Horse and cart situation.

[sailor]

Returned PHL-LHR yeterday as SLFwith BA after recurrent training . Great trip (if any eastbound can be so described!) until taxiing towards stand at T4 when our gallant Commander announced that he would have to shut down and continue to stand under tug power because of noise restrictions; time 0735 local. About 15 minutes later we arrived on stand; that was about 4% of our excellent flight time from PHL with a good tailwind. On seeking the source of the restriction we were advised that it was the proximity of the Hilton Hotel. Now that was built not too many years ago when Heathrow airport had already been in noisy operation for far longer, so they must have known the problems of siting the hotel that close to a noisy environment. Is it not a totally ridiculous situation where an airline and its passengers have to suffer unwarranted delays, problems of organisation and all the rest that goes with moving aircraft on stand by tug on completion of a flight for the sake of a hotel that chooses to be sited very close to noise. Lobbying to reverse the restriction should be a priority in my opinion!

[Sick Squid]

If you're looking to participate in the "US v Europe or whatever" debate that this sparked off then click here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56320) and debate away to your hearts content in Jet Blast.

Let's keep this one to debate the extremely valid point raised by Sailor, which has implications for all major airports near urban developments. As one who has often crossed the Atlantic, landed on schedule, only to then suffer the ignominy of having to shut down and be towed onto stand, arriving well behind schedule, this is a good topic.

Not a rumour or piece of news, however, which is why it's here.....

Sick Squid

[Lou Scannon]

There used to be the same problem at the North Terminal at LGW following the building of an hotel by the British Airports Authority.
Once they had sold the property to a hotel chain however, they stopped interfering with aircraft operations.

It's a real joke to build right next to the airport, save money on installing effective sound proofing, then pass the problems on to the airlines. That is the benefit (to the BAA) of having a virtual monopoly!

[DistantRumble]

Is this a posted NOTAM or anything ?

Can someone post either that or the relevant aerodrome and time/aircraft type restrictions

Or is it BA policy.

However, if you have stayed in the IBIS hotel near the start of 27R , you will find that even triple glazing doesn't shut it out when that's the T/O runway.

So it's not consistent

[ATCO Two]

Right, let's clear this one up once and for all! This has nothing to do with the Hilton Hotel per se. It seems that this excuse has passed into local folklore! The Terminal 4 noise restrictions were imposed as a result of the Terminal 4 Enquiry and are very strictly adhered to by airlines and ATC. The restrictions are designed to mitigate noise nuisance to the residents of Bedfont and adjacent settlements. They apply to all airlines, not just BA.

Our instructions state that there must be no use of aircraft engines or APUs in the 'S' and 'V' aprons between the hours of 2330 and 0630 local. Between the hours of 2300 and 0700 local there must be no taxying in the 'S' and 'V' aprons, nor can aircraft taxy East of Block 118. These are the noise restrictions - they are a pain to everybody, but we are obliged to enforce them.

Now there are separate HAL Terminal 4 restrictions based on health and safety requirements. As "sailor's" flight landed at 0735 it was these restrictions that his aircraft was subject to, so said Captain was incorrect on two counts. These separate restrictions apply to movements in the 'V' apron only, betwen 0700 and 2300 local and state that all 3 and 4 engined aircraft and B777s inbound to stands V18 - V22 inclusive have to shut down their engines and be towed on to stand. This procedure was introduced due to incidents with excessive jet efflux in the apron causing damage and threat to life.

The carnage in the Terminal 4 area first thing in the morning caused by these restrictions, a lack of stands, and towing movements has to be seen to be believed. But that is a whole different subject. We need Terminal 5 - yesterday!!

[Sick Squid]

Thanks ATCO2.. although not moving anything large out of T4 these days, it helps to have the real reasons. I'll know who to blame when I can't start the APU on S1 at the Crack of Sparrows, minus 5 celsius, in December. :)

Part of the irony is that the 777 has the quietest APU going, yet is still affected by the blanket application of policy. Now the Victors I always could understand, after all one of the H and S incidents was caused by a Triple if I remember correctly, losing speed in the turn onto stand and powering up to make it round. Perfectly acceptable in that instance to be towed on, indeed similar rules apply elsewhere (LAX, the 120's is it, for the widebodies... too long ago.)

This is part of the reason behind our much maligned policy of arriving within schedule minus 20, to "try" and ensure that the resources are spread as efficiently as possible. My own observation over the years has been that one of the biggest flies in the ointment are the early morning tow-ers.... they really cause problems on several levels for all of us.

£6

[flapsforty]

Onya ATCO2; the horror of flying out of T4 on early (winter)mornings finally explained.
Carnage as you say; and not only outside on the apron!

But at least in furure I will know exactly what to tell the pax. Being truthful helps.

[DX Wombat]

You may like to know that the reason offered to us as passengers on an early morning (0530ish) arrival from Dunnunda, was that BA's 747-400 was too big to be able to negotiate the tight turns into T4 without being towed in. :confused:

[sailor]

Thanks ATCO Two for providing the gospel answer! In retrospect I'm sure the Captain must have been correct and it was 0635 not 0735 local - I was still jetlagged when I posted the wrong time! I made the onward flight at 0850 from T1 so it had to be!
That of course leads on to the obvious next question - will similar (or worse) restrictions be applied to T5 - eventually? :confused:

[ATCO Two]

Hello Sailor!

Yes there will be extremely strict noise restrictions for Terminal 5 as it is near to Longford Village.

£6 - there is a Stand Allocation Plan each morning that is supposed to deal with the Terminal 4 situation. It probably looks really good on a computer screen somewhere, but I am sure it doesn't take into account work in progress, taxiway restrictions and the problems that opposite direction towing aircraft cause us all. Especially those little gems that tow from T4 to the cargo apron Westbound along the Southern taxiway, or others that tow from T4 across the runway to Block 160 etc at the North West corner of the airport. It all runs on a knife edge - it only takes one outbound aircraft to be late leaving the stand to start a chain reaction that lasts for hours! There is also a distinct lack of space to hold aircraft on the South side as you are aware. A totally frustrating situation for all. We feel for you guys landing and then waiting 40 minutes and more to get onto a stand. We do our best and offer alternatives to the stand allocation people when stands become free, but the Stand Allocation Plan seems to be very inflexible.

Yes it was the B777 incident that caused the H & S restrictions in the Victors.

Hi Flaps 40 - glad to have been of service.