seniority upgrade approach with freighter commands. Anyone in the company could do a freighter command, no seniority there but you took a 50% pay cut to do it. Dozens of guys knocked down the door to the 3rd floor to do it. We'd sell our own mother to get command as early as possible.

[OK4Wire]

I agree, It's the best one we've got.

Even better, how about just ONE, world-wide seniority list? Impossible to create I'm sure, but if it existed, then you could easily bid for whichever vacant post was next. It could be an FO on a BA380, or a skipper on an RJ in your favourite town, or a LH737 skipper in Berlin.

I know, I'm dreaming.

[Trafalgar]

Yes, you're dreaming. There is only ONE way to advance the quality of our existence at CX. That is finally standing up to what the management are doing to every aspect of our careers. That needs to be backed up by one simple principle: any one pilot victimised by the company means that the rest of us don't go to work until he/she is reinstated. We should have done that with the 49ers, and our failure to support our colleagues properly at that time has led to our management being quite certain that they can keep slashing without any real reaction from us. In fact, what I just suggested is the one resolute action that they are actually frightened about us committing to. We need to almost bring the airline to a stop, and then show unity in protecting any and all members with our collective support. If we did that, they would be pretty powerless to counter our action. And yes, now i'm dreaming also. :sad:

[Anotherday]

Yes, you're dreaming. There is only ONE way to advance the quality of our existence at CX. That is finally standing up to what the management are doing to every aspect of our careers. That needs to be backed up by one simple principle: any one pilot victimised by the company means that the rest of us don't go to work until he/she is reinstated. We should have done that with the 49ers, and our failure to support our colleagues properly at that time has led to our management being quite certain that they can keep slashing without any real reaction from us. In fact, what I just suggested is the one resolute action that they are actually frightened about us committing to. We need to almost bring the airline to a stop, and then show unity in protecting any and all members with our collective support. If we did that, they would be pretty powerless to counter our action. And yes, now i'm dreaming also. :sad:
If you're wondering where it ends a certain Australasian carrier a while back offered 737 commands to all its F/Os with lowest bidders being most likely to be successful.
$5K AUD a month, no paid leave, no retirement fund contribution was put forward by the winner. It was approx 1/3 what Skippy and airNZ was paying at the time.
Going off that I'd say most would do a CX command on a C scale JFO package to get the LHS hours.

[Trafalgar]

Well said CR. The selfish amongst us are almost as big an enemy and threat as our management. The latest volunteers for C and T are right at the top of that list. The contempt I feel for them is greater than I am feeling against management. I expect to be attacked by the Swire dogs, but attacked by my own professional colleagues?, outrageous and unacceptable. Know that every one of you have a stain on your back that will never fade, and I hope that most of us will remind them of it each and every time we see their cockroach like presence around the system. We are fighting probably the most important battle that our careers have ever seen, and a few of you are so desperate that you would sell out every principle and all your colleagues for something you could have obtained in a few months regardless. A clear conscience is the best pillow. You lot will never sleep well again. Disgusted.

[BillytheKid]

Show me the law firm or doctor's office that has 3,000 lawyers/doctors and I'll listen to your down with seniority argument.

[Arfur Dent]

The people who are doing Training Assessments should be named and shamed. Same as, in war, traitors are arrested and shot. There is simply no possible excuse.

[Pucka]

Whoever these guys are..any person rostered to fly with them pulls a sickie..simple!

[Freehills]

Show me the law firm or doctor's office that has 3,000 lawyers/doctors and I'll listen to your down with seniority argument.

In the US:

1 - Baker and McKenzie Chicago 3,779
2 - DLA Piper Chicago 3,452
3 - Jones Day Washington 2,517
4 - Hogan Lovells Washington 2,344
5 - Latham and Watkins New York 2,008

The NHS employs 109,000 doctors.

[freightdoggiedog]

We already tried the no seniority upgrade approach with freighter commands. Anyone in the company could do a freighter command, no seniority there but you took a 50% pay cut to do it.

OK, so call it 15-30% pay cut (except much more if going from HKG base FO to based F CN). So we were in contract compliance over 1% pay, but 15-30% for a lower paying, higher rank position is ok, yeah?


Wrong. Why do people always think our freighter skippers took a paycut for a command? F CN scale is typically 15% less than than B-scale CN scales, but these guys were not current B-scale commanders, they were FOs when they went for it. Almost everyone who took a based freighter command was a based B-scale (or even F-scale) FO, so by taking a command they obtained a substantial raise, as freighter command scales were typically 15% higher than B-scale FO on same base (and a heck of a lot higher than F-scale FO).

The real cruncher, though, was that you started accumulating command paypoints immediately, so if you were an FCN for say six years before becoming eligible for pax command, you then slid directly over to B-scale command year six. Do the math. Financially, a no-brainer if you were always planning to stay on a base.

The downsides were the high fail rate on the course, and subsequent crap rostering, but in exchange for much more money over the course of your career and a command directly on a base. And if the guys who did not go for it are honest with themselves, usually it was because of the previously mentioned drawbacks or because they preferred to come to HKG and start collecting houses (and good for them).

But the most important aspect, as pointed out by Silberfuchs, is that freighter commands were AOA instigated and sanctioned (for something like ten years). Far from being banned, they were our union's idea, whether some folks liked it or not.

Accepting a training position right now is precisely the opposite.

[BillytheKid]

Freehills-

Those attorneys/docotrs have specialties. NHS has many doctors, but they are not all General Practice doctors. While I appreciate your numbers, I don't believe them to be an accurate reflection of our profession.

We have 3 ranks within our 3,000: CN, FO, SO. Four if you include check and training, that's it. Attorneys/doctors have many more catagories within their fields, which provides multiple iterations.

The first firm you listed practices 13 different fields of law. Within each of those fields are many different aeas that requires specialized attention. We just don't have that structure.

[Anotherday]

Freightdoggiedog Silberfuchs

They took a job that was paying less because they put their own selfish wants ahead of the greater good of the pilot group at CX. There wouldn't even be a Freighter pay scale if no one had taken it. I've already heard all the bs reasons why guys were 'forced' to take a command before their number came up.
And now with reduced freighters and the slow death of the 744 fleet the whole thing is turning into a goat f*ck with massive overmanning on bases.

Is their moral compass going to send them back to Hong Kong since I doubt any of them are senior enough to hold a pax command on a base anywhere?

As usual the pilot group only does what's best for them. Anyone who doesn't want to be a trainer thinks the ban is a great idea, anyone who got into training 3 months ago is laughing their head off.

[BillytheKid]

Anotherday-

WTF are you talking about! There is absolutely no such overmanning of the jumbo on bases. Do you even fly airplanes, let alone work for CX?

[Anotherday]

Billy, this is like arguing with my 5 yr old.

So the RHS qual for freighter 744 line captains is because we're undermanned and not because we need to put them into any seat to get enough productivity out of them?

Good one.

Freighter commands were a bad idea, they've weakened our COS. End of story.

[BillytheKid]

That's your justification!? RHS Captains? :ugh:

I work 20 days per month now at more than 90 hours. That's the first time I've consistently done that on this fleet. Contract Compliance is the reason of course. Er go, we are short of crews because we have stopped helping the company underman this operation.

Recall the conversation said to be had between a certain Boeing Chief Pilot and the then CEO regarding 777-300ER deliveries. "Where would you like me to park them because we have no pilots to fly them." That was years ago and CC has only exacerbated that reality.

Who will fly the 350's?

[DropKnee]

Junior triple 7 crew from what I've heard.

Than who will fly the 777?

[freightdoggiedog]

Freight doggie, arguing with you is like talking to an alcoholic about drinking. Re-read your nonsense sometime when you aren't busy looking at yourself in the mirror and drooling.


OK Rod, I have shaken myself out of my alcoholic stupor and ripped myself away from my mirror just long enough to dribble a response... I understand you're sensitive about FCNs, but just because you don't like what I wrote don't necessarily make it wrong, although I understand the drool ain't pretty :}

The analogy you and others have made is misleading because, once again, whether you personally agreed with it or not (drum roll please), freighter commands weren't just accepted by our union, they were AOA-proposed and sanctioned.

It's tempting to blame the next guy for our problems, blame the current cadets for joining on HKPA and undermining our housing, or guys from joining on B-scale and undermining A-scalers, or based guys for taking bases and undermining our unity as Hong Kong-based crew, but the only way you can really draw the line as to what can and can't be legitimately done is through our union, democratically. Propose a motion, get it seconded and voted on. Otherwise, it just remains your opinion.

I used to dislike finding out that the guy or gal sitting next to me had been called out on a G-day as I have always disagreed with the practice, but I would keep my mouth shut as it was his/her prerogative. Now that we are in CC, it's unacceptable.

Just one drunken doggie's opinion, sorry for the drool on the keyboard :)

[Trafalgar]

You ain't seen 'crazy' until you've seen CX 'batsh*t crazy'....!!

[Hedo Rick]

You ain't seen 'crazy' until you've seen Masako ISM big hair crazy! :}

[Ben revoD]

Back to the pussy theme.....

Aside from whinging on pprune here are a couple of suggestions.

Make an appointment to see the DFO and tell her face-to-face how you feel. Some have done this, including me. Imagine 2,000 pilots doing so at 30 mins per chat. Best part of 6 months to get through that lot.

Yammer is quite rightly treated with a degree of cynicism. However, there are a growing number of people who are using the medium to let the powers-that-be know how crap things are at the coal face. You will obviously have to be civil, but serious points are being made that have to be read by our masters. You'd be surprised at the number of "likes" posts get, and by senior names too. You want to be heard? Go there. I'm sure you're not deluded enough to think that our betters spend their time here. Yammer is a company communication tool, use it. Imagine 2,000 pilots each posting to the FOP group each time they are messed around, RPs are abused/misinterpreted, breakfast allowance deducted post-delay etc. Could easily be thousands of posts per month.

Alternatively you could be an anonymous, big-man, big-mouth, internet hero. Just like I'm being now ;)

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

Amen to all of that!

[BusyB]

Why do they have to be read?:confused:

[LongTimeInCX]

I don't have time to Blabber, Twatter, Jabber, yamma etc, and quite surprisingly, the sun still comes up the next morning.
Hats off to those with time to waste reading propaganda.
Props to those taking the time to let the company know how badly many things are being Mis-handled.
If they want us to know important information, I'll happily wait until it comes through one of the many assorted official channels.

[Barronflyer]

All that irony was lost on you LONG TIME

You don't have the time to complain about the rubbish going on in YAMMER yet you have 227 posts on Pprune

No wonder we are f*****

[White None]

Time to PPRattle's different! :ok:

[OK4Wire]

A tad more than 3 posts per month? Not overly significant, is it?

And besides, the point is that's his leisure time; not a mandated, measured and required event that would be conducted for the company's benefit on equipment provided privately.

It's like saying the mandated AEP lunch is no big deal, after all, we need to eat!

[goathead]

Were f**ked anyway
why worry about it
its all over , give it another two years we will all be ants getting washed down a storm drain

[Flying Clog]

That's the spirit :D