US3 v ME3 - 'The Economist' weighs in

[fliion]

US3 v ME3 - 'The Economist' weighs in.

Airlines: Flights of hypocrisy | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21649469-airline-business-riddled-protectionism-answer-open-skies-flights-hypocrisy)


Also a University Professor cited in US3 report takes offense to being misrepresented.

COMMENTARY: US white paper on Gulf carriers distorts my academic report | Open Skies content from ATWOnline (http://m.atwonline.com/open-skies/commentary-us-white-paper-gulf-carriers-distorts-my-academic-report)

f.

[three eighty]

https://youtu.be/SM83KALhiR0

[shorty2rj]

Choice is a wonderful thing. Like the choice I get at an evil US3 on whether to fly 95 hours/month. There's also the choice to count time in the bunk as paid duty time. That's not so hard of a choice. I also have the choice to bid a predictable schedule so my body is ravaged by jet lag. I guess after shining up those suites, the ME3 kind of run thin on choice to spread around...

[fatbus]

Shorty that's not the issue is it?

[Neptune Spear]

Actual it is Fat. The Middle East loves to have it both ways. Open skies but not an open labor market.
The airlines in the Middle East and especially Emirates loves to dictate terms to suppliers, regulators and employees but will never accept anyone dictating to them.
The WSJ article and this Open Skies debate must be rocking their world. How dare anyone question the High and Mighty. Things are changing though. One can not treat employees the way they do in this tight labor market and expect a smooth operation or to have anyone happy.
How many 380s are parked right now? 2 will always be packed for the upper deck door cracks but how many Beasts are at OMDW?
Well back to message, the inquiry will investigate whether there are subsides or not in the Middle East. For sure at Qatar and probably the unmentionable. Probably not at EK. Just my 2 cents.

[shorty2rj]

When one tries to sprinkle the magical pixie dust of the ME3, a moment of clarity amongst professionals is certinaly called for. JMHO.

[fliion]

Shorty

Your handle would indicate you already know this...

Roughly half the movements of the US3 on a daily basis are flown by their regional contractors - whose atrocious and subpar wages of Cabin Crew and pilots SUBSIDIZE the Majors.

FO's on food stamps for many years if my memory serves me correctly...nothing like a little whipsawing of carriers every contract renewal...Comair put up a good fight though right?

You can beatch about about EK all you like (goodness knows we do) but we have never furloughed a pilot or downgraded an FO in 30 years due market conditions.

Many a furloughed major US airline pilot came here when they were kicked out onto the street by the mighty three (6?) and were luckily able to SUBSIZE the food on their table & their mortgages when their employer would not.

A little clarity please for those shorty on memory.

f.

[RexBanner]

Because they needed pilots not because they're a charitable organisation.

[nakbin330]

No 380s parked at DWC yesterday, 777Fs either.

[SMT Member]

The Economist article makes it pretty clear: The ME3 enjoys a union and industrial dispute free environment, which helps lower costs. The US3 enjoys Chapter 11, which lowers costs and sheds pension obligations.

The ME3 may, or may not, have benefitted from 42BN in aid; the US airline industry may, or may not, have benefitted from 155BN in aid.

Call it evens, and let's stay focused on the real thing: US3 are unable to compete with ME3, due to its incredible short-sightedness driven by Wall Street demands for ever improving quarterlies and an unhealthy focus on 'shareholder value', and have asked their government to intervene on their behalf.

As the article puts it, the US3 position is neither beneficial to the public nor the taxpayers. The only thing that would be beneficial to 'us', is a totally free market where anyone can fly between any two points anywhere in the world. That will revitalise the industry, create thousands and jobs and help more people to prosper. It might also mean a handful of US3 executives would lose out on huge bonuses, and that's where the hatchet is buried, so to speak. Since the US seems hell-bent on inverse income distribution, making the 1% richer and the middel class poorer, I can see why the US3 thinks they may be onto a winner.

[vfenext]

SMT, agreed its about the lack of ability to compete by the US majors. As TC said recently and I agree....
Have you been on a US domestic flight? It’s like travelling with a low-cost bus company. The terminals are full of frightened people sitting on the floors because they’ve no facilities, being shouted at by airline agents Same can be said about the so called big 3. It's far from a pleasant experience and a long way from ever being so. United are perhaps the biggest offenders in this regard, appaling pax handling and CC that are out of the Jurassic period.

[thatwasclose]

The reason the big 3 have such bad service is because they have workers rights. In the mid east we have none. They change our contract as they feel fit to do so. Remember that .

[Wizofoz]

So workers rights = bad service? Somebody should explain that to Richard Branson!

[paokara]

More than 80 percent of current EK drivers from the U.S. were RJ pilots that were not laid off. Some downgraded indeed, best to say wil be.... Shiny big jet syndrome, let the truth be known...

I would say this . They did what's best for them,however, others that stayed with their regionals they did what they thought was best for them too.

3000 new pilots get hired by American/delta/United annually and both groups can decide who made the best decision to attract the recruiters.

PIC or WB hours? So far I See PIC hrs prevailing for now, however things change, also think of this : for every year you delay your entrance to the big 3 you lose 300k yearly earning at the other end towards the end of your flying journey. But seen the rest of the world while flying a wide body for EK it counts for something too... Whatever is best for each individual

[Panther 88]

Pao,
Sorry but there are approximately 200 U.S. pilots at EK that have recall rights from their legacy carriers according to a former VPFOs. They may have been RJ drivers and left but all will be working their way back when the time is right for them. Let's see, right sear RJ, or right seat wide body for a few years and at least double the pay.

[paokara]

200 out of the 300 really? I guess then I know 30 percent of the RJ drivers there from one regional alone.... I thought guys from ASA Comair pinnacle mesaba express jet psa and others went there too.....

For the record per ALPA

62 percent getting hired are RJ drivers 29 percent military and 9 percent others

That's for Delta and United. Don't have the numbers for American since they are not Alpa

That's around 108 or so RJ pilots getting hired every month on delta and United.

[Heritage 1]

thatwasclose listen to yourself. Workers rights justifies the atrocious service on the U.S. carriers. So the public, who pay our salaries, must just accept that they must put up with it so the crew can feel safe and secure while they get away with service that would get them fired in the real world. I think not!

[120feet]

Pao,
I would guess that applicants at the Big 3 are 85% RJ, 10% military and 5% other. Meaning your odds of getting hired are better if you are Other or Military. I left the US right seat 320 for right seat widebody in ME. Not much different than moving up at a major. At the time, many moons ago it was a good job in the ME. Not any more. Which is why people are leaving droves. I can now work in the US get 50% more days off and almost never see the back of the clock. If I had kids it would be a no brainer to move back home. Both the US and ME carriers have certain cost advantages,over the other. I will say however 1 ramper in the US probably cost the same as a dozen cleaners at EK. Also, EK doesn't pay employee taxes like the US. Labor as whole is just a lot cheaper in the ME. The biggest reason for the EK success story though is aircraft utilization, and simple fleets. Their planes are in the air 40% more than any other European or US airline. Thats why they do so well. Now the Big 3 should go to BAH ask to build a big island airport off the coast and compete directly with the ME3. BAH airspace is huge and the WX is always nice.:cool: All IMHO

[vfenext]

Most of Bahrain airspace doesn't actually belong to them it's in KSA. They only control it because the Saudi's allow them to. Another well researched post :rolleyes:

[shorty2rj]

Shorty

Your handle would indicate you already know this...

Roughly half the movements of the US3 on a daily basis are flown by their regional contractors - whose atrocious and subpar wages of Cabin Crew and pilots SUBSIDIZE the Majors.

FO's on food stamps for many years if my memory serves me correctly...nothing like a little whipsawing of carriers every contract renewal...Comair put up a good fight though right?

You can beatch about about EK all you like (goodness knows we do) but we have never furloughed a pilot or downgraded an FO in 30 years due market conditions.

Many a furloughed major US airline pilot came here when they were kicked out onto the street by the mighty three (6?) and were luckily able to SUBSIZE the food on their table & their mortgages when their employer would not.

A little clarity please for those shorty on memory.

f.

As bad as the outsourced days were, any given day at US 3 made it worth it. Enjoy the WB mate. Had many friends take a furlough to a ME 3 only to come back to far better terms with the US3 that let them go. Hope u can actually fight for realistic working conditions some day.

[shorty2rj]

So workers rights = bad service? Somebody should explain that to Richard Branson!


Does Sir Richard own his own airline?

[donpizmeov]

Emirates airline could use European hubs to expand in Americas - ArabianBusiness.com (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/emirates-airline-could-use-european-hubs-expand-in-americas-592626.html?hootPostID=4294dd6061cc5bd2e8d7a5e98105f1e1)

[vfenext]

Shorty2rj is getting a bit out of his depth here.

[120feet]

Most of Bahrain airspace doesn't actually belong to them it's in KSA. They only control it because the Saudi's allow them to. Another well researched post :rolleyes:
-VFE


Dear VFE,
The last part was Humor. :rolleyes: However, your snarky jerky attitude was duly noted and is unfortunately one of the cancers we must endure here. For argument sake, I believe it has more to due with allowing a much more simplistic system than having JED QAR KSA and BAH all divvy it up equally. :rolleyes: Also, the 5th Fleet being in Bahrain likely continues to play a small role. My understanding is, (Please correct me if I am wrong.) airspace boundaries are an agreement. I doubt that BAH was given anything. Wait a minute, the Irish now own half the Atlantic someone should tell them!!:rolleyes: Oh and Piarco now owns most the Caribbean and central Atlantic!! Well done. I never under estimated the Trinny global ambition. But, rumor does have it that Venezuela is only allowing them to control the airspace.:sad: As far as an airport being built there, I am sure it would very comfortably fit within their maritime boundary.:rolleyes: And yes VFE:rolleyes:, I will do more research so I can make a more educated sarcastic post next time.:rolleyes:

[Airmann]

Not any more, Saudi has taken back all of the airspace that was controlled by Bahrain. Bahrain still controls Qatari airspace above FL230. Apart from that Bahrain controls its own airspace as well as international waters.

[Metro man]

I said this on other threads, the US can't complain about Middle Eastern airlines when they behave exactly the same way with their agriculture.

Billions of $$ in subsidies, protected markets, labour laws favouring the employer and products dumped in other markets at below cost price driving out the competition.

It's good and wholesome for their farmers to have unfair advantages but when US airlines can't compete against foreign competition it's so unreasonable.

They can't really complain when most US airlines are around 50 and below in the Skytrax rankings for 2014.

The ME 3 have a better product and consumers are voting with their wallets, that's free choice and competition. Possibly unfair competition but see if anyone cares.

[fliion]

IAGs turn....and consider This is is AAs big TATL partner...pendulum swinging?

"IAG responded yesterday - May 14 - to the US3's Gulf carrier subsidy claims. The response is pro-Open Skies and pro-competition. In the response IAG states: "The White Paper’s allegations on subsidies to Gulf carriers do not withstand scrutiny. IAG also has serious doubts about the way information is presented in the White Paper."

Some key takeaways from the doc:

- Not only do Gulf carriers bring competitive service and prices, they also stimulate the market, so that much of the increase in their own passenger traffic is incremental, not taken from existing operators.

- “IAG disputes the evidence and conclusions that unfair subsidies are being provided by the Gulf States to the Gulf airlines contained in the White Paper prepared by American, Delta and United. IAG believes the evidence and therefore the conclusions to be unreliable and wholly inappropriate as a means of informing important government policy decisions. The White Paper’s arguments should be rejected as a return to international aviation policies that protect airlines from competitors instead of fostering competition.”

- British Airways has faced direct competition from Emirates for over 25 years.

- The White Paper makes much of the Gulf carrier impacts in relation to passengers travelling indirectly e.g. between India and the US, as if consumers should be denied this choice. Passengers travelling between two points on the globe do not “belong” to any particular airline or group of airlines. Airlines must compete to offer passengers what they want. The outdated concept of “ownership” of passenger traffic must be rejected by all governments.

- Fuel subsidies to any of the Gulf carriers are non-existent. It is not credible to make allegations simply because the States concerned have large oil and gas reserves, especially when there is clear evidence that the carriers concerned have standard commercial contracts in place with well-established jet fuel suppliers.


The full response can be found here: http://www.eturbonews.com/58984/wron...d-right-etihad-emirates-and-qatar-"

f.

[paokara]

Qatar owns a good chunk of IAG and IAG wants them to increase it to 25 percent so they can buy the green airline from Dublin


So it is not a surprise !!!

[donpizmeov]

Etihad Airways (http://atwonline.com/open-skies/etihad-ceo-speaks-out-us-airline-campaign-against-gulf-carriers) has released a report that it commissioned that says the three biggest US carriers—American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines—have received benefits worth $71.48 billion over the past 15 years.
The report includes money that went to US airlines with which the three carriers have merged and the majority of the funds are related to restructuring under US Chapter 11.
The report, researched and compiled by international consultancy The Risk Advisory Group under a commission from Abu Dhabi-based Etihad, comes as the same US carriers (http://atwonline.com/open-skies/american-s-parker-calls-gulf-carrier-subsidy-unprecedented-feud-escalates) have embarked on a campaign (http://atwonline.com/open-skies/debate-over-gulf-carrier-access-shows-no-sign-cooling) in which they allege that Etihad, Emirates Airline and Qatar Airways have received some $42 billion in state subsidies. The US carriers and some US labor groups say this contravenes the fair competition rules of the Open Skies agreements between the US and the UAE and Qatar.
The US carriers (http://atwonline.com/open-skies/us-carriers-insist-they-only-want-talks-gulf-competition) want government-to-government consultations on the issue and a US government review is under way.
In a statement released late Thursday, Etihad said US airlines received benefits valued at $71.48 billion, more than $70 billion of which has been since 2000, “enabling the nation’s three largest carriers to transition from the verge of bankruptcy to today’s industry leaders, each achieving multi-billion dollar profits.”


US big three CEOs: We will go to Congress against Gulf carriers (http://atwonline.com/open-skies/us-big-three-ceos-we-will-go-congress-against-gulf-carriers)

The Risk Advisory Group, Etihad says, identified that the majority of benefits which accrued to Delta, United and American came from restructuring under Chapter 11 (http://atwonline.com/finance-amp-data/american-airlines-exits-chapter-11-merges-us-airways) of the US Federal Bankruptcy Code, yielding them at least $35.46 billion, and additional pension fund bailouts totaling $29.4 billion from the US government’s Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.
Etihad general counsel Jim Callaghan, said, “We do not question the legitimacy of benefits provided to US carriers by the US government and the bankruptcy courts. We simply wish to highlight the fact that US carriers have been benefitting and continue to benefit from a highly favorable legal regime, such as bankruptcy protection and pension guarantees, exemptions from certain taxes, and various other benefits. These benefits, which are generally only available to US carriers, have created a highly distorted market in which carriers such as Etihad Airways have to compete.”
Callaghan told ATW that the numbers were conservative and obtained from public records and statements.
The breakdown of the numbers, according to the report, apportion the large majority of benefits to United, with combined benefits estimated at $44.4 billion; followed by Delta at $15.02 billion; and American Airlines at $12.05 billion.
Of these figures, United achieved one-time bankruptcy debt relief totaling $26 billion, and pension termination benefits totaling $16.8 billion; Delta achieved bankruptcy debt relief totaling $7.9 billion, and pension termination benefits totaling $4.55 billion; and
American achieved bankruptcy debt relief totaling $1.56 billion, and pension termination benefits of $8.08 billion.
Callaghan said the claims by the three US carriers that they were being harmed by Etihad were baseless, and an attempt to obstruct higher-quality competition.


CEO: LOT Polish Airlines plans minimum 30% ASK growth in 2016 (http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/ceo-lot-polish-airlines-plans-minimum-30-ask-growth-2016)

Callaghan told ATW the report would form part of Etihad’s response to the US carriers’ allegations and would be submitted to the US government review.
“We are not going to get into a tit for tat. This is about having a balanced debate on this issue,” he said.
Callaghan added that the airlines are trying to characterize every dollar invested in Etihad by the Abu Dhabi government as a shareholder as a subsidy. “If you follow this line of argument you would also have to look at all other state-owned airlines such as Turkish Airlines and the Chinese airlines—many of whom are partners in the three US carriers’ global alliances.”
On Wednesday, Qatar Airways Group CEO Akbar al Baker (http://atwonline.com/open-skies/qatar-airways-chief-fires-back-anti-gulf-carrier-campaign) held a media briefing in Washington, DC to refute the subsidy allegations against his airline.

[Falck]

Hi,

And now the Dutch government blocked any futher growth from the 3 ME carriers in Amsterdam.

Because Schiphol and KLM fear them. This is based on unfair subsidies.


Falck

[paokara]

More countries to follow what Canada started many years ago

[SOPS]

Having worked for KLM for 18 years, I can say this. The government will protect them at all costs, you have no idea how deep KLM runs in the Dutch culture

The unions hold immense power. They will get what ever they want.

[bogeydope]

By KLM you mean "Airfrog" non.....?????

[White Knight]

I'm interested to know what 'further growth' there is in Holland! There is only AMS... EK have their double daily already...

[Metro man]

QATAR are starting Amsterdam in the next few months.

[Logohu]

And now the Dutch government blocked any futher growth from the 3 ME carriers in Amsterdam.

Kind of ironic, considering KLM and Schipol operate one of the original and largest 6th freedom hub operations in the industry. They probably gave the MEB3 the idea in the first place !
KLM were rooted from the day they merged with AF, not because of the MEB3

The White Paper makes much of the Gulf carrier impacts in relation to passengers travelling indirectly e.g. between India and the US, as if consumers should be denied this choice.

If consumers were denied the choice, many of them would fly to the US via another hub in Europe, rather than endure the service on board the US3 or Air India

[paokara]

15 hrs on a U.S. Legacy to JFK versus 25 hrs with a stop in Europe ?

I would buy my own food if I don't like what they offer.

Time is more important I would say!!!!!

[fatbus]

Go ahead, no one is stopping you!

[paokara]

One flight for EK to AMS
And Qatars will not materialize sorry

[SOPS]

And how do you know this, paokara.?

[paokara]

On the news what the lady in charge from Holland said today

Research it : aviation daily

Etihad frozen as well

Her name : Wilma Mansveld Dutch Secretary of Transportation



More countries to follow

[SOPS]

Have you got a link for that?

[Popgun]

Dutch Government Freezes Gulf Carrier Routes | TravelPulse (http://www.travelpulse.com/news/airlines/dutch-government-freezes-gulf-carrier-routes.html)

PG

[baps]

My guess there will be a legal challenge to this before EK drop their second flight to AMS so that could go on for months. As for supply and demand the loads on the AMS flight would suggest that the demand for the EK flights is there.

[donpizmeov]

The battle for the international skies | MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.com/roadmap/watch/the-battle-for-the-international-skies-448293443868)

[fliion]

Getting from EU/ US to Kerala with one stop is what the market demands & now expects.

If the powers that be change the regulatory dynamics then the market will adjust.

For example it is not beyond the realms of reality that in the event that the U.S. rolled back or restricted access to US points then look for large equity investments by ME3 in US (EU) partners to feed Dubai et al.

JetBlue 380's JFK to DWC in the next decade?

Laugh if you want.

f.

[6000PIC]

Well done Holland.
Until the ME3 treat ALL employees fairly with regards to their employment rights , compensation , collective bargaining and union affiliation , their strong arm tactics will be met with resistance.
The Dutch , the Americans , the Germans , the Canadians and Scandinavians are not about to surrender their aviation markets in order to sell the ME3 aircraft. Equally , they are not about to enable the ME3 to gain market share at the expense to the indigenous aviation business.
The ME3 business plan is based on seizing this market share by a combination of leveraging aircraft manufacturing with traffic rights , and by unequal labour practices.
Flawed ? Possibly.

[Iver]

Not sure if anyone saw this recent article:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102707034

How can Al Baker argue that QR is not related/tied to the government when other foreign contracts in Qatar are tied to airport slots for QR? Very confusing!

[paokara]

Sometimes money does not buy everything

Determination and perseverance does


By the end of the year we will find out but so far it does not look good for the ME 3

[Buford]

US airline CEOs speaking at National Press Club about ME3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn35xebnG7M

[Stone_cold]

Qatar Airway's 200 billion dollar threat to European airports - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/qatar-airways-200-billion-dollar-threat-to-european-airports-2015-5)

[LHR Rain]

Hopefully Qatar will lose the World Cup and lose the Open Skies debate.
Everyone knows they bribed their way to win the votes and the government supports the airline. A double loss.
Exposer. What every country in the Middle East hates because the facts have a way of coming out and how the dictators hate facts.

[Stone_cold]

UAE Canada dispute (http://www.dubaifaqs.com/uae-canada-dispute.php)

Seems to be the regional method of getting their own way .

[Trader]

Everyone behaves the same way with agriculture. Look at the the Euro market which has even more arcane protections. Two minutes on Google and you will find that this debate has been raging for years.

[paokara]

Dubai 2004




Make sure if you get an chance to interview with any of the 3 legacies to tell them about their service and how you could contribute from your experience in Dubai


If you apply of course

[Wizofoz]

Well, unless he's American, he can't, can he?

[Metro man]

The U.S. Cruise industry registers it's ships under foreign flags and employs third world workers on far inferior terms and conditions than American workers would command.

Their airlines are obviously jealous that they can't do the same thing. If they could they would have done it years ago and wouldn't be complaining now.

[shorty2rj]

So MetroMan, rather then complain should we just accept ME3 flight ops culture as the new template for this profession?

[north flyer]

There are some very good points about the US3/ME3 thing

US industry/corporations are just as brutal as any in the world, it's just business.

Airlines will always be in a fight and it will always be a dirty fight for market share, hub dominance, profits, whatever, it is ongoing and never ending.

That is the normal state of business, but that is EK's business, not ours as pilots.

Our business as pilots is to get and keep working condition that we can live with, with the limited means we have available to us.

I came to Emirates 7 years ago after 21 years with USAirways (now American) because the working conditions were better at EK than they were at USAirways, things have changed.

I would argue that what we are seeing here at EK is the playbook that was developed at the US carriers 30 or so years ago, before EK even started operations, by Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn and others, nothing new by EK, just the way it is and will be. One example is the overtime, taken away on 9 Feb 2009 with a simple email and a third of it given back 6 years later. I looked at the seniority, there are 3800 pilots (+/- a few) 2000 hired after 9 Feb 2009, so the company looks better to them than the 1800 hired before 9 Feb 2009, divide and conquer, simple, just business.

I have learned that you love your family, your country and your dog (you can pick your own order) but not your company. You have a business contract with your company. You are expected to hold up your end of the contract and you expect them to hold up their's. If you don't hold up your end, you will be fired, just business.

After what happened last week with our contract, it is time for us to get down to our business and let the US3/ME3 handle theirs.

As the saying goes, "it's not personal, it's just business".

[Metro man]

It depends on which point of view you are looking at the ME3 from.

As a passenger you are getting low fares, new aircraft and good service.

As a pilot you have career opportunities with these airlines which have undoubtedly grown the market. Compare the time to the left seat for a new joiner in EK vs Delta for example. However there are significant negatives such as the lack of union protection and employment laws.

As a western airline you have competition which you cannot match in terms of price and service. Your standards have declined over the years and suddenly your customers, who you have taken for granted are deserting you for a better and cheaper product.

As a western government you are keen to protect your local airlines but don't want to alienate the voters who want cheaper fares. Other industries have had to change with the times, some succeeded others didn't. Some sectors, particularly agriculture have tremendous lobbying power and have won significant protection and subsidies.

How much power should unions have ? Ideally more than the ME but less than the west were they can prevent change and ultimately send an industry broke.

When you take a cruise on Royal Caribbean the fares are low because third world wages are paid to the Philippinos working in the dining room, the Chinese cleaning the cabins and the Indians working below decks. Would you be prepared to pay the increased fares which would be needed to pay union rates to American workers ?

[120feet]

B717 seven year captain pay =$177,000 Not including Duty Rigs. Has twice as many days off as a 330 captain at EK and almost no night flying! I am not getting into the schooling and housing argument. But my best guess for upgrade at Delta is less than nine perhaps seven, same as EK. Currently EK 330 captains get PAID about $60,000 less than a MD-80 captain. Not sure there is much in the ME3's favor anymore on either the pay or upgrade time. The MIA road shows are mainly for the South American guys, as MIA is the easiest city for them all to get to. All this IMHO.

[Sqwak7700]

If the US big three want to really shut down the ME3, just hold roadshows in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Doha. Take as many of the American pilots working there as you can.

Done, ME3 would be severely crippled right there.

:D

[fatbus]

Everyone seems to indicate that every US pilot has already applied to the US3. So why do a road show? And why are all the U.S. Pilots still here?

[Neptune Spear]

Some U.S. Pilots are still stuck in the Middle East, not because of lack of trying.
A few have interviewed and failed. It has been said that they go to the interviews (some on layovers in ATL and SEA) and say or do something stupid. It has to be because they are so fatigued beyond belief they can't think straight.
It is a shame because so many are truly desperate to escape.
There are not a lot of US pilots left. The Americans used to be the 3rd nationality at Emirates now they are 5th and dropping fast. The company hasn't hired any Americans in awhile because they know most will leave so the number still here will drop faster than rock thrown into a pond.
Delta said they have about 160 Emirates pilots applications on file. I personally hope they hire all of them.

[paokara]

Neptune

I hope they hire them too however their negative outlook about service, older employees, and unions as well as negative opinion about the US legacies shows up in the interview

They need to change their attitude about us I was told by a a person that is involve in the interview process

[Desdihold]

Neptune,

EK has recently (this month) had several pilot recruitment road shows in the U.S. .
The cities were ATL Chicago, Miami and Las Vegas.

The recruiters have also sent an email to all US pilots working with EK asking them to encourage friends and colleagues from the U.S. To attend the road shows.

read the above......the company is actively pursuing US pilots.

I doubt EK will meet with much success.

[fatbus]

Even if all US pilots left , do you really think it will cripple EK ? Short answer - no. You ,like any other employee , is not valued and can be replaced .

[fliion]

True many Americans leaving but to those of us who have worked in the ex-pat world for many years....we know that making sweeping generalizations about what 'all' of a certain nationality are or are not doing - is fickle and naive...

One of the benefits of being here .... There are pluses you know..(despite mgt's efforts). Cue paragraph above.

I do believe attrition will continue to increase and I have a feeling that the response to our 1.3% pay cut (most conservative inflation figure last year 4.3%) was the last straw for guys who a year ago were in the 'comme si comme ca' crowd.

The next 3-6 months with new school years for kids starting in the Fall & JAN (Antipodeans) will accelerate attrition.

Which will be fun to watch

:)

f.

[Neptune Spear]

I totally agree that we as employees are not valued and can be replaced. I will caution management though that there is now a pilot shortage and it only is going to get worse in the years ahead.
Any successful company values its employees and Emirates has defied the basic business model for years. Treat your employees with respect and your business will flourish. No doubt Emirates has been successful under any metrics but with morale at an all time low, pay that is sub Industry Standard, work hours north of 90 hrs and treatment the company bestowed on us I can't see EK continuing its success.
Even if half the Americans get hired it will not cripple Emirates but they are the biggest group that has decided to make a statement. More Americans have left the last two years than any other nationality by far. So the question HR and the recruitment team has before them is who doyou want to replace the pilots that leave with or how are you going to replace them? Not a pretty picture.

[donpizmeov]

Paokara,

But the service really is ****e, and your crew are mostly grandmothers, can you please give the boys some more tips on what they need to lie about to get the job?

They are applying to fly aeroplanes, is it normal that they be asked service delivery and HR type questions in the interview?

[nakbin330]

Met a couple of candidates at the sim yesterday, one of whom had only ATR experience. The rot has begun ...

[littlejet]

what is rotten with turboprop pilots?

[SOPS]

That is very interesting Nabkin. I wonder if it is a one off or not.

[glofish]

what is rotten with turboprop pilots?

what's rotten with Cherokee pilots?
Nothing with both, they might both be great human beings and gifted pilots, but which one do you want in your WB right seat flying into ADD at night?
None of both, i hope.

There is a limit of inexperience that is tolerable with the kind of "training" at EK, which is more of a computer self tutoring with subsequent checking (and bashing). They tend to beat any experience out of FOs until they can mould them into the kind of skippers that write all those deplorable ASRs and wet their underwear confronted by 180 turns .....

The low hour and only regionally experienced 737/320 (and some RJ) rookies can at least fall back on some small jet/weight characteristics in tight situations. But turboprop pilots should join FlyDubai to get a minimum of that experience, as should all cadets, before operating heavies.

It will take another GulfAir catastrophe and all the boneless chicken in the bounty castle will be plumed by the insurance companies and the European and American AA.

Why should we care?
Because it could be you or me in a stress situation with a FO losing it like the AF ones.

[Wizofoz]

Everyone has to fly their first jet somewhere, what's special about EKs?

MUCH rather train an experienced TP pilot with EFIS experience and experience in working to SOPs than a jet pilot off steam gauges from an "irregular" outfit.

[fatbus]

I would rather train a 5000 TP pilot over a 2500 wet nosed 330/737 guy ant day. TP pilot might just appreciate the position.

[paokara]

Lies don't get you a job,
When you lie it shows like a clear glass during an interview

Proper and positive attitude gets you a job.

[GoreTex]

the problem is the EK training (checking) department, the clowns that run it came here with no experience, to survive in EK you need experience from a proper airline with a solid training department, in EK the training department is used to punish pilots who don't play along.

[170to5]

My guess is that nakbin meant that while there is nothing wrong with ATR guys in general, the fact that EK have for so long been so specific about weight restrictions, hours on particular types etc and have now suddenly started interviewing pretty much anyone who applies no matter what the current type and hours, it would seem, suggests that they are pretty desperate.

In that sense yes, the rot seems to have sunk in...but I don't judge a pilot on what he/she's flown and I suspect that nak didn't mean to.

[fliion]

From Emirates Group Careers

"Qualifications & Experience

Requirements for the Position of First Officer A330, B777
A minimum of 2000 hours, multi-crew, multi-engine, commercial jet aircraft"

something's fishy...

f.

[SOPS]

Yep, the weight requirement has gone for the 330 and 777. That's a big change. Lots of Ezy and FR guys applying? Me thinks not.

[donpizmeov]

SOPs,


The majority of new joiners at the moment have come from Europe, and the largest group of those would appear to be Brits.


Ahhh the lure of big shiny jets and sunshine....

[Mr Good Cat]

It's not so much the lure of the bigger jets and sunshine.

It's the refusal of Ryanair to assist them in choice of base for their command, or to give them any sort of help with it. The airline assumes once the carrot of command is dangled the guys will put up or shut up. Recently guys started to vote with their feet and the twenty-somethings with no wives, kids etc started to jump ship instead of taking their command.

These are the guys you now see coming through as new joiners in EK, QR et al.

The problem is that Ryanair have slowly started to ease off a little bit on the aggressive treatment. As has been stated on here they are actually taking back EK FO's with command experience and offering them what they want in terms of basings.

I think EKs problem is that the new joiner 'young guys' with no attachments to Dubai (wives/kids etc) can quite easily disappear on a layover and skip their 5 year bond just to get back to flying in Europe. The risk involved for them in joining EK is really very minimal.

Guess we'll see?

[nakbin330]

Correct 170.

[paokara]

Delta just Got a TA

Rumor has it 4 year with 12 % DOS plus 6% every year for the next 3


777 captain 310 per hr and FO 204 per hr day of signing
16 percent profit sharing
And 18 percent Bfund match



Still less than contract 2001 at both UAL and DL

[fliion]

That's impressive

f.

[Neptune Spear]

Delta pilots are going to be making even more money? Are there any Americans under 45 yrs old not considering applying now?
The Delta FOs are going to be making loads more than Emirates captains now and working less days.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Neptune…

Totally agree. I realize there are a few US guys who don't seem to mind the abuse at EK but for the most part, many have their apps in from what they tell me. 6 months ago it seemed not many were getting called for interviews, however with two of the three majors over there hiring 1,000 pilots each in 2015 and probably each year thereafter with those same hiring numbers, eventually the EK guys will get called. I think the US3 are running out of the Master's Degree'd, Military Instructor type applicants who have a few lunar landings on their CV, so the more mere mortals are indeed starting to get called

In fact I know of 3 guys now from the US who've received interview offers just in the past few weeks from some of the big 3 and a SW in their for good measure.

Kap

[eldee5]

For those of you with questions about the DL interview process, and the transition from the expat life back into the motherland, PM me.
Anything to get you plugged back into the Matrix.

[highlight]

Are there any Americans under 45 yrs old not considering applying now?

Neptune

Have been updating my apps for months now and nothing but crickets. You can apply all you want but it only matters if you get the golden call for a shot at an interview. Good luck with your new endeavor and making it back to States.

[casablanca]

I'm 45, and haven't applied.....sounds tempting but it's hard to go from wide body captain to first officer on 320 with 2 kids in college. I also am a little skeptical, maybe you will see 7 year captains at The majors in USA, but unlikely.
5 years ago Emirates was doing well.....USA airlines not so well! I have only been in the industry for 22 years but it has been a roller coaster! Hgh likelihood that in 5 years they will be furloughing again and then all those pie charts of how rich you will retire go out the window........ It's all luck! Wish everyone well though!

[Metro man]

Quote:Are there any Americans under 45 yrs old not considering applying now?

Try 35 instead of 45.;)