Final season announced for Vulcan XH558

[Wokkafans]

Rather sad to hear but probably inevitable at some stage. I'm pleased my children have had the opportunity to see the big beastie fly but a real pity for future young ones :sad:

Vulcan XH558 - Weekly Newsletter (http://mxm.mxmfb.com/rsps/m/LZP3UaOwTRAt7bA6cwlnKcKnJ7wZr7HZsM-tWSq6fbY)

[Wensleydale]

Another final season.

[Linedog]

There's always next years final season.

Just waiting for the begging bowl again.

[MAINJAFAD]

Engines are on their last legs in running hours and seeing they trashed two of the good eight ones they started with, they will have no flight worthy engines past the end of the year. Also the Design Authority (RR) have refused to extend the life of the engines, thus the thing cannot operate under the CAA regs. Most definitely the last year of flying.

[MPN11]

So glad I had a couple of years watching 4 sqns of them doing their thing as part of 1 Gp. Awesome beasts, with crews to match! ;)

The last 1 Gp Survival Scramble, from both secret bases, was awesome. Lincolnshire vibrated, and I'm sure many plaster ducks fell from walls, as both Wings punched out on their 'Fan Tracks' into a clear blue sky. An amazing sight, I assure you.

Glad to have had the privilege to be there, and see it, albeit [eventually] at the end of the Vulcan days [Black Buck and 50's Tankers]

[Dr Jekyll]

Maybe, if an old fashioned charity ran the program, where donations from the public and sponsors paid for the bits, and people helped out by giving their time and effort, in a good cause, then the Vulcan could keep going.

People would perhaps be inclined to give money if they thought it was being used to keep the aircraft flying.


Just a crazy thought I suppose.

Yes, crazy. Enough money has been raised to keep the aircraft flying as long as the engines last. What more do you want?

[NutLoose]

Of course the new Vulcan hangar with training school is being planned and that will keep some if the higher echelons of the VTTS still in their nicely paid positions..

She is an iconic example of that remarkable period of intense post-war innovation that made British aviation technology the envy of the world and helped to keep the peace in both strategic and tactical roles through the Cold War. It’s a truly remarkable story. In her new life, still able to accelerate dramatically along the runway, XH558 will build on this exciting provenance to inspire and educate new generations of young people, focussing on the technical skills that our country needs so badly.

Ahh let's see now, teaching young people on redundant 1950's military technology, that'll be handy for getting a job on BA's latest passenger thrungebucket.
As for the still able to blast up and down the runway... Well that's going to go down well if Doncaster international ever becomes busy.
Personally, she would be better returned to Bruntingthorpe where she could continue her runs.

I think they are going to be in for a shock trying to generate funds by begging bowl for a grounded hulk, especially anything close to their previous amounts, then they want to look at the other ground running Vulcans up and down the Country, as she will just gave joined their ranks as another grounded museum frame.

[Gsxr600]

It's wonderful to have seen a Vulcan flying for 8 years. I never expected to see it fly out of Bruntingthorpe but was thrilled to see it in the air. Say what you want about the VTST but they did achieve that.

A few things trouble me/confuse me though which seem to be unanswered

The engine disaster was never fully explained - think it's now described as a servicing error. Umm, shocking carelessness I think.

Even with the loss of these engines, the marine Olympus is still in service around the world and up until very recently in the Navy. There's even a company in Aberdeen who advertise Olympus rebuilds. The marine version is very similar to the 202 so I don't see why it's such a skills shortage. After all the 6 or 7 they have left all have very few hours on them. Just feel we are not being told the whole story on the engines.

As for the Doncaster project I can't help thinking this is crazy. Who is going to pay for this facility long term? Visitors are not going to pay any more to go there than Southend and Wellesbourne but the costs of maintaining this facility will be much higher. It would be much more responsible to use the remaining funds to hanger it at Bruntingthorpe or even Elvington where the long term future seems safer. Even better see if they can use their fundraising to get a hanger over some of the other Vulcans.

[Dr Jekyll]

Even with the loss of these engines, the marine Olympus is still in service around the world and up until very recently in the Navy. There's even a company in Aberdeen who advertise Olympus rebuilds. The marine version is very similar to the 202 so I don't see why it's such a skills shortage. After all the 6 or 7 they have left all have very few hours on them. Just feel we are not being told the whole story on the engines.


The information is freely available from VTTS if you choose look at it.

1) The only engines approved for use in 558 are the original version of the Olympus. Unless you can find some in the back of a hangar correctly stored and with paperwork to prove it there are no more.

2) The CAA insisted on a very short engine life compared with original service use. This is about to expire.

3) The only body approved by the CAA to rebuild the engines is RR, and they aren't prepared to do so.

[Wander00]

I suspect that RR, Marshall Aerospace et al have risk-assessed this to death and are no longer prepared to carry the potential liability. I admire them for having done so for so long, and I have never understood the business case for doing so, but then I am one of the curmudgeons...............

[GeeRam]

As for the Doncaster project I can't help thinking this is crazy. Who is going to pay for this facility long term? Visitors are not going to pay any more to go there than Southend and Wellesbourne but the costs of maintaining this facility will be much higher. It would be much more responsible to use the remaining funds to hanger it at Bruntingthorpe or even Elvington where the long term future seems safer.

I agree with you on this, Elvington alongside the Victor with a fund raising effort to put a roof over both of them would be the preferable choice IMHO.

Just don't see it working long term at Finningley or whatever it's called these days.

[NutLoose]

Even when stored in a VP bag engines are lifed by RR, that's probably one reason they rotated the stock, bung them on the wing, fly some cycles off them, then remove and rebag, your time period will start again.

The fiasco with the silica gel simply shorten the inevitable, I still cannot understand putting anything in the intakes without a shadow board to ensure they all were removed and damned long warning flags on them, they should have been in the jetpipe if anywhere.

Reading the article in Flypast, Flemings away with the faeries in hoping Something will turn up and they can continue into 2016.

[Gsxr600]

The information is freely available from VTTS if you choose look at it.

1) The only engines approved for use in 558 are the original version of the Olympus. Unless you can find some in the back of a hangar correctly stored and with paperwork to prove it there are no more.

2) The CAA insisted on a very short engine life compared with original service use. This is about to expire.

3) The only body approved by the CAA to rebuild the engines is RR, and they aren't prepared to do so.

I have read this thanks, very familier with it. My point is that I don't think it's a case of lack of expertise or forgotten skills, perhaps not even money although I don't doubt it is not cheap. The point I was trying to make was that the similar marine and power generation Olympus is still in use and can be overhauled and up until recently Conways were overhauled for the VC10 fleet. I'd just like a bit more openness and honesty - do RR just not want to take the risk anymore? Has the 202 got parts that are completely different and impossible to manufacture at realistic expense? Not expecting to get an answer but genuinely interested in knowing. It seems to me that the engine situation isn't as impossible as it's made out just wonder what the background to not being able to have them overhauled.

[MAINJAFAD]

The engine disaster was never fully explained - think it's now described as a servicing error. Umm, shocking carelessness I think.

Even with the loss of these engines, the marine Olympus is still in service around the world and up until very recently in the Navy. There's even a company in Aberdeen who advertise Olympus rebuilds. The marine version is very similar to the 202 so I don't see why it's such a skills shortage. After all the 6 or 7 they have left all have very few hours on them. Just feel we are not being told the whole story on the engines.

The thing only had a scheduled flying life of 10 years with 8 good engines, so to get 7 years out of it on only 5 is not bad going (they had already had one engine removed from service due to excessive metal chips in the engine oil found during routine maintenance before they FOD'ed the two in May 2012).

[NutLoose]

Wellesbourne's Vulcan is under threat with the plans to stick houses on it.

I suspect that RR, Marshall Aerospace et al have risk-assessed this to death and are no longer prepared to carry the potential liability. I admire them for having done so for so long, and I have never understood the business case for doing so, but then I am one of the curmudgeons...............

Yep, I bet they had kittens when it flew over London, down the mall and over Betty's place

[MAINJAFAD]

Didn't that happen when it was still in service with the RAF??? It was cleared to fly down the Thames at the start of the 2012 Diamond Jubilee River Pageant, but the clearance from the CAA came through on the same afternoon that the trashed the engines while it was starting its take off for a practice display at Coningsby (where I was based at the time).

[Gsxr600]

I read that article in Flypast too. Really seemed to be hinting at some more years of flying - up to 7 years of fatigue life. Yet just a few weeks later it's a catagoric last season press release. I have a feeling VTTS have been hoping that RR would permit the engines to be overhauled. I wonder how much creditability and confidence was lost when they trashed two of them.

The flying was bound to end eventually though whatever is being said behind the scenes. I feel disappointed and worried about Doncaster. Access and viewing will be poorer for fast taxi runs than Bruntingthorpe or Elvington. And how long will taxi runs last or be viable once funding ends. Bruntingthorpe and Elvington are unique sites where she could be safe for the forseeable future, looked after by people with the right skills and survive on a very low cost. The level of interest in 558 will plummet once she's not flying. With 655 being under threat, 558 facing a short term future at Doncaster (in my opinion) we might only be left with 426 as a runner - and 426 hasn't been down the runway in years.

I bet if VTTS actually asked their benefactors where she should go the vote would go to Bruntingthorpe.

[Gsxr600]

The thing only had a scheduled flying life of 10 years with 8 good engines, so to get 7 years out of it on only 5 is not bad going (they had already had one engine removed from service due to excessive metal chips in the engine oil found during routine maintenance before they FOD'ed the two in May 2012).

Pleming stated in Flypast this month that the airframe still has another 7 years of fatigue life left on it. It's engines that is the major problem.

[Dr Jekyll]

do RR just not want to take the risk anymore? Has the 202 got parts that are completely different and impossible to manufacture at realistic expense? Not expecting to get an answer but genuinely interested in knowing. It seems to me that the engine situation isn't as impossible as it's made out just wonder what the background to not being able to have them overhauled.

RR haven't rebuilt an Olympus 202 since 1982 and it was never envisaged that they would start again, it's hardly as if this is a sudden decision due to sinister shenanagins. There was a long shot of getting a life extension in the light of experience but apart from that it was always understood that once the engines were timed out the aircraft would be grounded

[Gsxr600]

RR haven't rebuilt an Olympus 202 since 1982 and it was never envisaged that they would start again, it's hardly as if this is a sudden decision due to sinister shenanagins. There was a long shot of getting a life extension in the light of experience but apart from that it was always understood that once the engines were timed out the aircraft would be grounded

Mr Pleming said at a talk I was at some years ago that RR at the moment would not consider overhauling them - clearly that position never changed. You are right to say nothing sinister, it's up to them. But to say it's impossible or the skills don't exist is simply not true as RR were overhauling Olympus Marine engines up until quite recently and the industrial version will continue to be overhauled for many years - both of which are very similar.

It's a shame but I presume it's just a risk that's not worth taking for them.

[Wycombe]

On a recent visit to Wellesbourne (great hospitality there, but the way), I was told they have 2 zero-timed Olympii available, but as 655 is a late-built aircraft these are 301's that are of no use to VTTS for 558.

Makes it even more sad that they managed to needlessly wreck 2 of theirs.

[NutLoose]

Mr Pleming said at a talk I was at some years ago that RR at the moment would not consider overhauling them - clearly that position never changed. You are right to say nothing sinister, it's up to them. But to say it's impossible or the skills don't exist is simply not true as RR were overhauling Olympus Marine engines up until quite recently and the industrial version will continue to be overhauled for many years - both of which are very similar.

It's a shame but I presume it's just a risk that's not worth taking for them.

And quite rightly too, it's not a car engine, the parts and tooling will be long gone, and for what.. A stay of execution for a couple of years, could you imagine the millions it would take just to tool up alone to produce the spares, let alone to overhaul what, six engines?
It makes Rolls Royce sound the bad boys in all of this, but not only have they gone out on a limb giving the project design authority support, I also believe have backed that up with hard cash to support the VVTS. If they say the engines are done, then they are done.

[Gsxr600]

And quite rightly too, it's not a car engine, the parts and tooling will be long gone, and for what.. A stay of execution for a couple of years, could you imagine the millions it would take just to tool up alone to produce the spares, let alone to overhaul what, six engines?
It makes Rolls Royce sound the bad boys in all of this, but not only have they gone out on a limb giving the project design authority support, I also believe have backed that up with hard cash to support the VVTS. If they say the engines are done, then they are done.

Yes completely agree. However I don't believe the parts and tooling will be long gone due to other similar versions of the Olympus still being in use. Appreciate I'm making a pointless argument here, but think RR could do it I'd they wanted to and not at a ridiculous expense, but yes why should they. We had 8 years of displays let's be happy with that.

With regard to the spare engines at Wellesbourne - they are actually from XM603. Not quite sure how they are zero houred but maybe the group that looked after 603 managed to get them from somewhere. They were actually removed from 603 bit the Wellesbourne group though - so those engines were not baged and have lost their audit trail I think. One of them is actually on 655 now as they had a minor issue with one if 655s engines so swapped to one of these spares.

[GeeRam]

However I don't believe the parts and tooling will be long gone due to other similar versions of the Olympus still being in use.

Which part of RR haven't overhauled a Vulcan Olympus since 1982, do you not understand, and yes that does mean ALL the tooling and spares are long gone - they were long gone before '558 ended it's RAF display flying in the early 1990's!!

The Marine, Industrial engine connection is of no relevance, in the same way that a Meteor isn't relevant to a Merlin when it comes to flying.

[Gsxr600]

Which part of RR haven't overhauled a Vulcan Olympus since 1982, do you not understand, and yes that does mean ALL the tooling and spares are long gone - they were long gone before '558 ended it's RAF display flying in the early 1990's!!

The Marine, Industrial engine connection is of no relevance, in the same way that a Meteor isn't relevant to a Merlin when it comes to flying.

Ok thanks for that. I assumed that since the industrial power generation Olympus which is 201 core and is still overhauled must mean the tooling and spares do exist as the engine is very similar, wishful thinking I guess.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

So I take it that these guys would not have any of the non-existant spares, tooling etc?

RWG - Olympus Gas Generator (http://www.rwgroup.com/olympus)

(I realise they are not aero engine repairers, but they must get the bits from somewhere)

[Gsxr600]

Exactly what confuses me. I'm sure this company isn't certified to overhaul aero engines, but the power generation version is almost identical to the 202. I wonder if they actually bought the tooling from RR. I do know this company helped test one of the VTTS' engines on their test rig - the one that had metal filings found in the sump plugs - which would imply RR don't have any equipment left.

I know that RR was overhauling marine Olympus engines for the Navy but not sure if these units are anything like the 202.

If nothing else hopefully these guys could work on non flying engines to keep the remaining ground running Vulcans taxable for years to come.

[NutLoose]

Almost is as good as a mile, a Meteor tank engine is almost a Merlin, however the pistons etc are as a lot of the parts, manufactured differently, I think one is a casting where the other is forged..

It's cuckoo land to think just because there is a marine, pumping or generation version that they are one and the same engine, you do not require the same qualities from a ground based engine. Parts etc can be built from cheaper materials where weight is not a factor etc.

.

[The Oberon]

Having had first hand experience of industrial Avons initially serviced by RR and thence elsewhere, the performance and reliability differences would make me very wary of flying with a non RR serviced item strapped to my backside.

[Gsxr600]

Well thanks for the polite response NutLoose. Would make sense that the ground based units are not made the same although odd that power generation unit uses a 201 engine which was fitted to early Vulcans only difference to a 202 is the rapid start. Surprised they didn't pick a different version number if the parts and materials had been changed. Or maybe they did and the info I read is wrong!

Oberon, thanks for the info, pretty much what I suspected but nice to learn more about these technicalities.

[NutLoose]

Oddly enough I've seen a Lycoming crankcase that look identical to the aviation version, however cast on the inside face was airboat only, so one assumes it was a material difference.

[flipflopman RB199]

Gents, to help clarify and hopefully ward off a bunfight here, I'll throw in my 2p worth.

As someone who was involved throughout the restoration phase of XH558, I can tell you that all avenues have been explored regarding the overhauling of the engines. Whilst yes, you are correct in assuming that the marine Olympus is similar to the Aero Olympus, and both share the 202 mark designation, the materials of which both are made differ considerably. As you can perhaps imagine, a marine engine is static, weight is of no consequence and it also has to deal with quite a corrosive environment, guzzling as it does over 240lb of salty sea air per second! Because of this, extensive use of Stainless Steel and other heavy materials are used in the compressors and casings of the marine version, along with other changer unique to that variant.

The Aero Olympus is a little different and obviously weight is a prime factor in the choice of materials, hence aluminium alloys and magnesium alloys feature heavily throughout.

Similar, yes. Identical, no.

Regardless of this, although Rolls-Wood (or RWG) have the approvals and licence from Rolls-Royce to overhaul the marine version, they do not have the requisite approval to overhaul the aero version, even if a supply of spares were available, which they are sadly not. There is no conspiracy theory here, please believe me when I say that all of these avenues were explored in the very early days, just as I'm sure you would hope them to have been.

The change in time between overhaul from an hours basis, to a cyclic basis was done upon the insistence of Rolls-Royce, the design authority, and was a condition of their continued support. During the RAF service of the Vulcan, the engines had a 2000 hour life between overhauls. R-R, in keeping with the way that their civil fleets are now managed, insisted upon a cyclic life of IIRC 1200 cycles (in this instance a cycle being one excursion from idle-max-idle) which, following some number crunching regarding average throttle movements per display and transit, worked out to around 1600 hours. To assist in trying to squeeze as much life as possible from this cyclic limit, Aerobytes fitted telemetry and engine monitoring software to work out the cycles and partial cycles as accurately as possible to ensure no cycle was wasted!

Aside from all of this is the major issue of safety. Please try and remember that these engines are certainly not the carefree handling and safe engines of today. They are of early 1950's vintage when failures were tolerated much more often than today as an unavoidable risk. Olympus engines suffered horribly throughout their life with rear bearing issues, and have RPM resonance bands that the engines cannot sit in for any length of time, lest they will vibrate theirselves to pieces! They are old engines that must be managed as such. Engine technology has come a long way, and safety must not be taken for granted. Rolls Royce are a company built upon a reputation of safety and reliability and make their money by selling safe, reliable engines to airlines to transport us all around the globe without fear of the engines spoiling our day, hence they will always err on the side of caution where old engines are in question. The fact that they have given as much support as they have, is pretty remarkable and is something for which we should be grateful, not critical.

Hopefully that's cleared up a couple of issues, I should add that I am in no way an official mouthpiece for Vulcan to the Sky, I was simply someone who was around at the time that these questions were being asked and was party to some of the answers!! :ok:

Flipflopman

[Gsxr600]

Thank you for such a detailed response. That's cleared up my confusion and is really what I suspected but hoped might not be true!

Any insight on the Doncaster plan? I think I share some scepticism about the sense retiring to Doncaster rather than Bruntingthorpe or Elvington where she would be among her Victor sister and other cold war types, as well as being more accessible than an active airport? That's assuming the people at Bruntingthorpe or Elvington would want her.

[flipflopman RB199]

Gsxr600,

I'm sorry buddy, I've been away from 558 for some time now, so have no knowledge of the future plans for the aircraft other than that which is in the public domain. I have my own opinions, which are probably not too far from that of most other people with regard to Bruntingthorpe or Elvington, however, I'm not in full possession of the facts, so opinions are all that they'd be. :ok:

Flipflopman

[manxman57]

There is no point in it going to Elvington as there is very little original taxiway for parking the victor and sometimes nimrod on it. the piece that runs from the gate onto the airfield to just past the hangar is original taxy from WW2 with Tarmac covering. the hangar floor is not strong enough to take big jets and any case it if for the use of other exhibits. The hard standing to both ends of the hangar is of the same construction. They are expecting the delivery of a Mirage IV in the near future. Access to the airfield is not always available. No storage for Vulcan spares etc.

[Gsxr600]

True, but I would have hoped some funding could be raised to put up a hanger and improve facilities etc either at Elvington or Bruntingthorpe. Assumes of course planning permission wouldn't be an issue which I think it has been at Bruntingthorpe over the years.

I'm sure the VTTS has XH558s best interests at heart and I'm in possession of very few of the facts (selfishly I would like her to go to Bruntingthorpe as its not too far from me and I remember how close I could get to her on taxi runs on the 1990s). I do hope the supporters are given the chance to feed back their thoughts on the future home of 558, or at least given enough information as to why Doncaster is the best choice.

[Chris_H81]

Elvington has a serious NIMBY issue which might also curtail any plans, pretty much all motorsport events there have been stopped for example.
Clearly some local residents have very short memories, wasn't that long ago that an endless stream of Jet Provosts would do touch & goes there most days and they weren't quiet!

[Gsxr600]

Elvington has a serious NIMBY issue which might also curtail any plans, pretty much all motorsport events there have been stopped for example.
Clearly some local residents have very short memories, wasn't that long ago that an endless stream of Jet Provosts would do touch & goes there most days and they weren't quiet!

I think Bruntingthorpe had similar problems with neighbours in the past although it seems to be a hive of industry these days. Would take a very strong argument to convince me Bruntingthorpe isn't where xh558 should end up especially as without the Waltons she wouldn't have flown again after retirement.

[sooty655]

In reply to Wycombe (#22) ~
Many thanks for the kind words. We try to be as welcoming as possible to all visitors to XM655 at Wellesbourne. You are correct that our two "zero hours" 301s would be unsuitable for XH558, but they would also be unacceptable as they have no paperwork whatsoever. One of them doesn't even have a nameplate with the engine number so getting CAA or RR agreement would be a non-starter.


In addition to Flipflopman's explanation (#33), the Industrial and Marine engines also have different (larger) main bearings, a somewhat different oil system, revised internal sealing and cooling and a completely different fuel system compared to an aero 200 series. I suspect that the turbine throat areas are also different, but I'm not sure on that (it was all a long time ago).

[GeeRam]

Would take a very strong argument to convince me Bruntingthorpe isn't where xh558 should end up especially as without the Waltons she wouldn't have flown again after retirement.

What about the argument that Brunty doesn't want it.......


(which is the rumour going around)


Anyway, VTTS have already made the decision, it's ending it's flying days at Fininngley.....and I doubt there's anything or anyone that can change that decision.

[Gsxr600]

Surprised to hear that rumour. There is a facebook page someone has set up about bringing her to back to Bruntingthorpe and a comment from Denis Parker (who I used to see a lot back in the 90s at Brunty events), that its a HLF requirement which rules Bruntingthorpe out. Seems all very odd to me, if they have a Victor, VC10, Comet, Nimrod, Lightenings, Bucaneers etc, then a Vulcan seems to fit right in. The open days are already fantastic, an addition of a Vulcan would be even better - and getting a hanger built for all of them would be a great use of funds.


Well maybe if Wellesbourne gets redeveloped 655 could be move to Brunty by road, or even if Doncaster doesn't work out, 558 could be moved at some point in the future. Possible, but expensive:


Vulcans in Camera - bwc Frameset (http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/XL318_dismantling/index.htm)

[RileyDove]

'Anyway, VTTS have already made the decision, it's ending it's flying days at Fininngley.....and I doubt there's anything or anyone that can change that decision.'

I thought it was the 'People's Vulcan' ! Don't the people who have paid the wages all these years have any voice?

[Always a Sapper]

I thought it was the 'People's Vulcan' ! Don't the people who have paid the wages all these years have any voice?


Did they ever really have a voice?







Sorry, couldnt resist that one.... :E

[Courtney Mil]

Once you donate to any charity you leave it up to them to spend the money. Always worth finding out what a charity does before donating. Donating to RNLI doesn't make you an employer or a shareholder.

[The Oberon]

I don't care about the politics but it looked bl**dy good over Scampton about 10 mins ago.

[Wander00]

Amongst the "what if's" must be "what if it goes u/s other than at RH?" Aah, did I hear an elephant trumpet................

[Preon]

It is hard to accept is that this is 558's final year and it's displays will be missed, but arguably the most two historically significant Avro Vulcans have been sitting outside for a number of years.
XM597 at East Fortune and XM607 at Waddington both 'Black Buck ' veterans of the The Falklands campaign cannot survive indefinitely exposed to the UK climate.
607 has received some TLC but surely deserves a climatically controlled environment to arrest further corrosion?

[GeeRam]

607 has received some TLC but surely deserves a climatically controlled environment to arrest further corrosion?

Have heard whispers that the corrosion on '607 is quite bad already, and it's possibly already past the point of no return.....

Never understood why '607 wasn't the a/c earmarked for RAFM Hendon, although.

[Liffy 1M]

Never understood why '607 wasn't the a/c earmarked for RAFM Hendon, although.

XL318 had already been dismantled and transported to Hendon in Feb/March 1982, which was before the Falklands War. Its full history is here:
http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/82-A-393-Vulcan-B2-XL318.pdf