Language and Rank

[Flash2001]

In the course of identifying what I thought was an error in protocol during the recent ceremonies in The Netherlands I found that RCAF enlisted personnel formerly called Aircraftmen, and later Privates, of various grades are now called Aviators. WTH??
What is happening to our language?

OBTW I was wrong about the protocol error but still, Aviator?

After an excellent landing etc...

[Wensleydale]

Aircraftsman? How sexist!

[goudie]

Aircraftsman? How sexist! So is Aviator. Will women be called Aviatrix ?

[brakedwell]

So is Aviator. Will women be called Aviatrix ?

Just call them chicks :}

[Jambo Jet]

Flightdeck or cockpit?

[BBadanov]

Cockpit or Boxroom ?

[Tankertrashnav]

In the RAF AC stood for Aircraftman (no 's' ), and still does as far as I know, but it is frequently rendered in error as Aircraftsman.

Certain logic about the rank as in the early days of the RAF many ACs (and LACs) worked on aircraft, but very few, if any, were aviators, so let's hope the RAF doesn't follow suit.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

The Canadians started down the slippery slope with this aircraft (http://www.bush-planes.com/DeHavilland-DHC-2-Beaver.html)..

[BBadanov]

...which is named after the Canadian mammal - a national emblem.


That makes them the only people to eat their national emblem.

[brakedwell]

That makes them the only people to eat their national emblem.

and shave it!

[Pontius Navigator]

Lots of people eat it.

[BBadanov]

...and that's not even mentioning the other DHC product, the Twotter.

[clunckdriver]

It all started when the forces were intergrated under an ex -corporal named Paul Helyer, he also made the uniforms green, a clasic waste of money and effort. I thank my lucky stars I was long gone by then having seen the way things were going.Since then cooler heads have returned to Blue for the RCAF, {which had been re-named under the previous government} however rank is shown by gold rings, not Blue, makes them look like hotel doormen. "If God meant the army to fly, he would have made the sky Brown!" became an oft repeated lament in the mess during this period.

[Flash2001]

Have to agree with Clunk. I got out at the right time too. How did Hellyer ever make it to Corporal?

After an excellent landing etc...

[goudie]

When the Canadian Forces adopted army ranks for all services, back in the '60's, the joke about the Navy was 'Now hear this, now hear this, this is your Colonel speaking!'

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember the changeover when I was at nav school. One of our instructors, an RCAF exchange officer called Flt Lt Jaeger went home one Friday in his blue uniform and reappeared as Captain Jaeger the following Monday in his shiny new green uniform.

[The Oberon]

Heading back to Goose after some leave in Toronto, Canadian GP at Mosport followed by US GP at Watkins Glen, I had to night stop at Trenton, changed into No1 and went to the mess, someone said " Christ, a blue job!". Didn't buy a drink all night, only just made the Goose resupply RCAF C-130 the next morning.

[Rossian]

....I had a similar reaction when I went to buy a picnic table kit at MacMaster's sawmill in Greenwood NS. The boss had been in Bomber Command I think during the war. Was given a really good deal because I was wearing "a proper Air Force" uniform. It lasted for 25 years (the table I mean).

The Ancient Mariner

[condor17]

Gents may i commend to you ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w_v0k57KhE

by The Fretless Bar Girls

rgds condor

[NutLoose]

That makes them the only people to eat their national emblem.

Well, bar the Welsh of course and their leek...
and I should imagine several of these also make it to the pot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_animals

[Wander00]

NL - are you being deliberately slow.......................or do I just have a coarse sense of humour? Hat, coat

[ursa_major]

Certain logic about the rank as in the early days of the RAF many ACs (and LACs) worked on aircraft, but very few, if any, were aviators

TTN, throughout the Second World War trainee pilots going through EFTS and SFTS were LACs. That's a fair number that could be considered aviators, and judging by the quantity of F1180s with that rank on as pilot i/c, a reasonable number who were borderline...

I would assume that they were promoted to Sergeant at the point they were awarded their wings.

[NutLoose]

One has standards Wanderer, some of the Canadian women I met I wouldn' go near with a knife and fork, let alone anything else.
:p

[NutLoose]

LAC aircrew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav
Certain logic about the rank as in the early days of the RAF many ACs (and LACs) worked on aircraft, but very few, if any, were aviators

TTN, throughout the Second World War trainee pilots going through EFTS and SFTS were LACs. That's a fair number that could be considered aviators, and judging by the quantity of F1180s with that rank on as pilot i/c, a reasonable number who were borderline...

I would assume that they were promoted to Sergeant at the point they were awarded their wings.

There was a fascinating article in Flypast or Aeroplane of late regards AC 1 and 2 ranked gunners on Battles during the early part of the war, very few of the crews survived or made it out of Europe and back to the UK as they were shot down in droves, one of them a now seasoned combat experienced AC was amazed upon managing to get back to the UK to find all the newly qualified air gunners that came out to the aircraft were now Sgts.
The AC gunners were often drawn from the engineering staff and after missions had to carry out their normal trade work :eek:

[Wander00]

ISTR that as "Officer Cadet"s at the Towers we were enlisted as "Aircraftmen", of which class I know not, and I guess we were paid even less - what did an AC get in the early 60s - we got £5 a week I recall

[ursa_major]

The AC gunners were often drawn from the engineering staff and after missions had to carry out their normal trade work

The youngest casualty in the Battle of Britain that I've found whilst researching accidents round here was AC2 Norman Jacobson who was killed when Blenheim L1330 of 29Sqn was shot down by an enemy aircraft off Wainfleet Haven on August 25th 1940. Some sources have him as being the AI operator, others as an air gunner. He was 18 years old and had joined 29 that morning.

[Tankertrashnav]

Point taken about WW2 flying ACs and LACs, but I was thinking back to the early days of the RAF when the rank structure was formed. For a short period after its formation, the RAF retained army officer ranks, and ORs in technical trades below the rank of corporal were classifed as Air Mechanic 1st and 2nd class. The AM2 had no rank insignia, AM1s wore a red two-bladed prop, similar to the later LAC. I believe that ORs in non-technical trades were still classified as Privates, but I may be wrong. I did once own an early RAF LS & GC (George V issue) which was named to a "Sergeant Major, RAF" - that must have been a very short lived rank.

Wander00 - when I was at OCTU in 1964 I was paid as an AC (AC1 and AC2 having been merged earlier). It had risen to the dizzy heights of £1 a day by then, but as I joined straight from school it didn't seem bad to me!

[Wander00]

I worked in Sainsbury's the summer (62) before I joined the RAF - the £8 a week they paid me just about paid for 2 hours flying a very tatty J1 Auster kept in the back of a hangar at White Waltham. WLAC let me have it at half price to go to Rearsby to collect a tailplane for them!