The Colibri's Stunted Development???

[SeaMac]

I’m wondering why Airbus Helicopters formerly Eurocopter formerly Aerospatiale hasn’t fully developed the H120 formerly EC120b? AFAIK the H120/EC120 was envisioned to replace the Gazelle and Squirrel although it seems to have stopped short of replacing the H125/AS350 variants. Is there any particular reason for this? If an operator seeks more useful load or hot and high flexibility they’re stuck with a Squirrel, not saying stuck in a bad way necessarily but seemingly less technologically advanced.

There aren’t even options such as fixed floats, spray, fire suppression, hi-pressure cleaning systems available for the Colibri. Is it a lack of power, fuselage strength integrity, tail rotor authority, what? With its smaller footprint and fenestron you would think it an extremely popular alternative to replace the venerable Squirrel but yet it has not. Of course there’s the H130 which is certainly larger and more powerful and utterly hideous from the front with the operative word being “larger”. Would it not be possible to use the more powerful Arriel in the Colibri?

The H120 is a very good looking ship although I personally think it needs the option of two sliding rear doors instead of just the left/port side. I believe it could seriously affect the sales of JetRanger's, MD500’s, R44/66’s etc if Airbus made it more competitive on the utility end of the spectrum. Perhaps the Colibri was only designed to be an entry level single turbine for training, LE and transport purposes???

[HeliHenri]

Hello SeaMac,

you seem to be be a fixed float addict ;)

The 120 has never been developped to replace gazelle and 350.
The Gazelle is mainly a military helicopter while there's no military version of the 120 and the 120 carries 1 pilot plus 4 pax while the 350 can carry 1 pilot plus 6 pax in high density configuration.

[SeaMac]

Hi Henri,

Yes, I have a fixation with fixed floats but with purpose, many of my interests involve water, being able to land on it is relative to those interests.

I appreciate the clarification but that doesn't seem to answer why not much can be done with the Colibri in a "utility" sense when it seems the perfect platform for such work. For Ag work, power line work which in the US is apparently dominated by the MD500, fire suppression and so forth the safety aspects of the fenestron and small footprint lend itself to more maneuverability in confined spaces. It would seem the ideal ship for such applications yet Airbus seems uninterested in capitalizing on its inherent virtues.

[HeliHenri]

New, the 120 is much more expensive than a R66 at the present time and than a 505 in the near future.
I'm quite sure that the 120 is the only helicopter ever produced by AS/EC/AH without an improved version !
The 120 is a very good helicopter but AH seems not to be interested in it any more.
So last year, EC/AH produced only seven EC/H120 ...

[SeaMac]

That, or those in AH corporate hierarchy are less than attuned to market realities.

To design such a good aircraft with considerable improvement potential in various markets then let it flounder is how large companies can become cash strapped then ultimately smaller companies.

Maybe some enterprising individual or group will pick up the development where AH left off.


AH seems not to be interested in it any more.

[HeliHenri]

By the way and as you're interested in the cabri G2, do you know that Bruno is one of the fathers of the 120 when he was engineer for EC ;)

[SeaMac]

Yes I am aware of this.

I think both are very well thought out designs and quite honestly the only ships I have any real interest in. It is my hope to obtain my ab initio training in the G2 then move up to the H120. I'll likely start out as an instructor but have been reaching out to Ag operators who are in the fledgling but growing industry of cattle herding here in the US. They seem to be using the R22 for herding and either the Bell 47 or Squirrel for spraying and fire suppression. Interestingly those I have spoken with are keenly interested in the G2 and agree the Colibri would make an excellent spray ship if it had a bit more power, useful load and hot/high abilities as well the STC's for equipment which at present it has none of the above.

It's unlikely the US will ever be at the level of Australia when it comes to using helicopters for cattle ranching but it's not like we don't do cattle in the US and that is a HUGE potential market for Guimbal. If AH were to fully develop the 120 they too might be able capitalize on the ever increasing use of rotorcraft for aerial spraying.

[SeaMac]

Just to add,

As in most cases liability and the underwriting thereof can be a significant determining factor in the bottom line of ANY business enterprise. Put simply, an insurance premium can make you or break you. Insurance companies as a rule don't seem to fancy exposed tail rotors especially those that are slung about near the ground or in tight quarters let alone in close proximity to passersby. Another plus for the Colibri, it ain't got one! :ok:

[heli1]

Doesn't the H130 count as a development of the H120 then?

[SeaMac]

In the strictest sense I would think not...

Doesn't the H130 count as a development of the H120 then?

[Ian Corrigible]

Or, if not the EC130, then what about the AC311 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/433249-strangely-familiar-new-chinese-helicopter.html)? :E

The most commonly rumored reasons for the lack of EC120 development are two-fold:

A non-willingness by AH to invest in the product unless its partners (Harbin & STAe) were also willing to divvy up their share of funding
A desire to avoid competing with the more profitable (i.e. fully amortized) AS350 B2 (which, per its absence from the new AH branding guide (https://www.airbushelicopters.com/website/en/ref/Meet-the-H-Generation_229.html), would appear to have a limited remaining shelf life)

Can't vouch for the validity of either rumor.

I/C

[Hot and Hi]

Another plus for the Colibri, it ain't got one! :ok:

The CoaX (http://www.coaxhelicopters.com/coax-helicopters-faqs) doesn't have a tail rotor neither, as it uses a coaxial rotor. And the company is positioning its 20' rotor diameter manned/unmanned helicopter squarely for the ag crop spraying or anti frost management market.

Admittedly the product is still in the development phase.

[Fareastdriver]

I wonder if there is a deal between AH and Harbin.

[HeliHenri]

So, let's go !

Few years ago 120 and 350B2 were both selling well so no fratricidal war.

The number of 120 built is approching 700 (the last one delivered this year was for a Swiss operator).

But every things changed with the arrival of the R66, it has been a rush because of the very low price.

It happens the same thing to the R66 with the arrival of the 505 but not because of a very low price, because of a low price for a good product.
192 R66 sold two years ago and 101 sold last year despite the new China and EASA certifications .
.

[John Eacott]

Many years ago the lack of power in the EC120 was pointed out and Eurocopter Australia asked if a 120B was in the offing.

"If you want a more powerful 120, buy a Squirrel" was the response.

[SeaMac]

From the latest responses is it possible AH and its partners have little interest in further development of a product that would clearly add to their collective bottom lines in a very lucrative segment of the market as a whole?

This could be loosely translated into, they have little knowledge of their own market's economics, they have adopted corporate arrogance where they are no longer interested in customer input, they simply don't care or all the above.

The Squirrel, as popular as it is, is old technology in a world where technology reigns supreme. Add growing worldwide regulations on noise and insurance driven requirements for safety and I don't see the Squirrel's market share as sustainable nor do I ever see the H130 fulfilling the roll of a smaller more nimble ship.

[HeliHenri]

Facts :

Average production rate before the arrival of the R66 : 50/year

Average production rate since the arrival of the R66 (end of 2010) : 10/year

You're right SeaMac, they didn't lesson to their customers but not because they didn't want to, just because they had no more customers in just few months, they all ran to Robinson to buy a price. That's the law of the market.

As you're looking for fenestron with a modern composite frame, have a look to the KC family from NZ : Composite Helicopters (http://www.compositehelicopters.com/)

[SeaMac]

In all my years as an avid helicopter enthusiast I could never understand the draw and attraction to any of the Robinson's. I understand the R22 nearly created and certainly has conquered the market but come on, they're all simply hideous to look at. The regulations pertaining to noise and safety will eventually catch up to the Robinson's IMHO and I certainly hope Guimbal takes a huge and everlasting bite out of their market share.

I know the R66 is cheap but you get what you pay for. I've recently seen the entire product line and they appear to me at least to be built like cramped and flimsy plastic toys. It's the choice ultimately between owning a Yugo or a BMW and sometimes having money doesn't necessarily mean you have brains. AH could address the shortcomings of the Colibri then aggressively market the ship, I think if a customer flew the two the Colibri would seal the deal.

[Never in Balance]

From my understanding, it isn't the lack of engine power it is that the transmission can't handle it. If they beefed up the transmission and gave it a slightly bigger tail it would be a great machine for it's class.
What i've been told is AH are thinking about focusing on the 130 and not paying much attention to the 350's as it's a older airframe and they are already at the limits of what it can handle (with the B3e)
NiB

[SeaMac]

That's as good an explanation as any I suppose. As for the 130, I don't see it being all that useful for power line, aerial spraying or vrll work as an "enhanced" 120, it just seems waaayyy too wide for good visibility without a second pair of eyes.

[Bravo73]

Doesn't the H130 count as a development of the H120 then?

The EC130 was a development of the Squirrel (the B4 of the family), not the EC120. It just happens to look similar to the 120.

[John Eacott]

What i've been told is AH are thinking about focusing on the 130 and not paying much attention to the 350's as it's a older airframe and they are already at the limits of what it can handle (with the B3e)
NiB

The EC130B4 is the AS350 airframe with a different cabin tacked on to the front and a fenestron instead of a tail rotor. Development of the AS350B3, hence the B4 designation.

Not at all sure why some posters here seem to be under the impression that the EC130 is some 'big brother' to the EC120 :hmm:

It's a big Squirrel, really ;)

[Evil Twin]

It's a big Squirrel, really ;)

Indeed John, the 130 doesn't have it's own type certificate where the 120 does, it's on the AS350 certificate (terminology?)

[HeliHenri]

70% of the 130's parts come from the 350.
Taste like a big 120 but just a variant of the 350.

[cattletruck]

I'm still hanging to fang a B3e, no interest in the booooooring B4, the other is a true pilot's craft even if it's apparently dated.

And against all that the 120 just looks like a compromise....

Now if you play golf then that's another story :E.