The Latest on Korean Air

[Didacts and Narpets]

I know I know stupid question. Sometimes though things can change. Comparing the region it does not seem Korean is all that bad? They are still advertising and I wanted to ask if there are any more recent developments?

Can you in fact use a freighter port as a commuting station? Can you ride on the freighter anytime?
Do you still travel in bizzo/first?
First class/bizzo class ID90s on other carriers?
Are your days off at home or do the days off include your travel time?
Can you have a glass of wine when you are traveling on Korean to/fr work?
Can you change your travel port anytime?
And anything else you can think of. Thanks.:ok:

[StinkyMonkey]

There is no hard rule on this, but they tend to say no on the freighter due to a reduction of available seats, now only 4... You will not get a nominated freighter base.

Business travel to/from home. First does happen, but rarely.

11 days off, 3 travel days (max)

No alcohol, you are on the GD.

You can change your travel port, no problem.

Also, don't go!

[reptile]

"Don't go?"

Please drop me a PM. I'm busy with the selection process - would really like to find out more, before it's too late.

[flyro]

Dear gents,
Could anyone provide me some heads up on the A330 captains rosters examples with Korean air ? I am currently working for ek but thinking about applying to Korean to go back home ( São Paulo), any additional information will be highly appreciated.

Thanks regards.

[alatriste]

Flyro,

Nowadays A330 schedule is the busiest one. Basically no days off within duty flights.
Of course, up to 11 days off in a row every single month.
This is my August roster:

1-10 off at my base.
11th DH to ICN arriving 12th late afternoon.
13th to TLV, 48 hrs layover. Back to ICN arriving 16th late afternoon.
17,18,19 ground school and SIM PT/PC
20th to SYD. 48hrs layover. Back to ICN arriving 23th late afternoon.
24th to NRT- HNL. 24 hrs layover. Back to NRT arriving 26th afternoon.
27th DH to ICN
28th round trip to XIY
29th to DAD, 24 hrs layover back to ICN arriving 31st very early in the morning.

Total 78 hrs PLUS DH home. 50-60 % night flight. Long flights 3 pilots.

Nowadays flying to GRU by LAX total of 11 days trip not popular for Koreans. Chances to be scheduled.

[flyro]

Thank you very much for the heads up happy landings! Cheers.

[airplanedriver]

I have been interested in applying for awhile but been put off by some who have mentioned the very hostile environment for expats and the rigorous training etc. has this changed in anyway? Whats the interview process like? I am looking at the A330 NTR opening that i get an email almost every week from some agency!! Would appreciate any info re this. Thanks

[DescendNow]

I cannot speak much of KoreanAir as I know all carriers in Korea have their quirks but having worked in korea for 7 years now, I still love it.

A little effort with the locals is richly rewarded but you need to make the effort first.

That said I am looking for info such as realistic schedules and net income for the A330 please.

[oceancrosser69]

Send me a PM, I can give you some info; been with KAL on the 777 for 5+ years

[scandicstar]

Guys
Any info for the B738 fleets regarding operating patterns and nightstops.
What are the destinations flown by B738. How often starting from Gimpo

Many thanks for your input:}

[Maybsav8]

I'm curious... Does the 330 do the LAX-GRU flying now?
In the past it was always the 777.

[Poster]

Has KAL got better or worse? You can judge for yourself. This information comes from very reliable sources I still keep in touch with.

KAL is still an attractive place for Expat pilots because of the commuting.

The company needs Expats badly but will not accept it, they are in total denial still trying to attract pilots with half true promises instead of paying experienced pilots what they are worth.

The local pilots dislike the expat pilots and have total unsupervised control of the line training and checking.

Mostly everything in their country is done so it "looks good" in paper and at the end it comes back to bite them in the rear

The Expat Pilot group has been in the 400 mark for the last 10 years or more after hiring an average of 12 pilots per month. They loose as many pilots as they hire.

The simulator screening is done by a very inexperienced and malicious group of local pilots, if your procedures are not similar to KAL's then you are not good (for them there is nothing beyond KAL) not long ago a group of wannabes were failed because "they entered a prohibited area" while purposely being radar vectored to it.

Training for TR Pilots is 4+ and for NTR 5+ months minimum without going home at all and on reduced pay (70%).

Pilots are still being sent home at the end of training (if they are not terminated before) when they don't pass the final check with Korean CAA, the trainee goes on the final flight with a local check pilot that is scare ****e of the Inspector and won't do anything for him during the flight because he thinks it will look like he is helping the trainee. Yeah CRM, What's that? Oh yes, something that "looks nice" in the manuals. Recently a very experienced ex KLM pilot got the boot after 5 months in training and not passing the line check.

Making it through training is not based on performance only, if they don't like how you stand up or walk, you are done. Many very experienced pilots have been sent home for very unfair reasons. A really waste of talent.

Once on the line all recurrent training, scheduled and unscheduled checks are spread through the year to keep you under pressure. The latest Korean CAA thing is to audit sim recurrent checks and request to include bizarre manoeuvers in the profile. You can imagine the results, more failures including local pilots.

Flight hours are factored and credited depending on the number of Pilots in the crew, 2/3 for 3 pilots and 1/2 for 4 pilots. Local pilots get 100% credit even if deadheading. You will be scheduled to max hours and not get any overtime.

What they advertise as contract conditions are not all true and some are half true. Here is the fine print.

5 year contract renewable until 65 for Captains,

The renewal notice is sent to you by the agency 2 months before of the end of the contract, there is no assurance that your contract will be renewed until then. There might be a report from an FO or anybody that just didn't like you for any reason. The reporting system is not transparent and they will never give you any details. Can you get a job in 2 months?

Starting recently the renewal after 60 is done selectively and on a one year contract until 65 at a reduced salary. KAL is not the place for anybody that plans to work past 60 and with the pay they offer, well you do you the math.

First class Hotels, in Seoul yes it is a nice Hotel.
Overseas, haha good one!

Generous travel benefits for employees and their family members, what they mean is travel ticket authorisations because there is no assurance you will travel. The tickets are suppose to be confirmed Y sublo C, not true you and your family can be bumped at any time. It happens a lot.

Days off, yeah the 9 plus 2 is what you can take. You can save the extra 2 days and take them later up to a max of 16 days in a row with no back to back. Normally it works fine and you get the days you want because of the factoring you can't be scheduled any more.

Upgrades for FOs, it will never happen. I can't believe they even showed this card. They are getting desperate.

Somebody mentioned in this forum that they have opened the DEC hiring for the A380, why would you like to risk to be unemployed with that type rating if you don't make it through the training and for the money they are offering.

The internal A380 transition course offered was massively rejected by their own expats because of the appalling conditions. The flight time factoring will have you working for half the credit as most of the flights are double crewed.

KAL has become a training facility for NTR pilots that get there and pay their dues to get the experience needed to move on. The sooner KAL accept this reality the sooner they will stop wasting money training people that will leave as soon as they can and failing experienced pilots for stupid reasons.

From a previous post in this thread

"The ME3 pay is lagging, Korean seems to run a lot of people through their company, Turkish and Ethiopian are hungry for pilots also, but don't pay well.

Something has to give. What and when are the million Euro questions, but I would not take a pay cut to take a Korean job.

I believe the companies who rely on expat pilots are going to forced to pay more very soon"

This assestment is bang on the money in my opinion. Hang on where you are, the current situation of these companies paying low salaries and poaching pilots among each other can not be sustainable for very long.

Do you feel like testing your luck and giving KAL a go? Your call.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Not doubting a word you say… but the EK guys who are looking seriously at this… are looking at that mouth-watering 11 days off in a row EACH MONTH!!!

That one thing alone, is worth it's weight in gold to EK Pilots working for Slave Ship Airlines.

K

[expat400]

"mouth-watering 11 days off in a row"

The price for that is 18-20 days in a row away from your family each month and no leave. Maybe good for some but not for me.

[Zuperpilot]

Hello Guys
i will try to give my personal point of view about the commuting contract in kal and sticking as much possible as i can with fact and not else.
well as everybody knows being expat around the world necesseraly means family to relocate with you .
most of the time places where we go are not exactly ideal but ....is what it is ..
so here we are with COMMUTING option best benefit :
relocate family at home ! and this has no price !!
initially will be great but then depends how you and your family miss each other during the away family period .
its strictly personal and like expat 400 said its not for everybody.
but ...after 4 years of commuting with kal i can advise you on how mitigate the AWAY factor :
1) the 11 days off plus 3 travel is not necessarely 1 block ...
you can split for example in 2 blocks ...7 + 7
now the only problem is because u have only 2 confirmed seat per month . u will use on the 2 way back so no problem with company and use zed going home ....most of people that leave not far then 6 hours flight is doing that...u can do it even if u live in usa or europe but because tiring uin this case u will use only to REALIGN your off days period ( i will explain later)
so splitting in two blocks give u the possibility to reduce period away from home between blocks ( only 8 days working days )
2) because i live europe doing this for me is too tiring so to reduce my AWAY block i operate as follow :i work not more then 13/14 days between days off blocks so i do not stay away from family more than 2 weeks ..
now the only fact is that every 3/ 4 months ( because i work on a 28 days cycle ) i have to REALIGN my blocks using the 7+7 option .
but it works and family is happy
3 ) now kal allow us to depart same day we finish duty so we gained 1 more days off because they consider the next day as travelling day ( so we gained 12 days on annual base )
sometimes is tiring doing this sometimes not ...it depends at what time you land ending duty but no matter what kal provide u hotel even for 3 hours waiting your flight (ex land from dps at 730 am departing to madrid same day at 1240 ..htl in icn 4hours use no problem)
5) by contract we should not request more days off we are entitled but ...but if u do no problem ..at the end of the year they do ballance and if u have a negative one ( days to return to them ) u have option to pay to zero your balance ( cpt around 350$ fo 250$ ),normally i take 10 days more every year on top of the scheduled one and pay off at the end of the year

so to make the story short i created a 50/50 commuting contract and worked for 4 years (ex 12 days off + 3 travel = 15 days block actual days on my barbeque 13.8 days ....and 14 days work days block )

now hope this can help u make your math ...now does not work for everybody but yes work 4 me
"happy wife happy life "
my 2 cents

[StinkyMonkey]

Poser is pretty much right on target!

For people considering joining, read and re-read his post.

Just to be clear, I do work for KAL. There are some positive points, but you need to make sure you can accept the negative ones before you join.

I would not ever under any circumstances unless desperate to stay current, for an FO to join. For Captains...If you need the commute...

SM

[Falck]

Hi,

Saw on jobs in flightgl0bal.
KAL A380 DEC and F/O's

Commuting Agency contracts. More info to follow.

[italian stallion]

Hi SM
May I ask what fleet you're on, if B738 any possibility of forwarding me a month or worth of rosters>
would appreciate any help.
Thanks
IS

[Jeckel]

Hi guys, thanks for the useful info.
I second IS with his question. Any chap here on 738 could share or post a sample of the roster?
Any advice / feedback on the 73 fleet for DEC? Risworth? CCL?
Thanks!

[Uplink]

Hi,

I am looking at the KAL contract and have a few questions of anyone is able to answer.

I have read the posts above. It's nice to see an unbiased honest view. The one question I have is reference the days off. I see they talk about having 9 days off in a row with a max of 16. Are you able to end a month with days off and stat the next month with days off, thereby giving 16 in a row?

I would probably join on the 777 but could also do 380. I think the 777 would be a wiser idea in the long term. Is the route structure workable for a commuter from Europe?

The training I hear can be hit or miss? Some of the posts go back to 2011. Is this still the case?

I have read that some take several blocks of work in the month separated by days off. Is this workable? Or Is it better in a commuting roster to take the whole block.

Do they work you to your max?

How often on the return sector to Europe do you have to sit in Econ? Are there any destinations in Europe that are better to travel out of/to?

As KAL is recruitment is run through agencies, how are TAS to deal with?

On the 777 what s the ratio of freighter flights to pax flights. Do you do many turnarounds?

How easy is it to get the family on a flight to join you down route?

Would appreciate any info for the above.


Rgds

[oceancrosser69]

HI Uplink!
1. You can not choose what aircraft you are going to, ist all about current recency and experience.
2. Yes 9 days OFF in a row, plus vacation days. Back to back is possible but Need approval and they provide it as far as I know (never did it so far)
3. Training, yes is a mess but once ist over the Job is ok.
4. You can split your days OFF, but they will provide only 1travel/month to your home. So on you will have to use your own ticket during other blocks of OFF days. Also the 3 travel days are given only 1/month.
5. expect around 75 hrs average /month; usually 3 Long flights and 1 short flight as an average (talking about 777)
6. Sit in economy: NEVER!!! Ists Business as per contract, if Business is full ist gonna be first calss
7.no matter what Destination you are commuting, ist all the same
8. All done through agencies, I am with CCL, all fine
9.on the 777 we have round 38PAX and 5 Freighters.
10. turmarounds; yes maybe 1 every 2 month as an average
11. Family tickets: 4 confirmed/per year/each Family member (no age Limit for children) plus ZED Tickets (NO jumpseat possible on KAL).
Hope that helps
Cheers

[fatbus]

69, great post.
There is a large number in the ME that are looking elsewhere.
Couple of questions.

How offen do you go above 75 hrs ie overtime?
Bunk time/ Augment time count towards the 75 ?

Thanks

[DesiPilot]

Fatbus,

In 4 years I have been here I did overtime twice. Chances of you doing overtime are slim to none and main reason for it is factoring system that KAL uses. In every flight you are either P1 or P2, you will alternate as a P1 or P2 for multiple sectors. For example if you are P1 for ICN ORD, you will be P2 ORD ICN. For P1 sectors you will get 100% pay, for P2 you will get either 50% (for two sets) or 2/3 (for three pilots)

Since you are on the fatbus, right now you have very limited destinations, ATL JFK, LAX, AND CDG. However, there are rumors that 380 will be flying to SYD and BKK soon.

UPLINK,

You will never travel Econ always C or if not available J. The family tickets are Y (they call it X) class subject to load on C class. Again in 4 years my family has always traveled in C but once when C was sold out. If you are joining as First Officer than your family tickets are not upgradable to business, only economy class passes.

As Ocean said in theory it is possible to take back to back days off. You need prior approval for that and the management gives approval only for emergency reasons. So you cannot count on getting it every other month. Having said that you choose your days off and company will build schedule around it. In 4 years I have not missed a single birthday, thanksgiving, Christmas, or any other occasion that requires me to be at home.

Any other questions drop me a pm.

[tom744]

Desipilot,

just a brief explanation of the factoring pay;
how you state it is not correct.
P1 or P2 does not matter, but bunk time is considered DH time (totaly stupid I know) and therefore counts only half towards your paytime.
In fact that means on double crew sectors your paytime is 75% of flight time and on 3 pilot sectors paytime is 83.3%.

Hope it helps,

Tom

[WookieError]

Hi KAL Pilots,

I'm looking at applying for KAL and doing a self-funded CCQ from A320 to A330. I have spent the last three years as a PIC on the A320.

Can anyone give me an accurate indication of training time for an A330 DEC turning up with a fresh CCQ (sufficient PIC hours on A320) to check to line?

Is it possible to get home at all during the training period?

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers

Wookie

[phantoms7]

Hi WookieError,

Could you tell please, what training organization you've chosen, how much did they ask for a type rating, and what is in the package?

Thanks in advance.

[Poster]

Read the previous posts and don't waste other people's time...

Looosers!

:ugh:

[atpcliff]

What is the pay for DEC 747 captain?

Thanx!

[oceancrosser69]

Check on the Homepages of the agencies (i.e. CCL, Rishworth; GAP.....) , there you will find all relevant Infos.

[galdian]

Not quite true - a minority of agencies do have T&C's on the website, the majority do not....they want/prefer you to join their "database" before they give the info.

If you do find an agency with info the T&C's will be very similar for all - there may be some variable add ons with different agencies (LoL insurance, maybe training time Vs pay etc) but the basic T&C's should be pretty much same same.

There will be other agencies - and not recommending anyone - but both Longreach and CREW have T&C's on their webs that involves China, Korea and Japan.

Cheers all. :ok:

[sewerpiper]

What are the layover destinations and lengths for the 330? All good hotels?

Thanks!

[Kar Seng]

Layover stations:
HNL, LAX, GRU, GUM, TAS, JED, ULN, BKK, CNX, HKT, SIN, CEB, DPS, CGK, DAD, HAN, SGN, NAN, MLE, BOM, SVO, LED, BNE

Depending on season:
ZRH, MAD, PRG, TLV, SYD etc.

Night stops:
NRT, KIX, NGO, PUD etc.

Most places of less than 7 hours flight time (read: south-east Asia) will be 24 hours layover since we have daily flights, however many A330 destinations only have 3 flights a week which means you'll have either 48 or 72 hours there. Examples are MLE, NAN, LAX, GRU, BOM, JED, TAS, SIN, CGK, CNX, ZRH, MAD etc.

I would say that roughly 30% of the hotels are good/above expectations, 60% are average/acceptable and 10% are below average, but this depends on personal preference of course.

Overall the A330 is a good fleet to be in due to the good mixture of short/medium/long flights, and the good chances of getting long stays.

[dakkie62]

Hi Guys,

I am currently a FO in Europa on the fear culture airline. I am thinking about joining KAL mostly because of the Commuting contract.

Can anyone tell me how the cockpit culture is if you are an FO?
And how many overnights you have during a period of working?

Any general info message would be appreciated of course!

Thank you in advance

[subin30]

If a foreign pilot chooses to move to Seoul with legal visa, would you still get the 3 travel days?

Or if one choses to not commute home certain months and opts to stay in Seoul. Would they lose travel days?

Similar question I guess just wondering if the travel days are guaranteed even if you chose not to travel.

Thank you

[ekolbregit]

If you don't use them, you don't get them.