Familiarisation Flights

[Fallows]

Ladies and Gents,

I am a civilian ATC "bod" at Swanwick. We speak to military transport aircraft all the time ie C130s, VC10, Tristars when they fly in the airways system. My question is "What are the rules for carrying Civil ATC staff on Fam flights, are there any rules? and if it is possible how does one go about it?
Any ideas?

Tony Fallows

[BEagle]

Speak to your oppos at Lon Mil and get them to contact the CRO at Brize or Lyneham.

Personally I'd be delighted to take you flying - but even more the bug.gers from Lon Mil who won't $hut up and stop their intrusive and unnecessary yak when we're on a busy towline.....

[Avoiding Action]

Boom (or is that "hose") frequencies - in my humble opinion definitely the way ahead BEagle.

[BEagle]

Definitely NOT!! ATC simply have to learn when to SHUT THE F*** UP!! It wasn't a problem 10 or 20 years ago, but is truly appalling these days! "Err, what is your list of receivers.....err, what are your intentions on leaving? (I'll tell you in 30 minutes when I do - if you haven't already knobbed off for coffee)"

The rot started when someone put a radio in the Watch Office 60 years ago....

"Squawking7000toenroutegoodday............"

[Avoiding Action]

Fallows - sorry to hijack your thread fella...

BEagle - I'm not deliberately trying to provoke - I am interested. I presume by "ATC" you mean all controllers, or do you find your experiences with Fighter Controllers significantly different (better OR worse) from our ATCC brethren?

I agree totally that controllers shutting up is the way ahead - the less "unnecessary" stuff I say the happier you'll be. If you're happy, you're usually more cooperative about things like going tactical for planning and therefore I'm happy... However, I've controlled tankers in the recent past in minging airspace with my supervisors asking me endless questions about the tanker's intentions, fuel giveaway etc etc. I try to filter most of these out, but when a direct order is given to ask the question, there's little I can do. The flip side, and here I'm paraphrasing your eloquent statement, is that I know quite a few controllers who's understanding of your workload up there leaves a lot to be desired - as you say, a trip up to the towline is an education.

Despite all that, there have been times on busy tankers when I know I've been talking a lot. On these occasions it's obvious that controller, tanker flight deck and chicks are all struggling to transmit what needs to be transmitted on a single frequency. Isn't a hose frequency the answer in this scenario? If not, why not? Is there some safety reason against it?

Genuinely interested in what you think.

[BEagle]

To provide an efficient AAR service to our 'customers', we need to be able to operate with flexibility, we need the air picture and we need other relevant information. We do not need stupid 'check list of receivers', 'what are your intentions on leaving (in 30 minutes time)', 'approaching the end of the towline', 'is FL 190 now clear'... and other unnecessary ATC calls.

Why can't more ATC and/or SOC folk LISTEN to what is said and make a note of it. So often something is said which we've all understood on the AARA, then some ATC numpty asks the very same thing because he hasn't listened....

The acquisition of 'air picture' is an art which is developed from listening to all RT and making appropriate allowances. Until we all have JTIDS and don't need to use UHF RT so much, we need short pertinent RT exchanges, not the sort of 'cover-my-ar$e' nonsense which I recently got from Jock Mil who tried to give me avoiding action on the tanker we were completing a RV'D' upon! We are usually operating under RIS and will be happy to react to relevant stranger calls, not 'traffic is left 10 o'clock, 2 miles......3000ft above and climbing'.

Oh - and keep corner-cutting civvies well clear of AAR activity please. Rules of the Air require that 'aircraft towing things' (e.g. a tanker conducting AAR) have priority over those which aren't - including some civvie trying to get a quicker approach into Newcastle under RAS seemingly expecting minimum disruption to his revenue driven request. Just vector the bug.gers well clear rather than asking us to move the formation 'for co-ordination' just to let CheapoJet shave 5 minutes off his airborne time........

Most ATCOs and even some Neatishead folk do a good job, but others sadly do seem to worry more about 'ATC administrivial RT' than providing a useful service. Please try to come flying with us and we'll show you what we mean! I once took a senior Fighter Controller (then working at MoD) with us on a North Sea tanking trip; she was appalled at some of the RT and said "Why are they talking so much - don't they listen? I would have had them in the office for that sort of service!"

But AD and AAR crews moaning about Fighter Controllers has always been a breed characteristic - one Part 2 TacEval we were told before the evaluators turned up that we had to be nice about Neatishead. So when asked, we held imaginery guns to our ears and replied in a monologue "SOC provide a good professional service. We have no complaints". They got the message.......

[Aunt Rimmer]

BEagle - ever been for a look round ScACC ? Sure some folk talk a lot (pilots never do) but (speaking as an ex-RAF ATCO) there is a bigger picture, and there may be landline co-ordination and other traffic behind the scenes you are unaware of - you ain't the only guy in the sky - but I guess you know that with chicks in tow.

All it takes is someone garbling a squawk, or one non-squawker, and 5 miles separation on a 100mile range radar display can look pretty close. It's not quite that straight forward. Then again it was a lot easier with the old yankee F111s, cos' at least hey did what they were told ;)

Generally most towlines are well away from CAS, although a few cross the ADRs (W2D, A1D, W6D), but I wouldn't ask you to move a towline for the odd Easyjet. Perhaps the odd early turn wouldn't hurt, but from where I stand (witnessing the last weeks JMC) I think the towlines got a pretty good uninterrupted service.