China Southern wannabes

[Glorifiedtruckdriver]

Hi all,

Just been in Guangzhou for the final stage of my selection and met alot of the 'recent' CSA joiners. Needless to say its VERY hard to find somebody happy or at all positive. Pretty much everything in the contract seems to be a lie from what i am told. The 777 fleet seems to be a nightmare which is where i was going so i think i will give it a miss after hearing all this. 1 year training for Non type rated on training pay and incredibly about 6 months training aswell for the current and rated guys joining. Seems CSA have issues releasing foreign Capts to the line. Guys in line training told me that they even fly now with normal line Captains and not instructors(is that even legal) so they dont get a chance for any handling and therfore no closer to Line check. Vicious circle. Therefore with all this extra training time, the opening of bases(still non existent) is significantly delayed which is the reason everybody joined in the first place.

Anyway thought i would pass on the information as im glad i met these guys and convinced me to stay put where i am and not take the CSA plunge....

All the best

[chinafly]

Thanks for telling it how it is.

Hopefully if the word gets out it will stop guys making life changing career decisions that they might regret for years afterwards.

Good luck with your future endeavours. :-)

[coldastone17]

So what rating you have dude? Not even considering?

[Glorifiedtruckdriver]

Im on the NG which is why i thought it was a good opportunity to try something else and stay in Europe. However after hearing all the stories, I dont think i have the energy or patience to put up with it for a whole year on reduced pay with limited time at home with the family.

Ill stay where I am. Its secure and i know what to expect which CSA is neither from what i heard.

All the best

[outside limits]

If you are coming to CSA for a command, forget it. Yes, they call you Captain and you wear four bars, but you're nothing but. The PIC is always Chinese and you basically do what he does'nt want to do. If he allows you a take off and landing somewhere that's under supervision and most cases if NTR he'll be sitting next to you in the RHS. If you don't mind relief duties and the 2nd CPT title, it's an easy job on the line. It's a constant need to stay healthy medically and prepare for simulators. But a PIC job on a wide body it is not.

[coldastone17]

Agree dude, family always a big factor. Enjoy!

[Viking101]

interesting news...

I am in the process of potentially applying for the DEC A330, however I hear their screenings are terrible?!

The sim is apparently crazy, and the medical is insane- heard about a guy who needed to give liver biopsi just to check alcohol consuption...

Any feedback on this at all?

[Heavy-Jet]

I am at one of the big ME 3 - looking for DEC A330 at CSA. Any help pls?

[Viking101]

CSA are supposed to be a ok employer, however the medical is still insane.

Also I start hearing more and more about applying as DEC but in reality you only become second in command-ish.

Are the agencies aware of this or they dont really care?

The pay seems great but I am not interested sitting as relief captain if I go for a DEC job.

Culture chock here?

[SkullFlyer]

Mr Gammon, are you flying for CSA now or what you just told is based in what you've heard about it ?
Kind regards.

Skull

[Flappy2]

What Gammon says is correct from first-hand experience..

Did he mention the f&$king SMOKING IN COCKPIT, as if the environment in China wasn't polluted enough, despite them have NO Smoking 🚫 Signs everywhere, even at flight check-in.

Funnily enough the CAAC seem to disregard the own rules about smoking even though it is a "serious" offense, but don't lose your Crew ID (CAAC Boarding Pass) then the chain smoking official at the CAAC and his 2 pack a day colleague at CSA will ground you with no pay for 90days..:D

intrestingly they don't even realize how obvious the smell is on themselves as they waltz through the international terminals stinking like an ashtray.. :ugh:

[de facto]

1 million chinese a year die of smoke related disease/cancer.
Always a price to pay.

[Viking101]

Incredible.

Seems CSA are years behind the evolution airline industry.

Money looks good but after reading all of this, it's clearly not worth it at the moment.

How is it possible that even being type rated the training is 6months? That's dumb. NTR 1 year training is a waste of time too.

I was hoping to join CSA and base myself in Australia, but I'm too old for going back to the right seat albeit wearing 4 stripes.... And having someone all over the controls when I'm flying then there would be a slight CRM issue developing in the flight deck :mad:

[mach85]

Mr GF speaks the absolute truth in his post of how it is to work for CSA. No BS just an insight into the life at CSA for expats.

If you are an Aussie or have your heart set on living on Australia and you are Airbus rated then it seems that you could have yourself a nice stable life at CSA.

Unfortunately for the rest of us things are not quite so rosy. The 787 guys had a base open in AKL for 1 month before being closed. They are now enjoying a base in Vancouver for the last few months but that is due to close in March when the route changes to a 777 and therefore they are all back to CAN based commuting............again!!! When you look at the commuting option in CSA you will see that there are numerous better offers out there with higher salary, more days off, guaranteed business class for commuting, month on month off options etc etc. None of which CSA offer. Sure the money is good in CSA but it is by NO means one if the best anymore. They justify this by saying that they have the RSP(out basing) option which the others dont offer. This is true BUT the bottom line is that other than Australia, they cant seem to make an RSP work. The bases either close or as Mr GF already mentioned, turn from AMS base to an EU base overnight where you are your own travel agent booking tickets all over Europe at your own expense to then find out that your flight has been changed AGAIN, for no reason other than the fact that they just cant leave the roster alone once 'published' so you are now arriving back to a different airport so the ticket you booked is lost, again........just like that. Reimbursement you say............noooooo!!!

So in short if your Australian, Airbus rated and dont need your ego massaged on a daily basis then this can be a good option for an easy life and good money.

For the rest of the Europeans or Boeing rated then think long and hard what you want before signing up with CSA. Sure it COULD be a great job, but what is required behind the scenes to turn that fantasy into a reality might take longer than most of us have the patience to give this job.

Cheers all,
85

[Flappy2]

Mach 85 is correct with a caveat - a lot but not all of the Aussie RSP based guys, are on LOA from Qantas, so for them it is a money making exercise (while the rate of exchange works in their favour) with an exit strategy already planned..

For the rest, who don't have that luxury (LOA), the unrealized potential and silliness of how things operate, add an additional layer of stress on top of that for loss of medical risks, draconian punishments (lightening strikes etc)
(This Delta Crew would have been severely punished Delta plane hit by lightning - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/08/20/travel/delta-lightning-strike-atlanta-airport-feat/))
and training... Where to start? And you have many frustrations, including the fact that A320/737 jobs in China pay more as MACH suggested..

To be fair some of it is on the CAAC, who are run by sycophantic apparatchiks, who have no understanding of what a pilot actually does...

Anyone care for a cigarette? :ok:

[joe falchetto 64]

Ah ah ah... Here in China there is no easy place for WB captains. I enjoy the job as A 320 captain: more money , more vacations , better contracts,

[Plastic fantastic]

Many pilots like ' flights of fantasy'.

When reality shatters the dream, the first move is to bitch and whine in order to get what they want; make reality into their dream. When that doesn't work, they tell the company that it doesn't know what it is doing and that the individual has the solution all mapped out ready for the company to accept. This plan always ends up being ( co incidentally) best for the individual but, not necessarily good for anyone else.
Big mistake in Asia and probably everywhere else.
You are there because it suits some plan , not because they need or want you.

Personally, I have had an easy time.
Very short flight training( 3 flights) , generally flown with gentlemen.
Suppose it was because I have a bit of experience.
Often take off and land ; more than I care to.
There are two crews so the work has to be shared.
I have no need to get my ego massaged.
Have signed documents before take off so, perhaps I have been PIC ..... do I care?
Heavy crew so , I only work half the duty...... That's good.
No stress about fuel, schedules.

I would suggest that those who are complaining on Prune have transitioned from narrow body and the trainers are making inputs because they don't trust the trainee or like what he is doing.
Training techniques are very different from Western airlines as is language and that is probably why they prefer experienced pilots who don't need training.
If you need someone to hold your hand, maybe not the place for you.

Problems with basing/commuting should be sorted out with your agency, not the company or bitching on Prune.
Your version of the truth may not be the same as another's.

If you don't like it, or you don't get resolution or can't stand it, you should vote with your feet.
You could even consider moving to China or moving to domestic fleets and get even more money! Before you do that, I would take a moment to work out why you would get more money to fly smaller aircraft ,domestically. Got to be a reason for it.

[twentyyearstoolate]

Nice to hear another viewpoint Plastic fantastic.

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience/viewpoint!:ok:

[Flappy2]

Hmm just 3 flights, even as a DEC, as some of us are, seems awfully quick...

Attempt is not to start a fight on my part..

Absolutely agree life is what you make it, but always nice to know what life to expect.. but your suggestion to sort out bases etc with the agency, of course the agency is the conduit through which to channel complaints, but only the airline can sort out the issues and sometimes there seems a disconnect between what the agency says should happen and the reality on the ground..

With respect to what GF, Mach or myself suggested, wouldn't suggest that is the experience of 100% of the guys, but certainly a lot of the guys.. As I alluded some of the delays are outside the airline's control ( I think CSA are equally frustrated), my only observation, however, whereas expats must be mindful of the culture of the country/Airline they are in, respect is earned when that cultural sensitivity is reciprocal especially in light of the incorporation of expats into the operation..

From a personal viewpoint, CSA has some experienced guys, whether NB or WB rated previously, with former Base Managers, Instructors, Safety Managers, Recruitment Pilots etc perhaps they could select an expat pilot rep(s) to form a signal channel of dialogue, rather than a dozen agencies trying to feed info (info overload/ analysis paralysis).

Anyone for a cigarette :ok:

[Plastic fantastic]

I did not want to be drawn into this but, here goes.

Flappy2,


I was incorrect about my training flights; It was 3 days of 2 sectors = 6 in total.
I am sorry to mislead you.
They were happy with the standard, I met whatever minimum there was and then passed the Check , which was a couple of days later.
I have to say that I found it easy , say no more.

There was a bit of a delay before I started and I was offered another fleet but, I could see that there would be long delays along that route and decided to wait and do what I know how to do.
Turned out to be a wise move, I think.

On your idea about Expat Pilot group representatives, it is an old idea that has never happened in any Asian airline that I have worked for.
It is their cricket set and it will stay that way.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

There is a lot going on in the company, in a country where change is slow at best and maybe almost non existent . It may take decades or never come good.

I have heard of the penalty culture but, I have never been penalized nor have I heard of anyone who has been.
Perhaps someone can present some one who has.

Never had any problems with QAR and I consider myself to be a "competitive" flyer.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Gammon,

I am not going to bother countering or arguing because I can see that I will never change your thinking.

You appear to be in pain.

I have but one question.

If it is so bad at CSA, why are you still there?

All the best to both of you.

[Plastic fantastic]

So, how much more money would it take for you to accept the situation and just do your job?

[Chuck Canuck]

#23 (permalink)
Mr Gammon Flaps

Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: .
Posts: 170
Money.......

Regarding countering or arguing; I don't want you to. What I have stated above are just facts, nothing more.

18th Oct 2015, 23:47 #24 (permalink)
Plastic fantastic

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Here and there
Posts: 45
So, how much more money would it take for you to accept the situation and just do your job?



How about walking the streets at Kings Cross SYD? Good money too!:E

[Plastic fantastic]

Chuck Canuk,
I tend to agree with you ( if I get your meaning right).
I was ( in the words of Shaw and /or Twain) 'merely discussing price 'with Gammon.
A whore is a whore is a whore.
The wost is the kind that takes the money,then bitches about the customer while claiming all along to be 'hollier than thou'.

Gammon,
Nice to hear you admit your self interest in your 'facts' about CSA.
It appears to me that you would discourage others from investigating employment in an attempt to dry up the interest in CSA only to try and improve your lot at CSA.
What a nice guy you must be to work with. Stirling stuff.

Btw, do you really believe that there is only one airline in the world that smokes?
I can name 3 or 4 outside of China.


Now, why do I care?

Well ,there are many at CSA ( over all fleets)who are content and I am sure that there are others who would be content to work there as well.
May be we are not all professionally and emotionally fulfilled but, content.
I acknowledge that some are not happy and some even livid.
I was speaking to two 777 pilots ,just a week ago ,who are happy but, I understand that you are not.
Every airline has its problems and ,whether they know this or not, they certainly don't want to be told this by foreigners.
It appears to me that you don't realize this.

What is not needed is someone who would risk the success of the expat employment program for his own benefit. After all , it is the high salary in China that will drive up the worldwide remuneration not a lower salary with a tax free carrot.
Your actions threaten the livelihood of many as well as your own.
Do what you want with your own life but, leave mine alone.
Further, what do you know of life at 'real' airlines like Qatar and Etihad?
If you read the multitude of posts about Qatar , you would think twice about joining yet, I have friends there who are happy.
Try doing what your are doing there as see how long you last.

I have heard of 3 who left CSA and now want to return ( 2 went to your 'real' airlines )and ,a 330 pilot who didn't like the commute and left for more family time.

I see two options for you.
1.
Play their game, work hard and they will eventually clear you to fly without an instructor, if you can meet their standard.You will then eventually become a C and then D Class Cpt.
Maybe by then they will get some bases sorted.
Good thing is you will still get your 7 pieces of silver while you wait.

2. As the job doesn't suit you or, you don't suit the job, please leave.

In both cases and ,for the sake of those who are content,I suggest that you keep your opinions to yourself .


Personally, I wish you would choose option 2.

[Plastic fantastic]

I certainly hope it is your last word on Prune to get what you want ,regardless of what it might do to the others who work beside you.
As it turns out,I do have some experience With Asian airlines but,I don't have any cunning plans to force industrial change. I gave you my 2 point plan in my last post.
I try to be as content as I can in an industry that is not the one that I entered as a young man.
Gone is the professional standard, mutual respect, honest commitment , intestinal fortitude and comraderie of old. Replaced by people only interested in scamming the system for their own benefit.
On the poor quality of life for Boeing pilots having to commute.
$2000 for a bit of last minute commuting to someone who makes around $ 20,000 p/mth? In my last job , I spent that much EVERY month on commuting. You were just pis-ed that people were cycled through Frankfurt ( there are no discount flights there) and were not able to use the EU 50 cheap ticket from Paris or wherever it was you had bought a cheap advance ticket from. As I say, I spent $24,000 per year on committing for 7 + years. My choice , no complaints...no Easyjet in Asia.
Before I to sign off, I would like to say that I was recently told by pilots on conversion training that one such pilot ( who I won't 'denigrate ' here) had a cunning plan and took it upon himself to present his 'manifesto of change ' to the company , spelling out how they should run their business. I was told that it was this 'loose cannon 'act that has infact has stuffed commuting for all the Euro based 777 pilots.

You wouldn't know if there is any truth in this or, know who this schemer might be Gammon,would you?
Don't answer, read my 2 point plan again.

[Savage175]

GF. I understand your disappointment, and in most ways CSA are there own worst enemy by making promises they either can't or have no intention of honouring. The agencies are not blameless in this either.

However, there are many of us here who are satisfied, or at least prepared to accept the status quo for the (mostly financial) rewards CSA has to offer.

PF is spot on here. And GF, most of your critiscisms are largely correct. However, this should be of no surprise to anyone here, as all the problems at CSA have been published numerous times, on PPRuNe and other forums. So if you are here you must have arrived with your eyes wide open. Which begs the question, why did you come here?

CSA have and still are addressing the problems here even if it is at a somewhat glacial pace. In my experience, they will listen to solutions and suggestions, but the implementation may well take a considerable time. If you want to stay here, then you need to accept that, or you will be perennially unhappy.

So, I echo PFs sentiments. Either accept the situation or move on.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Plastic and Savage I can see you have some serious "Stockhold Syndrome" going on here. Gammon is simply advising prospective future wannabees his opinion about the atrocities of Dark Ages being perpetrated by CS. It is a HUGE problem and they have to fix it ASAP or will attract ZERO Expats.

1. Smoking in the Cockpit- Stop
2. Being a cruise Captain and begging the PIC for a landing at his level and experience in aviation and professional experience.
3. Pay is falling farther and farther behind as Hainan has increased 787 pay to 25K and now even Xiamen offers 26K for a 737.
4. Training which lasts 1 year at 70% pay
5. Scheduling practices even Napoleon would have been proud of keeping everybody on a perpetual Stand-By Reserve system
6. Having to buy tickets to European gateway cities

I agree no place is perfect but please afford Mr. Gammon his right to express his opinion and in the meantime I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee and perhaps ponder your Stockholm Syndrome situation.

[Savage175]

WP - Stockholm Syndrome? If that's what you think then how do you categorise pilots who leave 'high paying legacy airlines' to join CSA when all the problems have been telegraphed almost ad nauseum on this and other forums. If you were here at the start then maybe your complaints would be justified. But if you have arrived since mid 2012 then you would or should have known what to expect. By all means continue to pass on information to 'wannabes', but when lobbying starts to impact negatively on those of us already here, then it becomes a problem.

[mach85]

Plastic,

Seriously. Get off your high horse and stop telling people who can and cant post on a public forum. I dont see you being a moderator.

The facts are that everything GF has posted is the absolute truth and no fiction so i dont see whats wrong with saying it how it is so future applicants have an idea of what to expect before appoying for CSA.

Nobody is denying that for some life is very acceptable at CSA but most of those are on the 330 RSP'd from Oz. Thats really great that it works out as it does for you guys but the bottom line is that things are not so rosy on the other fleets.

Couple of extra points:

How much money you earn is really irrelevant to how much you have to spend on commuting IF those expense were not expected. I think you will find that many people would not have taken this job if the RSP was going to be FRA. Many guys live driveable to AMS but not driveable to FRA/CDG/STN. This job is hugely different when you are not reliant on a connecting flight to your home city on landing at your RSP. I wonder how you would feel if CSA suddenly told you that you have to position yourself all over Oz at your own expense on your days off. Easy for you to say now when its not happening to you but i expect your feelings would be slightly different if it ever did happen.

Regarding type rated applicants or 'pilots with experience' as you call them as clearly you are 'one of those' who thinks that flying a WB is more challenging than flying a NB..........yawn!!!!
Anyway the last 2 'pilots with experience' joining the Boeing fleet..........1st one took 5 months to eventually get signed off and the 2nd one joined in July and is still training with no end in immediate sight so also 5 months for him i guess. Maybe these 2 just dont have the 'skill' that you seem to think that you possess but knowing them both well i strongly doubt that.
Therefore you can see that things are not the same on all fleets so letting us 'tell it as it is' for future applicants is what i would want if i was on the outside looking in and trying to make my decision whether to join CSA or not.

Cheers,

[Plastic fantastic]

Mach 85

You sound so much like Gammon that I wonder if he just swapped identities and continued to post.
If you infact are someone else, you haven't been paying attention. It was Gammon that said he wouldn't post any more, 'twas not I telling him.
In fact, it has been he that is playing moderator.
You go on with the the same old sh1te that he has been repeating.
It's stereophonic.

No job that I have ever had has been what I expected.
You only find out after you get there.
Really, you act like amateurs
It is embarrassing.
Have the decency not to act like the spoiled brats.
Things haven't worked out, be professional and deal with it like a man ,instead of acting like a child.

Don't throw your little tantrums on Prune to try and get your way.

If you are at a loss as to what to do, there is a cunning,two point plan;...Wear it or go home. The
Surely you could get another job that is 'drivable'.

You both talk about how good it is on the 330 and RSP out of Australia well, here's a thought that is outside of the square, why don't you swap to the 330 and move out to Australia!


Wait, you two wouldn't be 'Poms ' would you?
If that is the case, disregard the above suggestion because you would soon be complaining about that job as well.

[mach85]

Plastic,

You are so overly protective of your little vegetable patch it's frustrating!! And its more frustrating for the guys on the outside trying to get an objective view of life at CSA and especially on the Boeing-something you know nothing about.

Anyway I have better things to do than dispute the in's and out's of the job with someone who could double up as a CSA advertising banner.

Its funny as im actually quite content here overall and have recently recommended 2 ex colleagues here but that doesn't stop me being objective of the job. Something you also know nothing about.

If anybody out there is looking for info on life on the Boeing then feel free to PM me and ill give you all the info that i can.

Cheers all,

[Plastic fantastic]

Your last paragraph is music to my ears.
I don't care what you say privately.
I won't even respond to the moments about me.
It is however refreshing to see that you are now objective enough to say that you are content.
We at least have some common ground there.

True objectivity would have dictated mentioning that you are content along with your concerns about the place.

Personally, I hope that you do decide to ride out the rough times in the hope that things can get better.
You always can leave if you find it unworkable.


I can now go back and do things that may me happy rather than waste my time on this site.

[Plastic fantastic]

Mach 85,
Sorry one last thing.

You didn't comment on my idea about moving fleets and country.

I have moved country about 4 times in the last 12 odd years.

[WJAPilot]

While many of the current issues raised here are accurate Id like to discuss the issue of this job being called a "cruise captaincy"

I think its detrimental to anyone on this job to make these claims - each fleet while operated differently makes NO mention that those hired will in fact only be operating or occupying the seat only at altitude.

ICAO refers to a cruise Captain / Second Officer or in the case of Transport Canada here as a Cruise Relief Pilot (CRP) as a pilot who operates the aircraft only for the purposes of allowing the Captian and FO to take rest and may only occupy the seat above 10000ft.
https://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Pilot-Life-Story-Blog/63/Air+Canada+Boeing+767+RP

The PPC for the CRP intact doesn't even require them to show proffecincy in landing and t/o
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/regserv/cars/part7-standards-a72503-2164.htm

IFALPA further defines cruise captaincy which doesn't match the current position at CS..
http://www.ifalpa.org/store/14POS11%20-%20Cruise%20relief%20pilots.pdf

Forgive me If Im wrong but there remains an expectation at CS for you to complete 3 TO/LDGS every 90 days as stated in the FOM.

In addition recurrent sim training also covers those maneuvers that are both takeoff and landing based.

The FOM outlines progression from new hire captain up to instructor captain -

There are and have been cases of experienced captains stepping into the P1 role on the 77.

removing emotion from the equation - removing the fact that yes you have to ask to get in a landing and removing the emotion that this airline runs asymmetric to ones previous life does not constitute a cruise captaincy.

Suggesting such is only shooting oneself in the foot and will simply start to cause more issues when applying elsewhere -

Is it perfect no

But its not a cruise captaincy job.

This website is indeed a valuable tool for those interested in applying and pursuing positions at any airline but the facts indeed should be devoid of emotion, accurate and nonpartisan

Thanks to all those who contribute.

[cockpithumidifier]

WJA pilot,
so if it's not a cruise captain, what is it then?
Somebody mentioned the prospect of becoming a type C, or -good heavens- a type D captain. Then what does it mean to be a type A or B captain?

[SkullFlyer]

i really don't care about flying as a cruise. No vanity about it !
Let the chinese captain sign the papers!

[PT6Driver]

WJAPilot.

If you have to ask to do the landing then by definition you are not P1.
it maters not what ICAO or any one else chooses to define what a cruise captain is or what qualifications they have to have. The reality is that in practise you are a cruise pilot.

What I would request is that recent joiners give an idea of what the current practise is.

[WJAPilot]

Not going to get drawn into a long debate here -

Simple facts are - there are different levels of captains at CS

You are not walking In as a top level captain so you can "run the show"

There is opportunity to move up the captain ranks - but doing so probably means more domestic flying and the reality is no one wants that.

Cruise captains generally don't take off and land - in this job you do.

It is not unusual in many 4 crew airlines to have a discussion in the flight deck on who needs a landing for currency.

Thats it.

Safe Flying.

[cockpithumidifier]

I still don't get it.
So even after line training is finished you don't fly as a full captain (type C or D or aka the guy who runs the show)?? So basically they pay you all that serious money to be a glorified first officer? Is that somehow reflected in the number of stripes on your jacket? I'm not looking for a long debate either. I would just like to know what the deal is BEFORE i make any move.

[PT6Driver]

WJAPilot

Thank you for the explanations.

Or the benefit of those on the outside looking in, what are the different levels captain and what are their responsibilities/roles.
How does one move up the ranks?
Thanks

[av8r76]

We sacrifice and compromise a whole lot just considering the notion of moving to China. The eventual conclusion to such a debatable move would be what's next.
I guess what I'm trying to say is what is this going to look like in the logbook? The Chinese NTR game is quite new and eventually we will have a minor glut of guys who have navigated this maze of PIC categories. What exactly are their future employers going to look at when it comes time to tally the hours and the quality and category of experience that has been accumulated during their contract.
We are now dealing with a situation where we are blurring/redefining what a PIC can or cannot do. It might be well known in China but once folks decide to move on where will they stand in the grand scheme of things?

[WYOMINGPILOT]

The Tutti-Fruity flight time is nothing more than SIC flight time. Sadly, the Chinese PIC sometimes share/split the PIC flight time in their logbooks with EXpat pilots but this clearly won't float outside of China. There can be only one PIC, the man who signs the logbook and dispatch release papers as listed as the PIC. Korean Airlines and most of the more reputable recruiting agencies know this China Scam quite well. Korean Airlines sent a B-744 skipper packing last year due to questionable logging of PIC flight time in China so the airline and most recruiting agencies know of this sham. There are a handful of legitimate PICs on the A-330 who do sign the paperwork and are listed as the PIC of record on the paperwork but it rarely happens on the Boeing flights as the Chinese want to fly the shorter flights so ExPats are rarely used on short Domestic flights. Almost every application for every job you fill out will always state to only log PIC as the actual flight time where you signed for the aircraft. In China that rarely happens on International widebody flights. It may change as more Captains increase their longevity and experience or China Southern changes policies but for now its a glorified Cruise Captain job and not even too glorified as you beg for a landing or quietly cower in the corner as the 2 Chinese flying pilots rapidly bellow Chinese cigarette smoke all throughout the cockpit.

[wanabee777]

At my company, all 4 pilots sign the Dispatch Release.

Both Captains log the total flight time as PIC time.

Go figure...

[WJAPilot]

Wyoming,

You must simply copy and paste all your posts on this topic because they all have the same information simply repeating itself over and over

Your comments about "cowering" in the corner is an insult to all expats and especially those who work at CS and seem to enjoy the job just fine.

Theres No "scam" here.

Log the time in the seat and keep track of your take off and landings. Collect your money each month and keep a low profile.

When you become the official keeper and judger of what time is valid and what time is not ill be sure to send you my logbook for approval - until then your opinion like mine isn't worth two cents.

Its not rocket science.

[stampee]

Wyoming,

What is your beef against pilots joining CSA? You obviously are bitter and twisted for some reason. Could it be you have no escape from your present employer due to circumstances beyond your control?

I have been employed by CS on the B787 since the beginning it is the easiest money I have ever earned in my career. I fly with good guys to great destinations all with 4 pilots and do takeoff and landings basically whenever I want. I have never had to beg a PIC for a sector nor have I ever cowered in the corner breathing smoke or had to fetch a tea for the master PIC.

Is the job perfect at CS obviously not but which contract job is these days.
They have come a long way in improving their dealings with foreign pilots since I've been employed here. The A330 is a great fleet the B787 is getting to the point of being acceptable, I'm hearing the B777 has some issues at the moment.

Having said what I have I would never recommend any pilot quit an existing job for any Chinese Airline. LWOP, furlough or unemployed sure give it a try you may just stay longer then you think once you settle in to a routine and have figured out how to get along with everything and everyone in the system over here.

Cheers

[WYOMINGPILOT]

You are correct WJA it is not my nor your opinion that counts. I am simply pointing out what most professional Employers want as demonstrated by most reputable recruiting agencies regarding the logging of flight time. Employers (specifically airlines) only want to see PIC where you actually signed for the airplane. In scheduled ops, this means that CA logs PIC for the whole flight and no else logs any PIC. Again this is for employment purposes. If a company has 2 full crews and an inflight process dictated in their Ops. Specs. for inflight changes of PIC then that is an acceptable process.

Stampee I am sorry if I offended you or WJA that is not my intention. Advising others about potential pitfalls or unfavourable employment practices however, is my right to express my opinion on this forum. Mr. Gammon has laid it all out there for potential recruits. They can take it or leave it. Stampee I am quite content at my narrowbody job as I knew and understood how Chinese carriers have in the past and most likely will continue for at least several years regarding using ExPats as the PIC. The narrowbody pay also seems to be considerably higher now in China than most widebody jobs. This is because the bulk of the demand in China is for narrowbody pilots. I know Hainan has a new 787 contract that has pulled substantially ahead of CS. I know some of the A-330 guys at CS have a good gig going and if you are an Airbus guy from Australia that would be a good choice.

[highfive]

When the boys want a smoke, and if you are not interested, they are jolly decent about it and will ask you to excuse yourself to the cabin :ok:

US$20000/ month average tax free over 4 years now, is OK, more that Air China, but probably more disorganised. Hainan, good luck with that!

Gammon, no luck with Norwegian yet?

[CSAneggar]

So basically they pay you all that serious money to be a glorified first officer? Is that somehow reflected in the number of stripes on your jacket? I'm not looking for a long debate either. I would just like to know what the deal is BEFORE i make any move.


Would you rather be a Captain earning less than half the pay doing 6 flights a day at some :mad: low cost airline just so you can go home and write PIC in your logbook and tell people at parties your a hero? (This is why pilots terms are diminishing year after year :ugh:)

You are a Captain in CSA and I'm sure you can swap and do all the domestic flights you like as "Leader PIC". You can have mine!:ok:

Remember it's still a big transition to China and to long haul Skipper and it has its rewards both monetary and career progression. However you might not be comfortable signing for a B777 after just a few months line training. Be careful what you wish for！

Have you even passed the selection and CAAC check? First things first!

As for the rest of you CSA expats complaining or "stating facts" on here please remember we are guests in China so please thread carefully as we are already coming across as spoilt brats. It's not perfect but nowhere is. The terms could be better compared to other local airlines but hopefully they will continue to improve as they have done. Try and have some fun in CAN on your off days instead of wasting it on here in your hotel or bedsit apartment. It's got bars restaurants and millions of young ladies who actually might :mad: you which is something you probably haven't got much of over your life time.

The Euro base is a disaster but unfortunately we have one of our own to blame for selling the Euro base instead of the originally agreed AMS CDG FRA.

In summary let's do the job take the cash so we can all go home and do the wife or the girlfriend thing. Neggar!

[CaptainJim]

Wyoming! :D
If your A320/737 NB job is so great why are you on here knocking our job?Jealousy maybe? :=

We are PICs on domestic and SH sectors (just like you right? :ok:) and eventually "Leader PIC" on international 4 crew flights.

Oh and I never heard of a reputable agency :ugh:

China the final frontier where the aviation bell ends of the world unite.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

SIC Jim have fun begging for a landing, cowering in the corner as the PIC bellows smoke like a chimney in your face. Would the PIC have to leave the cockpit or be asked to leave the cockpit so the other pilots can smoke? Do you enjoy asking the PIC what fuel load he wants or which sleep time you are assigned? Yes I thoroughly enjoy my PIC narrowbody job as I tell the FO a big NO he cannot smoke on me and obviously I do whatever flying I choose not whatever flying I am delegated. The narrowbody pay is outstripping the widebody pay anyways. No I am not knocking on CS's door I am just painting a picture for potential newhires as was the title of this thread "CS Wannabes" so potential recruits can understand there flight time is nothing more than SIC time outside of China
. China changes slowly and perhaps someday they will have ExPat Captains flying regularly as PICs but that is NOT the current status. If you want a closer assessment of the culture read MR. GAMMON's posts.

[CaptainJim]

I could care less about who's in charge. :ugh: Why are you posting on here? I explained how the system works but you still won't concede that when we do SH flights we are the PIC as there is only one captain and that's us. We do progress to leader PIC on LH but do I care that much? Eh no! :=

Will Xiamen not let you fly the 787 after your 6 years of PIC on the 737?

At least "SIC Jim" no doubt has a much better quality of life in this job with way more time at home :)

I feel sorry for you!:sad:

BTW remember who your parent company is! Don't bite the hand that feeds you especially since you've practically given away your identity on here. No more SIC BS! :=

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Jim, thanks for feeling sorry for me, empathy is a very useful quality as a First Officer. I see you enjoy being home so maybe you should consider our narrowbody schedules of 30 days on and 30 days off or even 60 days on and 60 days off. Unfortunately, you will have to wait until next year when we will start hiring ExPat First Officers as you have no Current PIC. I will surely put in a good word for you and possibly if we fly together in the future I promise I won't smoke on you or make you beg for a landing.

[CaptainJim]

CSA is a job that pays good money and ultimately leads to a wide body PIC Leader command. Don't like it? Join Xiamen with this dude, you can call all the shots, no hassle. We get 19gs a month with awesome crew and great routes. Middle East available to all you global commander types. Enjoy.

Im not hiding my identity here as CaptainJim but you should have done. Be careful testing the waters my friend. Don't push me with this SIC BS. I'm no rat but I'm no cruise captain either.

China the final frontier lol

[CSAneggar]

I don't know where to begin?

[737WNB]

Ladies & Gents,

I am looking into joining CSA as a wannabe... Can anyone send me the ATPL package for the assessment.

One question regarding.. Will the ATPL exam suffice for the Chinese license or do we need to do a full course and exam after screening & during training?

Thank in advance !

[WJAPilot]

The ATPL exam covers the written portion towards licensing issuance.

After the medical and the initial Company Sim eval - you do another Sim eval with the CAAC - that constitutes the flight portion of the Licensing.

Unlike Japan there is no long drawn out 6 month ATPL course, just transition or company training on type depending if your TR or NTR which in itself is a long process.

Cheers

[737WNB]

The ATPL exam covers the written portion towards licensing issuance.

After the medical and the initial Company Sim eval - you do another Sim eval with the CAAC - that constitutes the flight portion of the Licensing.

Unlike Japan there is no long drawn out 6 month ATPL course, just transition or company training on type depending if your TR or NTR which in itself is a long process.

Cheers

Thanks for sharing! Any change some tips & trics for the assessment preparation please!? I know the agencies are providing prep stuff. But is there anything out on the internet for preparation..!?


Cheers

[evyjet]

Does anyone have sample questions for the performance graphs/charts?

I only seem to have Air Law, Met etc

Appreciate any links/downloads for the exam.

Evy

[Plastic fantastic]

It appears that Gammon Flaps has deleted all of his posts.
I wonder why?
Have the facts now changed?

[Maisk Rotum]

Feedback from a few former colleagues there now or recently:

One, a Boeing wide body commander on arrival, is still not checked out after six months. He went un-current coz no one gave him a landing on training, not knowing he had to beg for a landing, so they put him in the sim for recurrent and deducted the cost from his salary- and he speaks Chinese!!! He says very unkind things about the operation.

Second guy has since left after 21 months and says he was only on full salary for 5 months.

Third guy just arrived and already regretting his move.

Fourth guy had been there a while, ran out of time in the sim as they squeezed every possible failure onto him. He failed because of no time remaining. Remedial action? F/O for 300 hours.

Is there a pattern here?

Unbiased reporting- I have no interest or agenda.

[Count von Altibar]

Sounds like a right dogs dinner at CSA. I always wonder why the airlines go through such a lengthy selection process to then seemingly go all-out to fail people once they have them employed!? I guess it's a matter of archaic training systems and possibly a bad cultural approach to pilot training.

[Capt Tired]

Hi Guys and Gals.

Looking for some help in regard to agencies.

I am 777 rated and considering the CSA deal (forgive my madness). I have been told that choosing an agent is important from the get go as you will likely be stuck with them for your full term with CSA. Is this normal in the contract world? (I have not had to deal with agencies before)

I have two long time friends in the CSA system now. They are relatively content with their respective agencies. They have both told me to stay away from a mob called Tasman Aviation (supposedly run by a low-life who offers everything under the sun to get pilots to sign, only to take it all back at first chance). That is the only real feedback I have been given. The bigger agencies all seem quite similar at first glance.

If anyone can point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Global Nomad]

That's a fairly nasty accusation you've made in a public forum based on an opinion from two people without any substantive evidence.

I'm not sure I'd be that happy if any of my friends quoted me in the same manner. :=

There are benefits with Tasman, do I care to share them with you? Not particularly.

My sincerest advice is to stay where you are.

[Capt Tired]

Seems I hit a nerve. I apologise if submitting a rumour on a rumour network offended.

My intent was simply to seek advice whilst sharing the only recommendation I have (to stay away from a particular agency). Tasman certainly never made my short-list when I heard what was going on there.

If anyone has any positive feedback on other agencies, it would be great to hear about it.

[Global Nomad]

If you took my advice, you wouldn't need an agency.

No nerves offended as far as I'm concerned, but posting a nasty rumour, when it's just 'nasty' and achieves nothing really isn't on. I mean, what sort of low life would do that?

Pot - Kettle - Black

[Capt Tired]

In the past 24hrs I have heard from 2 more CSA guys. Both repeated the same issues with this particular agency. I will not go into the specifics as I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings anymore than I already have, but, that makes 4 pilots in what I believe is a fairly small expat community at CSA. As such I certainly stand by my initial comment.

Should I decide not to take your advice, I will happily buy you a drink when I get there (one with lots of fruit and a nice pink umbrella on top) as I am not really that "nasty".

Signing off.

[Global Nomad]

So, it appears your agency choice will be based on repetitive rumours (probably the same bar session) from people that I suspect you really don't know that well and from what you've heard on this network? Excellent decision making module.

Throw this in the pot then, I've heard that a similar number would like to change to said agent but most of us are actually ambivalent about any of the agencies.

It also appears you've been misled into thinking that your choice of agent will be contract defining. It's not, although I agree it is probably difficult to change once in. If there were to be an 'ace' of an agency, wouldn't we all be signing up but we're not so that's the best evidence you'll ever get.

Once you've selected your agency (sounds posh doesn't it) and if you absolutely insist on your new adventure, then good luck with your sim and medical.

It'll be about two years before you get on line so I doubt I'll be around to take up your drink offer.

[mach85]

Capt Tired,

There are SO MANY agents involved in this contract that its hard to know who the 'best' is.
Most guys speak pretty highly of Longreach China and GABS. They seem to be very proactive in tackling the issues. My peers at least seem pretty unimpressed by the services(or lack of) from PARC and Rishworth. Seems that they work on the 'once your in and we have our money then we dont care about you anymore' philosophy.......

The guy who runs Tasman is a CSA pilot as im sure you are aware. Met him a couple of times in the office or the bar and seems like a nice enough chap. How his agency is run i couldnt comment as i dont actually know anybody who is signed up with him.

Hope that helps a little,
Cheers

[Capt Tired]

Thanks Mach for taking the time.

Thanks also to the many guys who pm'd with similar sentiments.

Much appreciated.:ok:

[woodja51]

I would have to concur that the comments about Tasman are rather 'nasty'.

Frankly, if you are happy where you are then don't bother coming.

Why do I say that... because the harder it is to attract the necessary pilots to CSA ( or China generally) , the more they will increase the T's+C's for those of us here!

Yes, selfish - but the only difference between a pirate and a pilot is the eyepatch.

I am loving the job, easy work, generally lots of days off (for an RSO guy like me) Great coin.

Not without issues, but go visit the Middle East forum for the happy campers/habibis there....

Oops what am I doing... making it sound worth coming for a look! Egads!

Note to self... wind head in. (as I listen to 'March of the Volunteers' - google it for info)
wja

[mach85]

Woodja,

Seemingly the CAAC are taking care of that for us.
Lots of new questions in the ATPL exam apparently leading to a very low pass rate...........

[twentyyearstoolate]

The recent exam I did was very tricky. New questions I've never seen before, and others I just didn't understand even what the question was asking (Chinglish).

Not sure if its some seasonal change, if a new manager has changed lots of questions, or maybe someone up top wants to make it difficult to get foreign Captains to get hired. One thing is for sure, and that is it is a pain the the bum doing this exam.

I went in this exam with a fair degree of confidence after boning up on all the previous questions. I was shocked when I saw the exam, and so many questions that have no relevance to the job but obviously someones picked out many obscure details from manuals charts and aerodynamics. Unfortunately I came just short of a pass. I'll sit one more time after studying all the new info that's floating about.

Best of luck to any others going through the process!

[Karunch]

Those who read the China Daily may recall an article of some 3 years ago where the head of the CAAC (a former CA pilot himself) was commenting on the future of foreign pilots in China.

The thrust of his comments was that foreign pilots will have a role in the PRC airlines for the foreseeable future however they would only be the 'good pilots'. Aspertions had been made (by local pilots, and not totally unfounded) about the quality of some of the incoming foreigners. As the supply of rated pilots dried up, they got closer to the bottom of the barrel.

What you are seeing is one of their typically inappropriate responses to the perceived problem.

See: Skies too friendly for foreign pilots- China.org.cn (http://www.china.org.cn/china/2012-09/06/content_26445304.htm)

[The Dominican]

Brass tax gents....!

What's the pay like for DEC during that year you will be in training before you are actually released as a commander (P1) on trips?

If you don't want to publish it, please send a PM:ok:

Thank you

[doniedarko]

Training pay is limited by time :-
Type rated ....3 months
Non Type Rated .....6 months
Regardless of where you are in the training process after the above times you move to full salary.
According to my sources ....even the Aussies don't whinge :p

[The Dominican]

And training salary is???

According to my sources ....even the Aussies don't whinge

They have to be lying:}

[ricfly744]

Hello all,

I am presently B777 captain in the Gulf, have been B744 Capt in China before, only left because the company closed.

Not afraid of China, in fact, like it, but would be frustrated if not flying as PIC often enough and having to beg for a sector to keep current. Humiliating!
Never been in that situation. When in previous job in China, was PIC most of the time on both long haul and short.
I have flown in China with many expat ex PICs who could ONLY fly as PICCs, as they had been hired for that position, and would get full Command when the company expended, it never did, and I saw how all of them got immensely frustrated sooner than expected. Those who think they don't care about not flying as commanders may be soon realizing they do care.

Please tell us, if those who come with considerable PIC time on 777 will only fly as second captain (relief ) or this is only the case for those who join as NTR.

I just read that PARC has new terms and are inviting for a roadshow in AMS this week. I am temptated!

My wife (European) likes China and the Chinese people, she even learned Mandarin when we lived there. She cannot say same about the people from the hot sands.

Gulf contracts are excellent when children are still benefiting from school allowances, but as in my case they just lost it, by age, the package here looses value and China becomes more attractive.

[outside limits]

ricfly744
Please go back and read previous posts regarding PIC in CSA. Foreign Cpts in CSA are never PIC unless on a domestic flight. These guys have been in CSA for 3-4 years and do one trip per month PIC. No matter which way you look at it, on the mission sheet the PIC's name is written in Chinese. You are the SCAP. End of story. You need to ask for a sector which will involve either a take off or a landing only. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is fooling you and themselves. There are some guys in CSA from Air China and they were PIC there but not here.

[countdownconundrum]

Has anyone attended the roadshow in AMS today? Still undecided about going after reading all this ppprune waffle!

Some massively varied opinions, but thanks for all the honesty. I'm sure it's all meant well..

[777newbie]

As someone mentioned, if you do have a go, stick with GABS or LONGREACH or possibly BAA.

I've been here for 2 years now. Generally OK apart from some of the already mentioned issues. But where doesn't have issues?

Unfortunately I went with a smaller agency and am now stuck. I have heard all the Tasman stories and if true, maybe Capt Tired was spot on??

With the benefit of hindsight, I would certainly only recommend one of these 3 if coming to CSA.

Good luck.

[The Dominican]

Salary during training? Please PM me if you don't want to post on the open forum....!

Gracias :ok:

[The Dominican]

Thank you for the Information......!

Yes...., thanks to my kids I'm familiar with the whole google thing... But I'm also familiar with the amount of BS that results from a google search.

Since this is a site where professionals meet to discuss issues and the best place to find people who are actually working at CSA, It is best to ask the people who are experiencing it...., a google search will only give me the contract agencies propaganda. :rolleyes:

[CEA330Driver]

Capt Tired,

Please feel free to PM me. I have a number of years of experience working in China and am willing to offer you some insight on the brokers I've worked with.

Regards.

[Biggusdickuss]

There's a lot of bull in this thread.. I am currently doing this job and I can assure all of you it's by far the best I've had. The flying is very easygoing and the Chinese caac rules concerning rest and 4 pilots for all international flights is beautiful, just ask any ex sand pit driver. Typical flights involve doing only about 5 hours at the wheel and the rest in the bunk, also I do around 2 landings a month. Now for those of you who want to rest less, get paid less, land and take off more then I'm sure there's a job out there for you.

As regards the recurring question about who the captain is.. First off anyone who has never flown long haul will immediately not understand how long haul works. So I'm not even going to attempt to explain that. Secondly, in china the copilots do all paper work and they will be signing your name as PIC for exactly half of all time flown. When you are in the seat you take off and land but as part of a four pilot crew and being a junior employee you can expect it will be a while before you are the 'leader' PIC. As in the guy who decides who sleeps when, and that's the way it should be. Other airlines do away with seniority and respect and look where that's gotten them, again if that's what you want there's a job out there for you, here you have to build that respect over a number of years. But you are still a fully type rated and certified capt and easa will issue you with a easa license once you provide your sim check and caac license details.

As regards the basing, the euro crews asked for a euro base and they were given it. The Chinese have shown a willingness to negotiate everything, unlike some employers I can think of. That said Vancouver and Auckland fell through but there may yet be movement there. If you are Guangzhou based you can work 20-10 or 18-12 if you count leave.

Money is 200 dollars a day induction (first two weeks)
12k a month thereafter for 6 months (3 months if type rated)
After that 18k (rsp) 18830 (CAN base)
Year 2 19k/19830
Year 3 20k/20830
Year 4 21k/21830.
6k every January providing you have no screw ups...

Agents: firstly all agencies get the same amount of seats from Csa. What that means is that if there are 100 seats and 10 agencies all agencies get ten seats. So if one agency tells you there's a waiting list, try a different one, it may be that they simply have too many names, no one gets preferential treatment. Am quite happy with my agent as they have a tendency to show up every now and then in China rather than hide in an office but I won't do their advertising for them as that's not appropriate here. Do your homework.. Remember in China they don't care if an agency is big or small, it's all about relationship here. If you want clear terms and conditions then don't come here. China is not Europe. I'll give them one thing though, they don't mess about with money, they pay in full and on time every time.

Lastly guys is the main point I want to make. Don't come to China expecting all your problems to be solved. This job suits some and not others, and is definitely not for the faint hearted. The sims are very tough and so are the medicals. I read about guys in earlier threads failing because they ran out of time, yes you will fail for this because you're too slow, they don't want you flying in circles and talking sh@t for 45 mins with a failed engine. They want a downwind circuit and landing and all checklists read in that time hand flown mostly. And they're right. They want steep turns, stalls, crosswind circuits single engine at 40kt with map mode off. Also your time here is all about your relationship with the company, contracts mean little in China, so don't expect waving it about to work. Blend in, enjoy the cash, the nightlife (😀😀) the rest (😀😀) etc. Do your homework, get advice from friends, and welcome aboard if you decide to come over.

[fatbus]

great pot, thanks for the good info

[The Dominican]

Who knew....? Pragmatic, to the point and without smart arse remarks:ok:

Thank you!

[The Dominican]

And if you are so kind BD.....!

As I understand the salary will be net with taxes paid in China by the company..., will they provide paperwork of the taxes paid on your behalf?

Thank you for your time:ok:

[mach85]

Yes the salary is net of Chinese taxes and you will receive proof of taxes paid at the end of the year which you can show to your country of residence. What happens from there will depend on the DTA between your country of residence and China. For that i suggest talking directly to the Revenue in your country of residence. The advice is free and from the horses mouth so no bull........

One more point from the above post worth noting- if you want to be CAN based on the 20/10 and add leave days to make 18/12 this is no longer possible on 777 from next year. You are only allowed to use your leave days 5 times throughout the year so not able to 'add' 2 days a month to your 10 days off like many guys were doing this year. 330 and 787 dont have this restriction at least as far as i know.

Cheers,

[The Dominican]

Thank you against Mach & BD....., sounds like the T7 is short on crews?

Is it possible to do reverse roster from JFK for example? And what are the commute conditions?

Best regards..., will stop bothering you guys for now:ok:

[mach85]

Well there are actually some guys who would like an RSP in JFK so once they have the numbers i guess they would consider it especially given the fact that the locals hate flying there 😝😝

It could be a really great RSP if they went for it. 32 hours return and its a pax flight so no cargo delays. Contract is for 80 hours and a JFK return takes 4 days. You do the maths.... 👍😄

Regarding commuting- if JFK is what you are talking about then its doable as there are guys doing it now. Daily flight at the moment and 2 a day from next summer time. Commuting is space available upgrade but the JFK flights are pretty full and there have been some guys bumped into an economy seat more than once on that flight. 16 hours there is a LONG TIME. Food for thought.....

Cheers,

[Biggusdickuss]

First I've heard of that leave restriction but yes it may well be true, as regards that I'll probably try for 36-24 next year but so far my leave requests and indeed my days off requests have all been approved with change, and that's over a year now.

I second also what Mach said about taxation, don't mess about. Pilots are all tax experts except, they aren't. Don't listen to an accountant as I promise you they won't have a clue. Go straight to your tax office and lay the contract on the table, and yes they give you the tax return as above. One last thing, make sure you bring a healthy sense of humour guys, it'll pay dividends. Seriously. Pardon the pun. All the best to anyone on their way here, and also Mach is correct re basing. Once they have the numbers there's a good chance they'll open a new rsp. That said, anything can happen.

[mach85]

Hey biggus,

Not sure which fleet your on and as I mentioned before, haven't heard of this restriction also applying on the 787 or 330 so wouldn't like to comment there.
If your on the 777 though and the relevant email missed your inbox somehow then let me know and ill PM it to you 👍
Cheers,

[777newbie]

Very good post by Biggus

I can certainly confirm the accuracy of what was stated having been here for almost 3yrs.

A couple of points to add if I may.

In regard to PIC. Domestic PIC was introduced on the 330 when the foreign pilots asked for it. It is likely that International PIC was not given soon after as the pilots didnt ask for it due to the fact that domestic PIC turned out to be bloody awful. Huge delays and disruptions. So bad that such flights are now rarely scheduled due to the possibility of messing up the monthly RSP roster.

For those who have concerns regarding logging hours and what not at CSA. Some of the most senior 330 foreign pilots are now cleared for international PIC. In addition, some of those guys have also been sent for instructor training.

The 330 fleet still seems to be the best run. Here on the 777, things continue to improve slowly. I dont have enough info to confidently state how the 787 is going.

For those seriously considering giving it a try I would suggest caution regarding the suggestion of simply applying via another agent due to a full quota (BTW thats the first I have heard of quotas). Once an agent submits your paperwork you are stuck forever, so be careful.

The Tasman debacle was just that, a debacle. Whilst the person concerned is a quite a nice chap, as an agent he was wrong to screw a fellow pilot. It was a very sad state of affairs that will not be easily forgotten.

There are some good agents out there and they are not too hard to find.

Good luck to any who take the plunge.

[Biggusdickuss]

A few months ago a few colleagues and I were rostered for a meeting with the company lawyer, very pleasant and informative and quite a clever lady. It was her that told us about the agent quotas so I can confirm that's true. Agencies do not get more seats because they are a 'big' agency. Am saying this here as I've heard that some pilots are being put on waiting lists, it thats the case you have the option to change agent and speed things up. And again as previously stated, do your homework.

Many rants on pprune about agents, essentially your agent is there to sort out your paper work (no small task in China believe me) and bring you through the application process. After that of course they are technically there to sort out your contractual issues but be warned, and this was out of the mouth of the company lawyer, 'in China, relationship more important than contract'. So DO NOT come here unless you are comfortable with that. That's China guys. This place is wonderful and terrible, crazy as it is big and funny as it can be depressing. If you do come here you will earn huge money, make some great friends and experience a new culture. Things will go wrong sometimes sure but you can kiss fatigue goodbye and say hello to 20gs a month.

Some guys seem to fit in here and some don't, I do have my theories as to why but I don't want to stray into opinions and hearsay, I want to try and inform those interested so that those who do come out here do so with their eyes wide open and not hoping for something that doesn't exist. I left my last company because i wanted A: double the money B: a big new airplane type C: a new adventure D: I was going to throttle someone as I'd been there too long and their general antics were driving me crazy E: I was sick of getting up at 4am. China southern have fulfilled all of the above and even though there have been some major upsets and set backs such as the Vancouver and Auckland rsps, our bosses have shown a willingness to negotiate everything and have upped the pay by 70gs over the four year contract span since I joined. My previous European employer, (I'll give you one guess) whom I have no ill will toward, spent the years I was there reducing my pay, making me work harder, bullying my colleagues and I, negotiation on anything was just a charade. A manager asked me once why I don't go to the 'roadshows' that they occasionally organised to spread the good news. I said that there was no point showing up, anything that they wanted to change they would change anyway and put on our internet portal, whatever they decided to pay me I would get paid and as regards leave I used to email them and say November, January, February or March, surprise me. The manager in question laughed and agreed with me. Here in China, they will listen, they will try their best just don't expect it all to go your way.

Right I'm off for a few Christmas drinks with my fellow crazy foreign captains. I hope this post wasn't too wandery and you guys can get something from it.

[flyonthewall]

Go to work, brief, go to the jet. Discuss who will do the TO and LDG. Get airborne, snooze in the bunk, step out of cockpit if locals want to smoke. Have a 48 hour layover, eat, drink, fly back. Collect $20k, have 12 to 17 days off a month.

What's not to like?

If you feel you MUST be the one in control of the entire flight, probably not for you, but then how would you handle a flight as part of a heavy crew in any other operation if you were not the number one boss man?

If you are content with the numbers in your logbook, honest enough to admit that any lapse in standards is your own fault, and can get along with people, then it's a fine job. I guess that's why most of the successful candidates meet these criteria.

[The Dominican]

What's the typical timeframe from application to class date?

Thank you

[Mr_ATPL]

From application to screening. 40 to 90 days. Normally 60 days.

Screening to CAAC check 3-4 weeks.

Class date within 60 days of CAAC check pending on season.

All in all, around 5-6 months.

[CSAneggar]

If you feel you MUST be the one in control of the entire flight, probably not for you, but then how would you handle a flight as part of a heavy crew in any other operation if you were not the number one boss man?


Good post mate but I think I'll stay on my narrow body on a third of the pay, do 4 legs a day and call all the shots so I can go home and write PIC in my logbook. Unless I'm on straight onto the left seat telling the Chinese instructor how to do it im not interested.

Think I'll wait until they offer direct entry instructor positions. NASA are also on my shortlist.

[777newbie]

Another good, accurate post by Biggus.

Very interesting info regarding the agency quota. It seems it is time to get some form of protection for the pilots from dodgy agents. At the moment we are at their mercy with no avenue to escape. I will bring this up with the bosses at the next opportunity.

I could not agree more that some pilots are suitable for China and some are not. Basically if you want to bring along baggage and change the way it is done here, don't bother coming. If you are willing to be flexible, relax and fit in a bit, you could spend many years here earning good cash. There are higher paying jobs in China now but they don't have the foreign pilot numbers. Your call if it's worth the risk.

Just heard today that the 330 fleet is looking for takers for a 330 base in Europe (CDG, AMS or FRA). It seems they seriously want more crew and will do what they are able to get them. Remember this is a huge airline and change takes time.

CSA have listened and taken action relatively quickly to many of the foreign pilot requests. I would say a lot faster than my previous companies. We need to remember that there are many more departments in CSA that need to be consulted as opposed to Western Airlines. What I still can't get my head around is the fact that SOC has more power than FLT OPS. For the non-initiated, this means that the scheduling dept will always overrule FLT OPS. A very strange situation.

Once again, good luck to those that take a serious look at CSA. Just be very wary of the earlier posts regarding agent choice. Choose correctly and you could be set till retirement. Make the wrong choice and you will regret it for as long as you stay at CSA.

[The Dominican]

What I still can't get my head around is the fact that SOC has more power than FLT OPS. For the non-initiated, this means that the scheduling dept will always overrule FLT OPS. A very strange situation.

For us westerners it is a very strange situation indeed but it is not only CSA or China...., here in Japan they tend to run the operation outside of the company organigram, up to the point that the pilots don't have any interaction at all with whom are supposed to be our direct supervisors.

Recently I had to send a communication to the company and I wanted to include the CP and the DO..., since they change every couple of years I had to ask one of the girls in the office who was at those positions these days.....:rolleyes:

Flight ops seem happy to let the office minions run the show.

[The Dominican]

A very happy 2016 everyone.......!

What mix of flying (Cargo vs. Pax) are folks doing on the T7?

[USMCProbe]

CS went from almost zero foreign pilots to a huge group in 4 years. They just started recruiting in about 2011-ish. There are only a very few posters here that say it is bad. That means the vast majority are happy, and not getting on PPRUNE and complaining.

Sounds like a good gig to me.

I lived in CAN for my first year in China. It is one of only a couple of cities in China that wasn't completely "scraped" and built completely anew. It is an interesting place, and culturally easy to fit in as an expat. There are 10's of thousands of expats, or maybe even an order of magnitude more. From CAN and HKG, you can fly almost anywhere in the world, non-stop.

The narrow body jobs in China pay better, and as an American, you won't have tax issues like you will flying overwater. Depending on where you are based, the narrow body jobs can be a dream, or a disaster. Some cities sit under the air corridors of PVG and CAN/HKG, and every departure can be a 2 -3 hour delay.

I will be going back as soon as I can, hopefully shortly. Probably Sanya or Xiamen. I would love to go to Shenzhen or CAN, but reference the delays above.

[SpamSpamSpam]

Does any current 777 or 787 pilots have any feedback on the current rosters/lifestyle on the commuting contract?

[The Dominican]

I didn't get any answers on the thread about the average T7 cargo vs, pax flying but I did get some answers by PM's......., monstly cargo on the T7 is what I got, could it be confirmed that on the T7 there is mostly cargo with a lot of DH's to other bases to start trips?

[Mr_ATPL]

To add to Dominican's post.

Another question that is not clear:

What are the current (Summer 2016) RSP bases for the 777? 787?

B777: AMS (confirmed) - LAX ? - JFK ?
B787 : YVR (closing down) ? - AKL (closed) - LHR ?

[Biggusdickuss]

777 doing euro rsp is almost exclusively cargo. Working out well though most of the guys are getting decent time at home. 777 CAN base is working out at about 70/30 cargo pax but that'll change, three new 300-er on the way if not there already (flew a brand new sky team one last shift) so those numbers may not be accurate. As regards the positioning between Shanghai and Guangzhou to operate cargo, yes this is a pain and everyone has to do it but I believe change is afoot there also as in there may be a voluntary Shanghai base coming soon for those who want it.. As I've mentioned before the Chinese are willing to negotiate everything. For any new comers on Boeing you will have a choice of 787 or 777 also think carefully before you commit.

[enemymine]

Can anybody be so kind and confirm RSP for A330 as well? FRA and AMS are the ones I am looking at...




Best regards and safe flights

[mach85]

Hi Enemymine,

A330 flies daily to AMS/CDG and a few times a week to FRA via Changsha i think.
Currently no A330 RSP's anywhere other than Australia although from what i heard recently, the idea of a base somewhere in Europe has been touted so maybe something for the future. I think at the moment they are looking to try and open a stable 787 RSP as when Vancouver closes this year that will be 2 opened and 2 closed in a very short period of time. For this reason they seem to be looking into LHR for the 787. I guess they will focus their efforts there first and then on another A330 RSP after perhaps.

All the best,
85

[Snow Flurry]

Bonjour

For those that are thinking of making a life changing decision, here some facts you may wish to consider :

1. Paris base (A330) just opened this month. For the 2 pilots on the base, rosters look fantastic with continuous fixed lines (4 on, 6 off) operating only between CDG-CAN. This is only done to make the CSA brochure look very attractive and glossy. Once they have the pilot numbers for the base, rosters WILL be changed to reflect the current practice of most other pilots 'away-from-home' rosters. Beware Air France pilots !!!

2. Punitive monetary fines for any days absent outside of Leave. If you are unfortunate enough to fall ill, need any compassionate time off or require some LWOP you will be fined US$600 a day, everyday. Take a month off, not only would you not get paid US$19k (fair enough) you will then also be fined US$18k ($600 x 30 days). Expensive month away from work if you are out of Leave or simply have no choice !

This has already been tested and numerous pilots have incurred the fine.

The option of losing your medical to receive $100/day is worth considering but could prove more problematic when trying to get it back under the extreme medical standards.

Something is obviously on the nose at CSA given 50% of screening candidates did not show up at the last screening, and of those that did, it is understood none got through.

Hope this is of help to anyone considering so there is no shock value to you and your families if you make the move.

Au revoir :)

[stiffler78]

Does any one know if a Perth residence is entertained by the company and then fly to the east coast or China to start the roster ?

[Codpiece]

Your question is unclear. If you are CAN based they will arrange travel to and from Perth.

[fatbus]

20 on 10 off , is travel to/ from CAN in the 20 or in the 10

[doniedarko]

Perth is currently served by 787 and is not a RSP (Reverse scheduling point). You can base yourself anywhere in the world however CSA will only position you from a CSA destination. Travel between your home and the CSA destination /port will be at your own expense as there is no ID90 travel. If based in CAN on 20/10 all travel is during the 10 day off period. However with annual leave etc some guys seem to be doing 18/12 etc, others back to back 20/10/10/20. Crews in RSP seem quite happy with there roster /days off. CSA appear to be at least trying to make it work as best as possible. ...It's different and fun will suit some but not others !

[fatbus]

Good info , thanks.

[10L TCH]

"CSA appear to be at least trying to make it work as best as possible."

For anyone considering a life changing decision to leave their job and come to China Southern, an update to the observation above:

All Australian RSP's MEL/SYD/BNE have reverted from 'point-to-point' rostering offering maximum time at home back to multiple maximum time away 8-10 day patterns. Guys who were enjoying around 18 days at home are now back to 9 days. This is due in part to the locals complaining aided by one self-centred despised BNE individual.

Simply, the goal posts continually change regarding the rostering and nothing anyone is told can be trusted. Until any rostering practices are written in your contract, expect change to pacify the local pilot group and this despised individual who has convinced himself he represents the masses.

Any suggestions or 'petulant winging' as it is called by one, is simply responded with citing of the contract and their ability to do so. Gents on an RSP have been told as long as they get 8 non-consecutive days off at their RSP then the contract has been complied with. One could easy view that foreign pilots are just a necessary evil and not one whereby they are wanted unless of course you like the taste of management on the end of your tongue! :yuk:

Australia now seems to have quite sufficient numbers of foreign pilots to fill the bases including those currently under training and thereby no ongoing necessity to make the rosters look attractive. 3D rosters on their way - Dubai, Delhi, Domestics. The Paris base however with only 2 guys, is great with only point-to-point rostering 4-on, 6-off. As quoted by China Southern, Paris rosters are only like this to make it attractive until we have the numbers on that base, then we'll change them back to CAN style rosters. Absolutely disgusting, dishonourable behaviour!!!

Funny the halted programme of making foreign pilots PIC 1 has kick started again in the same week it has been revealed domestic flying is the aim for future rosters. Nothing like spending a whole day to accrue 4 hours flying to Shanghai and back but then again, it will make the locals happy and inflate the ego of one :D Looks like they just want to lure as many foreign pilots to join under the guise of a home base, only to then have them flying out of Guangzhou to all destinations the locals don't want. Seems to fall in line with the fact the locals love flying to Australia too and how they never want that to change.


Incoming ........... :uhoh:

[01 TCH]

100% agree. If you have a job stay there. If you have no job find a better one.

[The Dominican]

For those of you that are bipolar......, there is no need to get a username for each one of your personalities, specially whene the voices in your head are in agreement...., before any of the beings inhabiting the same body wants to post on PPrune..., just take your medication instead.

[Jack330]

Anybody with some info concerning the China Southern captain screening process please? I haven't check in the forum properly, I just wanted some info on SIM check, atpl questions and anything useful. Thanks a lot
cheers

[outside limits]

No ones hiding behind different personalities. The reason behind the new identities is to highlight the distain for TCH within CSA. What 10L TCH said is true. Who cares what identity you use. CSA has gone sour similar to CX & EK etc. No where to hide anymore. The latest roster changes & infighting has caused considerable displeasure. If you're considering a move to south China forget it. Stay put and make the best of your current situation. Working for noodle slurpers is not a long term option and it certainly is not enjoyable.

[The Dominican]

The only thing that someone that creates two screen names just to agree with one another has highlighted is the need to refill his medication.

[CEA330Driver]

Working in China is not everyone's cup of green tea, the difficult part is knowing if it is right for you. Everyone's circumstances are different. One thing I can tell you from experience; if you are on a reverse roster and have the carpet pulled from underneath you, end up flying domestic flights in China (with maybe a scattering of International flights thrown in), the job will feel untenable......... unless of course you like being away from you family 3 weeks at a time.

[Savage175]

I know this is a rumour forum, but the domestic rosters for the A330 RSP pilots haven't started - yet!! Maybe they will try it on and maybe they won't, but I would suggest that the ticking time bomb in the form of around 12 (A330) QF pilots on LWOP is a big risk to their operation. Especially as QF has virtually guaranteed that anyone wanting to return from LWOP can do so whenever they chose. The big two considerations are money & time at home, so if CSA makes a mess of this, they could well see their recruiting/retention targets in tatters, along with a fair bit of bloodshed in the CSA Ops management ranks. Interesting times ahead!!

[thatwasclose]

Hi All,
I have been emailed from a few agencies claiming that CSA is now offering a 1 month on 1 month off contract. I am always a little be wary of the claims they make. Have any of you there heard of this or are on it or have been offered it ?
Thanks

[dogsfatass]

It is being offered. Only just started so nobody rostered yet.

You fly 120 hours in your month on, which is fixed from the 15th of the month until the 14th of the following month. It is straddled over 2 calendar months to get around the 100 in 30 rule.

That means you work 720 hours for the year which is 75% of a full time (960) roster and you get paid accordingly ie 75% of the full contract.

[thatwasclose]

thanks fatass. { always wanted to say that }

[chinafly]

Caveat emptor with the month on month off option; it is very new and has not fully been implemented yet. I did hear talk that it may only be open to pilots after a minimum qualifying period, such as two years......which is what I heard they do in Hainan.

So, if you are joining on that basis, make sure you are super clear on when you will be on it. Just think if your family could handle you getting only 7-8 days at home on a commuting roster for 2 years......

Re the 330 fleet its amazing how they were the golden kids, with perfect rosters and a manager that "understood" the foreign pilots.

Now its potentially going to be a basket case. Thats China for you.

[Trash8mofo]

Just keep in mind that it is VERY normal for local pilots to leave their families and significant others at home and only see them only 2-3 times a year on a long stretch. Kids are being raised by grand parents etc. The whole system are based on the migrant workers lifestyle. Therefore, most Chinese airline managers see no problems with that kind of schedule. If they promise you month on month off, especially on a legacy airline whose managers came up under that kind of schedule, I would think twice.

[gulliBell]

@Trash8mofo is correct on that over-view of the China situation. They offered me 1 month on 1 month off, but the reality is, some operational flexibility on the rostering should be anticipated* (*read that as expected). At my first contract renewal, the 1 month on 1 month off was so far removed from reality I suggested they just pay me at a daily rate for every day I'm in China, whether I go to work or not.

[Oscar84]

And they agree to pay you like your offered them?

[gulliBell]

@Oscar84 they agreed to everything I asked for, plus more. I think it's a pretty good gig...

[mach85]

There is alot of truth in many of the posts above and some good info for anyone considering taking the plunge.......

Think long and hard why you are actually coming here and what you want to take from the job.......

For the RSP?- Yes many of us understandably do and its a BIG pull for this job. Be warned though that bases seem to open and close willy nilly as the aircraft to that destination changes. As has been mentioned above, from a couple of months of 'good rosters', we are again seeing much longer trips appearing from the RSP's so who knows where we will be with that next month.....
Now some guys like the longer trips away from their home/family so as I mentioned above......think hard what it is you want from the job.

Money?- Yes of course there is no arguing that the money is good compared to the west BUT if that is your sole reason for coming to CSA then you would be better looking at other options in China as funnily enough CSA is one of the 'lower payers' now......

Commuting roster?- This was also a major pull for many people to the job. Choosing your 10 consecutive days off every month. Nice if you dont live commutable to an RSP. This has now changed on some fleets wef next month and guys will be able to choose days off 1-10, 11-20 or 21-30 each month depending on their assigned 'group'. Seemingly you can move your assigned days off by 3 days or so but as you can see this is a major blow for commuters used to choosing their days off each month.

Job stability/security ?- The medical is such a roulette with guys constantly being knocked down, taken off the line and paid 100$ per day that if job stability/security is what you're looking for then look elsewhere.

Anyway just a few points to consider before taking the plunge down here.

Its not meant to be a whinge at all as there are many of us here that the job actually works for. Just trying to help some guys out before making the big decision to put your family through the CSA roller coaster 😝😝

As you can see from posts above, things change here at the drop of a hat so when you thino things are improving for the better, boom some local jealousy issues come up and suddenly you are back to square one again.

For those considering, do your research first and be very careful only listening to the agents as they will do anything to sucker you in here so they get their money. Most of them havent got a clue what it's really like working here so PM guys to get accurate info before giving up a stable job back in your homeland.

As one poster mentioned above, some guys really fit in here and others struggle. The constant changing of the goal posts doesn't help in keeping morale up though thats for sure but..........TIC 😩😫😄😝

All the best to all with whatever you choose,
Cheers,
85

[Winston]

Hi, quick question. The MOMO (if offered) doesn't include accommodation after the first 6 weeks. What is the price of accommodation in CAN like (I see that a housing allowance is paid for those on a mode CAN, do this cover somewhere half descent to live?).

Someone higher up this thread said that pilots had to pay to commute but I note the following in the info pack: 'Return commuting flights once a month on airline network'. Is this always supplied and is it to your home airport (mine would be LHR).

I am technically eligible to apply for any of the fleets (not saying I would get them) so is it fair to say the A330 is the better of the fleets judging by previous comments?

The info pack does offer MOMO as an option, do you think it may be likely that this could be postponed on joining as someone previously said or are they likely to honour what people have signed up for?

Thanks

[120feet]

Looking at HNA. Can anyone speak on 330 rosters. Any Americans willing to share how the tax liability works out. Just looking for a close % does not need to be exact. Would be commuting to the states.. Thanks all.

[Bowman2]

@Winston accommodation can be had in CAN reasonably inexpensively. Either per night at 4-5 star for 400rmb/night with breakfast, or rent a flat for 3500-4000rmb in Huadu or 8000rmb in CAN proper. Most guys go for hotel for flexibility and if CAN based you will be away from base heaps 120hrs is a lot to cram into 30days. Buyer beware, SIMS are not included in 'work' month, thats another 2 weeks min, of time in China. ALSO, Commuting flights are confusing. 2 types, 1 they PAX you to operate a service e.g. PAX CAN-PEK to operate PEK-AMS, no sweat, company flight, company hotel. 2 type you are 'AMS based' and you live in Malaga - you are on you own, except they'll pay the hotel the night before if early start. Might even require you to crew a FRA departure...guys are generally happy, but sometimes a bit messy and spend time being a travel agent. Live near your RSP and life is pretty easy.

[Winston]

Thanks Bowman2. I live 10mins from LHR so may be useful. I am waiting to speak to the agent but as they are 12 hours time difference, it is proving challenging.

Having looked at various options including NAI, EK, EZY, Hanain, Korean, it appears that CSA suits me better on paper. Just need to work out between CAN, MOMO or RSP and then I may apply and then take on the selection challenge!

[Winston]

Hi all. Quick question. Out of the A330, B777 and B787 which would you say is the best fleet to be on? Looking at the routes, I guess I would hit my 80 hours / 120 hours quicker on the 777? Any ideas which fleets have RSP ex LHR?

Just weighing up the pros and cons of applying for TR or NTR

Thanks

[737lpa]

Best fleet in terms of job satisfaction seems to be the 330 as they normally take turns flying and foreign crews seem to be accepted more as part of the team.

777 expect to basically become a CRZ CPT and only land to maintain currency, except for domestic sectors where you'll be a normal PIC when the time comes.

787 seems to be the worst in that regard as most of them have to keep operating with an LTC on the right hand sest almost indefinitely.

Right now LHR is on 787 but that could change anytime if they decide to swap acft type for that route.

Lastly, weather you reach the 80 hours sooner or later is irrelevant as what really matters are the days that you're gone from home. So pick your type in regards to geography and not flight time.

[Winston]

Great, thanks for the info

[777Goose]

MOMO is still under construction and final version will come out with the update to the Master Contract in August. It's shaping up as follows:

CAN based only, not available from RSP
Current CSN pilots 3 year wait. No idea about newbies
Hotel allowance pro rated
Full Safety Bonus, maybe
Sim month 35 days with additional pay for the 5 extra days.
30 day period rotates every June.
110 hours a month cycle

All subject to change

[mmorel]

can someone tell me what these abbreviation means:

CAN ?
RSP?
CSN pilots?

Thanks,

[Wizofoz]

CAN= Guangzhou (formerly Canton)

RSR= Reverse Scheduling Port- basically a base in all but name. An airport from which they agree you can begin and end your tour.

CSN= China Southern (though I think CSA is actually the IATA code)

[Oscar84]

And the other one, MOMO?

[dogsfatass]

Month On / Month Off Roster.

Still being finalised.

[CEA330Driver]

One thing to bear in mind vis-a-vis the MOMO roster. It sounds like CSN will probably do it right, but make sure the language reflects that you will have a MINIMUM of 30 days OFF (or whatever the number is) at home. Hainan put in a MAX of 28 days OFF and not surprisingly guys discovered that Hainan, true to form, began eroding their time at home because the contract language allowed for it.

[repulo]

Does anyone know if the MOMO roster can be operated out of the RSP base? Does the company provide a hotel during the month on?

Thanks guys.

[Iamneon]

Hi All

Can anybody tell me how long the training (320 to 330)will be and is there a possibility to commute home during that training?

thanks

[Oscar84]

Ccq is around 8//10 days...

[Iamneon]

Thanks, but i did hear that till your released can take up to a year, is that correct?

[737lpa]

Repulo,

MOMO's actual conditions are yet to be announced but it has been said that it will only be available at CAN, not the RSP's. Also is yet to be announced how much money the company will provide to cover your accommodation during the month on. At present we get $830 a month on a full time contract.


Iamneon,

The actual length of the training varies greatly from fleet to fleet and it's also subject to availability of LTC's, SIM slots, how long the CAAC takes to issue your license, etc... Having said that, the guys who have made the transition from the A320 to the A330 are among the fastest in the system and average about 4-6 months from induction to fully released.

You do have opportunities to go home during your training such as the breaks you get between induction and SIM, or during the time the CAAC takes to issue your license. Then, once the line training starts you get 8 days OFF per month until released to the line.

[Iamneon]

hi 737ipa Thanks a lot for all the information, it's very helpful!

[simlbek]

ALOHA ALL,

ANYONE ON B777?

[repulo]

Thank you 737lpa

Repulo

[mach85]

Hi guys.
Just an update for all potential joiners.

We, like all Chinese airlines are constantly having issues with the medical renewal here. Every month if not week, we have guys failing renewal and most of the time for something petty.
Recently we have 2 guys off for 'high' blood pressure. Their limit seems to be 140/90 despite official CAAC paperwork saying 155/95 is the limit.
140/90 sounds ok you probably think.....
When you factor in that most guys going for medical here have 'white coat syndrome' due to the high pressure and stress they put you under here then 140/90 can be quite hard to meet.
'White coat' can put your systolic up immediately by about 15 mm HG so that means that your 'normal' reading needs to be in the region of 125 to get through.
That and imaginary kidney stones also catch alot of guys out. That can take 3 months to 'fix' or to get the correct person to review your file.....

Anyway during all this time you drop to 100USD per day even if the 'failure' turns out to be incorrect!! No reimbursement of lost pay. Imaginary kidney stones prime example.........

Just wanted to make you guys aware of this as LOL specific to CAAC medical is very hard to find.

Many many Chinese Airlines still pay you full or slightly reduced pay after a medical failure and not 15% salary like here.

Cheers all,

[ELAC]

Hi guys.
Just an update for all potential joiners.

We, like all Chinese airlines are constantly having issues with the medical renewal here. Every month if not week, we have guys failing renewal and most of the time for something petty.
Recently we have 2 guys off for 'high' blood pressure. Their limit seems to be 140/90 despite official CAAC paperwork saying 155/95 is the limit.
140/90 sounds ok you probably think.....
When you factor in that most guys going for medical here have 'white coat syndrome' due to the high pressure and stress they put you under here then 140/90 can be quite hard to meet.
'White coat' can put your systolic up immediately by about 15 mm HG so that means that your 'normal' reading needs to be in the region of 125 to get through.
That and imaginary kidney stones also catch alot of guys out. That can take 3 months to 'fix' or to get the correct person to review your file.....

Anyway during all this time you drop to 100USD per day even if the 'failure' turns out to be incorrect!! No reimbursement of lost pay. Imaginary kidney stones prime example.........

Just wanted to make you guys aware of this as LOL specific to CAAC medical is very hard to find.

Many many Chinese Airlines still pay you full or slightly reduced pay after a medical failure and not 15% salary like here.

Cheers all,

FWIW, it sounds like the CAAC Southern region standards and CSA policy are indeed more stringent than elsewhere.

When I was at CA we went through a period of medical terrorization by the CA doctors (CA has its own hospital) similar to the above, but after a re-organization they've toned it down a bit and there are fewer failures. CA was not as draconian as CSA, but they would stop pay once your medical had expired and you'd burned off your days off and vacation owing.

Fo those with BP problems the worst part was that the option of using a BP medication to manage the situation was pretty much off the table as it would require a min of 2 weeks off duty for twice daily observation in hospital followed by tests and etc before a medication could be approved and a medical certificate could be issued. Unpaid, natch. We were strongly advised not to go this route. 7 years of that sort of treatment left a mark and I now do have a high BP and a healthy dose of white coat syndrome to boot, which only makes matters worse.

Imagine my surprise then when I did my first medical at the CAAC Eastern region hospital for CES (China Eastern) and was told "We think you've been suffering from long term elevated BP. Please start taking medication for it. Here's your medical certificate and see you in 6 months." At the next medical nothing more was said other than "Are you taking medication? Which one? Your BP is normal, see you in 6 months."

They do look you over pretty carefully at the CAAC Eastern region hospital, but they appear to be a lot more sensible in how they deal with things. Stress wise it's quite a difference from CA and northern region.

Same goes for CES the company. They've been helpful and supportive when guys have run into problems. Cutting off pay has not been their first course of action at all.

Cheers,

ELAC

[mach85]

Just an update for any curious applicants out there.

Rumour has it that B777 EU RSP slots are now all full wef course starting in November.

Obviously everyone is joining for different reasons but if your idea is to join on the Boeing fleet for an eventual EU RSP then you're probably best to explore the 787 avenue.

Be very careful what the agents tell you as a lot of them will tell you whatever you want to hear in order to sucker you in.

That info is as of today directly from B777 office.

Cheers all,

[lightchopp]

Hello everybody..thanks for sharing!!

As I might be invited for the CSA NTR 777 Captain position (currently FO 777-200 ER) ,I’am looking for all that I can recollect on the screening, SiM ,MEDICAL, PHYCOLOGICAL .
Any coments??
Thanks again!!

[AACE]

Would a job at CSA work if living in Hong Kong and travelling up to CAN for duties ?
I'm A330 and B777 rated.
Don't care if I'm PIC, Cruise Capt, FO, SO, FA as long as I get paid as Capt.

[Savage175]

Would a job at CSA work if living in Hong Kong and travelling up to CAN for duties ?
I'm A330 and B777 rated.
Don't care if I'm PIC, Cruise Capt, FO, SO, FA as long as I get paid as Capt.
Cant see any reason why not. You will have a residence/work permit, so travelling wont be a problem.

[Viking101]

So it seems all the Australian bases are full now, so if you join it will be out of CAN. Potentially a few places left in CDG (if you are interested living in France...)

Medicals are for 2 full days (brace brace). Sim is a lottery. ATPL questions not the easiest. So if you make the hurdles then you only have the line training left... which take min 6 months.

Dont get me started on the issue of PIC or not PIC next to a chinese... But the pay is awesome.

Good luck!

[CEA330Driver]

You can only be valid on one type at any given time with the Chinese. If you are currently flying the Airbus, then in all likelihood that is the fleet you will be hired on regardless of your past 777 experience or vice versa. You will be hired as the second Captain which means that you will operate whatever sector the PIC dictates - but then the sector is, for all intents and purposes, yours. They rarely (if ever) intervene as it's a matter of face and they would not want it reciprocated. The only carrier I know that hires 330 Captains as PIC is Air China - there may be others but not China Eastern (I should know).

[safelife]

...on widebody aircraft. On narrowbodies you would always be PIC, with any carrier, as far as I know. After you're thru line training, that is :O
Hainan designates foreign captains as PIC on A330 as far as I can see.

[Count von Altibar]

Did anybody spot that Parc have quoted 1,000 USD less per month for their upcoming Brazilian screening roadshow for both rated and non-rated? Details all on their website says 17k instead of 18k for non-rated. Looks like the money has gone down or is it Parc trying to get a bit more $$..? Hopefully it's a typo but I doubt it.

[doniedarko]

Latest info is there are still places available in Frankfurt. Everywhere else is full regardless of what the agents tell you. FYI many nontype rated guys now on the 777 based in Europe now operate as PIC...with other Europeans in the crew. Those with patience seem to be rewarded ...

[JDavola]

CSA soon to commence A330 services to Adelaide, potential reverse roster port?

[mach85]

Latest info is there are still places available in Frankfurt. Everywhere else is full regardless of what the agents tell you. FYI many nontype rated guys now on the 777 based in Europe now operate as PIC...with other Europeans in the crew. Those with patience seem to be rewarded ...

That's interesting bearing in mind 2 weeks ago there were no spaces at all 😩
Still guess it gives everyone an idea of just how well organised things are here......

Indeed PIC is happening on 777 EU RSP 👍...........
.......2 absolutely horrific cases of Shigella in the space of 2 weeks is also happening due to the sub standard dirty accommodation that CSA provide to its foreign pilots......

Its not all rewarding.
Cheers all,

[Viking101]

Would not think so...

But who knows?

[Savage175]

Not sure exactly what you are asking, but if you are CAN Based, you are entitled to free duty travel too and from your nominated home region (if CSA goes there). Paris, Frankfurt, London and Rome at the moment, for your contract days off. No interline travel benefits though.

[Whiskey Sierra]

Question for current CSA Pilot/s:

Is CSA still accepting applicants with appropriate B737 Command time for the B787 DEC?

[v1rotate]

Question for current CSA Pilot/s:

Is CSA still accepting applicants with appropriate B737 Command time for the B787 DEC?

Apparently yes, I have a screening early next year and I have 737 Command time. DEC for the 777 or 787 so they say. Not looking forward to the screening process though.

[sumkin]

What is the latest info coming from? and is it only about 777 or 330 as well?

[hubcaps]

Hi everybody,

Here is some info for those of us even considering China Southern (CSA). Have recently heard of the following instances. Think I will be staying put. What a joke

Instance 1:
787 - Foreign captain doing his check, chinese (CAAC/CSA) Senior Check Captain continually screaming at him in the flight deck during pre-flight setup. This continues, Chief Purser has to inform the flight deck the business class passengers are concerned about the ranting they can hear ! Foreign captain repeatedly asks the Check Captain to stop screaming as it was severely compromising the safety to continue the flight. Checkie had some issue regarding SOP’s, apparently unfounded too

Screaming continues to the point the foreign captain is left with no option but to remove himself from the flight. Foreign captain terminated ! Check Captain keeps face, no criticism whatsoever, WTF ?

Instance 2:
777 - Foreign captain has personal issue that unfortunately left no option but to resign. Gives required contractual notice and CSA accept his resignation. Issue arises whereby CSA inform his broker (sounds like ‘park’) there is US$7,500 bond owing under the master contract between CSA and broker. Broker realizes they themselves were legally obligated to pay the bond as the contract they had with the foreign captain was not in accordance with the master contract. Something to do with bond period commencing at a different date to the master contract. Apparently some brokers tweek their contracts to make it look more attractive than their competition, until they get caught out like this :)

The broker with cooperation of CSA 'alledgedly' conspired together and then decided to terminate the foreign pilot to bring forward his finish date by around 10 days and therefore have him pay the bond, even though they previously accepted his resignation. Disgusting !


Instance 3:
330 - Foreign captain gets seriously ill for a few weeks, hospitalized. Leave is apparently minimal in CSA, and unable to be carried forward. Foreign pilot has used up all of his leave as the calendar year is almost over. CSA stop paying salary, and because he has no leave left, is then fined / penalized US$600 a day. Yes, that’s right, no pay and on top of that, he has to pay his employer US$600 a day because he is seriously ill.

Apparently the contract provides for CSA to reduce pay to US$100 a day if your medical is disqualified, but seems CSA decided not to cancel his medical as the contract provides for them to charge the pilot US$600 a day if he hold his medical, has no leave and is not at work. Can you believe this ?

The foreign captain had paid for extensive income protection insurance with a ‘no waiting period’ but he was prevented from being able to claim it as it is dependent upon losing your medical certificate.

Please, if anyone who is actually in CSA wish to correct the above, by all means do so.

It is only fair that EVERYONE should be very aware of this broker’s immoral and deceitful behavior (sounds like ‘park’) along with the way China Southern treat some of their foreign pilots across all fleets. It seems like a massive step to give up a known and trusted employer to go to China, only to be treated like that.

No thanks

[Turkpilot]

I haven't heard anything like that. I need to choose between this job and an Airbus 320 job now as I've been hired by both.

Having spent 7 years flying in china I know personally the bs you have to go through but when some instructor wouldn't stop yelling at us in the sim i walked out and the manager had a talk with him. Next day he was beyond quiet!

I've just head CSA is extremely disorganized and if you get the B777 it sucks cause most trips start and finish out of PVG which means join crew to there from GZ and that will be miserable. Plus 777 is mostly cargo.

[mach85]

I've just head CSA is extremely disorganized and if you get the B777 it sucks cause most trips start and finish out of PVG which means join crew to there from GZ and that will be miserable. Plus 777 is mostly cargo.


This thread is great for potential joiners but lets at least keep to the facts.
CSA have 12 77F's and 10 77W's. 7 77F's fly from PVG and the rest out of CAN so 10 77W's and 5 77F's. So to say most trips start and finish out of PVG is clearly incorrect as you can see. Actually MOST 777 flying is out of CAN and not PVG. Sometimes yes you will have to DH with the crew to PVG but definitely not 'most trips'.

Also as you can see the split of cargo/pax aircraft is almost 50/50 so again saying '777 is mostly cargo' is also drivel.

777 EU RSP guys do mainly cargo as the only flights on 777 to EU are cargo. However those based in CAN on 20/10 do mainly pax flying.

There is a lot of truth on this thread so lets try and keep it that way for potential joiners.

[Turkpilot]

There are 5 guys from my old airline in china that currently work there. They are not just doing 2 or 3 long haul a month but domestic sometimes as well. The 777 cargo does suck and you can get it more often then not with lovely pvg included.

Schedule changes constantly. And as they have shown in the past they will open RSP base just to close it down a few months later.

[The Dominican]

Are they looking for other jobs? There are horror stories at every gig.....!

[mach85]

There are 5 guys from my old airline in china that currently work there. They are not just doing 2 or 3 long haul a month but domestic sometimes as well. The 777 cargo does suck and you can get it more often then not with lovely pvg included.

Schedule changes constantly. And as they have shown in the past they will open RSP base just to close it down a few months later.

I don't remember ever saying that you only do 2-3 long haul flights per month. All the fleets in CSA do domestic flights as do most Chinese carriers you will find.

777 cargo actually doesn't suck for everyone as you say. Some like it. Its horses for courses. If you are the kind of guy who needs to stand in the galley after landing to meet the passengers and feel important then probably it isnt for you. If you dont 'need' that ego massage then actually it is quite nice and laid back flying.

Anyway you make it sound so awful here that there isn't much point to come for you i guess. Weren't you deciding between 2 jobs. Sounds like you made your own mind up.......

Good luck. All the best,

[Turkpilot]

I never said that you said this. I'm telling you what I know from the guys working there. If your in love with CSA that's good for you.

Yes, cargo does suck. Frequent delays, backside of the clock, boring crews. As your well aware also that the hotels suck. They put you in one of the worst places in JFK, Flushing area of Queens. And normally it's a hotel that's connected with some Chinese restaurant.

The foreigners (laowai) get all the trips the Chinese don't want. And the company is VERY inflexible.

Your required to have 48 hours no duty after coming back to china from a USA trip. So if your 10 days off begins after the 48 hours, which would give you 12 days right? Well the company won't let you go until your 48 hours is up. Wanna fly CSA home while your on those 48 hours rest? Forget it.

That guy that got screamed at by the instructor on 787, they offered him the 777 then when the checker complained they terminated him.

Lax base not gonna happen anytime soon and forget Vancouver or JFK

The only thing stopping me is if I goto HK for this job I won't get home much.

[Savage175]

Hi Turkpilot

As you say you are not at CSA, and presumably not interested in joining after reading this forum. So I don't really understand your need to pass on information that you have simply heard on the rumour mill. Yep, there is truth in what you say, but this thread is for guys who are interested in joining and want to get the whole picture.

If you read through, it is easy enough to pick the guys who are actually here, and most of us are quite happy to answer PMs and give first hand answers about the good and bad aspects of CSA.

I don't know of any perfect airline jobs, but if you do then I am sure everyone would love to hear about them.

In the meantime, may I suggest that you refrain from posting your version of second hand rumours. Without context they are not of much help to those after first hand information

[mach85]

If you dont mean to comment on someone's particular post but just the thread in general then maybe it would make more sense just to click general reply rather than reply to post. This way the person(I in this instance) wouldn't think you were commenting on my particular post and instead just giving info in general.

Anyway i dont want to have a disagreement, that's not the aim here. The aim as Savage said is for accurate reliable info for potential joiners. Your initial post wasn't accurate hence why I commented thats all.

If you think im 'in love with' CSA then perhaps you should look back at my previous posts. You will see me regularly giving my opinion on the less 'enjoyable' parts of this job....and there are many but always fact!! I guess i am just more of a realist and like Savage said understand that the perfect job doesn't exist so what works for 1 wont work for another.....

By the way you are correct about the hotel standard. In general it is really dreadful. There are some 'ok' hotels but in general you wouldn't let your wife even put one foot into the reception of most places. From what I understand though i think that is very common in Chinese airlines.

The 48 hour required rest at base is if you fly through more than 6 time zones so not only US. Plenty of people do actually go home during this period but you will have to buy yourself a staff ticket in order to do so as the company(in general) wont let you travel as crew(so for free) until your 10 days off start. It has been managed by some guys in the past so like everything in China it all depends on the day and who you talk to

Anyway all the best with whatever you choose. Doesn't sound like we'll see you at CSA as it's so 'bad' so i hope your other option gives you what you are looking for.

Cheers,

[hubcaps]

thanks cedrus

So I am still trying to get my head around this. I understand that if you get sick with no leave you do not get paid salary, no work - no pay right, ok

But then if u r sick and even in hospital, China Southern will demand YOU to pay THEM us$600 a day, on top of no salary as well ? Are you :mad: serious ?? It can’t be so can it ??? unbelievable. I have never heard of this before from any airline in the world and understand not even the other big 3 chinese airlines do this. :{ Not a good look for China Southern !

As for the broker (sounds like bark) how despicable. How could anyone choose them as a broker after what they are said to have done to that poor fellow. shame on them :=


Was hoping someone could tell me these occurrences weren’t so, but sadly it appears they are.

[The Dominican]

Your are starting to sound like you're holding a grudge......! Only two posts and both are about the same thing....! Dude in this business you have to learn to take rejection.

[SkullFlyer]

Hello,
Can anyone say something about the CAAC check ?
Is it done with a CSA copilot as a partner or with another candidate ?
The manuvers are the same from the initial sim check ?
Any tips ?

Thank you !

[mach85]

Update:

The 'RSP closing' curse strikes again 😩😩
Apparently STN RSP has now been closed on the 777. Some issue with the Chinese pilots visas flying to the UK so they have decided to only change cargo in STN but night stop the crew in FRA instead.

So boom just like that the 4 guys who were flying out of STN are now moved to AMS RSP. Very frustrating for them to say the least.

As has been mentioned before, be very careful to take this job solely for a particular RSP. That is the 3rd(or maybe 4th actually) RSP that has been closed in the last year. CSA's reputation of keeping RSP's open is falling by the wayside.

Cheers all,
85

[broompusher]

Just out of sheer curiosity, why isn't the YVR 787 RSP working out/happening? I would assume (just based on observations from the forum) that there are enough guys to make it work?

[CharlyMike64]

Hello aviators i am new here


I am interested in news from CSA specially for CAPT A330. I see those are some "old" informations...Any one in company could make an update about how things are going for a Expat ? All you think it will be important good and less good info but real one. Like relations with company, rosters CMT, RSP...
Cruise CAPT, salary, CMT in Europe, assurances, etc


Thks will be vey helpfull

[Xtof71]

Hi CharlyMike,


I received news the RSP bases AMS and CDG are already full at this moment. I hope the CMT option is still valid and I would also like to know the details about this type of rostering. If will have some more news about it during February, but if anyone can inform me about it I would be thankful.

[Moving]

Hi there,
Anyone who knows if AKL 787 RPS still open?

[Manuel Reversion]

All full up at the moment. Mode Can at the moment as far as Auckland.

[dogsfatass]

For those guys looking at this contract with RSP in mind please disregard the absolute rubbish that the contract agencies continue to advertise.

As far as the current situation goes, even if you started the application process today, by the time you actually joined the company you will be a long way off. All Australian bases are full and oversubscribed, I doubt you would even get an Australian base in your first contract, maybe not even second. There is a 10 deep queue for each base with not a lot of movement, and no real look at base expansion at present.

LHR is full with a waiting list, as is AKL. The European 777 bases chop and change a fair bit, I'd be wary of expecting any sort of settled position there.

Currently 50-60 guys coming through the training system and taking another 7 guys each month, a lot of which taking any leftover RSP's and a lot going onto the aforementioned queues.

Just a heads up, as some of the agencies agencies continue to spread rubbish. Commuting contract is the only thing you can be assured of at present, and if you're commuting then HNA's contract is a a good 20% up on CSN.

[Moving]

Thanks a lot for the info. Appreciated

[The Dominican]

How are things at the 78 fleet these days? It was posted a while back that the best qol fleetwise was in the order of 330, 777, 787......., is it still the case? Is the trend improving or not?

[CharlyMike64]

Thks for info

[CatPilot]

anyone opted for the residental scheme at CSA? How's the life there? Intl schools for kids, etc... Do you think it's a good option?

[mach85]

Was in Zhuhai recently and met a big group of candidates there for screening.
Had a chat with a lot of them and was amazed how many said 'I am here for x RSP'.

As has been mentioned before on this thread, there are no spaces in any RSP's and most of them already have a waiting list.

Be very careful what some of the agents tell you. Quite frankly many of them are crooks and will tell you whatever you want to hear in order to get you to sign the contract. Then they get their money.....

Just a word of warning.

Cheers,
85

[Xtof71]

At least we had a lot of fun in Zhuhai :)

[Viking101]

Any updates regarding the Z visa?

Apparently you will need a bachelor degree to be able to work there!

Can you buy any of these degrees online? :E

[eddie shoestring]

Totally agree with mach85, the RSP's are a pulling card only. In fact, the AKL RSP is closing again (for the third time now) in June. perhaps permanently this time...

[Ugandan]

Guys and girls. Be aware. There is no base here other than 20-10 Guangzhou for new joiners. End of story. Anything else your agent has said is either plainly false or loose speculation.

It's a great job, good people to work for and fun. But you are 20-10 gz based and if you are living in Europe after travelling that's 23-7 in reality. Don't come here expecting anything else as you will be miserable. I wish the agents would stop misinforning all of you.

[outside limits]

"It's a great job, good people to work for and fun."
Haha. Ugandan definitely doesn't work at CSA.
Other than that he appears to be correct.

[mach85]

"It's a great job, good people to work for and fun."
Haha. Ugandan definitely doesn't work at CSA.
Other than that he appears to be correct.

HA HA HA brilliant OL.
I just spat my coffee out laughing. Thanks for that 👍😄 So so true.
This job is certainly not 'fun'. Everything but actually........

You certainly dont take this job for the 'fun' thats for sure.

Think long and hard why exactly you are coming before making the move.
If you have certain things in mind then it can work well for you but dont come here for the love of fun flying coz then you will be bitterly disappointed.

Cheers,

[chinafly]

Guys and girls. Be aware. There is no base here other than 20-10 Guangzhou for new joiners. End of story. Anything else your agent has said is either plainly false or loose speculation.

It's a great job, good people to work for and fun. But you are 20-10 gz based and if you are living in Europe after travelling that's 23-7 in reality. Don't come here expecting anything else as you will be miserable. I wish the agents would stop misinforning all of you.

Ha ha ha.........

What an absolute crock of ****.

I wonder which agency posted that.....

Its grindingly depressing. Brutal medicals, being screamed at by maniacs in the simulator, which recently caused one senior and respected captain to resign, no leave confirmed until a few weeks before, constant harassment by management over the smallest things, punishment culture.....f*ck...the list goes on and on....

FUN???? ......perhaps if you had just escaped from Pyongyang.....but not for any sane person.....

Last month, two guys were forced to be grounded because they had a "lightening strike". Even though they didn't fly through one cloud on the route, the engineers found a tiny hole on the nose, so pinned the strike on them.

The managers admitted that they hadn't done it, but someone had to be seen to be punished, so they got 15 days ground school - which involved staring at the walls doing nothing, without pay, as a punishment for a "crime" they did not commit. The sentence was later reduced to 10 days for good behaviour!

FUNNNNNNN

[galdian]

There's a reason why the $$$ are in China - and it's NOT all about a simplistic "pilot shortage" crap that so many trot out.

For the vast minority who "strike it lucky" and have a good run all kudos to them, right place/right time and the universe aligning etc etc.

For the vast majority - just another bucket of "sh*t Vs $$$" exercise.

However the quaint way the locals view "modern" aviation would have to be frustrating at times! :ugh:

Good luck to those who have a go at the "Chinese aviation lottery"!!

Cheers. :ok:

[blueonblue]

Hi everyone.

20-10 is the only option available to any new-comer, do not let anyone tell you otherwise. We are ALL based in Guangzhou, some just happen to have a reverse roster, this roster can change. If you are coming here, you are coming to china. Get that clear in your head first.

More concerning however, is the medical. If you get sick (I'm talking not being able to come to work sick) you will be FINED 600 dollars a day. We had one guy contract pneumonia and he lost 26000 dollars. If you fail an official medical you go on 100 dollars a day. Worth thinking about. We don't seem to be making any headway on this issue.

I like the job, and the people here. I'm staying but I am constantly afraid something like this may happen to me. We also have had an unusually high rate of bursting appendixes (is that the correct word) and said persons have gone straight to 100 a day. Your medical loss cover will NOT cover you if you are perfectly healthy remember, and we have had medical fails where the guy cant claim as there's nothing wrong with him. Beware of the risks before you join. So far it has worked out perfectly for me and its going well, I really like it. But others haven't had such a sweet ride. I'm just trying to get facts out there, no opinion or bitterness or attitude.

[Viking101]

Horse sh*t

There are no fines if you are sick. Period.

You have a certain amount of sick days per year. If you exceed them, then you will be deducted pay per day you are sick, but you will NOT be fined!!!

Stop sending out this bull**** info thanks

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[fatbus]

Fine or. Being deducted a day's pay are about the same ! It's cash they take away!

[blueonblue]

It most certainly is not horse sh&t. This happened to an individual who came down with pneumonia whilst at home in oz. please ask your colleagues if what I say is correct and come back on here and post your response.

[mach85]

It most certainly is not horse sh&t. This happened to an individual who came down with pneumonia whilst at home in oz. please ask your colleagues if what I say is correct and come back on here and post your response.

It's partly true. If you fall sick then you are able to use your sick/AL days together with your contractual days 'off' to cover the time you are away from work.
If you are off longer than this then you will be fined/deducted pay whatever you want to call it. How they work this out nobody really understands but it seems to be your daily pay rate deducted then the same again as a fine. Nice eh........

It's safe to say that the atmosphere in this place has dramatically gone down hill in the last few months. The reason for this is unknown but it is being felt by nearly everyone I talk too here at the moment.
As Chinafly stated earlier, guys are being dealt medieval punishments for things they didn't even do. Everyone is now looking over their shoulder in fear of...............everything!!

You will never feel relaxed here. Worried about medicals, checkers that hate foreign pilots, someone finding a mark on the aircraft you flew and grounding you for 15 days without pay etc etc. The list goes on.

As has been mentioned many many times here. Think long and hard why you are coming here and if you have another option then..................

Cheers,

[Ben_Al_Katre_]

Not very encouraging to read all these post! CSA was one my two options to escape the Middle East but it seems neither CSA nor KAL are what we are sold on the Roadshows. I guess I better stay where I am now and roast myself in 50+ degrees Celsius.

[donpizmeov2]

Any recent update on the MOMO options? thanks

[snak]

What's the best agency to be contracted with?

[StinkyMonkey]

I hear GABS is good...

[snak]

Any news about the assessments? I heard the pass rate is very very low especially for 737 skippers....not even reaching 20%.

[GolfMike72]

I heard that recurent checks are failing a lot of guys. Is there a problem now with the chinese instructors?

[doniedarko]

I heard the pass rate is very very low especially for 737 skippers.....

I heard that recurent checks are failing a lot of guys.


Jeez where you guys hear all this stuff ......

[mach85]

Jeez where you guys hear all this stuff ......


Well wherever they do their sources are pretty accurate 😜

Pass rate on 737 is about 20% apparently at the moment so not exactly what you would call 'high' i guess.

Guys are indeed failing recurrent sims aswell recently. 2 guys made down to FO after sim failure.........totally ridiculous when you hear what for 😫😫😫😫

Dont forget the LCK failures aswell though. A guy on 787 apparently failed recently for crossing the threshold at 60'. I mean come on seriously...........

[bringbackthe80s]

Well wherever they do their sources are pretty accurate 😜

Pass rate on 737 is about 20% apparently at the moment so not exactly what you would call 'high' i guess.

Guys are indeed failing recurrent sims aswell recently. 2 guys made down to FO after sim failure.........totally ridiculous when you hear what for 😫😫😫😫

Dont forget the LCK failures aswell though. A guy on 787 apparently failed recently for crossing the threshold at 60'. I mean come on seriously...........

IF this is true, how is this allowed to happen? How can a company with this kind of training fly (internationally!) ??

[DesertHawk]

I did the interview some time back on 330. depends what you consider a pass rate. Sim we had about 30 percent FULL pass on 330 and 25 on 737. this also included the ATPL and the Medical. was just less then 50 percent on the sim portion.

[motley flight crue]

Failing a sim ride assessed by Chinese is probably a good thing. Means your a good operator. I wouldn't let them push a shopping trolley.

[gatorman330]

wide body takeoffs and landings? 3/4 a month max, a320 maybe 40! 10 times as much exposure to the naughty boy QAR system and a 3000 usd fine, next contract i am going to try for the 330 easy life

[TMFI]

Do you knon if cz provide id 90 and zed with other airline?

[mach85]

Do you knon if cz provide id 90 and zed with other airline?

Absolutely not!!
As Cedrus mentioned, you receive 6 'staff tickets' to use on the CSA network but they are about as useful as a concrete parachute.
They are basically ECO STBY with the incredibly slim chance to upgrade them to confirmed tickets IF you are lucky enough to book on a day when about 10 different factors all align and allow you to book a confirmed seat 😫

From what i heard, some other Chinese carriers do offer ID tickets. Shenzhen for 1 certainly used to. No idea if they still do.
HNA apparently do although that would need to be confirmed by someone on contract there.

CSA package is far inferior to others and the only real pull here is the RSP. However with all the RSP's full and all of them with waiting lists, some of the other carriers look much more appealing.
Recently somebody told me that HNA are looking at various new roster modes to attract more pilots. Apparently they want to get something close to a 2 week on 2 week off roster by operating guys to their chosen port on 1st and last day of duty. Interesting if comes true..........

Cheers,

[blueonblue]

As regards staff travel, i've used it several times and it works fine. There are many better programs out there for staff travel for sure. Working as a foreigner in CSN is a relatively new thing for the chinese pilots and staff so there are constant comparisons between 'us' and 'them' and this does sometimes lead to friction.

Staff travel is one of those areas as any benefit 'we' are given is scrutinised by the local pilots for comparison with their contracts. They simply dont understand the life of a contractor as their country doesn't entertain the type of shenadigans that we (westerner contractors) are used to. Most of them don't even know what tax or insurance is as they dont ever need to know. A lot of the western guys come to china and sign a contract where everything is clearly stated them moan afterwards even though they are been given precisely what they asked for and signed up for.

Reading all this has left me totally confused. Where is it you guys all work that you are in a position to throw stones? I mean where are these perfect jobs? The only downside to this job is the time away from home and the stupid medical and its tough sometimes. if you cant handle china guys stay at home. It's not for the faint hearted and it's not for everyone. But man it isnt as bad as some people here have said, ill stay here for the rest of my career if i can dodge the dreaded medical pit...

[donpizmeov2]

blueonblue? still better blueonred!

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Reading all this has left me totally confused. Where is it you guys all work that you are in a position to throw stones? I mean where are these perfect jobs? The only downside to this job is the time away from home and the stupid medical and its tough sometimes. if you cant handle china guys stay at home. It's not for the faint hearted and it's not for everyone. But man it isnt as bad as some people here have said, ill stay here for the rest of my career if i can dodge the dreaded medical pit...

Blue-blue most jobs allow you to actually be the PIC, not get smoked upon, have some say when you get to rest vs. having the PIC tell you as the Cruise Captain when you will sleep. As I understand it the A-330 guys fly regularly as the PIC but on the Boeings you are still nothing more than glorified Cruise Captains begging for a landing occasionally, attempting to avoid a smoke filled chinese cockpit and pleading for a few hours rest during the night vs. being assigned the daylight rest periods along with the PIC dictating what fuel load and alternate airports you will use and denying you any input.

[Tasmanian]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ScdidQIkry0

[donpizmeov2]

Blue-blue most jobs allow you to actually be the PIC, not get smoked upon, have some say when you get to rest vs. having the PIC tell you as the Cruise Captain when you will sleep. As I understand it the A-330 guys fly regularly as the PIC but on the Boeings you are still nothing more than glorified Cruise Captains begging for a landing occasionally, attempting to avoid a smoke filled chinese cockpit and pleading for a few hours rest during the night vs. being assigned the daylight rest periods along with the PIC dictating what fuel load and alternate airports you will use and denying you any input.

Hey WY this was your post 5 years ago ...

"The Moral of the story in China is get in and get the cash for 2 contracts and then you are financially set for life if you can wisely manage your money. There is no job security here but it is very liveable. The medicals are atrocious and can be the most difficult part of the job. The flying is actually enjoyable if you have a mix of International and domestic flying and the young first officers even though not very experienced are eager and thorough. The environment is as described but there are some jewels in the rough. Sanya, Tibet, Sichuan etc. are incredible to see and visit. The job is different here than the Middle East as it is higher paying and MUCH more time off but the job security pales. Ask me again in 5 years and I'll tell you whether it was the right move or not. As with any Ex-Pat job always have a Plan B nearby. The beer here is actually quite good and very cheap. A 700ml bottle can be purchased for 3 rmb about 45 cents."

Now I'm asking the question again?

[doniedarko]

Just in case rumour might get in the way of some facts here. In the AMS base the majority 80% are PIC and operate as such. The remaining 20% have yet to complete PIC checks. This takes time and patience but it does happen.
The Guangzhou based pilots have a smaller number of PIC amongst the ranks of foreign pilots but they do less hours ;) again its a matter of time.
Smoking is forbidden by CS..........and not the 'big' issue it is made out to be here
Begging for sleep is a whopper:= as CS operate 4 crew so it is almost guaranteed that the CS crew are less fatigued than their equivalent 3 crew western counterparts.

[blueonblue]

And 'begging for sleep'????? LOL. Wyoming you don't work at CSN. That comment is absolute proof. There's 4 of us on every flight, fatigue is not an issue here whatsoever. There are issues as i said, but fatigue ain't one of them, that's just total rubbish.

[GolfMike72]

What is happening in CSA? I heard that 3 french captains A330 failed the recurrent SIM. For obscured reasons. Back F/O for 6-8 months at 6000$ per months? I think they all left or will leave the company
What is the reality about that?
Anyone on the place who could confirm what is the failure rate on a recurrent SIM?
Why? What is the reason?
I passed all the selection process and I am about to decide to join.
It seems scary on top of the medical check fail rate?

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Don,

I do NOT recommend these widebody contracts unless you want to get smoked on, have little to no part in the decision making process and want to beg for a landing. Regarding long term in China, I am a survivor so still here but as I said 6 years ago the medicals are difficult and most guys fail along the way somewhere as I have seen many ExPats come and go. Long duty days, chinese red tape and bureaucracy make the living here difficult at best. If you have other options like a major airline and you are below age 45 stay and pursue that route. If you want to give China a try pm me and I can guide you with my experience here. The money is good but the pain can be excruciating at times.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

And 'begging for sleep'????? LOL. Wyoming you don't work at CSN. That comment is absolute proof. There's 4 of us on every flight, fatigue is not an issue here whatsoever. There are issues as i said, but fatigue ain't one of them, that's just total rubbish.

I never said fatigue was the issue, having any say in which sleep cycle you get when you are not the PIC is the issue. No I am not at CS but have friends there and wisely choose not to get smoked on, beg for landings or play Cruise Captain in the middle of the night as the PIC rests comfortably thank you.

[donpizmeov2]

Hey WY

it's like 1 leg you are the PIC and the return you are relief or its more complicated?

[blueonblue]

Why would anyone pm someone who is not and has never been at china southern?? And whenever I didn't like the rest arrangement I asked for it to be changed and it was granted. In all my time there I only ever ran into one 'difficult' type and I used to run into 'difficult' types daily in my last job.

One thing for sure, don't come to CSN expecting to be leader Capt on ultra long haul having just come off a 320 or 737. Why? Well because you don't have a clue what you're doing that's why and it takes a while to learn, once you do, they will make you PIC, it's pretty much that simple. There have been a few experienced heavy blokes that are here that were 'quickly' made up. I did laugh a few times listening to ex short haul blokes tell all that they were 'fast track'. Made many smile that one. Sure it takes an awful long time, but if you don't like it then stay at home. Together with possible sim fail and medical it's a huge risk coming here. Mr Wyoming works short haul elsewhere in china and is ill informed as to how the contract works at CSN, true or false? Saying 'what a mate said' is a classic way of misinforming others.

[WYOMINGPILOT]

Why would anyone pm someone who is not and has never been at china southern?? One thing for sure, don't come to CSN expecting to be leader Capt on ultra long haul having just come off a 320 or 737. Sure it takes an awful long time, Mr Wyoming works short haul elsewhere in china and is ill informed as to how the contract works at CSN, true or false? Saying 'what a mate said' is a classic way of misinforming others.

You answered the question the exact same way my friends there have.

"SURE IT TAKES AN AWFUL LONG TIME"

In the meantime enjoy begging for a landing, running out of the cockpit as you get smoked upon profusely or sleeping during the day while the PIC sleeps soundly ALL NIGHT.

[blueonblue]

This always seems to happen, two people getting into a spat online. I've no interest in throwing bricks at each other, am merely pointing out that there's very little point commenting on something you know nothing about, and since you are not a CSN pilot nor are you a long haul pilot that your presence and comments on this thread are misinformed at best and simply false at worst. Everyone seems to have a different story, I have one colleague PIC on every flight he does, 120 landings this year already and hates it. Another younger colleague who recently became pic and does his level best to avoid performing a landing or being pic as he correctly points out that he isn't paid any more.

Added to that I have never begged for a landing. We operate long haul flights with 4 crew and that means 3 trips per month to go around, a requirement for all to perform 3 landings every 3 months. This means there's always someone that needs the next available landing to stay current, a requirement a short haul pilot simply wouldn't consider. It suits some, it doesn't suit others.

[chinafly]

Blueonblue is speaking out his arse.

I had 17 years wide body experience before joining; yet I, along with everyone else waited two years to be PIC.

I also did a 24 hour duty last week that destroyed me.

I also fly against my body clock doing fatiguing domestic in between a layover in China, not having slept a wink the night before due to time zone changes.

So to suggest fatigue is not an issue is just a lie.

Smoking is an issue. I've been smoked on repeatedly by the senior trainers and leaders as they chain smoke all the way to the glide slope, so you have no way to escape.

I also pay extra to stay in the Crowne Plaza to get some relief from the dump that is the pearl.

I've just done a 9 day trip to do the simulator - which involves sim sessions again at the other end of my body clock, and hours of pointless cbt and a pointless test. Luckily I didn't get a maniac instructor on this occasion - unlike the last time, which caused one senior captain to resign.

It would be nice to book a holiday to get away from it all. Oh wait, I can't book anything, because my leave is not confirmed until the end of the month before!!

The only reason anyone is here pure hard cash.

[StinkyMonkey]

Quick question for the Americans working in China:

Are the taxes paid in China sufficient to avoid paying taxes to the US?

I have previous experience in India, where "I paid" 33% tax, and that was of course high enough to not have to pay taxes in the US.

Thanks!

[Savage175]

The short story here is that CSA is not for everyone, both professionaly and financially. So speak/pm as many guys (who are actually here) as you can and understand that each fleet is like a different airline. Then do a screening and finally make your decision. Then feel free to complain about what you don't like.

[donpizmeov2]

The short story here is that CSA is not for everyone, both professionaly and financially. So speak/pm as many guys (who are actually here) as you can and understand that each fleet is like a different airline. Then do a screening and finally make your decision. Then feel free to complain about what you don't like.


It looks like the best fleet is the 330 and the worse 777! Anyone on that!

[tonisb82]

Hi Everybody,

My first post in here, I would like to request some information to the CSN pilots, I am in touch with direct personnel for the B777 or B787 offer. I have no idea about this broker so far, any recommendations?

I would appreciate if someone working nowadays for china southern would like to share his/her experience with me by pm or we could even meet maybe. I am interested in applying next year. I heard all kind of stories and Id really appreciate a quick chat.

Cool airs everybody!

[mach85]

Hi Everybody,

My first post in here, I would like to request some information to the CSN pilots, I am in touch with direct personnel for the B777 or B787 offer. I have no idea about this broker so far, any recommendations?

I would appreciate if someone working nowadays for china southern would like to share his/her experience with me by pm or we could even meet maybe. I am interested in applying next year. I heard all kind of stories and Id really appreciate a quick chat.

Cool airs everybody!

Tonisb82,
Here are some recent updates for you of life on the 777. All fact no fiction!

One foreign pilot made a 1.8G landing after a 20hr delayed duty through the middle of the night. 1.8G, no big deal right?
Well the whole crew got called in for a 'technical briefing' to explain what happened.
The PIC who was on the jumpseat for landing got asked why he didn't do something to stop this 'heavy' landing. What is he supposed to do. Scream from the JS and scare the living daylights out of the landing pilot.
The outcome for the landing pilot after his interrogation.......his landings are now being monitored by the QAR for the next 3 months!!! If he makes another over 1.7G in that time then he will be called back in for 're-training' sectors and another LCK or..........

Obviously it is much safer to land 1000M down the runway as long as its smooth 😫😫

Another guy on a busy approach got the landing flap in position at 1400'. Rule for the 777 is 1500'. He decided was safer to land rather than go around as airport was very busy with aircraft all over the place and a GA would have caused mayhem.
How dare you think as a Captain sir. Result- demoted from PIC.

These are real events. Im not saying more than that as each individual can decide for themselves if that is the kind of environment you want to work in. Each to their own.

Cheers all,

[EDDT]

Its good to hear stories like that from China, because with that attitude and culture, they will never become an economic threat to us / in aviation.

Regards from Europe and from an airline where "just culture" is implemented and lived. Noone will telephone you because you were established at 930feet instead of 1000ft, or because you went a little fast 36kts taxiing. They know you have reasons.

[chinafly]

Brilliant update.........all foreign pilots are being "invited"/obligated to attend a private meeting with management to review their whole QAR history, so that every QAR event, no matter how small, can be discussed on a one to one basis......

Just in case you forgot you are living in an Orwellian nightmare.....

[hamil]

... 1.8G landing ... The PIC who was on the jumpseat for landing ...

Well, why was the PIC on JS and not on his/her seat during landing?

[mach85]

Well, why was the PIC on JS and not on his/her seat during landing?

Hamil,

That would be known as 'Crew task sharing.'
From what I understand, this was a 20hour duty through the night with 2 take offs and 2 landings.
If both Captains have the relevant qualifications for that 'area' then why would you not split the flying between the 2 of you. 1 take off and 1 landing each makes much more sense from a fatigue management point of view.
Unless of course you are a control freak who has to do everything yourself.........

Cheers,

[vintageairliner]

I'm asking to the insiders the following:

if wage is "parked" on Chinese Bank account and if any limitation applies for
bank swifts abroad or if it's directly sent to personal account;

for CAN based Crews to commute abroad what kind of ticketing is provided
(i.e. GD travel , coach w. auto upgrade , upgrade by PIC , Purser ,station manager etc.)

thanks a lot for any help/ clarification. VA

[JDavola]

What's the average time that an expat would stay on this contract? Are there any that stick with it long-term, or mostly a single contract and out?

[bombinha]

Quick question for the Americans working in China:

Are the taxes paid in China sufficient to avoid paying taxes to the US?

I have previous experience in India, where "I paid" 33% tax, and that was of course high enough to not have to pay taxes in the US.

Thanks!

I would like to know anything about this one as well. If any american there could help please

[Camelonglide]

Tonisb82,
Here are some recent updates for you of life on the 777. All fact no fiction!

One foreign pilot made a 1.8G landing after a 20hr delayed duty through the middle of the night. 1.8G, no big deal right?
Well the whole crew got called in for a 'technical briefing' to explain what happened.
The PIC who was on the jumpseat for landing got asked why he didn't do something to stop this 'heavy' landing. What is he supposed to do. Scream from the JS and scare the living daylights out of the landing pilot.
The outcome for the landing pilot after his interrogation.......his landings are now being monitored by the QAR for the next 3 months!!! If he makes another over 1.7G in that time then he will be called back in for 're-training' sectors and another LCK or..........

Obviously it is much safer to land 1000M down the runway as long as its smooth 😫😫

Another guy on a busy approach got the landing flap in position at 1400'. Rule for the 777 is 1500'. He decided was safer to land rather than go around as airport was very busy with aircraft all over the place and a GA would have caused mayhem.
How dare you think as a Captain sir. Result- demoted from PIC.

These are real events. Im not saying more than that as each individual can decide for themselves if that is the kind of environment you want to work in. Each to their own.

Cheers all,


My first post here. Are there any CSA driver willing to share even via PM their month ON month OFF rosters?

[mach85]

Just to keep all the information(good and bad) coming for potential new joiners..........

A couple of months ago, a very close family member of a foreign pilot was taken ill. He requested time off to be there as his home country was far away from China. This was granted so off he went.
Subsequently incredibly sadly the family member passed away. The pilot stayed with his family to grieve and spent totally 1 month away from flying.
When he returned, he was told by his agent that he will not be paid for this month as he didn't fly. Not really surprising I guess as we are contractors.
Now he has just been informed though that CSA will be deducting and EXTRA 600$ a day for the 26 days he was away from flying. This is just so immoral it is really unbelievable!!!!

So the passing of a close family member will cost this pilot 35600$!!!!!!

This is all true folks no word of a lie.

Oh how we wish we knew they would interpret the contract this bizarre way before signing!!!!

What looks like a good salary will soon not be so when you step on a CSA landmine as we eventually all do.........

Cheers,

[donpizmeov2]

@mach85

... and where is the agency in cases like that? who is representing that poor guy?