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Driver 170
23rd May 2015, 18:03
I'm interested in finding out from pilots - airbus or boeing, how long does it take you to complete full departure brief, takeoff brief and standard and non standard drills? With the era of low cost carriers quick turn arounds are the norm in the industry.

When do you start your brief? After preflight checks?

When should you complete them by? Before the before start procedure?

Do you brief the SID plate against the FMS, ie compare waypoints, tracks, distances, alt rest.

Would also appreciate a run down of your way of things that happen up the flightdeck!?

This is purely for my own interest to better my cockpit simulation that i have 737 NG

AerocatS2A
23rd May 2015, 23:06
For us:

1. Set the speed bugs for take-off (this is often initially based on an estimated take-off weight)
2. Captain runs through an instruments check (each primary instrument indicating normally, no flags, QNH set correctly and altimeters reading within tolerance.) FO checks against their instruments, if all is ok they say nothing.
3. Check the FMS against the flightplan. (Waypoints correct and total distance correct.)
4. Get an airways clearance and set the initial altitude and squawk code.
5. Brief the SID. Check the chart number, and run through the pertinent points. If it's one you've never done before you might do it in detail, if it's one you do every day you can just review the basic points.
6. Enter the SID in the FMS and check it against the chart.
7. Pilot flying gives take-off brief covering the nav setup, the normal departure (pretty much already covered by the SID brief), the plan for a performance loss during the take-off, and the plan for something requiring an immediate re-land.
8. Checklist

It all take about 5-10 minutes depending on how thorough you want to be.

Intruder
24th May 2015, 00:11
After getting Departure Clearance:

Final Flight Deck Procedure:
Fuel Verification and Final Documents procedures
ACARS and FMC initialization and verification
Takeoff Briefing [PF]
Call “PREFLIGHT checklist”

Takeoff Briefing
• MEL / NOTAMs / Unique Issues
• Weather / Runway & Condition
• Taxi Plan / Hot Spot
• RTO / Evacuation
• Air Return / TO Alternate
• Block Out Weight / Takeoff Weight
• THR / Flaps / CLB Profile / V-speeds
• Clearance / Departure Procedure
• Displays / Automation Mode Intent
• Terrain / Obstacles / Climb Gradient
• Transition Altitude
• Engine Failure Procedure
• Other Threats / Mitigation

On the nth leg with the same crew, it may take 30 seconds to update "Standard Briefing, same as previously briefed except..."

On the first leg of a TransAtlantic trip out of a busy airport with a new FO, it may be 5 minutes...

MarkerInbound
24th May 2015, 00:15
Not a 737 but still Boeing.


1. Cockpit setup
2. FMC route - normally it's ACARSed in so request it, go get coffee and it should be waiting when you get back. Otherwise type from the paperwork. If it did come from ACARS check each leg against the paper flight plan.
3. Get the ATIS
4. Pick a runway and star and load them. Compare what's in the FMC to the chart.
5. Get the takeoff performance. Most of the time it again comes through ACARS, otherwise we work through tables.
6. Get the ATC clearance. Make sure it is the same as what you loaded in the FMC.
7. Briefing. One time a Check Airman was giving OE to a new Captain and I was on the jumpseat. The new Captain was going on and on. The Check Airman was looking out the window and picking at his nails after three minutes. The new Captain just keep going on. When he finished and asked if there were any questions or anything to add the Check Airman pointed out it was supposed to be a briefing and not the complete FCOM. I cover:
a. Current weather
b. Any MEL items that matter
c. Taxi plan
d. Takeoff thrust settings
e. RTO considerations
f. If there is a special engine out procedure and if we'll need fuel dumping
g. The SID step by step
h. MSA and transition level
8. Preflight Checklist


If everything goes right it's about 15 minutes of work.

Driver 170
24th May 2015, 11:18
Thanks a bunch guys really appreciated.

It seems this is all done before the preflight checks is that correct? And what is left after preflight checks? Just waiting for doors to be closed?

Also like to add, for the PF - before start procedure for the 737 is this set V2, arm the A/T, LNAV VNAV if needed FMC page to TAKEOFF, as per the FCOM or is this down to each operator?

Also during CDU preflight do you enter the expected RWY and SID? And double check this when getting clearance roughly 10mins before OBT

MarkerInbound
24th May 2015, 14:19
Yep, just wait for the door, another cup of coffee, a last bathroom break.


As Aerocat said, you set V2 based on planned TO weight. It gets double checked when the final paperwork shows up. Shouldn't be more than a knot or two difference. We don't arm the A/T until the Before T/O checklist but LNAV/VNAV are armed when it's confirmed that's what we're doing and the FMC pages set to Takeoff and Legs after the briefing.


Runway and SID picked as a best guess, confirmed after the ATC clearance.

Driver 170
24th May 2015, 20:04
I have been setting everything up during my before start procedure per the Boeing standard FCOM,

MCP ............................................................ ...................... Set C

AUTOTHROTTLE ARM switch – ARM
IAS/MACH selector – Set V2 Arm LNAV as needed

[Option - FMC U10.8 and later, FCC Collins P4 and later or FCC Honeywell 710 and later, and CDS BP06 and later]
Arm VNAV

Initial heading – Set
Initial altitude – Set
Taxi and Takeoff briefings ...................................... Complete C, F/O


So what should i do where?

When do you perform your performance calculations on the EFB?

Cheers

Intruder
24th May 2015, 21:26
Since you're simulating, and likely do not have a 2nd pilot doing it with you, further detail is moot.

Driver 170
24th May 2015, 23:39
What do you mean exactly?

Wirbelsturm
25th May 2015, 11:00
B777

VNAV, LNAV, V speeds, initial climb height, departure, weights, trim, flap setting and runway heading are all completed at the critical data setting procedure before push back and engine start, all data crosschecked between the PF and the PNF.

Once the push back has been completed and the donks started, the flaps are selected, control surfaces checked and the before taxi checks completed.

On the way out to the runway the before take off brief is updated with any changes to the aircraft MEL items and performance items once the cabin checks and the final load sheet have been confirmed.

The whole gambit of setting up the aircraft, running through the departure brief, completing the critical data setting procedure, running the emergencies brief and then updating critical changes on the taxy takes about 15 minutes with an experienced crew.

Since you're simulating, and likely do not have a 2nd pilot doing it with you, further detail is moot.

If you haven't got someone else there to crosscheck your calculations (which you won't have on flight sim except a very understanding wife/girlfriend/partner etc...) then there is no point in re-briefing yourself. Either you have entered it correctly or you've entered it incorrectly believing you have done it correctly. The result will be either a successful mathematical take off or a few mushed pixels, game over, try again. :}

Enjoy.

JEM60
25th May 2015, 13:02
Nice to see 'proper' pilots giving such helpful information to flight simmers [of which there are many, including me, tho' I did have a proper PPL], instead of just deriding them, as frequently happens.
It is a very popular and absorbing hobby [not obsessive in my case!] and gives a very good insight into the proper flying world that many of us can't/couldn't achieve. Thankyou very much guys.:ok:

MarkerInbound
25th May 2015, 14:09
When do you perform your performance calculations on the EFB?
When you get the load sheet. So you need to randomly simulate when the agent will deliver your paperwork in the middle of your set up and briefing. Then you need to simulate the agent returning 5 minutes before departure with new paperwork.

Driver 170
25th May 2015, 14:52
I'm using this addon software called FS2Crew for the 737 NGX and at +7 before gates close he comes and says hes your loadsheet captain! Don't laugh but the software is very powerfull and the FO is doing all the FLOWS in the background when needed and also the checklists when needed. You also can give him commands which reduces your work flow ie during the critical takeoff segment.

Ok cool, i'll add that second agent to the mix is this just a final pax count and final weight?

I have also this tool called TOPCAT (takeoff perf calculations) which uses BOEING FCOM Performance Dispatch tables, i plug in the airport, runway the weather and i have everything i need. Its gives you options to calculate like OPTIMUM.

Nothing like your guys EFB but its good enough for us!

So soon as i do my PERF CALC is that when i can enter V2, TO CG, STAB TRIM etc?

MarkerInbound
26th May 2015, 12:21
Ok cool, i'll add that second agent to the mix is this just a final pax count and final weight?


Yes


So soon as i do my PERF CALC is that when i can enter V2, TO CG, STAB TRIM etc?


I look at it as four globs of stuff to do. There's the initial flows and nest building to check everything out. Right after that is the routing, either typing or sent through ACARS and tweaked with the SID and runway. Then comes the performance data. Some times I'll be seating in the seat and the other pilot will ask if I've run the performance. I'll reply that we have 45 minutes and new weather will be out in 5 and I'm waiting. When the performance is done, load it and have the other pilot check it. ATC clearance is normally available 30 minutes prior. You get that, change whatever has to be changed on the route and go straight into the briefing.

Driver 170
26th May 2015, 20:25
Well i got more than i bargained for, thanks all for chipping in and helping out.

Driver 170
26th May 2015, 22:05
One more thing :) do you guys have the before start checklist to the line / below the line? Or use the standard checklist?

Cheers

Driver 170
26th May 2015, 23:57
If its your sector and your PF what flows do you do for your own preflight setup? Might be asking company SOPs !

As i'm using the STD boeing FCOM flows its good to know other different ways !

MarkerInbound
27th May 2015, 03:47
Boeing went from the "Before Start Checklist to the Line" and "Below the Line" to a "Preflight" and "Before Start" checklist about ten years ago.

Most airlines, at least in the US, use the straight Boeing procedures with just minor tweaks. It's easier to get the FAA to approve it when you say, "That's what Boeing says to do."

Our FCOM, again not a 737, has the preflight flows broken down by PIC and F/O. Once the plane starts moving it switches to PF/PM duties.

Driver 170
27th May 2015, 09:40
So do most operators still use that before start checklist to the line / below the line?

Right, ok not a 737 pilot! But would be great if a 737 pilot here could share his PIC flows during preflight?

Wirbelsturm
27th May 2015, 12:09
There is only the before take-off checklist before and after the line now on my fleet.

We do however run it from the ECL on the B777, not sure what the differences for the 737 would be but I can have a look.

Before the line checklist incorporates:
Loadsheet received?
Data changes to final load sheet?
If Yes rerun performance and cross check
if No continue
Performance calculations correct for departure point of runway?
Take off brief updated (rebrief any performance issues or MEL items)
Cabin ready received
Transponder to TA/RA
----------------entering the runway line ---------------
Strobes on
Lights On
Cx Weather Radar on
TCAS approach path for departure runway looks clear
Confirm line up or departure clearance
Signal Cabin Crew

Wirbelsturm
27th May 2015, 12:18
Okay, Just checked the B737 checklists and there is, on the pre-flight checklist, a 'line' per-se that indicates it is where the crew complete the Loadsheet critical data setting.

It comes after CDU preflight and before Taxi and take-off briefing which makes sense.

The only other 'line' is in the before take-off checklist as described above.

This is all from the Boeing QRH which follows Boeings flight philosophy.

Hope that helps.

Atlas Shrugged
28th May 2015, 04:11
I don't normally come into this section of the forum but I was browsing earlier on and noticed this thread.

If you've got a spare 2 or so hours to kill, take a look at this YouTube film called made for ITVV on Virgin Atlantic B747400 EGGL to KSFO Flight 19.

Whilst it's not for the 737, it still takes you through the entire preflight.

Cap. also had a website at one point but I'm not sure if it's still up, though.IQEGhb7QVPQ

Atlas Shrugged
28th May 2015, 04:17
IQEGhb7QVPQ

Driver 170
28th May 2015, 09:56
Appreciate all the help, and hope this helps others too!


Do you have to get permission from ground crew to pressurize the HYD before start?

Wirbelsturm
28th May 2015, 10:28
Do you have to get permission from ground crew to pressurize the HYD before start?

Yes as you will be pressurising the powered flight controls and the nose wheel steering mechanism and they need to be aware of that in case there is any inadvertent movement. (especially with a tow bar attached!!!!)

Driver 170
28th May 2015, 10:44
Ok i'll do that for my before start procedure!

If i'm getting towed and there isn't a locking pin for the nose gear will i leave HYD PUMP A off?

Also when the loadsheet arrives, does the PF and PM do a loadsheet review?

Wirbelsturm
28th May 2015, 11:25
From the current B737 Flight Crew Operating Manual:

Hydraulic panel . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Set P2
If pushback is needed and the nose gear steering lockout pin is not
installed:

WARNING: Do not pressurize hydraulic system A.
Unwanted tow bar movement can occur.


System A HYDRAULIC PUMP switches – OFF

Verify that the system A pump LOW PRESSURE lights are
illuminated.

System B electric HYDRAULIC PUMP switch – ON

Verify that the system B electric pump LOW PRESSURE light
is extinguished.

Verify that the brake pressure is 2,800 psi minimum.

Verify that the system B pressure is 2,800 psi minimum.

If pushback is not needed, or if pushback is needed and the nose gear
steering lockout pin is installed:

Electric HYDRAULIC PUMP switches – ON

Verify that the electric pump LOW PRESSURE lights are
extinguished.

Verify that the brake pressure is 2,800 psi minimum.

Verify that the system A and B pressures are 2,800 psi minimum.

So, in answer to your question, yes leave HYD PUMP A off.

Also when the loadsheet arrives, does the PF and PM do a loadsheet review?

The following comes under the heading of Pilot Flying and Pilot Monitoring so therefore is completed and checked by both:

Inspect Loadsheet to verify if Final or Provisional. If Provisional,
confirm final Loadsheet figures have been received and actioned as per
the Late Close Out Procedure.

Confirm vital data is set for correct runway intersection and departure,
the correct runway on ND, correct speeds set and confirm correct thrust
and derates set.

Driver 170
28th May 2015, 11:49
Good stuff, also why do pilots start the chrono during pushback?

Wirbelsturm
28th May 2015, 11:55
Not being on the jet myself I can only assume for the following:

Starter duty cycle:
• Multiple consecutive start attempts are permitted. Each start
attempt is limited to 2 minutes of starter usage.
• A minimum of 20 seconds is needed between the first and second
start attempts.
• A minimum of 3 minutes is needed between the second and
subsequent start attempts.

Driver 170
28th May 2015, 17:21
Would you have an example of a loadsheet by anychance or maybe someone?

Wirbelsturm
28th May 2015, 19:03
As you have been falling over yourself to say 'thanks' for all the help you have thus received I will give you this last example.

Whilst I am happy to trawl through aircraft documentation to help flight simmers a little courtesy wouldn't go amiss and I have better things to do with my time now.

Wirbelsturm.

1 OF 2
OCM 23.5K
A/C PACKS ON
EGCC/24R

W/C 10 HW TEMP 21C
DRY RWY ANTI – ICE OFF
QNH 1013 MACTOW 0
DAY : CLG NIL
VIS 150M
NIGHT : CLG NIL
VIS 150M
PERF CORRS
NONE
F/L (TWY A1) TOR 3048
**FLAP 5** TOPL: 66.0
ATOW TEMP V1 VR V2
57.2 49 145 145 151
55.7 51 143 143 149
54.0 53 140 140 146
NOTES
SEE MSG 2 OF 2

2 OF 2
OCM 23.5K
A/C PACKS ON
EGCC/24R

NOTES
PERFORMANCE RESTRICTIONS
EMERGENCY TURN PROCEDURE
NO RESTRICTIONS. ENSURE
MSA IS REACHED.
BEFORE RETURN.
TERRAIN CLEARANCE HAS BEEN
CHECKED ON SIDS OUT TO MCT 20D.
END OF 2 of 2

Driver 170
28th May 2015, 19:33
Best i can do really, so thanks once more to all. cheers!

Atlas Shrugged
29th May 2015, 00:23
Check PM's

Driver 170
30th May 2015, 13:28
Just like to cover one other thing, i'm using LIDO charts from Navigraph and the charts have AOI (airport opertional information) will i include the relevant items from the airports general information in the briefing too?

VHS
31st May 2015, 06:06
@Atlas Shrugged :=

You do not have permission to upload ITVV Copyrighted material.

The contents have been removed