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Speedwinner
25th May 2015, 11:15
Hi folks,

We do 97% of the takeoffs with flaps 1+f. So why don't we retract the flaps after landing to that position and leave it there. Would save one cycle. Saw this recently with Iraq airways and their a321 during transit.

Any hints in that?

Thanks

Field In Sight
25th May 2015, 11:22
It wasn't over 30 degrees was it?
The fcom tells you to leave the flaps out in that case.

Lord Spandex Masher
25th May 2015, 11:29
If you get out of the habit of setting flaps before take off what happens the next time you need something different to 1+f....

mcdhu
25th May 2015, 11:45
In my experience, refuellers won't touch you if flaps are anywhere but UP.

Uplinker
25th May 2015, 12:02
It used to be the case that flaps were left at 1+F when ground air temperature was 30 degrees centigrade or more, to avoid a mis-triggering of a wing air leak caution. The caution is surpressed when the flaps/slats are out. Our company still does this, but I've just checked the FCOM which says that wing air bleed leak does not trigger until 124 degrees, so maybe Airbus have changed the parameters?

The F part of 1+F - i.e. the flaps - hang quite low, which is a potential damage hazard to ground servicing vehicles - particularly fuel trucks - who are probably not expecting it, so leaving flaps out on the ramp is not an ideal situation.

Leaving flaps out at a particular setting is a safety hazard for mis-setting take off config too. Many incidents have been documented of crews setting the wrong take off config, because some crews insist on saying things like config 1+F is "standard" which is a recipe for mistakes.

vilas
25th May 2015, 12:44
Uplinker
The parameters are not changed and although wing leak is triggered above 124degrees the after landing procedure remains same i.e. above 30 degrees for keeping flap1 is not changed. Since it is triggered from slat, after shut down it is possible to retract the flap with yellow electrics though strictly speaking it is not SOP.

Uplinker
25th May 2015, 13:30
......... it is possible to retract the flap with yellow electrics though strictly speaking it is not SOP.

Yes, I have done that myself, but as you say this is not SOP and you get some funny looks from the other side of the cockpit! You also risk getting a slat or flap caution which doesn't clear.

Cough
25th May 2015, 14:28
Don't forget that to turn the IRU's off, needs flap 0 just to complicate the issue, so why wait until the gate!

Metro man
25th May 2015, 14:47
I think it only applies to the early A320s not the newer ones. It's quite common to see this at Middle Eastern airports for obvious reasons.

If you use the yellow electric pump or blue pump override, remember to switch them off afterwards as you will get problems with spoilers and various ECAM messages if you leave them on.

goeasy
25th May 2015, 19:43
The other option is to turn engine bleeds off - disarms the sensors. Great for quick get away once overheat warning triggered. Just leave bleeds off till after takeoff.

I had it in Erbil once, with flaps one! Only other option than waiting for 53deg OAT to subside. No thanks!

FlightDetent
25th May 2015, 21:12
FCOM wording [valid for MSNs 04xx 09xx 17xx 29xx 42xx 44xx]

FLAPS....................................................... ......................... RETRACT
Set the FLAPS lever to position 0.

If the approach was made in icing conditions, or if the runway was contaminated with slush or snow, do not retract the flaps and slats until after engine shutdown and after the ground crew has confirmed that flaps and slats are clear of obstructing ice.
On ground, hot weather conditions may cause overheating to be detected around the bleed ducts in the wings, resulting in “AIR L (R) WING LEAK” warnings. Such warnings may be avoided during transit by keeping the slats in Configuration 1 when the OAT is above 30 C.
To avoid damage on the RTLU (Rudder Travel Limit Unit) mechanical stop, the SLATS/FLAPS should be retracted before all ADIRS are set to OFF simultaneously.

Uplinker
26th May 2015, 08:20
Didn't know that about the RTLU FLightdetent - thanks!

Goeasy, interesting tip, but might not there be engine handling issues if the engine bleeds are off for takeoff, e.g. increased compressor stall risk etc?

vivekh
29th May 2015, 13:12
Here in India, we almost always have temperatures > 30C on the ramp, sometimes as high as the late 40s. Our company SOP doesn't ask us to keep CONF1 on the ground, nor have I personally ever encountered the AIR WING LEAK fault.

Dan Winterland
29th May 2015, 13:39
It depends whether your A320 has the updated temperature sensors or not.

vilas
29th May 2015, 14:00
I don't think there are any updated sensors as the 30C recommendation is applicable to all aircraft. Perhaps the company may be preferring occasional wing bleed warning by retracting flaps to the possibility of damage to the RTLU by leaving them at 1+F.

Toruk Macto
29th May 2015, 14:37
Operator I worked for did it to save cycles ( not Airbus or Boeing ) . They got told by manufacture that the flap tracks where never designed to have flaps out for extended periods , especially high winds , towing . So they reverted back to retracting them after every flight .

TyroPicard
29th May 2015, 22:15
On a point of order...
FCOM suggests Slats in CONF 1.. no mention of flaps!

Stone_cold
30th May 2015, 06:10
TP ,

They don't mention it ( Flaps ) because if one understand the system , then one should know what CONF1 gives on the ground .

fc101
30th May 2015, 07:39
If you get out of the habit of setting flaps before take off what happens the next time you need something different to 1+f....

The checklists, SOP etc should protect you from this, but then again...

Spanair Flight 5022 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022)

TyroPicard
30th May 2015, 22:42
Stone Cold
One understands the system quite well, thank you. How well do you understand the hydraulic system and it's relationship with slats and flaps? Think about it....

Stone_cold
31st May 2015, 02:58
TP.

Seems that I assumed that as this is in the after landing procedure , all hydraulic systems are functioning . If one wants to select "slat only " at the gate , yes, I agree that it is possible , not usually a recommended crew procedure , but possible .

Dan Winterland
31st May 2015, 03:40
I don't think there are any updated sensors as the 30C recommendation is applicable to all aircraft. Perhaps the company may be preferring occasional wing bleed warning by retracting flaps to the possibility of damage to the RTLU by leaving them at 1+F.

Yes there are and the limit is not applicable to all aircraft. Our aircraft had the 30 degree limit. But about 7 years ago, they were fitted with new sensors - and now we don't! I do notice that other operators have new A320s and leave the flaps at 1+F during transits, so they are obviously an option.

vilas
31st May 2015, 04:51
Dan
Even 2014 FCOM states the same 30 degrees for all aircrafts. Can you check your own FCOM and confirm? What you see may be airline practice. It is not a mandatory action just an advice so obviously it can be ignored.

Dan Winterland
31st May 2015, 07:50
Even 2014 FCOM states the same 30 degrees for all aircrafts.

No they don't. FCOMs are sometimes adapted to airlines and of course only apply to the airframes specified in the applicability list. Our FCOMs are particular to our operation and had the requirement for 1+F in OATs >30 degrees removed once the entire fleet had been modified.

Metro man
31st May 2015, 08:00
It also depends if you have a large number of pilots in your airline who came from other airlines where the slats were left out.

Some people have difficulty in adapting to a new employers SOPs;)

Togue
2nd Jun 2015, 19:48
Dan,

Could you provide a reference to that modification?

Dan Winterland
3rd Jun 2015, 21:53
I had a look in our FCOM for the reference, but got bored after about a dozen pages. It's in there somewhere, it will turn up sometime. I gather the new sensors have better sheilding.

vilas
4th Jun 2015, 01:00
I checked FCOM of an airline which has aircraft with sharklets and BUSS which have new FWC H2F6 even that has the same advisory.

The Green Goblin
4th Jun 2015, 02:32
Operating in Australia we don't do it.

Only ever had an ecam when it was over 40 degrees.

From engineering, having the slats in config one allows better dissipation of hot air.

I'd rather an ECAM than a fuel truck smacking into the trailing edge of the flaps......

vilas
4th Jun 2015, 07:08
The Green Goblin
Yes that is the reason most air lines don't do it. The refuellers are used to the usual clearance under the wing and may not realise the changed situation. Besides it is only a possibility of warning and a suggestion. But sensors are same there is no modification. Dedicated airline FCOMs may have had it removed altogether.

Uplinker
5th Jun 2015, 10:52
If the wing air leak sensor is not triggered until 124 degrees centigrade, then does anyone know why the caution triggers at 30 or 40 degrees?