EK : south west airline pilots join fight against ME 3

[Desdihold]

http://m.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2015/04/23/southwest-airlines-pilots-union-joins-fight.html?r=full

[highflyer40]

Why do all American Airlines moan about the"unfair" subsidies that others may or may not receive? They would all be non exist memories if they weren't allowed to declare bankruptcy protection, wipe their debts and start afresh... How nice that would be in the rest of the commercial world

[paokara]

Because we can just say no you don't fly here anymore

You can cancel our agreement and we don't fly there and you don't fly here

Or like Canada does, we have 2 flights you get 2 flights

And don't buy Boeing go buy Airbus ...


Also don't ask us to babysit you and protect you from ISIS and alike with our tax money

You are on your own!

[highflyer40]

Haha you need the worlds routes more than they need US routes, and if foreign airlines stopped buying Boeing their doors would be shut in months.

And ISIS?? You really don't want to go there... American foreign policy is why their there to begin with.

[jack schidt]

Totally agree that...

The ISIS situation is a result of western foreign policy gone mad. The U.S, along with its puppets went in to try to control the oil in those countries. The hornets nest was stirred up and when they got stung they just ran away and left the chaos that it still is today 2 decades on. :ugh:

Boeing has been given a massive reprieve and saved as much my the ME carriers as by its own government.

All this whining from the US is like a super spoilt child who has an uncontrolled screaming fit until it gets its own way. When the U.S. carriers stop running flights with 77 yr old crew ( I spoke to them in a passport queue last week), stop paying over industry standard wages (controlled by unionisation) and run a service and route structure that is competitive, then expect the paying public to chose the "better" and/or cheaper airline.

Passengers have their choice, make a better service and a more competitive price and the U.S. will get its share of the cash flow.

Please, STOP this whining as Uncle Sam definitely does help to keep the U.S. airlines in the air. In the ME, especially in Dubai, the airline is the one who pays the government (the other way to your system), it is more than competitive, so enough whining.

I have to add the disclaimer that I am not American but sadly I am holding a passport of a country I love but for the politicians who run it. By the way, even BA was saved by the government, but in true British spirit, the whining and fits or tantrum screams are much less vocal than the Americans.

J

[Am NOT Sure]

Paokara

Dragging Isis into this and suggesting that USA bills its wars to the taxpayers is the funniest thing I have heard in a very long while

[paokara]

The end is near the honeymoon is almost over

Enjoy your Europe Asia and Australian flying

Btw you don't have to file the FSAps for over 16 hrs flying and extending duty or illegal schedules to the U.S.

Fly your CI400 .. It is an order now


And ISIS who ever started is your threat , ask the Yemenis and Sarabians...they are changing diapers daily there... UAE does concern too

Get out while you can UK Europe wherever you are from , get out before us too late

[sluggums]

Dude, you need to learn how to write better English, very little of what you say makes any sense.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

paokara- Btw you don't have to file the FSAps for over 16 hrs flying and extending duty or illegal schedules to the U.S.

Fly your CI400 .. It is an order now

The latest notam doesn't apply to ULR flights so I guess they can't be too concerned about 16hr timings can they?

You tried to get into EK didn't you paokara? That little fact makes your rants very pathetic.

[Laker]

Jack Shidt,

The US Airlines are not "whining." They are making allegations that EK is not abiding by the agreement to which they are a party. They have 1,000 pages of documentation supporting their allegations. Whether or not these allegations are true will be determined by a third party. Whining is what occurs on the pprune ME forum on a daily basis. EK has gotten used to bullying employees and regulators to get their way. If you don't like it quit, if you don't give us what we want we will cancel 200+ orders, etc, etc. Dubai gets what Dubai wants. Finally someone calls them out on it and we all act like some great injustice has occurred.

If the US Airlines were paying too much or operating a poor business model it would be reflected in the results. American Airlines just reported a profit of 3.4 billion Dirhams for the first three months of 2015. Delta pays appx 50% more for drastically less flying and still paid out 100,000+AED profit share to each pilot. They are both on track to make about 12 billion AED profit for the full year 2015.

Old employees, ugly employees, fair rostering practices are a product of an environment that affords workers the right to organise and demand fair treatment. Hardly something we should all be mocking. It's funny that we bitch about contracts not being honoured, zero credit for sims or leave days, FTL's constantly tweaked to the employers advantage, a regulator that looks the other way, and a punitive work culture yet any company that provides these rights is somehow "out of touch." Rant over

[glofish]

Laker

I'm with you on that one.

[Neptune Spear]

Great post Laker!
I was thinking the same thing.
As an aside shouldn't the worlds pilots be emulating the US pilots instead of the other way around? I would kill to have 1/2 their work rules and 3/4 of their pay.
Everyone loves to jump on the US but part of it has to be out of jealously.

[Am NOT Sure]

Laker - incredible post

its high time someone turns the beam on the practices here

[SOPS]

Great post Laker.

[MerAir80]

Paokara,

I am not against US at all but after all the BULL**** you've written........Dude, you must be joking!!!! Wrong way to support your point of view.

It's even pointless trying to expain why you are wrong.

[harry the cod]

50% more pay? Sorry LAKER, going to call you on that one. No doubt those guys who are more senior will be doing nice routes and less hours....but not for 50% more pay. 12 year EK Captain clears $19,000+ each month with accommodation allowance. That would put a 12 year Delta guy CLEARING $28,000 every month! I don't think so.

Other than that, nice post. I can see both sides to this so interesting to see how it's going to pan out.

As for the Delta profit share, it might not only be them getting that figure this year.. You may be closer to the truth than you realise. ;)

Harry

[ironbutt57]

EK guy wins with the money..Delta guy wins big time with the lifestyle..

[WYOMINGPILOT]

"12 year EK Captain clears $19,000+ each month with accommodation allowance. That would put a 12 year Delta guy CLEARING $28,000 every month! I don't think so."

Actually a Delta 777 Captain earns about $280/hour with Int. override so 80 hours pay credit equals $22,400 add the 15% retirement puts him at about $26K/month. If you add in his per diem and if he picks up one extra trip of Open Flying he will exceed 30K per month. Remember PAY CREDIT is not flight time as Pay Credit includes Duty Rigs/Trip Rigs/ minimum daily pay etc. Not saying this is normal but is realistic for widebody Captains to earn figures in that ballpark not to mention he/she probably only flies 3 trips a month or about 9 total working days to get 80 hours credit time.

[highflyer40]

And what's the tax on the delta guys pay? The EK was take home pay.. No tax apples for apples and all that

[harry the cod]

I didn't include the education allowance of another $16,500 per year or the 15% that EK also puts into the retirement fund, around $22500p/a. That's another $3000 + per month net, every month. Then there's the saving on not having to have a second car and curries are cheaper here and............

I don't want to turn this into a pissing competition over pay. The fact remains, as Ironbutt57 has already stated, conditions and lifestyle are perhaps more important. Given the choice, I'd pick a Delta position with a nice big villa in Florida. I just wanted to highlight to LAKER that his figures were slightly off.....by around 50% :p

Harry

[Trader]

Harry - I'd agree with you except for the Housing Allowance. The allowance MAY work out for some people who have bought but it is an obvious risk. If people want to comment about Apples then you have take into account interest, loss of investment income from your downpayment, maintenance and other cost etc etc etc.

I still contend that the housing allowance should not be included in your analysis since it is not a given and bears significant risk. It is NOT a true form of income. If we are to include housing then we should also be factoring risk analysis and comparing it to the risk you hold in owning property in the US.

[aveo]

Harry and highflier

Do you have a U.S.accounting degree? I guess not.

Approximately 28% tax bracket.

They don't tax the following on monthly pay check.

1. Social Security - retirement gov
2. 401k - retirement A
3. Retirement B/C - depending on if want to be taxt now or after your retirement age.

The above is taken from your Gross monthly pay.

15 year Southwest 737 Captain $ 30,000 a month gross this if he works full time at 100 block hours or 1000 block year. Or 150+ credit hours a month!

Schooling is FREE in the U.S.

Come tax year. Deductions for at least the following:

Housing interest paid.
Wife and family.
Business expenses
Airline expenses
Other business transactions.

What IRS takes minus the SS and retirement a month, you get back "almost all" of it at tax filing. 9,000 to 12,000 depending on your expenses and deductions. So almost NIL or not tax at all.

Housing:

Do you acrue equity in your company accommodation for the 10 to 15 years in Dubai? Nope. You used that allowance if you want to pay off your rent if you leave out.

Does owning a home in the U.S.
acrue in equity? Yes - well above your allowance over time plus the U.S. Gov takes care of the interest charged for owning a home.

What is your overall "Net" worth to an American 15 year SWA capt over a 15 Boeing/Airbus CA over a life span of 10-15 years? No comparison! An FO don't even lose their salary security when they transfer over.

LAKER is spot on!

For the 2 of you, don't be boastful for something you totally have no understanding about.

[The Turtle]

Thanks for the post Wyoming now please excuse me whilst I go throw up

[BYMONEK]

There's risk almost everywhere, not just in Dubai which, by the way, I'd hardly describe as significant. Off plan maybe, built, less so. History has examples of expats having 'their' homes demolished in Spain because of legal irregularities, land rights contested in Cyprus, homes commandeered in Zimbabwe, Kenya and even talk of South Africa now.

Yes, UK and US along with many other places generally safe but even if you're not taking the accommodation allowance, the benefit of a free villa with all bills paid cannot be ignored. Your own house 'back home' can be rented and that's extra income as you are now no longer the one paying the mortgage, along with a notable decrease in expenditure courtesy of Company paid water/electricity/gas/etc

It really doesn't matter what source the money comes from, it's the final amount that gets into you saving account that matters, yes?

[harry the cod]

aveo

Nothing boastful about it, merely setting out the facts from EK perspective. I know little about the complexities of the US tax system other than it's variable dependent on State. Do I assume from the example you gave that the Southwest Captain, working his 150 hours + credit (overtime?) can claim almost all of the tax back. So, take home is still around $30k per month? Not trying to stir the pot, just curious as that's one hell of a take home. That's something I would want to boast about! ;)

As for accruing equity, no, not on a Company provided free villa but you still accrue equity on the home that's rented out back home. Just because you don't pay the mortgage doesn't mean the property stops making money. It's not just US properties that make equity or did they not teach you that when you did your U.S accounting degree? I guess not.

Never mind, just hope you haven't 'invested' in Baltimore. Not much equity there now i'd imagine. Come to think of it, not much anything there now............

Harry

[caber]

Highflyer, could you please present the dates of when Southwest filed bankruptcy?

Keep researching, we're all waiting for an answer.

[Alconguin Crusader]

I will have to agree that a Delta pilot making more than 50% more than an Emirates pilot might be a bit high. However when you include everything and I mean everything there is no and I mean no comparison between the two pilots.
A Delta pilot works 10 days max. In the very near future an Emirates pilot will be lucky to have 10 days off a month.
A Delta pilot works 75 hours a month while a Emirates pilot works 95 and soon to be over a 100 hours. . That 25% difference in work hours is equivalent to the tax burden back home (and abroad if you are an US citizen).
Also a U.S. Major pilot has a much better lifestyle back home. He lives in a bigger house, has a bigger yard (not a garden), and can join a better country club or just a country club. Even FOs in the states have a better lifestyle than an Emirates captain. Note I didn't say salary but that is very close.
We can argue tax implications, lifestyle and whose male organ is bigger but with all things equal (we are not comparing RJs to wide bodies) there is no comparison. How many Emirates pilots are trying to get to Delta vs how many Delta pilots are trying to go to Emirates? I know of two Emirates pilots that left Delta many years ago and have re-applied to go back to Delta.
Here's hoping to a very large Bonus and pay raise.

[aveo]

Here is your remarks to Laker.

Boastful and no understanding:

"50% more pay? Sorry LAKER, going to call you on that one. No doubt those guys who are more senior will be doing nice routes and less hours....but not for 50% more pay. 12 year EK Captain clears $19,000+ each month with accommodation allowance. That would put a 12 year Delta guy CLEARING $28,000 every month! I don't think so"

This is your question to me:

"Do I assume from the example you gave that the Southwest Captain, working his 150 hours + credit (overtime?) can claim almost all of the tax back. So, take home is still around $30k per month?" >> Yes, it's called a CONTRACT!


This is your statement:

"That's something I would want to boast about!" >> They don't have to. They know each other's (legacy) contract. Like I know yours.


"As for accruing equity, no, not on a Company provided free villa but you still accrue equity on the home that's rented out back home.Just because you don't pay the mortgage doesn't mean the property stops making money." >>> It's called "Other Business Transactions ie Vacation Home, Investment properties, etc" in the U.S.! Did I say you "don't" accrue equity in your "other" properties around the world? Do you know how they appreciate or depreciate in "market value?"


"It's not just US properties that make equity or did they not teach you that when you did your U.S accounting degree? I guess not. " >>>> Where did I say that? I guess not!

"Never mind, just hope you haven't 'invested' in Baltimore. Not much equity there now i'd imagine. Come to think of it, not much anything there now............ " >>>> Not all, I can freely live, move about, and invest in 50 states and the district plus "other countries as well." Try not to go below the belt when someone calls you out in your "uneducated" rant.


This is your true stamens you made thus far:

"I know little about the complexities of the US tax system other than it's variable dependent on State."

***

Do not include the educational allowance in your computation in comparing it to the U.S. since its a given they have to pay that as part of "expat" expense. Especially, the cost of education in Dubai is well above the allowance theshold which "you" have to pay out, that is not even including the 4th child, the extra curricular activities that you have to pay. Would you like me to mention some more you that you pay out?

Like I said, Lakers post is spot on.

It's not about which airline is better, which nationality can top each other, or the mentally of which my country is better than yours. It's about the best choice and opportunity you made for your family and yourself. It's called, RESPECT. If don't like it, you are free to leave that airline.

If you want to be "educated" some more in private, let's meet up at a "Costa" place of your choice.

[Saltaire]

The housing argument is an interesting one. There is certainly a benefit to company accommodation but what is it really worth?

Harry, you include housing rental income back home? Maybe for you but that's assuming of course one has a house "back home" or elsewhere. Accruing equity is a very valid point. Many have lost out on substantial gains "back home" not owning a home thinking they can simply save enough in the ME. Personally, I would struggle to buy the house we left "back home" due to the huge appreciation in price over 10 years. Aveo has some very valid points and it would certainly be relevant for those from parts of the UK, Australia and Canada as well as the US.

Let's hope next week helps us all out a little bit more.

[pilotrob23]

Southwest has not been in bankruptcy, and has made money every year since they existed, except maybe the first year I think, when they had 3 aircraft. And they pay per "trip" hours, it is a different system then what other airlines are used to. I have many friends that can average 130+ trip hours a month, if they can work the system correctly. Some also enjoy many more flexibility in that they can work even part time if they wish. I can't say with 100% certainity if things have changed in the past couple years, but it has been like that for a long time. Just FYI. Cheers

[BANANASBANANAS]

This may help put the value of company housing into perspective.

In my previous company I received housing allowance (fair but not generous) and had to pay income tax.

My gross salary each month was exactly twice what I currently get (net) in Emirates. My disposable income after paying for accommodation and income tax was almost exactly the same as I have now.

The thirteenth month's salary in December (guaranteed) and generous profit share is a story for another day.