France to buy C-130?!!

[KenV]

PARIS — France has set aside an extra €1.5 billion (US $1.7 billion) to acquire additional equipment, including the C-130 Hercules......

France Boosts Arms Spending, Eyes C-130 Buy (http://www.defensenews.com/story/breaking-news/2015/05/20/france-budget-hercules-c130-boost-sahel-africa-inflight-refueling-tiger-helicopter-frigate/27652679/)

Can this be true? France is deeply invested in the A400 which is billed as the tactical airlifter of the 21st century, but they want to buy a 1950s vintage tactical airlifter? What am I missing?

[Wander00]

C'est France..............

[wiggy]

Not that much of a mystery. The French already operate the C-130 and their forces (including paras/SF) are involved in fairly intensive ops in Africa so I guess they need a known quantity off the shelf now, I suspect the military feel they can't wait for the A400, though the politicians might have a different idea.

The Mali stuff seems to be largely ignored outside France these days but some of our local news here:
http://www.ladepeche.fr/article/2015/05/02/2097590-mali-c-est-leur-guerre.html

They're up to something because a couple of C-130s have been busy trying to take the roof off chez Wiggy day and night in the last few weeks :D :D

[Evalu8ter]

Ken,
Maybe they view the A400 as a Strat asset and the -130 as Tactical? Having heard a number of briefs about the Mali campaign C130 or CH47 would have come in handy.

[melmothtw]

Having heard a number of briefs about the Mali campaign C130 or CH47 would have come in handy.

The French had (and operated) the C-130 in Mali. It was the A400M that would have been useful - ferrying the supplies directly from France to the point of need, rather than having to fly them into Bamako on C-17s before cross-decking them to C-130s and other tactical transports for delivery to the frontline.

[Evalu8ter]

Mmm - saw lots of ppts with FOBs resupplied by road......

[Uncle Ginsters]

It was the A400M that would have been useful - ferrying the supplies directly from France to the point of need, rather than having to fly them into Bamako on C-17s before cross-decking

Was that really an airframe or a political limitation? There are several C17-capable airfields 'up country' but it seems no-one was wiling to send them there whilst doing a friendly nation a favour...

[Jambo Jet]

Wouldn't be too surprised if the UK also bought C130 in the next few years

[Biggus]

KenV,

"What am I missing?"

Another chance to make an "American is best" comment maybe - no, hold on, that's what you've just done isn't it? :=

[JointShiteFighter]

Wouldn't be too surprised if the UK also bought C130 in the next few years

Highly unlikely, the current C-130's will be retired by 2022 and will be replaced by the A400M. It seems somewhat absurd to spend more money on additional aircraft of the same Type in those circumstances.

[siddar]

Sold not retired I believe.

UK will have the same helicopter refueling issue as France.

C130 seems the most likely choice for that role if a400m can not actually do that role as was originally planned.

[Brian W May]

It seems somewhat absurd to spend more money

Defence spending and procurement???

[Courtney Mil]

KenV,

It was reported here in France in early April. The reason given then was purely the helo air-refuelling issue,

C'est la conséquence directe des déboires du programme A400M, qui n'aura pas la capacité de ravitaillement en vol pour hélicoptères. Le délégué général pour l'armement Laurent Collet-Billon l'avait révélé durant la présentation des résultats de la DGA, estimant qu'en raison des turbulences des hélices de l'A400M, la procédure est trop dangereuse pour ravitailler les hélicoptères.

En conséquence, une équipe de la DGA est en ce moment aux Etats-Unis pour négocier l'acquisition de C-130J de Lockheed Martin. Cet achat qui se fera en procédure FMS (Foreign Military Sale), visera à prélever directement des Super Hercules sur la chaine de l'USAF. La commande pourrait être officialisée rapidement, d'ici quelques semaines.


More recent reports also cite the A400 programme delays coupled with the C-130 workload in Africa. The workload issue issue may be the Armée de l'Air using a bit of additional leverage to secure the buy. M Hollande does seem set on a sizeable increase in spending.

Translation of the article:

"This is the direct result of setbacks in the A400M program, which will not have a helicopter air refuelling capability. The Delegate General for Armaments, Laurent Collet-Billon, revealed during a presentation of results from the DGA, saying that because of turbulence from the A400M's propellers, helo refuelling is too dangerous.

Consequently, a team from the DGA is presently in the United States to negotiate the purchase of C-130J. This purchase will be done Under Foreign Military Sale, and will seek to draw directly on the Super Hercules USAF, supply chain. The order could be formalized in a few weeks."

[TBM-Legend]

Adding a few more fit for purpose Hercs to an existing fleet seems logical and simple. Waiting for FOC on an A400M - how long is a piece of string?

[Courtney Mil]

Maybe they view the A400 as a Strat asset and the -130 as Tactical?

My understanding was that A-400M was supposed to replace C-130 and C-160 in all their roles (edited to add: not sure about the SigInt ones and France does have a lot of small, tactical transport assets) and to allow them to stop borrowing another country's strat airlift. Now it looks like they'll have to run the Hercs on as well to refuel the helos. That said, they already run quite a number of small, diverse fleets.

[Old Fella]

KenV, the C130 may have had it's genesis in the mid 1950's, however there is very little in common, other than the basic shape, in the C130J compared to the C130A. Over 60 years of continuous production has seen a very different aircraft evolve. With time as a F/E on three models (A-E-H) I appreciate the magnitude of those continuing changes. I understand the Super J model is a very capable airlifter and I believe the C130 will continue to play a role for many years to come.

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Old Fella. A hard act to follow.

[KenV]

KenV, "What am I missing?" Another chance to make an "American is best" comment maybe - no, hold on, that's what you've just done isn't it?

Only in the minds of the shallow thinkers.

[Courtney Mil]

KenV, shallow is the new deep!

Anyway, as I said before, the Herc will always be a hard act to follow. And, more to point, it will fit well with France's existing inventory AND do the job they need.

[twochai]

I wonder if the problem for the A400M is not the same as that for the C-17 - a reluctance on the part of the command to commit a $250 million (or Euro) asset to short/rough field operations in the middle of nowhere. The risk of loss or severe damage on a 'local' rice haul, where recovery is risky, becomes very problematical.

[KenV]

I wonder if the problem for the A400M is not the same as that for the C-17 - a reluctance on the part of the command to commit a $250 million (or Euro) asset to short/rough field operations in the middle of nowhere.

Hmmm. Maybe. But then again, the C-130 crew is bigger than the C-17 crew. Are C-130 crew more expendable than C-17 crew?

[downsizer]

J operates with less crew than legacy C130s so I don't really think that's the issue.

[Out Of Trim]

Just to flip this around; would the USAF consider buying the A400M as a C-130 replacement themselves? A small fleet might well be useful to uncle Sam! :8

[Courtney Mil]

Or maybe France have just 6 A400Ms and are still establishing a new type. Lots of work up yet to do. It will eventually be their new workhorse, but early days yet.

The C-130 is well established, fully manned and fully supported. It is also well proven in the North African environment and does the job, making it the obvious choice for those missions.

And their is another aspect that some may wish to take issue with. France does not feel the need to field new types on ops in order to justify their purchase in the same way that UK and U.S. Military leaders do.

[KenV]

France does not feel the need to field new types on ops in order to justify their purchase in the same way that UK and U.S. Military leaders do.


Hmmmm. F-22 reached IOC in 2005. And after a decade of service has seen minimal actual operational service. Raptor did not see combat till late 2014 over Syria. F-35 has seen the same slow (one could call it glacial) work up. The first production C-17 was delivered in 1993 and the first squadron was not operational until two years later. Going back to the 70s and the F-15, the first production Eagle was delivered in 1974. It took another year before the first squadron was operational. The first F-15 deployment was not until 1977.

So I personally don't see any rush by USAF to "field new types" to "justify their purchase". In fact, just the opposite.

By comparison, France received its first A400 in September 2013. Just three months later, that A400 was deployed to Mali. Was that rush to "field" the A400 used to "justify their purchase"? Maybe. Maybe not.

[Courtney Mil]

I get what you're saying, Ken, but that wasn't quite what I meant. France has used their assets where they were required rather than because they have just bought them and want to show them off - your point, I know. There have been lots of occasions when countries a bit further west have been very keen to get their shiny toys into a punch-up to justify the purchase, continued support and additional spending. I have been there when such discussions took place - and not necessarily for new, shiny jets.

F-22 didn't need to be deployed in the early years and there may have been reasons not to. That said, I take your point that it wasn't sent to a sandpit just to justify its purchase.

But my real point was that the French don't need to deploy A400 into short/rough field ops simply to justify the purchase. It's simply a different culture. If French authorities were required to justify all their spending, there might be another revolution.