Military organisational politics - and the progression to senior ranks

[tartare]

As an observer of organisational behaviour, I've often wondered if the military is as viciously competitive when it comes to progression to senior rank as the the Corporate world is.
A former Australian Army officer described it to me this way "...when you reach the rank of Major, it's a significant career turning point. Because from then on it becomes much more competitive. A lot of people make the decision to leave."
The air-force equivalent in Commonwealth air-forces would roughly be Squadron Leader - right?
So from that point on, my assumption is that as well as being technically exemplary - one must be an astute political animal as well - without being seen too much as a Machiavellian back-stabber that no-one trusts.
I guess what I'm asking is to what degree organisational and unit politics play a role in promotion - the perception many civilians would have is that it's a very mechanistic process based on time served, entitlement, ability etc. but that surely it's not that simple.

[Secret1]

Many reach the ceiling of their competence at Captain rank, as per one such individual currently playing soldiers in Australia. Given his well known abuse of illegal drugs, smoking, drinking, and ungentlemanly / un-officer like behaviour in Cirencester, London, Las Vegas etc, has realised. or been told, that he should seek an alternative career where his talents will be more suited. Of course, he will be free to continue wearing a fancy uniform occasionally whilst enjoying free lunches in numerous messes for the rest of his life. Astonishingly, he will also get further promotions without having to work for it, probably becoming a General on some birthday or other, just like daddy!

[ACW418]

Not Secret,

Have you inside information? It is a massive leap of imagination to state that Prince Harry has reached his ceiling in the promotion stakes.

I think you need to delete your post. I suggest you take up running a Fish and Chip shop - you will never be short of chips with that kind of attitude.

Each to their own views I suppose.

ACW

[Jumping_Jack]

without being seen too much as a Machiavellian back-stabber

I've seen a number of examples where this trait is an absolute requirement to get on.....:hmm:

[teeteringhead]

Machiavellian back-stabber Was it not said of the Green Jackets - who did disproportionately well in Army careers - that they were "born with a silver knife in their back". ;)

Secret1

Done much Apache flying in Afghan yourself have you.......??? :=

[Al R]

I had a very enjoyable and fascinating chat with a retired VVSO officer last year who let me in on the nuts and bolts and machinations of promotion/appointments/postings at the highest level. I won't go into the detail, but one of the aspects which struck a chord was that the higher you ascended, the more close mates, confidantes and drinking buddies from one's peer group slipped off your radar. I think I suggested it would make an incredible book. And it would.

[tartare]

Very intriguing.
You are all starting to back my assumption.
Wherever there is competition over scarce resources - there will be politics.
Be it money, women, power, or what is on your epaulettes...
Intriguing - more dits please - anonymous of course.
And BTW I ask purely out of curiosity - nothing more than that.

[Wander00]

I can think of those from one Entry at the Towers where a number reached very senior rank. They covered the whole spectrum from "backstabber extraordinaire" to "perfect officer and gentleman".

[NutLoose]

In a way I agree with Secret1, take that Wing Commander at Odi, I bet they will not ignore his drugs taking, unlike Harry's.

[Pontius Navigator]

the higher you ascended, the more close mates, confidantes and drinking buddies from one's peer group slipped off your radar.
.
Otherwise known as gold braid watching.

The SO in a group will detach from his 'mates' when a MSO arrives. Same sadly with wives too where 'exec' wives will push of JO wives.

[Wander00]

Also helps if you stay in a post only long enough to avoid proving you are a "Clarkson adjectival"!

[Yellow Sun]

I once asked a former Gp Capt; RAFG Station Commander; why he had chosen to leave and not pursue what seemed like a very promising career. His reply was quite enlightening:

"Look at the kind of people I would have had to associate with"

YS

[Dick Allen]

And the name changes!

All the Daves who become Davids as they get promoted, Petes who become Peter, Andys become Andrews......

When I reached my "ceiling of competence" ;), a number of people asked me if I'd still be a Dick ................... :rolleyes:

[Big Pistons Forever]

A little known secret, the mandatory operations required before promotion.

-Major to Lieutenant Colonel: Remove heart

-Lieutenant Colonel to Colonel: Remove spine

-Colonel to Brigadier General: Remove brain

[Old-Duffer]

I commend a book called "High Command" by Christopher L Elliott ISBN 9781849044608.

The book examines many aspects of high command and all that goes with it over the last decade or so in the British Forces.

When I joined the RAF they had what I thought was an 'honourable' way of dealing with an officer. It was called the Supplementary List. Basically, officers in this list were guaranteed careers to age 38 but no further and they were (I was) the cannon fodder and bodies over which those on the General List clambered on their way to the top. It was possible to move from supplementary to general and many general list chaps did not progress beyond the rank of squadron leader.

A retired Air Vice Marshal was employed at Cranwell and he reviewed all confidential reports for General List officers and was able to pick out the 'high flyers' and ensure their careers were managed and massaged accordingly. The reporting system was closed and apart from telling an officer when he had scored spectacularly low marks (starred items of 3 or less) one was not told what the reports said.

There were many problems as with all systems requiring personal judgements but it seemed to work. Of course there were some serious 'brown nosers' and i worked with a guy who suffered a bad case of SIP - self image projection, which made him unpopular with his peers but did his advancement no harm.

Old Duffer

[Wander00]

YS - not later selling shirts in Robert Sayle in Cambridge and ultimately a main board director of John Lewis?

[Yellow Sun]

YS - not later selling shirts in Robert Sayle in Cambridge and ultimately a main board director of John Lewis?

No it wasn't him but he was selling a pair of trousers when I saw him. Quite a surprise having spoken to him a couple of months previously in the WOC as I passed through. Although I imagine he could have felt the same way.

It was in fact someone from about a generation later.

YS

[langleybaston]

Air Chief Marshal RAF "Sandy" Wilson, on being knighted, was very very briefly "Sir Sandy" and I seem to remember this is what we were told [at JHQ] his wishes were.

Didn't last long however. Speak as one finds, he was a great boss for me, Sandy or Andrew. I settled for "Sir".

Very soon thereafter, a German PA announcer at a Joint thrash referred to him as "Sir Wilson". Difficult area, these honorifics .............

[jayteeto]

A bit unfair in places, but generally spot on. Gp Capt 'Dick', you kept your sense of reality and don't forget Sir 'Baz'.
A certain Brigadier Rollo raised his head above the parapet to support lowly me when I was potentially in the dwang against the system, he really didn't have to do it.
It does make me laugh when Andy and Kate become Andrew and Catherine........

[Avtur]

Just like a VSO formally known as Ted, now Edward.

[Avtur]

I always wondered why Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr was the first "promotion on merit" hurdle of the Officer cadre, and how many people I have encountered over the years would not have progressed beyond Plt Off or Fg Off. I can certainly think of a few.

[Jimlad1]

The military system of hr manning by one entry point and promotion by selection on reports mot interviews is not one any large company or other public sector authority use any more.

I cant help but feel that if fresh blood could be brought in higher up the food chain, the results would be refreshing.

[Rotate too late]

It's not solely the preserve of VSO's, if you want a real laugh, just observe the transitioning SNCO to LE. some of the accents are fecking brilliant, as well as the Chas becoming Charles!!! Funnily enough we don't see them down Lidl any more either...shame.

[thing]

When I reached my "ceiling of competence" ;), a number of people asked me if I'd still be a Dick .During my RAF career I was know for a long while as 'Oi you.' I wondered if I had the look of a Vietnamese chap for a while. This improved immeasurably on leaving to 'Hello Mr thing, what can we do for you today?' I much prefer this. :)

Edit: I am lightly aquainted with an ex VVSO and his Lady. I had a similar conversation as Al R, with a reponse along the lines of 'Yes, it was a bit cut and thrust at times but at least on retirement you can start being normal again.' Cue immediate response from Lady VVSO 'Oh good, I do look forward to normal, when does it start dear?'

[tartare]

...vvso meaning very very senior officer?
Thank you duffer, I shall read that book.
Best wishes on ANZAC day all by the way.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

My first holding post out of IOT was as ADC to a VSO. He had me "proof-reading" all the ACRs for the One Stars and Group Captains.

Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting!!

[Old-Duffer]

AVM Sid Hughes became Air Marshal Sir Rochford Hughes but then two VVSOs went the other way in the formality stakes.

I worked with a chap called Winterson-Bloomer who on promotion to Wg Cdr became Winterson. Another colleague, an ATC officer, double barrelled his name to satisfy the terms of his inheritance, whilst somebody else changed their name because the kids were getting bullied but took on a 'handle' which sounded even worse!

Ah well!

O-D

[Evalu8ter]

Jimlad,
My goodness, if we interviewed for posts then it would make it harder for VSOs to advance "their people" - we'd actually have SQEPs in jobs instead of cronies. That would never do!!

Talent management is all about filling out the pyramid at the top, and very little about managing and retaining skilled people.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jimlad, perhaps 15 years ago PMA, HR if you like, asked for ideas.

Based on the difficulty manning some posts I proposed advertising posts and inviting suitably qualified applicants to apply. Rank was not necessarily a criterion. For instance a col could apply for a sgt post and appointed on merit. They could award acting paid if necessary.

The difference from the present system was you got a volunteer rather than "your promotio is conditional on your accepting a sh1t posting.

It was shot out of hand.

NIH and smacked of work.

[Melchett01]

Jimlad,

I broadly agree with your thinking, but remember we do already have multiple entry points but only at the start of your career - airman, SNCO and officer. I'm not saying we shouldn't be able to come in at various other points on the scale, I presume in a similar fashion the the CS with competency based recruiting. But you would have the thorny problem of bringing in people from the outside who hadn't slogged their way through the Commissioning course and therefore in the eyes of many, wouldn't have much in the way of credibility; remember the Commission confers certain rights and responsibilities, including in extremis the power of life and death when you are ordering people to launch on ops. That is very different from being an exec in commerce or industry.

The Police's Superintendent entry programme would probably be worth watching to see how that plays out as the nearest thing to what you are suggesting. But the notion of a meritocratic and fully open career management system would be nice, rather than individuals being 'mentored' - read into that deliberate wording what you will.

But as a former CAS said when addressing our ICSC, sqn ldr is the rank you have to survive. You have one foot in the Execs' corridor and one in the crew room and you somehow have to deal with that schizophrenic existence, proving to your seniors you have potential whilst proving to your colleagues and subordinates that you haven't become a complete muppet. If you can get through that rank, allegedly you stand a fighting chance.

[Wander00]

Back in 1980 as a re-entrant in my mid 30s, I was on my Secretarial course the Towers when the whole course was shunted to the Taj Mahal (Stn Educ Centre) for an as yet undeclared purpose. Seems someone had suggested ascertaining the psychological make-up of those who had been selected previously, and making that the selection "model". The guarantee was that there would be no looking at ACRs to see how performance later match selection prediction. It was explained we would take a profiling "test" and then that would be used to construct the model. Having been involved, outside the Service in some similar work, I questioned the use of just one test (16PF as I recall), and suggested that a battery of tests, probably 3 or 4, would be required to construct a usable model, and that for it to work at all there needed to e a comparison or performance against prediction. My comments were dismissed as "ridiculous" and the test went ahead. I wrote a memo to the Head of the Sec Training School, was interviewed on my comments, and the whole idea subsequently disappeared in a puff of smoke. Pity, because done properly it had promise.

[etimegev]

As a junior officer you start to make your mark by proving ability - not only in primary duties but also all those other aspects of Service life. Once promoted to Sqn Ldr (or equivalent) then your career will be " managed" and postings will be "arranged" both as a confirmatory test and as a means of broadening expertise needed for VSO rank. It definitely starts to get political at sqn ldr and gets more so as one ascends the greasy pole.

I managed to get off the pole by PVRing to emigrate having been put on the selection board for the next one up! Spoilt their career roadmap totally!

PS As one of the last ones to take the 'C' exam I always thought it was a mistake to get rid of it - served as a useful filter.

[Haraka]

I was appointed as a Flight Lieutenant four times between 1973 and 1987

Is this a record?

Yes, I took the hint :) and never looked back.

[Hangarshuffle]

As a naval grunt I had much more time for the people who really led from the front or had walked the walk (sounds a terrible cliché that I know, but on experience that's the kind of person I preferred to work under). But they needed a modicum of decency, somehow.


"Thrusters" and especially "young thrusters" I think we tried to avoid as I recall.
I would have much preferred to work for a with a man who was comfortable at his level of ability, and wasn't constantly shafting his own people and using them as stepping stones to get ahead. Because generally this was more pleasant and also safer even. That's no good to the people who want results of course. They need bastards in charge.


In the present corporate industrial challenging world I now inhabit, we have all been recruited and placed at the level we are trained, experienced and competent at - there is no promotion unless I suppose you resign and seek a more challenging role/job/more money elsewhere. Its a hieratical pyramid no doubt here and a good one mostly.
Performing in ones job well, not screwing up getting someone hurt or injured, or damaging equipment and costing the company money in replacement or repair or a penalty clause cost is everything here. Promotion seekers have to leave and seek employment elsewhere, the career structure just isn't there.
Outside agencies, client customers, HQ office types come in and rip us to pieces, or try to - if we flag or slacken, its as bad as that.


So generally loyalty amongst us is absolutely everything in this current pyramid I find myself within -I'm finding it as tougher and challenging as the military in a sort of day to day role in some ways. A ruthless sort of attention/promotion seeker wouldn't be really welcome among us and would affect the team I fear.


Thing is of course, the military needs these ruthless types doesn't it? Need them to win the battles. If you are a politician and you want a military leader (and a victory), do you want a Zhukov or do you want a Gort?