Questions on logging hours acquired while in the US military

[CameronW]

Hi everyone,

I read this thread by admin (click here) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52501), and I do hope this is the most appropriate forum for these questions. If not, I apologize and humbly request it be moved appropriate forum. :)

I'm a new aircraft commander on the B-52, USAF. As such, most of my time to date was logged from the right (copilot) seat. The military logs time a little differently than civilians do, and I'm not sure how best to convert that time to a format that will be the most appropriate when I get out and go to apply for the airlines.

So far, here is the type of time I've logged, according to the military:
1. "Primary"- which means I was physically manipulating the controls
2. "Secondary"- which means I was in the copilot seat, performing copilot duties (radios, fuel management, etc), but not actually flying the jet
3. "Other"- which means that I was flying as a primary crew member, but out of the seat while another copilot sat in the seat for training (ie "jump seat" time)
4. "Primary instrument"- which means I was physically flying the jet through IMC
5. "Total"- combination of 1,2, and 3 above

I've realized that civilians log hours differently- PIC, SIC, etc. Does anyone have any insight on how best to record the above types of flight time for a future career in the civilian market?

TIA,

[PanicButton]

I would think that the primary and secondary, 1 and 2 should be logged together as second in command as civilians log only PIC or SEC. Primary instrument would be same as actual instrument. I'm not sure about the jump seat, haven't logged anything like it yet. I also have a column in my logbook called UNDER IFR which I use to log when I'm simply on an IFR flight plan. I would suggest keeping your logbook as detailed as you can. I use Microsoft Excel to keep track of the hours alongside my physical logbook. From Excel I can get all sorts of details like up to date info. on cross country PIC, tailwheel time, glider time, how many times I've been to some airport, how many hours on type, how many hours on reg, etc. With Excel you could have a logbook sheet where you log the hours like you do in your logbook. Then you could have a military sheet and a civilian sheet where each sheet compiles the hours according to military or civilian rules.

Hope this helps

PanicButton

[Lucifer]

Some people on 'military aircrew' may be able to help you if they have been on an exchange to USAF from UK or Australia, however the only people I know of who follow the same system and would have had to convert it are the Dutch P3 guys, though I am not in contact with any.

[scroggs]

Cameron,

I'm afraid there aren't going to be many people here on Wannabes who could even begin to answer your question. It needs someone familiar with both the US military and civilian systems to give you an intelligent answer. For that reason, i'm going to move the topic to the North American regional forum - it may not be the best place, so you might want to copy your question to either the 'Questions' or 'Military Aircrew' forums.

This used to be a common query for UK mil pilots about to go civilian, but the answer for them won't work for you! I hope you get what you're looking for.

[CameronW]

Thanks!

Any others with insight/experience in converting military time to civilian?

[TR4A]

http://www.jet-jobs.com/guestframe.html

Clearing The Air On Logging PIC Time

by Bob Black
AIR, Inc. Military Correspondent

Reprinted from the Airline Pilot Job Monthly Newsletter

AIR, Inc. counselors handle dozens of calls each week from military pilots confused about transferring military flight time to airline job applications. Due to the increased number of questions we receive about flight time and in particular the logging of Pilot-in-Command (PIC) time, we felt it was time to devote an article to this issue. What we came up with will negate some of the old ideas in logging flight time which we have suggested throughout our publications. We are now recommending that you use this article as the new guideline for documenting flight time for the purpose of your resumes and employment applications.

Some of the common questions which are being asked include: Exactly when is a military pilot allowed to log PIC time? Will the airlines give pilots full credit for the PIC time they log? What about instructor time?

We'd all like to maximize the pilot-in-command time we record in our log books and take to our interviews, but when we try to define PIC time, we run into the source of all this confusion: both the definition and intent of PIC time differ between the FAA, military, and the airlines. Let's take a look at the differences. Unfortunately, the airlines generally adhere to the strictest interpretation of the logging of actual PIC time. We'll start with the FAA.

FAR Part 61:51 deals with pilot logbooks and cites the instances in which pilots can log pilot-in-command flight time. These are:

only that flight time during which [the] pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, OR

when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, OR

when acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required (by type certification or flight regulations).

Additionally, airline transport pilots and certificated instructor pilots may log as pilot-in-command time that flight time during which they act as a pilot-in-command or instructor, respectively.

Note the FAA's intent in defining pilot-in-command time, and in requiring pilots to record PIC in their logbooks, is to allow pilots to document aeronautical training and experience used to obtain specific certificates or ratings. For instance, airmen need 100 hours of pilot-in-command time to obtain a Commercial certificate, and 250 hours PIC for the Airline Transport Pilot certificate. Such flight time must be logged and presented as evidence in qualifying for these certificates. The FAA never set our to establish or document airline hiring criteria.

Remember the five specific instances in which FAR Part 61:51 allows pilots to log PIC time: as sole manipulator of the controls, as sole aircraft occupant, when acting as pilot-in-command of a mandated multi-pilot aircraft, as an ATP acting as pilot-in-command, or as an instructor when giving instruction. This section of the FAR's seems to allow for the possibility that two pilots in the same aircraft can be logging PIC time simultaneously. Example: a commuter captain (the designated PIC) monitoring the radios while his copilot flies the airplane (sole manipulator of the controls).

Many military pilots have used this situation to record PIC time while flying as a copilot. In fact, it's quite common to find copilots logging half or more of their flight time as PIC, and FAR Part 61:51 allows it! Let's take a look now at how the military addresses the question of PIC time.


The Air Force, Navy and Marines divide flight time into these categories:


Primary (USAF) or First Pilot (USN, USMC) time, which designates hands-on flight time during which the pilot is actively controlling the aircraft. This matches the FAA's "sole manipulator" definition of PIC.

Secondary (USAF) or Copilot (USN, USMC) time, during which the pilot is assisting the other pilot actually flying the aircraft. The FAA calls this second-in-command time.

Neither of these categories applies to crew specialty rank, or designation as pilot-in-command. In other words, a C-141 aircraft commander logs Primary time when he is flying the airplane, and Secondary time when his copilot flies. In actual practice, most military pilots in large multi-pilot aircraft split Primary and Secondary (or First Pilot and Copilot) flight time evenly between the two crew members, regardless of who actually did the flying.

(Army aviators: your military flight time designators, such as PI, PC, IE, MP, etc. are much more crew-specialty specific. Be sure your personal logbook reflects hands-on-flight time, and not just your crew position.)

Keeping in mind the FAA's "sole manipulator" definition of PIC, military pilots are justified in logging Primary or First Pilot time as PIC, even before they've upgraded to aircraft commander status. Using the FAA's "pilot-in-command" definition, designated aircraft commanders are also justified in logging both Primary and Secondary time as PIC. Finally, FAR Part 61:51 allows designated military instructor pilots to log all instruction time as PIC, even if they don't sit at the controls.

The good news here is the FAA seems to be letting an awful lot of PIC time build up in the logbooks of our nation's military pilots. Almost everybody gets to log some time as PIC -- copilots, first pilots aircraft commanders, instructors, etc. The bad news is, the airlines aren't buying it. Let us explain.

In most cases, when the airlines talk about PIC flight time, what they really mean is captain flight time, the kind you get when you sit in the left seat, sign for the aircraft, make all the final decisions and wear four bars on your shoulder. In FAA parlance this is "designated pilot-in-command" time, and the military calls it "aircraft commander" time. This definition of PIC refers to who you are in the cockpit, not what you're doing with the controls.

Some airline applications are very clear about this when asking you to list your PIC and SIC hours. Look at UPS' and TWA's application and you'll see they define PIC as quoted from FAR 61:51.

United Airlines' application states: "PIC means you were totally responsible for aircraft and crew." Alaska's States "PIC means designated 'In Command' in flight". America West's flight time grid has separate headings for Captain and First Officer with the added instruction that Captain time is when you were assigned and designated PIC by the operator or owner of the airplane. American Airline's headings are Aircraft Commander, Captain or PIC, and Copilot. Clearly, these airlines are not using the "sole manipulator" criteria from FAR Part 61 to define PIC time.

Other airline applications are more ambiguous. FedEx and Northwest simply ask for PIC and SIC. Southwest Airlines uses familiar Navy terms: "1st Pilot" and "Copilot." With so many definitions and usages floating around, it's hardly surprising that so many pilots are confused when trying to reconcile their military flight records, pilot logbooks, and airline job applications. If they're concerned about discrepancies, they should be; no pilot wants to get in the hot seat at an interview while trying to explain why his flying hours don't seem to add up. Perhaps in the future the interested parties -- the FAA, the military services and the airlines -- can agree on common terms and definitions for logging flight time and experience. In the meantime, here are some suggestions.

Keep a master pilot logbook that reflects the FAA's allowed usage's of pilot-in-command flight time. Enter your flight time in the appropriate PIC, SIC, or Other columns as determined by your military branch's designations of Primary, Secondary, First Pilot, Copilot, Instructor, etc. In addition, annotate in the remarks column your status as designated aircraft commander, copilot, first pilot, etc., for that flight.


Evaluate the allowed PIC or SIC criteria as defined on the application of the individual airline you're applying to. Again, most airlines intend for you to log PIC time for only those flights on which you were the designated pilot-in-command, regardless of who actually flew the airplane. AIR, Inc. members can contact our counselors or the airline recruiting office if you have questions regarding a specific airline.


List your PIC and SIC time on the application based on the airline's definition of these terms. This may result in different totals for different airlines, or differences between a given application, your military fight records, and your pilot logbook. If questioned about these differences during an interview, simply indicate you followed guidance in FAR Part 61:51 for logging flight time, but used the airline's own criteria for completing the application. It should be noted, however, that you could drive yourself crazy trying to conform to each and every airlines' different way of doing things. You don't have much choice for the employment application, but for your resumes we suggest that you prepare only one resume using the most conservative criteria for listing flight times.


(Pay particular attention to Instructor categories. This is another area where the FAR's allow more than one pilot to log PIC time simultaneously, but the airlines may ask you to separate your instructor flight time from the rest of your PIC time. If so, subtract your instructor hours from PIC time, but don't panic! You're getting credit for all of it. Double-check your flight time totals. If your category totals add up to more than you really have, you've made a mistake somewhere.)

[CameronW]

TR4A, THANK YOU!

I've been pulling my hair out all week over this issue. I've asked quite a few airline pilots that I know personally, and everyone gave me a different answer. I looked in the FAR's, and they gave me an answer that differed from what the airline pilots told me.

It never occurred to me that each airline would have its own unique criteria on how they count hours. This article really seems to have the best solution.

Thanks!!
Cameron

[CameronW]

Man, this thread is getting moved all over the place! :confused:

[KC-10 Driver]

Cameron,

The most conservative formula to use is: all your copilot time (Pri & Sec, but not Other) is considered SIC time. All your time as AC (Pri & Sec, but not Other) will be PIC.

Occasionally, perhaps you will fly with an IP or another AC. If you fly with an IP, your time will most likely be considered SIC (but use common sense -- perhaps you can legitimately justify PIC in certain cases). If you fly with another AC, you have to decide who is the actual PIC and log time appropriately.

All of that being said, many airlines interpret the FAR's slightly differently. You will not find a single formula that will fit every single airline application. You might have to do some tweaking a bit.

The most important thing to remember is that you have to be able to justify your hours using a rational formula in an interview, and you cannot appear to be padding your log book.

My background is as a 9-year active duty pilot, followed by 4 years in the reserves. I have also succesfully applied/interviewed at 2 major airlines (furloughed by one recently, and more recently hired by another).

Email me if you would like more info. But, when you get closer to interviewing you will get an overload of gouge on how to calculate hours.

Also, unless you do a lot of civilian flying apart from the military, the flight time question will be almost a non-issue with the airlines. The airlines love military flight records because they are standard and easy to read & verify.

In both of my interviews, the total time spent looking at my logbooks was about 2 minutes. I get similar feedback from other military interviewees.

Good luck.

[CameronW]

Thanks KC-10 Driver.

Your method is actually the one I've been leaning towards. I recently spoke with senior guy with American who told me the same thing you just did.