3 man to Europe

[cannot]

AT has been in her position for a few months now, it would appear that the honeymoon is well and truly over . They have revealed their true intent and want 3 man to FRA and LHR on SELECTED flights only
That will be the beginning . As sure as the sun rises in the east they will be back for more in a few short months , or there will be an amendment to RP granting them the freedom to make any European flight 3 man due to unforeseen circumstances.

This is the problem when you have a DFO who has never flown an aircraft , goes to bed every night at a regular time , gets a good nights sleep and works during the day . She has absolutely no concept of the effects of accumulative sometimes crippling fatigue that we live with month after month .
To the best of my knowledge , I don't think she has ever tried to understand rostering patterns and the fatigue they generate .

So here is a challenge . Pick a three week period , You sit in the J/S on every flight you take . You may sleep when the relief FO has their rest period ,all other times you are to be awake and working. Flights are to be conducted on East and West ULH Patterns and in that 3 weeks you are to complete a minimum of 90 hours
Then let's see how tired you become and how fatigue affects your judgement bearing in mind that this is only for 3 weeks not years
Then we can resume negotiations on RP

[Bangaluru]

Ever heard of controlled rest? They're counting on it.. So we use it, put in ASRs and let the smart people deal with the consequences. Yes, it reduces our safety factor slightly... We accept that or take or desk job. Such is the way of the world. Otherwise one is urinating against the prevailing breeze.

[cannot]

You want to use controlled rest on Y1 . I don't

[schnook]

She's just doing what she's told.

[Arfur Dent]

Absolutely "Cathay' way to solve a crewing problem. That's the hub of it.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Day time flights if both ways HKG time could be some justification. At night - not good

[Good Business Sense]

Whose "day time"???

[Trafalgar]

What a complete farce. We already have some of the most fatiguing rostering practices in the industry, and AT seems to think that making them worse is a clever idea. Well, I for one have had enough. Play that game and I will do everything in my power to 'mitigate' those practices, and manage my own lifestyle accordingly. Secondly, they will see themselves saving about at least 15% on crewing costs if they migrate to 3-man on many long haul flights. In other words, their 4% pay 'offer' is actually a pay cut when you factor in our increased productivity. To the AOA, STOP (!!) talking to these people, and instead focus all your efforts on a public relations campaign highlighting the appalling safety aspects of this company's policies. Tell CX that we are ramping up industrial action up to and including a work stoppage. I don't care anymore. There is NO career left here if we don't stop them now.

[kenfoggo]

Very worrying times. There is a lethal , toxic combination of lowering experience and increasing fatigue on the flight deck. Expect no protection from either the regulator or the company- neither have to work under these practises. The inevitable consequence of this trend will be an incident resulting in harm to pilots and passengers. If you think that you will be fatigued on a flight, then do not operate it. You have a duty of care to yourself, your licence and the travelling public.

[Trafalgar]

Kenfoggo. You are of course correct in saying we shouldn't operate if fatigued, but more importantly, we MUST stop them replacing RP's with 'company policy'. If we allow our already pathetic protections to be washed away, they will literally burn each of us out, and then throw us away when we can no longer physically cope with the job. In all the years i've been here, I have never felt quite motivated enough to down tools. Now, I realise that that is probably the ONLY thing we should be planning on. They will NOT stop attacking us until we finally say enough, and by saying enough, I mean crippling the operation until they see sense. I am NOT voting for the fake pay raise, and I am not giving in until they finally start treating us with respect. Usually the only way to gain respect is through strength and credibility. We can only demonstrate that by an absolutist view of CC. To all of you who are still sitting on the fence, what will it finally take to make your realise that your very career is at stake. If we don't win this battle, there will not be a career worth keeping here. It will all be worthless in the long term. You will waste whatever further years you desperately try hanging onto. Either fight to the death now, or pack up and go home and start a career with an airline that will properly respect you over the years you dedicate to them. This bunch are contemptible, and we must stop them in their tracks now. Before it's too late. Vote NO on the pay 'raise' :yuk: and throw AT's hollow words right back at her.

[CISTRS]

Gentlemen,
Will you please learn from your colleagues in Cabin Crew, and get professional with your grievances?
Get professional legal and PR advice. Use the Labour Department as an intermediary, as FAU have done.
Define the issues. Address them individually. Have a strategy.
Set a timescale for agreement or resolution.
Contract Compliance should be the norm in any employment relationship. Very seldom does an employer go beyond his contractual obligations in remunerating you for your contribution to his business.
Sign on as rostered. Use whatever sanctions you can to leverage your position. Given issues of schedule delays, resulting fatigue, stress, sickness potentially affecting both Flight Crew and Cabin Crew, this gives the Captain considerable scope and ultimate total responsibility for the safety of the flight. Commander’s Discretion should seldom be used to extend duties.
Best wishes, as ever.

[GMEDX]

I don't know about other airlines but I do know that BA and VS do three man to LHR. So what is the problem with CX doing it too?

[swh]

GMEDX

BA/VS have a 48/72 hours down route between sectors.

CX do it 4 crew with a short stay, normally around 20 hours in the hotel before returning. 3 crew flights will miss a sleep during the sector, and then the time down route will be too short to recover from that missed sleep, let alone then next sleep.

Its an accountants dream, until all the crew start going sick, humans cannot sustain that, that is why BA/VS have the longer down route stay.

[goingdown]

Same at AF/KLM. If CX think that for one second we can do 3 man with short layover, me think sickness rate will go through the roof DOWN ROUTE!

[GMEDX]

Thanks for the explanation swh. It makes more sense now.

[Threethirty]

My understanding is that CX would have to give us 48 hours in the hotel. This would seem to negate the man power savings from the resultant 3 crew operations, so it seems to me like a huge waste of time.

[Flying Clog]

Correct.

They're just kicking the can down the road and it's going to prove a massive own goal in the end :ugh:

[Max Reheat]

Flying Clog,

Other than for the fact that BA and VS make it work!

[geh065]

My understanding is that CX would have to give us 48 hours in the hotel. This would seem to negate the man power savings from the resultant 3 crew operations, so it seems to me like a huge waste of time.

If they do it to based crews, they can roster 3-crew with little rostering change. Many based crews have a EXB in HKG anyway. In LHR, S/Os have been getting longer patterns than Captains and F/Os most of the time so they are already meeting the requirement of the 3-man crew. I do not think it is a coincidence that the two cities mentionned for the 3-man crew are the only two European cities with bases.

[LRpilot]

European airlines don't fly only eastbound sectors, you have the chance to mitigate fatigue with different patterns.......

[sorvad]

swh

'CX do it 4 crew with a short stay, normally around 20 hours in the hotel before returning'

.....errrrm, no we don't, it's almost always at least 30 hours and normally longer

LRpilot

'European airlines don't fly only eastbound sectors, you have the chance to mitigate fatigue with different patterns.......'

....what a complete load of nonsense

[Trafalgar]

Max Reheat: I will assume you were bored and were simply intending to wind people up with your comment. BA and VS have FAR better fatigue mitigation rules that we do. There are longer layovers, and proper rest once back home. They also offer far more in way of options (at least in the case of BA) to get a break from long haul, with an extensive short/medium haul fleet to bid onto if needing a break. Sure, let's talk 3-man in CX, but ONLY if it comes with the proper 1st world work rules, pay and benefits. It's bad enough that SO's are being screwed on housing, now the company wants to take away what little comfort they have on the job as well.

[oriental flyer]

Sorvad,

Just a correction . The first LHR flight and the Sunday MAN flight have a 24 hour layover at the port . Some of the night flights have a longer slip

But if there are any delays departing HK as seen in the recent weeks the crews will be out of hours very quickly

[sorvad]

Point taken oriental flyer.....I'm referring more to Europe based crew...can't think of any pattern I've done recently that's had any less than 30 hrs rest...used to be a bit of an issue with the 253 and physiological rest but haven't experienced that lately

[Yonosoy Marinero]

ASR-F forms are conveniently located in the stationary wallet inside the cockpit.
A fillable PDF version is also available for download on the appropriate website.

And now, a few words from the gospel of OPS-A 11.9.1:

Thou shalt submit an ASR-F to proactively report a fatigue risk, and thou art encourageth to submit same if thou hast found thyself guilty of exercising the sin of controlled-rest. Amen.

[Steve the Pirate]

Either fight to the death now, or pack up and go home and start a career with an airline that will properly respect you over the years you dedicate to them.

Could you give us an idea which airlines you're referring to and how you can be so sure that these airlines will supposedly continue to "properly respect you over the years you dedicate to them"?

Also you say:

It's bad enough that SO's are being screwed on housing, now the company wants to take away what little comfort they have on the job as well.

Doesn't OM-A 7.1.7.2 apply in the 3 man context - or is that what you're referring to?

STP

[Dan Winterland]

ANO (HK) Article 55: Fatigue of crew-responsibilities of crew.

(1) A person shall not act as a member of the crew of an aircraft to which this Article applies if he knows or reasonably suspects that he is suffering from, or, having regard to the circumstances of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.

[Pucka]

Capitulate and fly 3 man..you'll never get a BA style roster..it'll be a 28 HR layover..back with 3 days off and a bag of compressed regionals at the back of a fatigue clock..don't fight this one and its game over...3 man JFK?!!!..it's sickening the way this job has panned out..

[Ben revoD]

A good number of flights this spring were forced to be operated 3 man against RPs. So the notion of a phased and planned introduction of 3 man Europe flights is a joke. I can guarantee that flights will operate 3 man willy-nilly as they run out of crew and have to cobble together a plan. That's one of the things that has to be considered when comparing CX with other airlines. A stable roster with a solid rest and recovery plan is one thing, CX's rostering mess adds another dimension entirely.

The potential for delays and cancellations is also high. With 4 man ops the FDP is 18hrs and the crew get on and divide up the rest in some sensible fashion. Not so with 3 man ops. It's not a case of 3 pilots, 15hr FDP, and get on with it. A basic FDP has to be extended by inflight rest. If the required FDP is 14hr30 and all three pilits have a basic FDP available of 13hrs, all well and good. A small delay can be accomodated and remain legal. Throw in some roster disruption with one crew member turning up with a basic FDP of 11hrs or 11hr30 and life starts to get complicated, tiring, and very soon illegal. One pilot may need 6hrs rest, another 3hrs, and the third may have to be burned out to achieve this. The potential for extreme fatigue is high, especially for those FOs who find themselves being burned out.

I don't want 3 man long range ops as I'm concerned it might kill me. However, I can see how it may be workable if there is the flexibility to have a sensible rest plan, the roster is stable, and there is decent recovery period (5/4/3?). Unfortunately CX doesn't do sensible, stable or decent.

[Twiglet1]

Wasn't it Air New Zealand that cut their London layovers down (based on science than shopping time)
Never easy to talk fatigue science and industrial relations, never a good mix

[Shep69]

And therein is the problem.

NO ONE is adverse to talking 3-man and developing sensible (dare I say it) RPs to deal with it, mitigate fatigue, work out reasonable economics, and figure a coherent way to implement it which isn't dangerous. What we are seeing with the 'limited' operations is the wedge approach.

But what's the track history here ?

The FIRST THING the company did when they found themselves short is throw the RPs out the window. And has been said attempt to willy nilly cobble together crews (as it's notorious for doing in times of stress as it is). When the fatigue mitigation procedures, RPs, and sensibility became too difficult, the company simply turned its back on it. Not only this, but it resorted to a form of bastardized continuous reserve windows which only makes the situation worse. Plugging short term holes, burning duty hours, and inadvertently timing people out with no rhyme or reason. Rather than seeking solutions which benefit everyone.

You can ask anyone what rostering is like. Unstable is a polite term. Chaotic is better with hair brained schemes to work around and exploit loopholes in the base FTLs as it is. Not only is it a big deal in terms of fatigue, it's inefficient as well. There is no long term planning or strategy and what's worse it doesn't need to be like this. It hurts everyone.

[Max Reheat]

Trafalgar:
Not at all; but it is necessary, every now and then, to try to add a little realism to the incessant, mindless ranting that frequents these pages!
I am as equally anti 3-man ULR as you; however, what I am certain of is that CX will change the rostering (dare I say it -PRACTICES) that it empolys to accommodate the reduced crewing. They are acutely aware of the impact down-route sickness would have on the operation.
Who is to say that we would not find rostering similar to BA/VS?
You are however, correct in your assertions about 5 year fleet swaps, though of my mates in BA, I don't see too many bidding to the A320 from the A380/744, even with 3 man ULR!!!!
But if you are so adamant that being able to swap fleet is a good thing, why don't you petition Anna and the board to fully incorporate KA into CX and then you could have a stab at your 'breaks' periodically.

[Dan Winterland]

Who is to say that we would not find rostering similar to BA/VS?

The UK CAA FTLs limit their layover to a minimum of 48 hours. It's not because of kindness from the companies. The HK FTLs allow 3 Crew ULH with a 24 layover, so it will happen.

[Flying Clog]

Well in that case Dan, they can get stuffed.. wankers!

3 man, no flipping way.

[Algol]

You guys are taking 'industrial action' aren't you?
What do you expect? Kisses and hugs?

[Captn_Kirk]

Maybe it's time we are given another survey to rate our dear managers.

Because the last survey and the "survey after the survey" had such a nice outcome.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Whose "day time"???
Who else, The Pilots......:\

[Mr Angry from Purley]

The UK CAA FTLs limit their layover to a minimum of 48 hours. It's not because of kindness from the companies. The HK FTLs allow 3 Crew ULH with a 24 layover, so it will happen.

Dan - not sure CAP371 has that. More likely a combo of industrial / common sense and these days fatigue risk driven. Under EASA anything is up for grabs but certainly in the UK airlines are having to support what trip combo's they do with FRM etc etc.

[main_dog]

Mr. Purley, keep in mind we have pilots based in HKG but also UK, Germany, USA, Canada, Aus, NZ... so again, who's daytime? ;)

[Good Business Sense]

Is the flight crewed by three "pilots" on three different time zones hence three different "day times" ?

that work for you ...

[Good Business Sense]

Is the flight crewed by three "pilots" on three different time zones hence three different "day times" ?

that work for you ...:ugh::ugh:

[Steve the Pirate]

@Trafalgar

Any chance you might answer the questions I posed in my post #26? I think you might be doing many people a great service if you were to at least answer the first question.

STP

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Is the flight crewed by three "pilots" on three different time zones hence three different "day times"

Why complicate the matter, I assumed the main base was HKG so based Pilots acclimatised to HKG local.
Next argument....
:\

[4engines4longhaul]

Here at VS the 48hour layover is more as a result of our scheduling agreement than it is because of CAA ftl's

We also get 3 clear days free of duty afterwards back at base

[raven11]

If there is anything I like less than 3 man long haul...it's placing the RPs into the Ops A, as amendable Company policy....

Hmmm, and the cabin crew flooded the street outside Cathay City when the lunch allowance in Melbourne was reduced....

Let's recap, shall we:
Free O days, free A days, free reserve, no 5/4/3 protection, indefinite (and free) hold at a hotel prior to engaging in long haul ops, two second officers on a 4 man crew, FTLs being used as rostering performance targets, the assumption that discretion will always be utilized...I'm sure I've left something out....oh, our lunch allowance in Melbourne was reduced.

[Captn_Kirk]

What are they saving with 3-man compared to 4-man?
Not even hotel nights, as we will need 48h in the hotel instead of 24h.

They're only saving on an SO. (The lowest paid man)

If it's a problem of crew numbers, how come they aren't able to recruit SOs fast enough?
Because they decided not to pay expat conditions anymore a few years ago. It takes a year to train a new cadet SO through Adelaide. And it takes 80 sectors to upgrade them to FO.
We shouldn't bear the weight of their incompetence.

Solution: restore a proper housing package, and recruit DESO again.
2 months training now, 40 sectors (instead of 100) when they upgrade to JFO and a much safer airline in the long term (priceless).

[Pucka]

3 man..min rest..16-24 hrs..live the dream people

[Captn_Kirk]

The Rest Period following a Scheduled LRO FDP greater than 13 hours where 3 pilots are boarded will include 2 consecutive Sleep Opportunities in accordance with 7.1.21.3.A.b or 7.1.21.3.B.b and will not be less than 34 hours.


From the AFTL

[Pucka]

Great freaking joy..dream on

[Will fly for Cash]

Personally, I welcome minimum rest. I'm rostered to be home 9 days (and nights) this month, largely due to extended "rest" elsewhere. Since our sh!tty COS doesn't give us any credit/rigs for TAFB, there's no penalty to the company for inefficiency (as any freighter pilot will certainly acknowledge). Thankfully I'm not a commuter.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

From the AFTL

Except that, from HKG, FRA is always under 13 hours and LHR often is.
And that doesn't help the based guys as their outbound leg is always less than 13 hours.

The target is the based pilots. They're the ones that will be able to do minimum rest in HKG all the time, even if the inbound leg is 13+. That's why only LHR and FRA are targeted for 3 man screw, and not MXP, FCO, ZRH, MAN, CDG or AMS...

Personally, I welcome minimum rest.

So you're happy to do the same patterns on even less rest than what you already had before and for the same money?

Please go see AT immediately to collect your medal.

[Captn_Kirk]

It's not sector time, it's duty time. But I agree, they will most probably use based guys only because the 2 nights after their longer return flight will be included in their normal rest period.

[Flying Clog]

Because of their far superior rostering practices.. :{

[Threethirty]

As 4enginesforLongHaul said:

Here at VS the 48hour layover is more as a result of our scheduling agreement than it is because of CAA ftl's

We also get 3 clear days free of duty afterwards back at base

In other words the BALPA reps agreed it with the company.

[Avinthenews]

You're kidding yourself or haven't been here long enough if you don't realise this is China now with even more devoted civil servants in the CAD.

The future will be CN / FO / SO with minimum rest down route.

It will be whittled away with "not normally" "roster disruption" new patterns, new destinations will start with it diluting current patterns and any other permutations required until it's the new norm. It's only illegal until you rewrite the words to make it legal.

[profo]

For now, it is only FRA and LHR. With Copenhagen, Dusseldorf and Barcelona all strongly rumoured to be early A-350 destinations, do you think they will be 4-man, or will follow the 'newly acceptable' 3-man crewing precedent....

[Shep69]

Yup. Whatever they can get away with in 3 man on limited routes will quickly be used as precedent to apply it everywhere else. Without regard to crew composition, body clock, real rest, anything. Just like everything else that has been done in the past to the rosters.

The proverbial camel's toes under the tent approach.

[kenfoggo]

Your concerns are misplaced - or whatever else was said.

[VR-HFX]

It truly makes me king of cynics corner to say this but the only path to change is via the average adjuster, a smoking hole and 350 body bags.:sad:

[The Management]

It will never happen to us. We are "The CPG" and will always be the best in the transportation business in the air and on the water.

We always land in Typhoon conditions when other airlines have stopped operation, we land in heavy rain when most airlines go-around and/or divert. We have the best conditions of service in the world attracting the most highly experienced pilots in the world.

It cannot happen to us, we are just too good.

And when it does, the whole blame will be on the Captain and Crew.

We in “The CPG” Management team operate with impunity.

To Our Management Bonus,
The Management.

[ozziekiwi]

Sorry guys, slightly off topic I know, but just curious how many
Flight Deck crew op HKG/AKL/HKG normally ??


Thanks in advance

[Avinthenews]

If you want to realise how good CX has got it you only have to see what HSBC is doing, moving its headquarters to Hong Kong, where it can avoid those pesky first world regulations and fines and be totally unscrupulous just like CX.

[routetuner]

HSBC moving! I believe they are from Hong Kong! And job losses are from other countries and not Hong Kong

[routetuner]

We originally operated 3 pilots and 2 engineers to Europe, however we had 2 nights off over there too so we got to do a lot more- still tiring though.

[raven11]

Route tuner,
And 5/4/3 on our return to HKG....and 72 hours per month....

[Steve the Pirate]

We originally operated 3 pilots and 2 engineers to Europe, however we had 2 nights off over there too so we got to do a lot more- still tiring though.

Surely you mean we got to rest a lot more?

STP

[SloppyJoe]

Surely you mean we got to rest a lot more?

Well it is actually all related. You get to LHR at 6am on a 24hr layover, sleep for a couple of hours then get up so you can try to sleep in the evening prior to the early wakeup. Go for a late lunch, maybe go into town to try to stay awake, then have a meal and try to sleep.

A 48 hr layover arriving at the same time, maybe sleep for a bit longer on arrival, get up go into town, have a meal and a few drinks, go to sleep and wake up when you wake up, next day is yours. Go do stuff, stay busy, visit friends or family, get an early night that is now more normal due to already being on that time zone for 30hrs.

Of course you get more rest but you also get more time to do things, it is about being able to actually plan your rest rather than having to try to force sleep and wake ups on a 24hr layover.

[raven11]

We're not machines....our rosters have reached saturation....they have been manipulated over time so that, these days, all we do is fly, min-rest, fly, min-rest, fly!

Having 48 hours off duty following a long haul pattern should be a no brainer. It is for the cabin crew, it is for all the other first world carriers, why not us?
Following a long haul flight, the aim should not be on resting for 18 hours, reboard the airplane, fly another grueling long haul pattern home, and be quickly rostered to fly another trip! Most certainly not with only 3 pilots!!

We need hard protections built into the rostering practices. Recently, I flew a split duty pattern and was reminded, once again, by the cabin crew that they are obligated to receive a mandatory day off following the split duty. I guess we pilots must be immune to fatigue, so we're not entitled to this.

Why are there so many built in protections for the cabin crew rosters, and the other first world carriers, yet none, NONE, for the pilots at Cathay. Maybe someone could ask the president of IATA this question?

Over time, our good nature (and naiveté on the part of our union) has given way to the removal of virtually all the previously built in protections....these protections used to exist, iron clad, in our rostering practices. This is madness and needs correcting.

[Sqwak7700]

Why are there so many built in protections for the cabin crew rosters, and the other first world carriers, yet none, NONE, for the pilots at Cathay. Maybe someone could ask the president of IATA this question?


Has absolutely F-all to do with IATA. It is directly proportional to the employee group's resolve and unity. It is time that all of US take responsibility for what WE have allowed to happen here. Years of weak industrial mentality and lazy pilots has gotten us here.

Management needs to be woken up, but this will only happen when we have shown them it is the only option by being united and strong. And we can't just keep the current industrial climate until we achieve our goals, otherwise we will find ourselves in the same place 10 years from now having the same conversation. We must maintain that respect throughout to prevent the constant rot from creeping in.

Any fight you step away from makes them stronger. That is why the cabin crew achieved their most recent goals in LESS THAN A WEEK, and why we are suffering crawling territory back - they are too accustomed to us cowering away from fights. The cabin crew put up a fight and they bring in a lot of muscle.

So time to start doing everything you can to help. Don't wait for the AOA to ask you. Sit back and do your job, and only your job. Use your super jokers liberally, and make sure you follow all Part A regs. It is that easy.

:ok:

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Has absolutely F-all to do with IATA.

Maybe not, but it has a lot to do with its president...

[FERetd]

Sloppy Joe Quote :-"You get to LHR at 6am on a 24hr layover"

I seem to remember that rostering practices used to state that rest periods of between 18 and 30 hours were to be avoided whenever possible.

It didn't work on the Classic freighters 15 years ago!

[SloppyJoe]

If it is not a hard rule it will not be followed if it costs more. Think there are 4 flights a day to SYD, every one of those has a layover in the 18-30hr range.

The rule (if you can call it that) is still there, written in the same language that they ignore.

[BuzzBox]

Think there are 4 flights a day to SYD, every one of those has a layover in the 18-30hr range.

Umm, the 18-30 hour rule only applies where the crew member is unacclimatised. Not sure how a HKG based crew member become unacclimatised during a flight to SYD when the maximum time difference between HKG and SYD is only 3 hours??

[main_dog]

Umm, the 18-30 hour rule only applies where the crew member is unacclimatised.

Actually, avoiding rest periods between 18 and 30 hours is in the FTL general section regarding the Operator's Responsabilities and so applies whether Acclimatised or not:

7.1.3.4. Factors to be considered when assigning Duties will include: [omissis]
B. Avoiding scheduling Rest Periods of between 18 and 30 hours duration except when rest is physiologically based

Obviously, our rosters make a mockery of this company responsibility. :(

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Chaps

The 18-30hr rest was an extract from UK CAP371 and aimed at UK airlines operating UK-Florida-UK day/night rotations. Likewise Airlines also ignored it. It could be argued that it was aimed at switching from nights to lates to earlies or vv but that was a consequence of the limitations of CAP371 not sensible rostering.
There is an argument that 18-30 night / day rotations are more manageable as highlighted by Sloopy Joe's earlier post. No one doubt's the Night rotation is tough but the day rotation allows Pilots to commence the recovery in the Companies time rather than there own.
The current plight for you Pilots (either of high or low morale) is that a lot of airlines are using the Boeing Alertness Model to check roster fatigue levels. It's well known that this is a "one size fits all" application and not airline specific. Each airline as we know is individually different in many ways. The other issue is Crewing Staff (love them or hate them) are now moving towards "I.T. systems Officers" where black is black and white is white and there is no grey (or perhaps even Red, Green or Orange if its a yes or a no)
You only have to look at Middle Eastern Airlines now - most require University degree's to get into the job, someone with a degree in common sense or a University of Life has no chance (I appreciate this might be Government driven also)
That might have been a rant, I should have been a Pilot.....

[sirhcttarp]

The company proposals are not worth the paper it's written on.

The proposed RPs suggest Requests are in seniority order, yada yada yada... and Lifestyle will be satisfied in seniority order, yada yada yada...

but the company can throw in curve balls such that....

1. if in that month, you have a training event i.e. a random sim, rtpc, linecheck ground school, then your request could be ignored
2. if in that month, you have leave, and your productivity is below average, your request could be ignored
3. if in that month your dog has a birthday, your request could be ignored.

Completely farcical...

If they want an agreement, they have to nail down the language and make satisfying requests and lifestyle award based on SENIORITY ONLY with no other considerations.

[AQIS Boigu]

Thanks to RH's localization policy (ie. HKPA) most SOs are so %$#&ing useless these days I rather fly 3 man - no wonder when you only pay half the coin.

[cannot]

AQIS
that's a bit harsh , some of the SOs that I have flown with have been very good Admittedly there are a few that aren't but that could apply to all ranks
Unfortunately there is no longer the passion for flying from a number of the Y generation that most of us had
Instead It has just become a job and the company is getting exactly what it's paying for