$40,000 PLUS Cessna 182 Upgrade

[Dick Smith]

Those who are more informed may be able to help me with this.

I understand that when Airservices remove the VORs and NDBs as planned, IFR aircraft will need to go to TSO146 GPS units – that is allowing sole means of navigation rather than the present TSO129 primary means.

This is all very well, however the costs seem incredible. I am told that the kit from Cessna for a 182 is USD29,600 then adding the installation and converting to Australian dollars it will be something like $40,000 to comply. That’s a lot of money. Then again, not as much as the $140,000 for my CJ3 or the $200,000-plus for many other aircraft.

Can I be advised if flight schools using Cessna 182s are planning for this $40,000 per aircraft investment or have I been misled?

Most importantly, was there a proper Regulation Impact Statement done for this showing this $40,000 cost?

Or should we get Airservices to keep the VORs and NDBs?

[swh]

Dick,

You seem to bring this up every other month.

There is zero reason you have to go via Cessna, if you are made of money and want to do it, good for you.

I have previously told you about a company in the EU that has an STC for the avionics in the CJ3, did you bother contacting them ?

[Squawk7700]

1973 C182P and 1964 C182G

It's ridiculous when you see that written down.

Doesn't the automotive taxi industry mandate that vehicles can't be more than 8 years old?

1973 is the equivalent of an XY Falcon, unbelievable when you think about it. As for the 1964, I'm not old enough to even work out what was being driven back then. Scary thought really.

Apologies for the off-topic comments.

[c100driver]

One of the problems with a Flight Management Solution for G1000 type equipment is the you are often required to purchase from the OEM to get the certification in the AFM.

Legacy aircraft are peace meal solution capable with mix and match avionics.

[peterc005]

If $40k bought you a Garmin 430 or 530 and a Mode S transponder upgrade it would be worthwhile. It'd expect this type of upgrade to cost around $40k.

[swh]

One of the problems with a Flight Management Solution for G1000 type equipment is the you are often required to purchase from the OEM to get the certification in the AFM.

Legacy aircraft are peace meal solution capable with mix and match avionics.

There is an avionics shop in Brisbane been adding 3rd party waas data sources into G1000 equipped C208s for years without going near Cessna.

Any applicable stc can be inserted into an AFM, it does not need to come from the manufacturer.

G1000 equipped Cessnas normally are straight forward to get a waas data source to the transponder.

To get my aircraft done, I sent the garmin gps back to garmin, paid some cash and it returned as waas gps, changed antennas, replaced the garmin tradponder with a trig, and now ADSB.

Biggest expense was the garmin upgrade around 3.5k

[alphacentauri]

I understand that when CASA mandate PBN, IFR aircraft will need to go to TSO146 GPS units – that is allowing sole means of navigation rather than the present TSO129 primary means.

There you go, I fixed it for you. Lets make it clear, it is the introduction of the PBN mandate by CASA, that is the catalyst for Airservices wanting to decommission some of their ground based NAVAIDS.

Its CASA who have decided that GPS will be sole means IFR navigation, its CASA who have stated the equipage requirements for the mandate.

Now to the crux of your post Most importantly, was there a proper Regulation Impact Statement done for this showing this $40,000 cost? Well they didn't with any other regulation changes in the last 2 years.....

Or should we get Airservices to keep the VORs and NDBs?

You can try I guess...

Alpha

[c100driver]

To get my aircraft done, I sent the garmin gps back to garmin, paid some cash and it returned as waas gps, changed antennas, replaced the garmin tradponder with a trig, and now ADSB.

OK I see where your coming from, I was coming from the PBN side which requires a statement of ANP in the aircraft flight manual.

As an aside, in NZ if you want to keep an NDB at a certain location i.e. for training purposes then you have to pay the full direct costs of its operation.

[Jabawocky]

A GTN650 or similar and a suitable transponder including installation will not cost $40K for a C182, unless there is a whole hep of other work required which should have been done years ago.:suspect:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
If you think this is bad, wait 'till you see what CASA wants for Part 135 aircraft with 6 to 9 seats.
Tootle pip!!

[Dick Smith]

So by the look of it CASA did not perform the required Regulatory Impact Statement for this mandate. That means they did not comply with the law. Yet they expect others to comply with the law.

Most of the costs will go to the GA industry yet most of the savings will go to the Airline industry.

Power corrupts.

[Ultralights]

you make is sound like we still have a GA industry!

[Dick Smith]

Horatio. How about a suggestion on how I can be more effective?

I can easily afford any of these unique requirements but I really feel for the GA industry that can employ thousands.

[illusion]

Somehow I think that one of the wealthiest individuals in Australia crying to the media about a $200K avionics ungrade to his private jet won't carry much water......:=

[Horatio Leafblower]

Dick I sent a text to your mobile number seeking to engage you on the matter. I figured it was not as intrusive as a voice call but it would allow you to respond when you had time.

Feel free to call back.

Cheers.

[jas24zzk]

What's the point of preaching to the choir, Dick?

You have plenty of power and influence - the media will come running if you called.
No they won't. Unless Dick is talking about Australian Made, they are not interested in him. If he had 'the' power we wouldn't be having these discussions.

When you create a media circus and force the governement to call CASA to heel, when you use your influence and power for the good of others (not just CJ3 owners) I will believe this is about something other than self-interest.

I really disagree with this statement. Perusing Dicks comments on cost of compliance to himself(which he freely admits he can actually afford) he always consdiders the smaller operator's.....even if his numbers are out.
I take it that he looks at his costs and pairs that back to industry.

The best thing Dick could have done is DEMAND the skulls job, and gone back to public service.

[Creampuff]

How about a suggestion on how I can be more effective?You know what to do, Dick. You've done it before, except on a smaller scale and back when you were naive enough to believe the CASA Chairman and Board performed a meaningful role.

This time, track down a few Tony Windsor equivalents and run them against a number of sitting senior Coalition members in Federal electorates in NSW. Also have a quiet chat with John Howard (and Peter Costello :E ) about your plans.

You'll have ATCers in bunny suits and CASA shut down in the blink of an opinion poll - all in the interests of the safety of air navigation of course - if you create any material risk of undermining the Coalition power base in NSW and shifting it to their arch enemies in Victoria.

Alternatively, just buy a few Senators. :ok:

Remember: It's all about safety.

[Old Akro]

A GTN650 or similar and a suitable transponder including installation will not cost $40K for a C182, unless there is a whole hep of other work required which should have been done years ago.

Lets run the numbers..

GTN650 circa AUD$16,000
GTX330 ES circa AUD$3,500
Gray code altitude encoder circa AUD$1,000
Garmin compatible CDI (assuming the aircraft uses something like a King 155 Nav/com) circa AUD$3,000
Engineering orders (say 2) circa AUD$700
GPS roll steering for autopilot integration circa AUD$1,000
Installation & test flying say $5,000

Total $30,200

Decide to do a new audio panel at the same time, or require some additional autopilot interface work, or needing to significantly relay the radio stack because the GTN is taller than the (say) King KX155 that its replacing and you start to get close to AUD$40,000.

Australia is the only country in the world that is mandating ADS-B for ALL IFR aircraft in ALL airspace types at ALL levels in the world. While VFR that are exempt from ADS-B requirements aircraft are in the same airspace - there is NO safety benefit.

[Creampuff]

While VFR that are exempt from ADS-B requirements aircraft are in the same airspace - there is NO safety benefit.It must therefore be in the interests of safety of air navigation to ban VFR aircraft or extend the ADS-B mandate to them.

RIS with foregone conclusion to follow.

I’m feeling safer already. :ok:

[LeadSled]

When you create a media circus and force the governement (sic) to call CASA to heel, when you use your influence and power for the good of others (not just CJ3 owners) I will believe this is about something other than self-interest.
Horatio,
That's a nasty comment to make, as are your more recent, your tall poppycutter is showing.

There are few people I know who act more out of the interests of others, rather than for themselves, than Dick.

Aviation is not the only field where he is active, most of it you never hear about.

Don't forget (did you ever know?) that Dick and Pip donate well over $1,000,000 every year to charities and charitable work. As I read about it, close to $1,500,000 last year.

Dick had no silver spoons, no big (or small) inheritances, everything he has he worked for, I wonder how many tens of millions he has given away over the years, and that is in cash, it doesn't count the value of his time.

Overall, his efforts for aviation over those years have been about one thing, and one thing only, cutting away the stultifying bureaucracy and mountainous Australian unique "rules" that stifles Australian aviation, and has always done, and has demonstrably resulted in less safe outcomes, and let Australian aviation thrive.

Tootle pip!!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Sorry Leadsled - I have been on here a loooooong time (more fool me) and its always the same.... a rush outrage and then silence with no change.

I know Dick is a great bloke with a great many good works to his credit.

Cheers.

[LeadSled]

Horatio,
Dick has engineered change time and again, but it is the amazing power of what has become known as the CASA "iron ring" that, as time passes, things revert.

A good example, right now, is the steady reversal of what was put in place with Parts 21-35 in 1998, giving us exactly the same rules for design, certification and manufacturing as the US.

The hard core of CASA, the iron ring, hated the who idea, because it removed their power to bugger around any Australian manufacturer ( of components, the big market, not just whole aircraft) with Australian unique requirements. That's why all the main players work to FAA and/or EASA certification, not CASA, and that is despite the US/Australia Bi-Lateral Airworthiness Agreement.

What has been visited on Gippsland Aeronautics, now Mahindra, alone, is appalling. This operation will move offshore, because on-shore they are uncompetitive, as a result of the way CASA operates.

The whole NAS airspace saga over the years is the most obvious, the forces of ignorance ranged against having an efficient and economical ICAO compliant CNS/ATM have been immense, as a result we still have an inefficient and uneconomic system. The immense cost of ADS-B, with the industry paying, again for an Australia unique set of restrictions (have a look at the FAA or Eurocontrol ADS-B requirements) is already a killer.

Tootle pip!!