Cheap Shares vs Other cheap hours building

[Scoobster]

I know there is no such thing as 'cheap' in aviation.. believe me I have just been released from "The Priory" after checking myself into rehab from the expense of my PPL :E

But on a serious note, I have found one provider in the UK that I can rent a plane from.. without messing around with Monthly Fees/Annual budgeting for ARC etc.

I have a few constraints at the moment and can only do this on a "as and when affordable basis" and to keep current. I also want to enjoy the previlege of my license and build some hours at the same time.. plan a few trips to the highlands (Scotland), lake district, local area (london flying), experience the first cross channel flight etc.

Are there any "Private Individuals" who are not part of a group that rent planes? Sort of like a car hire place but for Planes...

Would it be worth getting a few friends together, putting in maybe 5k each and buying a plane? - Don't think this will be feasible though as an ongoing maintenance plan needs to be in force.

Any other suggestions?

Thank You.

Scoobs.

[Pom pom]

I did exactly what you're interested in with this chap at Bournemouth a few years ago, but it looks like he's still going strong:

Fly With Me Aviation - Aircraft Rentals Bournemouth (http://www.flywithmeaviation.com/Aircraft-Rentals-Bournemouth.html)

Enjoy!

[Heston]

No way would I rent anything from an organisation that litters their website with greengrocers' apostrophes.

[Scoobster]

If the chap at Bournemouth is the same one I am thinking of..

He came in non-competitive on a Wet Lease basis (close to 12k) for 80 - 100 hours with added landing fees on top and Bournemouth is a bit far out from Essex.

Has anyone bought their own plane for said purposes - with some reliable pilot friends whom you know personally?

I'm not sure how this would work - probably not as I would hope!

Scoobs.

[josher]

if you can tolerate the journey to bournemouth you can certainly get to Popham and this group - www.152group.co.uk I was amember a good few years ago. They provided great low cost flying and were well managed. They are a a bit anal about care of the aircraft but that means that the a/c are always immaculate and you are not flying the tired looking a/c typical of many larger groups and low cost rentals/non equities

[ChickenHouse]

The cost of flying only reduces if you fly frequently - simple rule of general commerce. Over the last years I had enough insight into GA to state that it is currently not possible to make a living on GA or even finance your living long term with any construction - they always eat up substance. This also means prices for hire are about what you need to only operate, not gain profit. Commercial rules apply also to group shares, so unless you find somebody keen on burning his substance money and cross financing your gaming, you have pretty much a constant money to spend for keeping your license current, either by owning or by renting.

[xrayalpha]

Three little letters: LAA

Forget about ARCs etc and get yourself a permit to fly aircraft: ie a Light Aircraft Association kit/home built.

[FleetFlyer]

Another vote for an LAA aircraft.
I'm in an LAA group and get all the flying I want for £50/hr + £50 per month. The plane is always available when I want it, and because the group is well managed we have not had any cash calls.

Why anyone would join a C172 group to fly VFR only for twice the price beats me.

[xrayalpha]

FF,

Why?

Well, we had an air traffic controller down here the other day who had a PPL for a few years and had only found out about the LAA last year! !

So the answer to your question: Ignorance. And, perhaps, due to an astonishing lapse in PR by the LAA?

[Scoobster]

Are the LAA the same/better/decent than say a PA-28, C-152, PA 28 Archer II etc?

I have found a 'strut' nearby so will make enquire.

I want to keep all options open for now and combine with PA-28/C-152 etc if need be.

S.

[shortstripper]

Not that there's anything wrong with the aircraft you mention, but you'll find most LAA craft far more fun to fly.

SS

[foxmoth]

maybe 5k each and buying a plane? - Don't think this will be feasible though as an ongoing maintenance plan

That is normally called a group! If you mean can you do this and rent it out as well, the answer is yes, provided it is a CAA aircraft and kept on the correct maintainance schedule.

Are the LAA the same/better/decent than say a PA-28, C-152, PA 28 Archer II etc?

This very much depends on the aircraft, some will be a lot cheaper and more basic than the ones you have mentioned, others may cost more to buy but will run rings round those aircraft at a much lower running cost - have a look at the performance of the RVs - RV7 for example https://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rv7perf.htm cruise at 140kts+, better load and range than a C152 and are aerobatic if you get the right one.

As Shortstripper says, they will almost all be more fun than the Spamcans you refer to!

[Buttino]

Have you looked at the North Weald Flying Group? There's a monthly fee but it's not too bad.

North Weald Airfield Flying Group Essex | Air Experience Flights (http://northwealdflyinggroup.co.uk/)

[ChickenHouse]

One more thing - what is your mission profile? If you only hover for yourself, LAA may be an option, even though I doubt they are cheaper on the long run. Maybe they look cheaper on new purchase, but will they last as long as the old workwhores?

[xrayalpha]

Buy a Zenair 601 with 200-400 hours on it with a Rotax 912, fly 100 hours a year, sell it with 400-600 hours and - if you have serviced it well and kept it clean (we all know cleaning an aircraft helps you find defects early!) - you'll get your money back.

Yes, you will have servicing costs of anything from £100 a year to maybe £1000 a year, and then you get your money back!

Or buy a Cesspit and pay 7k a year for a CofA or whatever it is called nowadays, and then really struggle to sell it, and run the risk of a major mandatory mod that will cripple you.....might be cheaper just to scrap it....

ps. Weightshift microlights now do 100 mph, LAA (and some microlights) will do 140mph (Statute) ! So no hanging around floating in the sky!

[shortstripper]

ps. Weightshift microlights now do 100 mph, LAA (and some microlights) will do 140mph (Statute) ! So no hanging around floating in the sky!

No good for hour building though!

But what you say about buying, flying and selling is very doable :ok:

SS

[Scoobster]

Mission Profile - Fly around and see what aircraft I like... Visit different airfields, take friends family up.. and see what else there is other than a C-152, PA-28, DA-40!

Build some good flying experience and enjoy it for a bit.

I had a look at Vans Aircraft site....

I did read somewhere about the Zenair 601 being re-called due to a wing falling off (or something along those lines) !

What would be a good LAA Tourer?

[Maoraigh1]

There are 2 Europa monos on AFORS. One is said to be on Ebay. If you can get hangarage, and do simple maintenance, a wood-and-fabric tailwheel aircraft could give very cheap flying. Jodels, Condor, etc. Long lasting aircraft if looked after. Continental O200 or C series engines.
Or an Evans VP1 - and build many hours on short flights into a strong wind.

[FleetFlyer]

@Chickenhouse -Yes an LAA administered type will last just as long as a CofA aeroplane.

The aeroplane I fly was built in 1946 and has been in continuous use ever since. It's the design and manufacture of the aeroplane and how well it's looked after that governs whether it will last, not the airworthiness authority involved.

I'm sure there will be Glasairs flying until the fuel runs out, but there may be fewer MCR01s remaining due to the less robust nature of their design, necessary for the low weight their designer needed to achieve.

As for cost, you can have a very similar aeroplane to mine, a taildragger Cessna 140 on a permit or a C150 on a CofA. Their construction is very similar if you get a metal winged 140. The 140 will have the same 0-200 engine and will achieve the same numbers. However the 140 will cost you £300 for the annual permit renewal whereas the 150 will cost you £5K and upwards for its annual. This is assuming neither need any work doing. If the 140 needs work and you're handy with the spanners then you can do many things yourself. On the CofA machine you can change the oil and that's about it, everything else is at £££££££ rates from certified engineers.

Like I said, if you don't need IMC capability, you'd be nuts to go with a CofA aeroplane these days.

[Scoobster]

FF- Are permit to fly aircraft not suitable for IMC operations then?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Legally not at the moment.

In practice, yes some are, and there's a project going on at the moment to obtain night and IMC approvals for *some* LAA PTF aeroplanes. The Bulldog, some RVs and the Glasair are in the vanguard I believe, but others will hopefully follow.

G

[Crash one]

Join he LAA, join your local strut, ask about types, performance, maintenance, get to know people, fly with them. At that point you will probably not want to know about CofA spam cans, club rentals etc. you could buy a wood & fabric 90knot two seat taildragger in better condition than a 152 for less than £15k, & sell it for much the same in 5yrs, having had loads of fun and hour building in the process. And learned how to look after it.
Cessna & Piper groups and club rentals are for people with huge flight bags & big pilot watches.:ok:

[Maoraigh1]

P to F aircraft were not allowed by law to fly in IMC or at night in the UK. But this may change - at present the LAA is testing a number of types. Jodel DR1050 and Vans are among them.
Before EASA, I flew our DR1050 at night. (About 17 hours total.)

[SlipSlider]

Fleet Flyer As for cost, you can have a very similar aeroplane to mine, a taildragger Cessna 140 on a permit or a C150 on a CofA. Their construction is very similar if you get a metal winged 140. The 140 will have the same 0-200 engine and will achieve the same numbers. However the 140 will cost you £300 for the annual permit renewal whereas the 150 will cost you £5K and upwards for its annual. This is assuming neither need any work doing. If the 140 needs work and you're handy with the spanners then you can do many things yourself. On the CofA machine you can change the oil and that's about it, everything else is at £££££££ rates from certified engineers.

Sorry to be pedantic but to clarify: in the UK there are Cessna 120s on LAA Permits, but no Cessna 140s which are all on CofA. And as things stand, no more Cessna 120s can be added to the permit fleet.

[FleetFlyer]

I stand corrected!
There are still plenty of Luscombes, C120s, older Pipers etc around though. I wouldn't advocate moving something either into the permit system from CofA or importing anything. The paperwork involved is simply too much.

I do however wholeheartedly endorse buying a share in an already established group for the purpose of cheap permit based flying.

[Above The Clouds]

Crash One
Cessna & Piper groups and club rentals are for people with huge flight bags & big pilot watches


I have a Piper Cub what is wrong with Pipers :p

[Crash one]

Above The Clouds
Quote:
Crash One
Cessna & Piper groups and club rentals are for people with huge flight bags & big pilot watches
I have a Piper Cub what is wrong with Pipers


It crossed my mind but too quick on the submit button.:ok: