Camouflage

[ShotOne]

Looking at the video of an F3 engaging in spirited low level stuff in the Falklands, I was struck that the light grey scheme actually blended surprisingly well with the sea. Anyone with direct experience care to comment?

More recently, on a TV piece showing a staged attack by Grenadier Guards, their multicam looked very pale and conspicuous amongst green English fields.

[Maxibon]

In this wonderful time of austerity,we wear a clothing system that is almost designed to meet every requirement (bar snow). It's credit to those hardworking designers in DSTL et al that we are given such wonderfully comfortable and practical apparel, stylish in its design and well tailored.

Oops sorry, sarcasm mode was engaged.
It's actually, erm, crap.:D

[orca]

As ever there is an element of 'it depends' about it. On a high to low intercept over the sea the sea state itself has a big part to play as does the sunlight (the sun would 'highlight' a lighter colour - and might glint off fighter and target alike). I have clear memories of struggling to pick up GR4 over the sea - and having to get lower, sooner to try to find them - whereas usually they were a little too dark to hide and stood out a long way. Conversely I remember looking down over the bright blue Scottish water and seeing a F-3 as bold as if it were Dayglo. With an overcast and some surface spray the lighter grey of the F-3 would probably be quite effective. Of course, that's only the visual spectrum catered for.

Any leader worth his salt would spend a significant part of the plan getting to grips with the environmentals and where they would favour you vice the opposition. Naturally when you got out and about you'd occasionally find your thinking a little wide of the mark!

[cokecan]

i can't comment on the A2A merits of light grey, but from the ground is pretty effective at making low-level fast jets difficult to see against the land-sea-sky mix... how much much more - or less - effective it is compared to the old grey/green, or green schemes i can't remember. getting old you see.

MTP is, as far as i'm concerned, a god send. i've used it in Afghanistan, and now i'm in civvy strasse i use an old smock for work (rural land management) as well as for lots of shooting, and i find it better than DPM in most environments, whereas DPM significantly outperforms MTP only in the densest, darkest coniforous plantation.

DPM, imv, got too dark both as constituant colours, and because the pattern got smaller (put a 1970's DPM against a mid-2000's DPM and you'll see what i mean). the overall effect became a dark green/brown man shape - MTP's colours however match a much wider array of landscapes (heath, moorland, deciduous woodland, rocky mountain, scrub, arable farmland...), and the pattern disrupts the 'man shape' much more than the close patterned dark blob of DPM.

DPM is still excellent in natural woodland once theres a bit of vegetation about, whereas MTP can become a bit pale, but as an overall system its (imv) far superior.

/geek off/

[Kluseau]

A slight diversion, but within the spirit of the thread title: what was the rational behind some Vulcans (notably XH558) carrying the grey/green camouflage across the whole of the underside as well as on the upper surfaces?

[BBadanov]

When turning at low level, the Vulcan would flash a lot of undersides from that huge delta. It was trialled that all-over wraparound grey/green was a visually more effective camouflage than a light coloured underside.

[MPN11]

And the Black Buck aircraft had overall dark grey undersides, presumably optimised for the night attacks.

I vividly recall seeing the first one so painted, as I cycled to work, with its nose sticking out of [5?] hangar ... the first indication that 'something was going to happen' involving Waddington.

[glad rag]

In this wonderful time of austerity,we wear a clothing system that is almost designed to meet every requirement (bar snow). It's credit to those hardworking designers in DSTL et al that we are given such wonderfully comfortable and practical apparel, stylish in its design and well tailored.

Oops sorry, sarcasm mode was engaged.
It's actually, erm, crap.:D

Well if you want the best you have to be prepared to pay for it.....


http://www.projectgecko.info/reviews/2015/3/1/uf-pros-smallpac-monsoon-rain-suit-part-1

[etimegev]

I remember some long time ago a DCI, or some such, came out which asked for ideas for a helicopter camouflage/concealment system for use on the North German plain.

My suggestion that an array of bright lights in a big flashing arrow with the words "helicopters here" - with the thinking that the Sovs would believe it to be a double-bluff - was, apparently, not acted upon! :E

[Cows getting bigger]

I did a very short stint at Kingsfeild in 89 where the RAF first played around with the peculiar desert pink scheme on a C130.

[albatross]

Just a comment.
I read in a book about WW2 that a tank group were about to advance when a trooper pointed out a camouflaged German tank to his officer. The officer and nobody else could see it. Turned out the trooper was colour blind and could see the tank when others could not. He spent the rest of the war on point so to speak.
I never found out if this ability was reported and any studies were carried out to see if colour blindness was an asset in detecting camoulfaged ememy positions or vehicles.

[Stu666]

albatross, the ability of those with certain types of colour blindness to detect camouflage is fairly well documented, I believe a number of studies have been carried out over the years. You'll find all sorts of examples on Google, colour blind air gunners, snipers, infantry etc.

There are some other interesting advantages associated with colour blindness, such as better night vision, and the ability to detect movement at greater distances. An interesting fact I once read is that a study discovered a higher than average instance of colour blind males in the South East UK areas that were historically prone to invasion. There is some debate as to whether the condition is actually an evolutionary advantage. As a sufferer myself, I've found it more a hindrance than a help, but it certainly keeps my kids amused! :ok:

[Stanwell]

Yes chaps,
During my time in the army (infantry), I found that, when out on patrol, I could distinguish potentially nasty things the others couldn't.
This also got me a number of gigs as observer on rotary-wing missions.

I also found that my night vision was (still is) superior to that of others.

My particular deficiency, according to the Ishihara(?) test, is red/green.
The downside was that it meant that, in those days, I would never be able to hold a CPL. - Pish!

The strange thing is that, later on, it didn't stop me becoming a successful graphic designer. Go figure.
.

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Small is good, big is bad. Huge is....

AD grey is triffic in the welkin.

black is bad.

filthy huge dirty smoke trail will take you to a German Phantom at the end of it, or the steelworks at Duisberg.

radar can keep eyes inside when a look out of the window might reveal what you seek.

gentlemen don't fly at night when cammo doasn't count.

Never fly over water with possibility of a CAP. Never fly over water.

keep wings level and bunt the ridges.

wets

[barnstormer1968]

Shot one.

I would say that MTP is a very good overall cam scheme.
There is no particular cammo that works well in a field, which is why soldiers add local foliage to themselves.

DPM was designed to a very different criteria and while it worked well in its ideal setting (less than 75 metres in deciduous woodland) it appeared as a dark shape at longer distances.

MTP is good in many environments and at all kinds of observed ranges. One reason it would have stood out on the TV programme you saw is that the show was filmed with digital cameras. Although the MTP would have been different to the surroundings you saw it may have been less so viewed with the naked eye.

German Flektarn cammo can also appear very bright and orangey when filmed with a digital camera, but is a very effective cam when viewed with the naked eye.

All that said, many people don't like the newest MTP uniforms as they don't like the pocket arrangement etc, but then many naysayers of the new uniform don't wear it on patrol/front line either. Once you are wearing body armour and have several pouches around you the lack of a decent chest picket for fags or choccy becomes a non event.

[Stitchbitch]

Why are F-15Cs a different grey to the 'shoot me down' dark grey F-15Es?:suspect:

[Davef68]

Because the F-15Cs are up with the angels, but the Es are down in the mud, mainly at night

[ExAscoteer]

I have to fundamentally disagree with the earlier posters about MTP.

While the MTP-PCS is a far better clothing system than was CS95 (albeit with too much velcro), the MTP camouflage system is, IMHO, fundamentally flawed.

It works fine for where it was designed (the fertile areas bordering on desert such as in Afghanistan) but it is certainly not Multi Terrain.

In temperate European areas the only time it works IME is in grassland, and specifically grassland that has not become lush (ie that green/brown grass you see in early spring or late summer/autumn).

In woodland it is worse than useless and, more worryingly, at night in any sort of ambient light the wearer stands out like a Belisha Beacon!

I have operated on the Plain, STANTA, Catterick, Sennybridge and Otterburn - the only place MTP really worked was April/May at Catterick, otherwise it was appallingly bad.


I would agree that DMP became darker post CS95 which degraded its effectiveness - early DPM was far more effective.

I would bet a pound to a pinch of salt that within 5 years we will be back in a woodland type cam.

[Runaway Gun]

Its always a great source of amusement to see the Camouflage uniforms that have dayglo reflective material sewn in.

[BBadanov]

A peacetime OHS requirement.

[Al R]

I can't post a picture, so the link (below) will have to do. I found my old gillie suit the other day, which would, I'm sure, still pass muster. As I said, I was quite pleased I had 't seen it for years!

In the right hands. It's not just the gear - it's guile, cunning, expertise and having the training and confidence to know you can succeed. Counter-surveillance, as I recall (and I will dig out my STANOC notes - well, actually, I won't) is the art not of becoming invisible, but remaining unrecognisable and undetectable.

A trip to SCRDE is the late 80s resulted in me being given a pair of goggles which reduced the heat signature from my face - at the time the threat then, envisaged that in 10 years everyone would have their own set of TI. It didn't happen, certainly not by the time I bowed out. But they meant well so I showed willing but I felt so detached and dislocated from the stalk they went straight in the bin.

https://twitter.com/raf_ifa/status/591883062029451265

[Wensleydale]

...not forgetting the days of TACEVAL when the NBC Suits had to have your name and details written on the white sticky tape that sat in the middle of your chest. Looked just like the aiming point on the standard range target.

[gijoe]

'All that said, many people don't like the newest MTP uniforms as they don't like the pocket arrangement etc, but then many naysayers of the new uniform don't wear it on patrol/front line either. Once you are wearing body armour and have several pouches around you the lack of a decent chest picket for fags or choccy becomes a non event.'

Correct - opinion garnered during the countless trips to Costas, Timmy Horton's or to collect the mail whilst telling people they should have tried harder at school.

MTP is good stuff and if you think CS95 helped you disappear into a treeline then it is only yourself that you are kidding - see Al R's comment about STANOC above.

:ok:

[barnstormer1968]

ExAscoteer.
I think you are being too harsh on MTP, well that or seeing temperate DPM through rose tinted glasses.
It has to be worth remembering that MTP is a jack of all trades pattern and as such is better than DPM in urban environments, better at longer range, better in mild to heavy snow, better against rock or sandy backgrounds.
I too think the '68 colour mix on temperate DPM was better than the last colour mix, but DPM was a compromise too, and would have needed at least three colour pattern options to work well in all seasons in a temperate environment.

I think Brit forces may well go back to a more barrack orientated uniform before too long, as things like untucked shirts aren't ideal in the Brecons in winter :)

[Danny42C]

Reverting to aircraft camouflage, the green/brown of our Vultee Vengeance dive bombers was near perfect over the Burma jungles in WWII.

D.

[Wensleydale]

The picture speaks for itself..


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrpKPSS2OM7CYw0Da8MP8uymL0Pi31Z3eektEOJdi p28aCUulcYg

[chopper2004]

In the 80s, the US Army repainted all its helos from Vietnam green to CARC Chemical Resistant Coating which is not green green nor is it black black. Dependent on whether the sun hits or not, or grey overcast clouds, it can look black.

Though there are a couple of examples where US Army helos have gone grey, like their fixed wing counterparts. One was during Op Praying Mantis / Prime Chance during the 1980s when the Nightstalkers MH-60A were sea grey when deployed on the MSBs in the Persian Gulf. First time I had seen a grey MH-60 was in 1990 book called Screaming Eagles, 101st AD when the author took a photo over Sabre AAF flightline can see all the A/MH-6 Little Birds and MH-60 with one grey sticking out.

The second example was the South Carolina ARNG AH-64A during Iraqi Freedom in light grey. I am not sure if that was a one-off and said airframe(s) have gone back to CARC

I have not seen any US Army rotary or fixed wing in mottled grey green camou but the USMC had went from green in 60s/70s to 80s green grey then desert sand brown and desert brown/ mottled grey during Desert Storm and thereafter and then all grey now.

I am mildly surprised that since Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom, no one went back to painting all mud movers desert brown like they did a decade earlier as with the Tonkas, Harriers, C-130, Lynx, Junglies, Wokkas, Trimotors,

The French have always had some form of desert style camou on some of their ALAT SA330C fleet and Gazelles probably due to ops in sub saharan continent in the 80s.

I take it there's a reason why our Longbow fleet does not have the bog standard camou paint job as was on the Lynx/Gazelle fleet. Most of the global operators of the 64D have the same coat of paint as the US Army brethren bar the IDF/AF ones

cheers

[Wensleydale]

Not so much camouflage, but the deception cockpits make you wonder which way is up!


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/attack/a10/a10_18.jpg

[AR1]

Years ago, my bike was painted in Yamaha France Blue, At night time under the security camera system you couldn't see it. Just the black seat apparently in mid air. Weird. If ever i'm asked to gain unauthorised access to somewhere, I know which colour I'm wearing.

Rubbish in the daytime though.

[MPN11]

Not so much camouflage, but the deception cockpits make you wonder which way is up!

In this case, Part 3 of the holy trinity of 'camouflage, concealment and deception'

[Martin the Martian]

I do wonder why the false canopy is not used more often, as I have heard it can be a very useful device. The only other regular use of it is on the Canadian CF-18.

A serious question, and one which has often puzzled me: back when they did the trials at Chivenor of different colours on the Hawks the overall black came back as the one with highest visibility. Granted, when seen against the sky. But in what way is it more effective than the old red/white/grey scheme when seen against terrain, and if was so good why did some aircraft (Dominies and ETPS Alpha Jets) receive white wingtips? It has bugged me ever since the decision was announced, and I still can't see it (pun not intended).

Mind, I still think trainers should be all yellow, or silver with yellow stripes...

[ExAscoteer]

The all black schemes were to do with reflectivity. They certainly did stand out better at low level than did the earlier Red/White/Grey.

The Dominie had a tendency to vent fuel at high fuel weights on hot days. Had the wings been painted black it would have exacerbated this problem, hence they were painted white.

Additionally it was judged that, had the fuselage been all black then the cabin would have become unbearably hot (especially in view of all the extra electronics fitted to the post DAU aircraft). Thus the white roof.

[MPN11]

Re: False Canopy ... one of my functioning brain cells tells me that I once read that the Canadians had patented the idea.

Alternatively, I may have been under the affluence of inkahol, and dreamt that.

[Wensleydale]

The story around crew rooms was that the device was too effective, and following a couple of near misses during combat training, the false canopy was dispensed with as a safety risk (although it could always re-appear during times of tension).

[ExAscoteer]

Re: False Canopy ... one of my functioning brain cells tells me that I once read that the Canadians had patented the idea.


I think you will find that it was the USN that started it with the 'Ferris Schemes'.

[MPN11]

Thanks, gents. Anyway, that was Deception, a rich dish of its own.

Back to Camouflage, with a side serving of Concealment! :cool:

[MarkJJ]

MK 1 tropics were the bright coloured DPM. Seem excellent most of my time in the grass.

[diginagain]

Lynx AH1 in black/dark green was quite easy to spot on the North German Plain, particulary as the Gem engine would deposit a nice sheen of oil down the sides of the fuselage making them quite shiney.

The later (1980s) grey and light green scheme was much more effective, allowing the aircraft to blend in with the forestry at ranges greater than about 2km.

[TEEEJ]

Martin the Martian wrote

I do wonder why the false canopy is not used more often, as I have heard it can be a very useful device. The only other regular use of it is on the Canadian CF-18.

Other air arms also adopted the false canopy. See following links.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/536038-what-happened-camouflage-2.html#post8378853

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/536038-what-happened-camouflage-3.html#post8379443

From

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/536038-what-happened-camouflage.html

The Russians also use the false canopy on some of their Flankers

Photos: Sukhoi Su-27UB Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia---Air/Sukhoi-Su-27UB/2493746/L)

Photos: Sukhoi Su-27UB Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia---Air/Sukhoi-Su-27UB/2468274/L)

[Al R]

The A10 was hard to (FAC) control because, partly, of that canopy. Other jets would tip in, on a fixed heading, and you could generally control them in with relative ease. But the A10 would loiter and sometimes only be seen, fleetingly, above a woodline of tactical crest. So you'd instinctively pick up the visual cues (heading, attitude, bank rate and 'canopy' etc) and give instructions based on where your eyes told your brain the jet was heading (and where the pilot was looking). Invariably, you'd be wrong. If it was hard for us, a terrified GBAD bod running a pulse of 150, in poor biz and trying to calculate aim off in nanoseconds would certainly have their work cut out.

[Tengah Type]

August 190 in AHQ Riyadh the Brits were all wearing European DMP, as at that time there was no UK Desert Kit available ( allegedly sold to the Iraqi's).

Questions from our ex-colonial cousins as to why we Brits thought it was a good idea to fight a desert war dressed as trees, was countered by the response was that they were to do the desert fighting, while our plan was to fight in the oases. Mostly they believed it!!

[ColdCollation]

I have the same issue(?!) as Stanwell - CP4 reds/greens, according to the Ishihara test... and yet the missus always congratulates me on my shirt/tie combos and even asks me to colour-coordinate her when she dresses.

There are some non-intuitive issues relating to shade differentiation. I remember standing at the mouth of the River Tees looking at the navigation posts and being asked what I could see. They were both 'black', and yet I was assured that one was red and one was green. On the other hand, I was asked once by someone to do the coloured lights test - as a test/practice run - which the CAA was using just a few years ago. I failed. The examiner said that she could see from one light to the next whether something was yellow/white/orange etc. I, by contrast (see what I did there?) was seeing all sort of sharp whites, warm whites, etc. I could 'see' the colours. The problem was that if the light I'd just seen was, say, yellow and the next was paler, to me (by process of elimination) that had to be a white.

I remain adamant that I wasn't 'wrong' but that how I see was overcomplicating things. I hope that makes sense.

On DPM, I'd add my weight to the argument that the earlier 72 Pattern was the better compromise. By the time CS95 came about, all it was good for was thrashing about in the pine.

In fact, when MTP first arrived, my immediate reaction was to wonder why they didn't just re-use 72 pattern.

But then I obviously see things differently to most people. :)

[Martin the Martian]

ExAscoteer:

Thank you, and that makes a lot of sense.

[Pontius Navigator]

Chopper asked why the earlier desert brown was mot used the second time around.

The reason is probably a different aim for concealment. The desert camouflage would work when there was a significant air threat. If no air threat then optimise your camouflage the next higher threat.

As for the false cockpit, the Vulcan too when it went to all over gave the same result. On the first Red Flag the aircraft had either anti-flash white or light grey. Near invisible until it banked when it flashed Here I Am.

With the new scheme you knew it was banking,but which way?

[Daf Hucker]

Gentlemen, surely if you need to wear some form of camouflage you are far too close to the enemy. I prefer my camouflage uniform to be in the form of a business suit, so that I can blend in at the hotel.

[Pontius Navigator]

DH, not been in many hotels recently? :)

Seriously even in hotels like Hilton, Sofitel, and a certain London club during weekends, you would stand out like a sore thumb in a suit.

When I used to go up to town I felt underdressed without jacket and tie. Now, in Londistan I feel overextended in a jacket.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Wensleydale,

Your picture shows that the Vulc would've been ideally placed if it had been static. However, ISTR that the principles of camoflague/ concealment were:

Shape Shine Shadow Size Silhouette and Movement

- your Vulcan would've still stood out against its surroundings unless they too were doing around 240 kts in the same direction.

I'm currently finding that colour schemes meant to provide high visibility under all circumstances are - as commented by AR1, M the M and ExAscot - occasionally counter-productive. My bright yellow 135, when moving slowly along powerlines at around 30' agl, is invisible to nearby aviators/airfields when I'm anywhere near oilseed rape or even wheat/barley fields. The Filton Air Ambo, which is a particularly lurid green, was (this afternoon) like the proverbial dogs-bits when observed down-sun but invisible against most backgrounds if viewed into sun. As for gliders on sunny days... a real pain to see, despite (or, more likely, because of) the white colouration.

[ShotOne]

Which begs the question why the majority of civil aircraft are mostly white in colour!

Come to that, I watched a Dutch submarine come in to port recently; I don't know whether black is hard to spot from the air while submerged but it's very conspicuous on the surface.

[VX275]

After a number of mid-air collisions and near collisions the Air Cadets put large patches of Dayglo on the wings of their gliders. The problem was that at the range you'd want to spot the glider so that you could avoid it the patches broke up the outline and made them harder to see. Result - Dayglo camouflage.

[Pontius Navigator]

As it is a submarine . . . .

What does show up well underwater is the white and red escape hatches

[MPN11]

VX275 ... you highlight the 'shape' issue nicely!

[Shaft109]

I heard a scheme where the control surfaces of white GRP aircraft would be fitted with a silvered window tint style silver foil that would twinkle with the constant twitching of the controls.

Did anything come of this as it sounds like it had merit.

Also I have a picture of a Viking being winched with dayglo patches. Port side not much use in the bright light but the Starboard side the duller conditions meant that wing was invisible save the patches.

See
http://www.edenbridgeaircadets.com/whatwedo.php?page=6

Getting something to work under all conditions seems difficult

[MPN11]

Getting something to work under all conditions seems difficult

That's why people still, generally, see aircraft ... either from the ground or in the air.

The multi-spectral challenge has moved on from "painting it wiggly brown/green". There are so many dimensions to CCD its almost a science in itself.

Many lessons were learned in WW2, and subsequently ignored, other current ones may depend on technology ... but slapping paint on an aircraft [or things on the ground] can have complex consequences.

From my relatively limited work in this field, I vote for "Deception" as the others are really rather hard to achieve.

[melmothtw]

Many lessons were learned in WW2...

The Germans certainly seemed to have made some advances in the field of aircraft camo....

http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag380/garethjennings1/me109akdesert0iq_zpstp13vey4.jpg (http://s1373.photobucket.com/user/garethjennings1/media/me109akdesert0iq_zpstp13vey4.jpg.html)

[MPN11]

A classic photo, against the perfect background.

At 5,000 ft in a furball, how would that look from, say, 500 yards?

Like the Vulcan over Canada, a static shot aginst an ideal background in only a fraction of the story. ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN 11, the first question is what is the threat. If the greatest threat is from Air to ground then a static camouflage is fine. If it has air to air benefits then that is a bonus.

[Wensleydale]

Civilian aircraft are white to reflect heat - keeps the walking freight a bit cooler.

[MPN11]

MPN 11, the first question is what is the threat. If the greatest threat is from Air to ground then a static camouflage is fine. If it has air to air benefits then that is a bonus.
Indeed, PN ... if the threat is A>G in a purely visual context, then appropriate terrain-matching camouflage paint is certainly an option [provided the ground colours/patterns remain broadly constant at every deployed location].

However, I personally believe that a mix of concealment and deception is probably more effective in the 'static aircraft' context - especially the latter. In that context I would rate dummy aircraft, and indeed operating surfaces, as highly effective decoy/deception measures. Indeed, contra-camouflage [i.e. decidedly less than optimal] could/would attract the attention of attacking forces.

At one stage I was starting to attempt to acquire multi-spectral* Tornado decoys for deployment at MOBs specifically to attract the attention of the 'bad guys', whilst dispersing the 'real aircraft' around the airfield periphery. Then the Cold War ended ;)

* including in-built thermal image generation

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, I believe with the UK Base huge quantities of paint and money were wasted on tone down. Tone down against what?

The threat from tactical aircraft using optical systems was non-existent.

The threat from missiles was real but the defence non-existent.

The threat from strategic and tactical bombers was possible but using tone-down was illogical against a blind bombing devices. To a bomber, identifying a target wad unnecessary, we would aim at what our friends would call a PRSL or precise radar significant location. The only defences there are interceptors, missiles, and jammers. I wonder why we never deployed ground jammers?

[Wensleydale]

...and sometimes there is no camouflage.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11193430_10204992746872948_919365681762533109_n.jpg?oh=c50c1 fbc049231558ae6ce4a16dabe87&oe=55D82023&__gda__=1439448739_bee41a83e28f788f3214a8f715cd15fd

[MPN11]

PN ... agreed on UK tone-down, although RAFG would have a different argument as the threat from tactical aircraft was more significant.

Your point on PRSL [new term to me, but I know what you mean] is well taken. That's where I would envisage, for example, deploying radar reflectors and other signal generators in an attempt to create false offsets/IPs. It won't fool everyone, but anything that diminishes the weight of an attack is of value: high-speed approaches to targets in a hostile environment leave little room for error, and if those can be created there are tangible benefits.

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, PRSL were anotated on the US 1:200,000 charts we used. A good example of radar camouflage was during WW 2 when the Germans covered a significant water area in Hamburg to shift the town centre.

[MPN11]

And do we do anything to repeat the good lessons of history? Nope!

In my office we had a WW2 camouflage manual - a very informative read. I wonder where that went?

[Wensleydale]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11007721_536234679852150_2153058606368133261_n.jpg?oh=9450f2 25cfb8c3f2eb2003205b9d2c5f&oe=55DC9519&__gda__=1440764482_96cca6d179539b07e150ed9c2350219c

[glad rag]

..when you can hide standing up.

http://www.hydedefinition.com/images2/gallery/Yours/DSC00246.jpg

[MPN11]

DirtyProp ... See previousus page *cough* :)

[Al R]

Blimey, I didn't think it would have been that effective.

[DirtyProp]

DirtyProp ... See previousus page *cough* :)
Thanks, missed that.

[glad rag]

Good Guys wear GreenZone? - Hyde Definition (http://www.hydedefinition.com/latest/?p=999)

"Although PenCott™ patterns are in use with a number of elite police and military special operations units, its not very often that photographs emerge of these units wearing the patterns in action. However, last week a photograph appeared of Austria’s elite SWAT unit “Einsatzkommando COBRA” in action during the operation to apprehend a poacher who’d murdered a paramedic and 3 policemen."...