Emirates - The most unprofessional airlines ever [Archive]

outtaspace

13th Jun 2015, 11:35

Hello peeps,

Just wanted all share this incident that happened with me and a few other pilots with Emirates. This is definitely not the airlines anyone should join in the near future. There is no respect for pilots in the company and the management will skin you alive here. AT ALL COSTS STAY AWAY FROM EMIRATES.
I was invited for the screening for Dubai and i was told i will be given a online visa by Abdul Fahdil and his incompetent team of HR. Till my date of travel i didn't receive any visa or anything and as you are aware we pilots barely manage to get leave for any such screening from our present airlines it was all a waste. The only reply i got from that douchebag was this, "Hi,
Thank you for your e-mail. I am currently out-of-office (weekend) and will not be able to check my emails till Sunday. For candidates wishing to cancel their interview please also write to Premier Inn and cancel the room booking.
Thank you and Best Regards,
Abdul Fadhil
Flight Operations
Group Recruitment
Emirates Airline & Group". I must have mailed him atleast 5 times around 10 days from the date of travel that you haven't sent me the visa and the only reply i get from his is this ******* auto reply. This clearly shows that emirates doesn't care for pilots or they are either jealous of them. Another guy got selected in emirates went home and resigned from his company after 15 days gets a mail from emirates saying that sorry to inform you haven't been selected now. When the pilot asks for a reason the standard reply you get from them is emirates doesn't give any reasons. Anyways emirates is the lowest paid airlines in the middle east with poor rosters and a ****all management for pilots. If you want to feel what a prison is like sure come and join them or else stay away from this ****hole.

Mr Good Cat

14th Jun 2015, 16:11

Well, that pretty much sums up the organizational side of things at EK.

Sorry that you got messed about.

If you're happy at your present gig treat it as a sign that it was never meant to be.

nakbin330

14th Jun 2015, 16:43

The HR side of recruitment has always been a total mess. Abdul probably went on leave, simple as that. They're as bad as the Accommodation Dept, perhaps worse.

Welcome to Emirates and Hello Tomorrow.

Don Corleone

14th Jun 2015, 17:22

Anyways emirates is the lowest paid airlines in the middle east with poor rosters and a ****all management for pilots. If you want to feel what a prison is like sure come and join them or else stay away from this ****hole.

So why did you apply for the job in the first place???

Another guy got selected in emirates went home and resigned from his company after 15 days gets a mail from emirates saying that sorry to inform you haven't been selected now. When the pilot asks for a reason the standard reply you get from them is emirates doesn't give any reasons.

After the phone call that you've been selected you get an email stating to wait with resigning from your current employer till you have the contract from Emirates

furbpilot

14th Jun 2015, 19:18

As someone mentioned the accommodation department with which I had an incredible adventure few years ago that developed into one of the biggest **** up aviation will remember and that ultimately costed me an incredible price in professional, economical and personal terms I kindly ask you if anyone on this forum pilot or cabin crew is willing to share privately if he had any dealings with Government building in Al Hudeiba and the infamous water pumps sitting on the roof.
My lawyer would particularly interested on the experience of a South African FO already resigned from EK that remained in the very same apartment for just one night before returning to temporary accommodation due to the same mental insanity inducing noise and vibrations I endured for 16 months with my newly married wife. That experience turned our till then happy life into a open eye nightmare with dire consequences.I would also like to mention the complete and crass incompetence of the EK clinic that notwithstanding clear evidence managed to miss a potentially life threatening pathology. They probably were too busy investigating my mental sanity :eek:( that themselves put actually in jeopardy ) and managing my anger. :ugh:
Kafka could not have invented such a plot..my compliments EK management.
I'm being doing my part to raise awareness in regards of the complete lack of protection you suffer in being an EK employee and how helplessly you are the mercy of imbeciles managers in an almost complete legal vacuum. I would say that my work is paying off.. and I will continue as long as I will get compensation..one way or the other.
I take to occasion to inform Mr. Talking Horse of the following : the day will come.

The Outlaw

15th Jun 2015, 01:50

Finally, someone who saw past the smoke and mirrors and saw past the bull****. For all you who prefer to bury facts with fiction...take note!

Vortex Thing

15th Jun 2015, 10:35

furbpilot

Surely you could have just moved into the accommodation of your choice and taken the allowance. If you were newly married we assume you had now children. It isn't difficult to find a nice apartment in Dubai.

Had you been in a company vill I may get it but come on it's just an apartment was it worth your career?

Don't get me wrong both FZ anded have issues regarding the treatment of their staff but things like this are everyday occurrences in Dubai. No one does what they meant to, when they are meant to. the idea is that after a few years here you get it an just ignore the minutiae and get on with the enjoyable bits and take this as the fact that you aren't in Europe and this is part of the cost.

They don't care either way, you leave they just get another pilot. So the only people who lost were you and your wife.

furbpilot

15th Jun 2015, 14:18

Thing..wow you are so smart in finding solutions ain't yo?
Unfortunately back in those days( Dubai melt down) the allowance was from a certain point in time given only to whom was to buy an apartment and not to rent one.
It started retroactively by one week from the date I made the request for the allowance.No surprise you start to become a tad paranoid. The place is ran on it.:ugh:
I had no frikking plan to buy a single brick in the crumbling sand castle and that was not what was written on my contract.
Leaving a safe job in Europe to go to McDonalds Airlines proved the worst error..a fatal one.

Ilyushin76

15th Jun 2015, 17:29

All this reading has baffled me. So this is what is going on behind the "Fly Emirates Keep Discovering" airline. :eek:

I would really appreciate it if more pilots would share their experiences.

falconeasydriver

15th Jun 2015, 17:56

All this reading has baffled me. So this is what is going on behind the "Fly Emirates Keep Discovering" airline.

I would really appreciate it if more pilots would share their experiences.

Sigh......:ugh:

Mach_Krit

15th Jun 2015, 19:17

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:mate where have you been ? :-P

bia botal

15th Jun 2015, 19:48

Clearly dis-ilyushined! :)

SOPS

15th Jun 2015, 23:39

I don't believe that some one could actually write that.:ugh::ugh:

Vortex Thing

16th Jun 2015, 07:52

Furb pilot

Well call me a bluff old traditionalist but we have a marvellous saying from home, 'Where there is a will there is a way!'

If you are being passed over for command, if you are being held back as an instructor, if your career is being fouled and the chain supports the perpetrators then I see cause. If you you are not being paid what you are meant to get in the contract, when you are meant to get it, then I also see cause.

However people coming on and whinging about having to work too hard, having to sit about on standby for longer, having to do medicals on days off or as in your case because the apartment didn't suit need their heads testing.

Personally and likely because I haven't had it easy. I am grateful if I get paid at the end of the month, can feed my family and have any form of future. So something like a noisy apartment. I would just move somewhere else, regardless of cost as being unemployed or having to work for someone like THY in your case does not make for a better situation than living in Dubai.

But hey you chose to leave, and that is your right so it's not like you stayed and whinged about it but I'm betting you didn't help your command prospects much by going to THY.

I sum your decision making process up as I would rather be at THY than UAE errm ok think we don't have that much to talk about then.

Glad it worked out so well for you!

Stone_cold

16th Jun 2015, 08:20

Justmarried

16th Jun 2015, 08:49

I can live with it here, cause i do not
regard it as home. Never did, never will. Never!

I've chosen the expat life, because i had no other choice..

I opted out from the beginning, took the allowance and added it to my
salary. Beach view, pool, marina night life, why not.

120.000AED for the 2BR appartement, rest in my pocket.

Mini Airbus rosters were horrible, i was fatigued in a way
i never experienced before in my life.
Maxi Airbus rosters are fine for the moment, it's like flying
for another company within the company.

Wife is here, flies home at least once a month to visit the family
and i do the same. Coming from Europe
it is not always easy but manageable.

I decided to join EK with all it's pros and cons, cause i
will not stay forever anyway. I just fly the roster and take
the money. It's way more than at home, and way less than
it should be. They know it, they will never change it, and i know that.

They could do so much for us to make us a happy workforce.
Most of the stuff would be for free and easy to change.
They will not do it, never ever.

For me it still works because of the above mentioned reasons.

For many of my friends it would not work and
I tell them not to join. I warned them that they will become
unhappy within hours of joining.

Most of my friends have similar problems in
other countries with other airlines.
EVERY place has it's downsides, the grass only appears
to be better, but it isn't i suppose.

Dubai can be tough sometimes so be prepared.
Everything you read about it on this site is true!

If you think you could deal with it than go for it.
If you have any concerns about you and your wife and kids
being here, than i suggest not to come here.

Even in my short period of time things have changed, everything
became more difficult.
I will stay as long as it still works for me and the mrs, and leave as soon as it doesn't anymore.

Stratosphere6000

16th Jun 2015, 13:58

Vortex , because you have "had it hard" and just happy to be paid at the end of the month is also your choice . Frankly , this seems to be the very attitude that has served to collectively lower the bar in this profession .

If any part of an agreement is not upheld , it is an issue . It is not just about money for most I would believe .

@Stone Cold. You're spot on mate. Couldn't have summed up the demise of this profession better. Too many people willing to fly for food if you know what I mean.

nolimitholdem

16th Jun 2015, 15:15

Personally and likely because I haven't had it easy. I am grateful if I get paid at the end of the month, can feed my family and have any form of future.

Jay-sus. Like a whipped dog. Not exactly setting the bar very high, are you now?

"Come fly for Emirates. You even get paid."

It really is not hard to figure out why the industry is in the toilet when you see expectations as low as these.

cerbus

16th Jun 2015, 15:39

Vortex is the most pathetic person on prune and certainty has the worst post I have ever read.
I really hope you are not a pilot Vortex. Not wonder our profession isn't what it used to be with "men" like you.

furbpilot

16th Jun 2015, 15:40

Thing.. Stone a Strato say you are the perfect example of what the problem with this profession seems to be today. People unwilling to stand up for their basic rights, over displaying gratitude, all flattered just for getting food on their table, for having "some sort" of future, self centered, uninterested of others, self serving.
But aren't you are providing a qualified professional service and giving non renewable time to a company that in exchange pays your dues?
They are not making you a favor my friend you are, to them, first.
Or you really have such a low opinion of your self and the whole category ?
Dubai is simply a place not really meant for human habitation and you cannot compare with a city with thousands of years of history center of two empires like Istanbul populated by real people with real lives surrounded by an incredibly rich culture.
I did enjoy the professional part of my Dubai experience and I did my best with the rest but it was a vain effort. I do pretty much enjoy my life in Istanbul and I do my best to give my contribution to the big changes and growth on their way.
A tad late I must admit..but hope you will be relieved knowing I'm on my upgrade course at the moment. I did have to fight for it and it was sure not easy. I did it for me and for others and we at least partially solved the problem..looking for further improvements. I did the same for my basic right to have a bit of serenity for my newly formed family in my contractual company provided accommodation in Dubai..I ended up in front of Syrian psychiatrist and endured a Calvary that I do not wish my worst enemy. Well..at least I'm certified mentally sane:ok:

Nikita81

16th Jun 2015, 17:20

People unwilling to stand up for their basic rights, over displaying gratitude, all flattered just for getting food on their table, for having "some sort" of future, self centered, uninterested of others, self serving.

I have to quote this for truth and admiration.

Ilyushin76

16th Jun 2015, 21:37

I didn't know inquiring about something you did not know was officially a very serious crime on the forum :uhoh:. Some of us are new to the profession perhaps? :*

parabellum

16th Jun 2015, 23:23

Do they actually send you a visa? Used to be 'visa on arrival' and there was a specified desk to deal with it, but that was a while ago. Just asking.

SOPS

17th Jun 2015, 00:06

Vortex is an EK managment dream pilot....as long as we give him enough money for food every month, we can do anything we like to him.

It's no wonder the airline that should be the greatest job in the world is in the mess it is.

Curry Goat

17th Jun 2015, 00:07

Parabellum. "Visa on arrival" only for select countries. For the majority of countries of the world, prior visa required. Been that way for as long as I remember.

Outatowner

17th Jun 2015, 17:49

V Thing, if it's that bad maybe consider going to Maydaydan and wash cars on your XX days for extra ca$h.

halas

18th Jun 2015, 04:26

Most posts on this thread seem to have been encrypted.

halas

Vortex Thing

18th Jun 2015, 11:53

I think several posters above have gotten the wrong end of the stick in their haste to bash anyone who doesn't hate Dubai.

It appears many of you think that you should go out on strike when the brand of water is changed in the cockpit. I am not advocating the contracts not being adhered to, I am not advocating relentless changes in Ts&Cs, I am also not saying that it is okay to not give contractual entitlements.

What I am saying is that furbpilot had a job. What many would consider and excellent job. He choose to leave that job rather than move apartments.

I am saying where you live versus career = not a great trade.

Re contracts of course you should get what you are entitled to. He was entitled to an apartment, he had one! How does that make me wrong!

I am happy to get paid because I have been in airlines where they don't give you anything you signed up for. His current airline based in what he calls a rich cultural city is a good example. THY don't pay what is in the contract, they don't give you what you are entitled to and Dubai versus Istanbul is a hands down win for Dubai from my perspective every time. Taxi drivers in Dubai may get lost but they mostly speak some English. Aden and Sanaa have lots of culturally historic buildings I don't see us rushing there. Living in Istanbul was nice for the odd night out, most of the time it was a nightmare and waiting for the next accident to happen from an operational point whilst living in domestic conditions of squalor with no useful amenities (certainly for me) at the hands of tragic ineptness which makes the Dubai banks look like Lloyds of London and administrative practises that date back to the 1700s.

How many expat pilots have moved their families to IST and how many expat families live in DXB. Why does furbpilot think that 350,000 Western Expats live in Dubai if life here is so terrible. Personally I love living in Dubai, in fact I prefer it to living at home in UK which is why I am here!

Dubai and the airline are not one and the same thing. So much so that even were I to leave the airline I would commute from wherever else I worked to Dubai rather than relocate my family.

So Stone Cold, no limit, SOPs and Outatowner. The answer is simple yes if you give me enough money you can do whatever the hell you want with me as money IS all that matters. Money solves all the other issues, such as accommodation, pension, travel, family, etc if you get paid enough you can deal with all of these yourself. I for one don't care if they fly me 900hrs every year. It's their job to maximise the return on their investment (i.e. me). Its my job to do whatever they want me to as long as they give me what they say they are going to.

So 92hrs a month fine, 5yr bond, 10yr bond, hell bond for life also fine. Bond for upgrade fine, 900hrs a year fine, time in the bunk not paid, fine, hell you can even have my soul. As long as my family are safe, the money goes in the bank and if you kill me they get the life insurance. Anything else is a bonus.

Work is more important than me. My family is more important than me. In fact the least important thing is me full stop. I call that duty to my family and being a professional.

Whinging when my apartment isn't what I wanted and thinking that being at THY is better than being at EK well if thats the case then the statistics will likely back it up in the end. As of today I don't think they do.

I know that not everyone in Dubai is happy here. Last I checked you're welcome to take furbpilots route out to go to a "better" option in your own time. That however does give Cerbus the right to call me pathetic. Pathetic is someone who snipes by calling names, cannot construct an argument using pros and cons of what is being said and calls someone names just because they disagree with someones right to say whatever the hell they like. If you disagree fine but personal insults because someone doesn't share your politics I think define who the pathetic person on this forum is.

SOPS

18th Jun 2015, 12:04

Small point Vortex, ( and I stand to be corrected), but I think you will find that if you went to another job elsewhere ( outside of the UAE ) your family would not be allowed to stay in Dubai.

And I don't how old you are, but I assure you with the way Emirates is currently working people, you won't live long enough to enjoy all the money that is so important to you.

Vortex Thing

18th Jun 2015, 12:37

SOPs,

I'm glad you stand to be corrected. There are numerous ways one can stay in Dubai whilst not working for EK, FZ et al.

For starters if you wife happens to be a doctor, lawyer, accountant, teacher, dentist and quite a few others. Then she can sponsor you and the children.

If you own a house in Dubai you can be resident solely based on that.

Lastly you could have two jobs, you can start your own business doing management, IT or even aviation consulting. You can get visas based on that.

As for the money. I don't work to earn money so that I can spend it. I don't care about the money. I have pretty much everything that I want already. I care about the experiences to be had in life such as nice holidays with my family but everything else I really don't care that much about as I have it already.

However I do care about flying planes. If I had $10million. I would spend it buying planes and flying them myself.

I only need money as it gives my family the things that they need. So I don't care if I die as my family get the life insurance. If I live then they get my salary. Seems like a win win to my family from my perspective.

Alconguin Crusader

18th Jun 2015, 12:57

Vortex in this profession it is not so much about money as it is work rules. Money is good but without work rules and conditions you get what we got here. Overworked and fatigued pilots.
Lots of airlines pay their pilots at the end of the month but that doesn't make them a good airline or one that is desirable to work for.

Vortex Thing

18th Jun 2015, 13:30

Alconguin

Of course it doesn't. I am hardly new to this profession.

In the same way that you can buy a Skoda or Lykan Hypersport and it will still get you from A to B. In the same way that you can eat in a Michelin Starred restaurant or eat street food and not die of starvation. If of course follows that there is more than work to getting paid!!!

Good old Maslow's pyramid comes to mind. My point is not that getting paid is the end state but that getting paid is far more rare than many and perhaps you think?

It is the conditions and execution of the contractual obligations OVER & ABOVE the pay that do indeed differentiate the good from the bad. We can have an existence or we can enjoy our lives because of those differences.

The point being raised by furbpilot was that he would rather leave what he had here to go to THY. Where the Ts&Cs are ignored and you are not even paid what was on your contract. I care more about good wifi and good a/c in my hotel room than about the quality of the swimming pool others may say the opposite. The same follows for life in Istanbul versus Dubai. However the proof is in the pudding and more expats come here than Istanbul so feel vindicated by this alone.

That said just because the majority of people do something, of course does not mean that it is correct, right or fair so it is not a winnable argument suffice to say I think anyone who would rather be at TK than EK is certifiable but that is MY opinion and not a fact. (something Cerebus would likely call some name or other)

I think the thread started with how unprofessional the airline is and furby decided to come in with his example of not liking his accommodation as proof of that.

I there come back to the thread point and my point. The ME pays well and gives good benefits, benefits that many other airlines do not even come near to and with opportunities that simply do not exist for many of us in our homes countries (14-18yrs to command on B777 at BA or Virgin) come to mind. If that means that everyone has to put up with some fatigue and even overwork. I personally am happy to kill myself for my career and to provide for my family.

Sorry but work life balance is all pinko lefty rubbish. I don't care how long and hard I work or if it kills me. I just want my family to have the cost of my blood, sweat and tears. Desirable for me doesn't have to be the same for you. However it has to be enough to keep the planes flying as when it becomes so undesirable than no one wants to work here that is when they have clearly gotten the hiring policy or retention policy (stifled laugh) wrong.

This doesn't make me a management wet dream it makes me a realist. The world doesn't care how valuable we think we are, the world doesn't care what we think, the world doesn't owe us a living so if China, Ryanair, Asia et al draw al the pilots away and EK, FZ, etc become the next Ghost Ship airlines then they will simply have to reconsider or become extinct.

For now though, you're here. I'm here and until we find something better or it kills us thems our apples.

SOPS

18th Jun 2015, 13:41

Ok Vortex, fair enough. You enjoy flying aircraft, regardless of the conditions, and if it kills you, that's fine, because your family has your life insurance.

I am enjoying not flying aircraft anymore. Because I would like to spend a few years with my family, enjoy my children, grandchildren, my dogs and most importantly my wife, before I die.

I will let the argument rest.

congoman

18th Jun 2015, 13:58

I personally am happy to kill myself for my career and to provide for my family. Hope your wife and kids are happy with that arrangement! Enough money but no quality time with their husband/father. No wonder kids in this world are so screwed up. It's not the money kids want - it's time with you! If you can't give them the time - your money is going to be a poor replacement.
Sorry but work life balance is all pinko lefty rubbish. Really? Still a little young are we? Let's give you (and your family) a couple of years.
This doesn't make me a management wet dream (Actually it does. It's also the reason the situation in the ME won't improve.)

I would comment on vortex's other statements, but they're simply too numerous and too stupid to dwell on.

I love twins

18th Jun 2015, 14:04

I find it worrying the amount of times that Vortex says he doesn't care if he dies for his job. Surely you're worth more than a job?

I fully agree and empathise that family, and experiences with your family come first. But there is a happy medium. Dying for your work, or being happy to be a slave seem a bit extreme....

In any case, all the best to you and your family!

Vortex Thing

18th Jun 2015, 14:12

Nope I'm not worth more than a job.

The cemetery is full of people who thought they were. You as a human being are only worth what you put in the bank last month. If you can't provide your love and caring won't feed or clothe your family, pay the school fees or pay the mortgage.

I am happy to be a slave to my family. If I cannot provide for them then I have no business being a husband and a father. If I sell them short and do not give them what I promised to provide then I fail them and as such am worthless. Period

Snake man

18th Jun 2015, 14:15

Yes, I find Vortex's repeated references to his own death deeply troubling as well. I think the aviation shrinks would have a field day with this chap.

SOPS

18th Jun 2015, 14:18

Now Vortex, I am a bit worried about you. You think you are only worth what you put in the bank last month? You really think that is your total worth in life?

I am concerned for your self worth.

In fact thinking about it, I'm worried about your mental health.

cucuotto

18th Jun 2015, 14:22

May be it's time to review some overrated values such as " family". In the country and region of my father they still kill for " la famiglia".... An ideal society would not force someone to prostitute himself to feed his family like Vortex seemst to be doing..

SOPS

18th Jun 2015, 14:31

Or perhaps Vortex is a troll. I hope he is in a way, his acceptance of death worries me.

Alconguin Crusader

18th Jun 2015, 14:53

Vortex your comments are troubling on a multitude of levels. The one about killing yourself for your job is most disturbing. I guess you are happy to be flying a big airplane. Big Shinny Jet Syndrome comes to mind. Have a big watch and something else small do you?
Your comparison of Turkish to Emirates if ironic. How many pilots are trying to go to Turkey vs how many are trying to come to Emirates? I know Turkish is not having trouble getting pilots. On every level EK is having trouble getting pilots.
On the recent advert for A-330 DECs Emirates had to cancel for lack of interest. Did this shock anyone in the Bouncy Castle? Probably not since their heads are so far up their ass they haven't seen the light of day for years. So what this means is that any widebody pilot would rather stay at their current job rather than come to Dubai and work for Emirates. Most probably since our pay is so sub-standard and the conditions ****e.
If our pay is so great as you proudly state why are we having so much trouble getting AND keeping pilots? I'll tell you why, because we don't pay Industry Standard pay and don't offer ANY work rules. What are you comparing us to when you say our pay is so great? I know most 777 pilots make more than us.
Congratulations you are flying a big airplane. Now if only you can get the pay and treatment to go along with it.

congoman

18th Jun 2015, 14:58

Hope we're not heading for another German Wings situation when reality kicks in and this guy finally wakes up.

Vortex Thing

18th Jun 2015, 21:19

First things first. I never said that I would kill myself for my job, what I said was that if the job kills me then so be it. The two are entirely different. Does a Deep Sea Diver not know what he is doing to his body and accepting that the job is dangerous and costly in human terms but take the risk and the money. why?

Does an astronaut or a test pilot not do the same? Why?

Why is it that so many of you are so unwilling to accept your own a) mortality and b) worth.

My viewpoint is not one of wanting, seeking or even being happy with the prospect of the inevitable but the only certainties in life other than taxes are a good night out if you get a nurse drunk.

My family may want time with me but if the choice is time with me versus school fees/mortgage being paid I know which they will remember when everyone else has a life and they are working two jobs because I wanted an extra cuddle. How selfish would that be. I want more time with them, but there are many things I want. Want doesn't get!

It was a simple thing that I and many accepted as part of military service. Not every one makes it and if they do there is often no rhyme or reason as to their point of dispatch to the never after.

I wish to live a long and happy life, seeing my family flourish and prosper. I want to see grandchildren and the generation I am rearing reaping the success of my hard work. However I chose to get married and chose to have children. They didn't ask to be born. I want their lives to not be as hard as mine. I want them to enjoy not having to work like I have, do and will do so that their offspring also enjoy what I likely will not get the opportunity to do so.

It's called sacrifice! Your lack of faith in wanting to do the right thing for the right value is so jaded from constant cynicsm that you believe that nobody can be altruistic without being mad.

Shame on you. I don't think that I have nothing to offer society and certainly don't think I have nothing to offer aviation. In fact I think quite the reverse I enjoy work. Some of us enjoy it so much that that is all we need.

Some people need a Lamborghini, a Ferrari or a Bugatti. There are happy bush pilots out there and unhappy chief pilots in flag carriers. I personally think that being a TRE is more valuable than the extra pay as being able to pass your skills, passion, dedication and enthusiasm on is more rewarding to me than money.

I don't fear death because I have spent enough time close enough to it to see it for what it is. Fearing your own death is the greatest waste of time you could ever embark on. Its a game you know you cannot win! That is not the same as having nothing to live for! I love my family, I love flying and I am grateful to be able to continue to have a family and fly for a living.

Congoman & Snakeman you are simply the height of rudeness. Do not presume to tell me or anyone else how reality really is. Why is it that you are so enlightened and I am wrong. Do I say anything that isn't true. Are you not statisically likely to die at some point! You don't have to share my view on life but don't you dare pretend you have the ability to introspect so greatly that you feel the god given right to question the sanity of someone who sees a life of service to thier family and their profession.

People like you are the reason that we have so many managers and not enough leaders in our profession. This isn't just a job, it's a calling to many pilots. Many of us love our jobs and the fact that they pay me do my passion and the thing that I love in life is actually a brucey bonus. We just aren't that badly paid! For all this constant whining and whinging.

As for the bit young comment. If not that far of 50 is a bit young then errrm yep. Chances are though that I was at war somewhere whilst you were hanging your graduation robes up so how's about you get over the fact that this isn't naivety it's worse than that in fact it's your worst nightmare. A pilot who is happy being a pilot and thinks he isnt that badly paid by being in the top 2% of all earners in the UK.

RoyHudd

18th Jun 2015, 23:41

Vortex, think hard and retract your damnable statement. And seek help immediately.

Bindair Dundat

19th Jun 2015, 02:03

In my family's time at EK I came to learn a few things about attitudes in Dubai. There were/are many that are happy enough to have the job. As long as they had the 4x4 in the driveway, a maid in the quarters and a steak on their BBQ, life was/is good. Vortex is this exact specimen. Perfect for the airline but not exactly super intelligent. Blinders on. I could never relate to someone who could not see through the absolute hypocrisy and corruption of, not just the airline, but the entire city. We left. Best thing we ever did. There are other options. You just have to weigh what your priorities are. Getting paid is nice but isn't the yardstick to which I could measure my quality of life - it's a given when you are working. Clean air, living where I choose, normal friends and proper community plus not flying my bag off so I am a sack of **** on my days off means more to me than the so called "tax-free" pay cheque that Vortex so keenly covets.
I totally respect anyone that would walk after being dicked around by the minions in accommodation. Yes Istanbul is a city with real people and not a bull**** caste system where the locals reside on top and do sweet eff all. EK was built on a pretty awesome vision and an enviable location globally. The visionaries have been slowly leaving for awhile and you know who is left…..the glory days are so well and truly over. Keep your eyes open and your loyalties in check for that 'given' that is your paycheque. May not always be so.

SOPS

19th Jun 2015, 02:32

All I will say Vortex...you have a very different outlook on life.

I sincerely hope it's a wind up......

The Outlaw

19th Jun 2015, 04:14

Vortex,

Your reference to dying is quite troublesome. You may need help on a professional level - seriously.

After almost 30 years in this business, I (as do many) do not agree with your sentiments, you'll always fit into your income bracket.

TangoUniform

19th Jun 2015, 07:15

Damn scary, if you ask me. PTSD perhaps? Seriously.

Nikita81

19th Jun 2015, 07:53

I don't fear death because I have spent enough time close enough to it to see it for what it is. Fearing your own death is the greatest waste of time you could ever embark on. Its a game you know you cannot win!I actually understand your words. Fear of death is man's worst enemy - people do much evil out of that fear. Out of any fear, really, but fear of death is the basis of every other fear. And (look! I've started my sentence with "and"!:}) you can't do anything to prevent it, so why not just relax, take care of yourself, your family and the society as much as you can, right? We think in a similar way and I am not worried for your mental health. :) I have couple of problems with your comment, though:

Your lack of faith in wanting to do the right thing for the right value is so jaded from constant cynicsm that you believe that nobody can be altruistic without being mad.True. Many people don't understand this concept. We are selfish by our very nature.

But.

I don't see your altruism. I see your love for your family. That's normal. But I don't see what you do to improve society on a greater level. That is what altruism is, right?

Company abuses people by violating many human and labour rights, which are society's wisest and most altruistic invention (they are one light spot among many stupid things that humanity did). By complying with their wrongdoings you silently give them an approval to continue with it - to abuse more and more people. And even that is fine. You have a choice to comply, because they are more powerful than you and you can't survive without them (Serbs learnt it in a harder way:)) and you have a choice not to. Both of them are fine (opinions on this may vary:)).

And (again!:}) you can think in the way you think, there is nothing wrong with you, by my opinion. On the contrary. I just don't see the point in your debating here. You have chosen your life style, you have your values. Why are you not peaceful with them? Why coming here and explaining yourself? Why involving altruism (when there is no one, at least you didn't say in what way you are an altruist)?

No one is accusing you for complying with company standards, so why you feel the need to accuse those who don't? In your position I would just be happy. :)

anson harris

19th Jun 2015, 10:32

He said, she said... Who cares?
One thing I observed in my time in the desert was the seemingly endless capacity of many pilots to talk complete rubbish to justify their own positions and opinions. It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about what's going on at Emirates. What matters is what you do about it. Complaining about it doesn't help, and I do see where Vortex is coming from as there are many people who absolutely do not subscribe to the narrative that is portrayed on PPRUNE.
I left partly because I can only see the environment becoming worse at EK for pilots, not better. If am honest though, at least 50% of the motivating force was the endless whining and bitching that I was forced to listen to from my colleagues which made going to work a major PITA. I flew with plenty of people who seem to have, at best, anger management issues, and they were all universally negative people that had no concept of their good fortune in life.
I think I'm going to stop reading this now: like SOPS, I have the dogs to walk.

nolimitholdem

19th Jun 2015, 13:33

If am honest though, at least 50% of the motivating force was the endless whining and bitching that I was forced to listen to from my colleagues which made going to work a major PITA. I flew with plenty of people who seem to have, at best, anger management issues, and they were all universally negative people that had no concept of their good fortune in life.

Geez, if vortex thought quitting EK because of hellish accommodation was bad, what does he think of THIS tender muffin, whose main motivation to quit was people who complain? (Seriously? awww.....)

It seems to me that if vortex takes it as a weird point of macho/masochistic/fatalistic pride that his job might kill him, then he must have an even GREATER deal of respect of people who manage to support their families without having to bend over and take it the way he seems to positively relish.

Or is suffering for the privilege of providing part of the fetish? I'm confused.

What a strange and disturbing thread.

anson harris

19th Jun 2015, 13:42

I think you've misunderstood my point. I don't find it upsetting/depressing/offensive or whatever to listen to people complain. I feel genuinely bad for people who haven't identified how amazing life is meant to be. Where is the enjoyment in listening to someone whine incessantly for nine hours about "the chemicals the company has put in the mineral water" etc etc (I'm not making that up)? Once you accept that there is little to be gained from spouting endless negativity (and in fact, much to lose) life becomes a hundred times more pleasant.
There's only one action you can take at Emirates that is going to make a difference: grow a pair of balls and resign. Otherwise: I'd suggest not making yourself miserable over it. Out.

nolimitholdem

19th Jun 2015, 14:10

Actually I don't disagree with you, the atmosphere at EK IS completely toxic - it's kind of the theme in the Middle East forums these days, which you've helped underscore. I guess my point was if you allowed the negativity to overcome your "identification of how amazing life is meant to be", how do you portray that as anything other than capitulation?

If you really think that the source of the massive discontent is mainly trivialities such as you mention, you must have resigned quite some time ago. Of course all companies have their handful of usual suspects whinging about the most banal issues, but the issues at stake here are much more profound and widespread.

I mean, if harry the cod becoming disenchanted doesn't scream End Of Days, what does?

puff m'call

19th Jun 2015, 14:28

outaspace, well done!!!

I read your post in detail and you actually "hit the nail on the head".

I didn't read anything in-between because you will get all sorts of people who end up off topic, but well done, you got it right .:ok:

SOPS

19th Jun 2015, 15:19

The atmosphere is toxic......and now the mineral water is toxic as well?:E

Vortex Thing

19th Jun 2015, 21:47

Well LR3 I think that is where you and I differ. However I see my differing as just that. You have your opinion and I have mine!

So no I'm afraid. It is isn't a wind up. You simply seem to think that time spent with your family is what they appreciate. Well personally I remember my father choosing to take jobs that he preferred over jobs that he should have taken that would have given him and the whole family financial security for life.

Guess what I remember thinking, when I run my family, I will never do that. Then he was a burden on me because of his selfish choices.

Both my wife and I have lost parents who left the family in dire situations financially. My wife's greatest fear is that our children are not secure financially. It is mine too.

So sorry if you 'like/want/need' time with your family OVER providing. That is your choice of path. Mine is duty, service and doing the job over providing for them. MY needs to spend time or even their needs are always 2nd.

After over 20 yrs in the business. I see people pretend to be happy on what they earn, you call that getting by on what you earn. I see people get by and say oh its ok we'll fit into this income bracket. That works fine until your children have to go to some god awful school and have thier entire futures limited by thier parents need as opposed to thier abilities!

It is not a case of not caring about me. It is about caring about me WHEN they are sorted. It really isnt that complicated. Just because you think you are important doesnt mean you are!

Had it occured to you that perhaps you are the ones trolling/saying your own opinion! It isn't worrying at all!

Two above said they worried about me, I am the one who runs back into a burning aircraft because doing the right thing is more important than me. I am the one who will fght for you and me to the end and who will do it right regardless of the cost to me. I'd rather fly with that than you out there who think you are important. You see I'll come back for you regardless of the cost to me as death and danger are what I'm paid for. You are the ones who do not seem to undertand your duty not me!!

fliion

19th Jun 2015, 22:04

After reading above ...the only thing that comes to mind is:

1-800-dial-a-psych

f.

Vortex Thing

19th Jun 2015, 22:19

Thank you Nikita in public and to the 17 so far who PMd me to support my view.

Nikita first. My altruism is that I give back to the aviation community regardless. I just enjoy it! So junior pilots benefit and some hopefully take my enthusiasm as my legacy. Greater love hath no man......

Nolimit I don't relish. I accept as a necessary evil. Again the two differ substantially!

Nikita I dont accept the companys abuse I simply fight the batttles I can. If / when place in a position to change it. I shall and will. Not for me but for my brothers in arms.

Im rxplaing only as a medium for others. Not to recruit or engender purely as I love aviation and this is a public forum. I am opening ip my view for debate not because I doubt it or neeed validation because it needed debating in this forum and I like to give the wannabees and newbies another viewpoint.

Capitulation does not equal agreement! I just provide and they agree or not.

Vortex Thing

19th Jun 2015, 22:23

Yes flion you should! Be aus you can't believe that anyone other than you has another view.

"I am not comfortable with your view that only one viewpoint can exist on a pilots forum!"

Nikita81

20th Jun 2015, 03:44

I am opening ip my view for debate not because I doubt it or neeed validation because it needed debating in this forum and I like to give the wannabees and newbies another viewpoint.

Given the fact that you like to be an altruist, this is not a particularly good idea. What if somebody reads your point of view, accepts the contract with EK, comes to Dubai and starts to feel depressed, tired, abused and trapped?

It's always better and more altruistic to warn people on objective dangers and then let them choose than to just impose your subject point of view without telling them what they can expect in terms of working conditions and management treatment, don't you think?:)

SOPS

20th Jun 2015, 04:01

Death and danger is what you are paid for...seriously???????

I thiought avoiding death and danger is what you are paid for.

If you are really a TRE, I seriously hope you are noy telling new ( or for that matter any) trainees....'Death and danger is what we are paid for son '

You are an airline pilot for goodness sake...not 007.

Nikita81

20th Jun 2015, 04:12

You are an airline pilot for goodness sake...not 007.

:}

You see, Vortex, thanking me in public "for supporting you" is a pure emotional manipulation because I didn't "support" you (support in what?? why do you need a support? are you fighting against something? did you present a point of view different than extremely egocentric one - "I have to feed my family"?), I just made it clear that I understood some of your statements which others found disturbing.:)

MosEisley

20th Jun 2015, 04:38

Vortex,

If anything you've said it's true you should be trying to get a job at Hainan, living in China and making 21.5k per month. If you aren't actively pursuing that then all you've said is bs.

Bowwing

20th Jun 2015, 05:23

Vortex,

Just to confirm..... because you seem to be quite 'troll like' in your clever avoidance of correcting the incorrect assumptions made by others in this forum..

Are you an EK pilot?

Are you Right or Left seat?

B

Snake man

20th Jun 2015, 06:23

No, no..wait a second...
All the talk of death, destruction, self sacrifice, coming back to rescue people..
Are you a fireman, Vortex?

glofish

20th Jun 2015, 06:34

Vortex, you are a typical example of the Helsinki Syndrome :

inattentional blindness to the negative in order to achieve some perceived benefit

Life has more to offer than death

Get help!

Stone_cold

20th Jun 2015, 06:48

Boww.. I believe he is Fly Dubai . Capt

Vortex Thing

20th Jun 2015, 09:11

Boww - I'm not avoiding anything. You ask me a question and it fits the bounds of the forum then I'll happily answer it. What Stone cold said is correct.

Glo - due diligence! Read what I have actually said not what you think I said. Money and family security are not a perceived benefit they are very real and tangible benefits.

MosE - That is not as far away a possibilty as you may think. It is one of the options I am looking at.

Nikita - Not emotion. I don't do those much. Just fact. How can wanting to feed your family at whatever cost to yourelf be egocentric? Surely it is the opposite.
Re the newbies. If one joins and if one feels depressed, tired, trapped, abused then they either overcome their environemtn and become stronger, remove themselves from the environ if unable to overcome or inevitably they will break. Isn't that just basic stress management?

Sink or swim basically. Life doesn't care if you can handle it or feel it is fair. Results are results, cash is cash and talking the talk is nice but we all know that walking the walk is more important.

Snake man - why don't you ask your wife

SOPs - Yes of course death and danger are PART of what we are paid for. It is. What is the cabin crews primary role is it getting em out in 90 secs or tea and coffee. I remember officers who were at the academy with me who didn't get that they were simply there as the motto says to 'Serve to lead'

Doctors try to save life but accept tha patients die. Lawyers try and win cases but loose some. Teachers try and teach their students but do not always succeed. Pilots avoid death and danger by good application of thier skills drills and your name! However when things go wrong and Murphy's law says statisitcally that they will you have to choose. So you sign up for it but you are expected to do your duty if it comes to it.

Unless you are an Italian Ships Captain that is!

I also never said I was a TRE, not there yet. I said being one is more valuable than material things to me. I was trying to explain my value scale to further help those who canot fully see the my viewpoint. Doesn't mean they have to agree just understand what I am saying and choose to digest or ignore.

This is after all a forum where we should be able to respectfully state our opinions. Unless you are snake man of course.

Snake man you trying to engage in a battle of wits is reminiscent of taking a bayonet to a tank battle you are not suitably equipped.

Nikita81

20th Jun 2015, 10:40

I don't do those much.

Ah, there is a kind of altruism which doesn't involve love? :} Ok.

How can wanting to feed your family at whatever cost to yourelf be egocentric?

Simple. It's your family and you benefit from it.

If one joins and if one feels depressed, tired, trapped, abused then they either overcome their environemtn and become stronger, remove themselves from the environ if unable to overcome or inevitably they will break. Isn't that just basic stress management?

It's an awful position to consciously put one human being in. Are you sure you are an altruist? :)

Ilyushin76

20th Jun 2015, 20:26

Thank you Vortex for highlighting the importance of choices and the consequences those choices bring forth. I for one respect your choice of placing your career above everything. :cool:

Ilyushin76

20th Jun 2015, 20:27

I mean it in a good way. :ok:

harry the cod

20th Jun 2015, 21:01

Vortex

Most, if not all of us, have made sacrifices to help our families live a better life. We witness the extreme side of that argument every day when we see Indian/Bangladeshi men working 12 hour days, 6 days a week in 40 degree plus heat for $200 a month. How they manage to send home half of that to feed their families is a minor miracle but a miracle their families are no doubt grateful for. We are, whether we like it or not, merely doing the same thing, only considerably higher up the food chain. Our salaries, despite what some would like to portray on these forums, is in fact bloody good.

However, while I accept your desire to provide a high standard of support to those around you, just ask yourself one question. If you drop dead tomorrow from your continuous hard work, who will be there to shed a tear over your coffin as it's lowered into the Earth. Not your bosses and certainly not their bosses. Your demise will have lasted a mere few seconds in their thoughts as they continue to entertain clients and Russian girls every weekend on that huge yacht you often see moored out from the Marina. The same yacht and lifestyle you helped provide for while your own family is left devastated.

Whilst your widow may well thank you for the insurance payout, your children will certainly not. Don't look back in 20 years from now and regret missing the one and only opportunity you have to be with the most valuable asset in your life. Them.

Money provides material wealth. Health and happiness provide a wealth that is priceless.

'The clock of life is wound but once
And no man has the power
To tell just when that clock will stop
At late or early hour.

Now is the only time we have
So live, love and toil with will
Place no faith in tomorrow
For the clock may then be still!'

Harry

Justmarried

21st Jun 2015, 09:30

Very wise words, and they are so true....

All the money in the world cannot replace the smile of your children when you come home from a long trip..

Enjoy life, it's the only one we have

TangoUniform

21st Jun 2015, 20:55

Damn nice post, Harry. :ok:

furbpilot

21st Jun 2015, 21:18

Harry very wise words. Unfortunately there is a part of this category that seems perfectly fitted to be screwed and taken away the best part of their life in exchange for simple monetary benefit. I would call it a background or cultural deficit . It makes people easy prays as they have no other values. They normally understand when is too late...

Vortex Thing

22nd Jun 2015, 10:26

Those of you posting platitudes to Harry's post. Miss the point. You make it seem like you can have both! I mostly agree with Harry's sentiment.

No one is saying they don't want to see their children's smiles. No one doesn't want to see their family. It is simply that IF AND ONLY IF you have to choose between having ONE or the other....

Then the choice HAS to be money IMHO as all the love, smiles and hugs in the world will not suffice when you parents have sent you to a rubbish school, and you are at Scunthorpe Polytechnic reading Underwaterbasketweavology.

WANT = Something that you have when the basics have been covered
NEED = The basics

Look up Maslow!

No one is saying not to spend time, love , nurture, family, etc, etc it is simply the case that I am saying it is higher up the pyramid than cold hard cash and to that end it is more important.

furbpilot's implication is that obviously myself and anyone who thinks like me is incorrect and will see the error of our ways later in life. How arrogant is that!!!

If he had said, 'Well I see his point and I disagree.' Then I could give him some leeway but like I said before anyone who would rather work for THY and live in IST than DXB is never going to be the sort of person reasonable enough to admit that this is a big arse planet and guess what we are all different in our wants and needs.

Otherwise everyone you know would go skiing and no one would go climbing or everyone would aspire to be a pilot or want the same wife. They don't. SO newsflash some people work 3 jobs to send their kids to private schools some who are millionaires send their kids to the local state school.

I would want to be as large a part of my family's life as possible but that is a very distant 2nd want to giving them the correct start in life, the things that they need and the money that they need to get there.

I don't come first. It really isn't that hard a concept. That is unless you have no sense of duty and think that your needs are more important than your family's real needs not wants.

what-to-do

22nd Jun 2015, 11:20

Would you also go into debt to achieve this?

Trader

22nd Jun 2015, 12:14

I think Harry was implying that BALANCE is important. I want an income to support my family and I want to be there WITH them as well.

So I understand both Vortex's point and Harry's argument.

There is a spectrum that ranges from all work/no life or time to no work/all time and each person and family has a different point on that line that is acceptable and appropriate.

The problem with EK, in mine and many others peoples opinion, is that EK has 'stolen' that balance. The increased our flying by almost 20% with no compensation. Even if they were to pay us for that time, for me, I would prefer to fly 80 hours and not earn the overtime. For me the, that it is where the balance between life and work exists. Others may well be happy working 90 plus hours a month for the OT. Of course, we are working those hours for NO overtime which makes the situation even worse.

All of this of course overshadows the main point and that is that 90 hours plus a month of the type of flying EK does is simply dangerous. It is not sustainable. Most pilots can see that and feel it. A few newer captains have said to me that they seem to be handling it but they have been flying those hours only for a year. Give it a few more and we will see!

They are pushing EVERY department to the breaking point and I fear that it will soon break and we are in a business that when it does break that people may well die.