Cuts!! Comprehensive Spending Review

[Si Clik]

Yes, its coming, and you thought SDR was the last big one!

Rumour control has it that cold war monoliths are on the way out.

Whose for the chop? Anybody with kit that is inflexible, single role and downright north atlantic/north german plain:

Main Battle Tanks
Self Propelled guns
Nimrods - any
The Military SAR force
1/2 the Typhoon Sqns
All the Jaguars
Lots of RAF sqns
At least 2 airbases
The paras (as parachutists - last used 1956)

Comments pse?

:eek:

[timzsta]

How about the whole RAF - their planes can only be used in the sky. The whole of the RN, ships can only move on water. And the whole of the Army - soldiers cant fly.

[Lucifer]

Why don't they just sort out the bloody MoD and QinetiQ once and for all - get rid of stupid timewasting whereby people have to prepare detailed bids for work which only they could possibly be awarded, for amounts that are overinflated and unecessary, and charging expenses for which normal military servicemen are not entitled.

If you think the waste within the MoD is large, you'd be shocked at the reality. Then we could probably buy ourselves all the best, modern kit for the tasks which Tony, Gordon and Geoff want us to do so that they can lick George's bum.

Rant over.

[Sloppy Link]

Is a mangement/workforce buyout an option? We could then become PLC and tout for business (a bit like now with the difference that we could get some real return for our efforts). Cynicm over.

[force_ale]

It's already happened! (Serco shares @ 237.5).

[Jackonicko]

Lucifer,

Internal MoD/DERA solutions have often been better/quicker/cheaper than those provided by Industry............

If you really want to save money then don't give BAE the GR4 upgrade, the Jag re-engining etc. All too late now, but for similar future programmes ......

[solotk]

We could then become PLC and tout for business

Sloppy, I thought we were already, or is that Sierra Leone thingy just a nasty rumour?

:D

[teeteringhead]

But if we were a plc, I suspect we'd have had the receivers in a few years ago ........

[steamchicken]

PS: a CSR covers all government spending (not just defence) and takes place every 3 years to set the framework budgets for that period. Labour introduced 'em in 1997 to replace the old system of annual spending rounds and have more continuity in planning. Basically all the departments come along to the Treasury and lick Gordon's boots.

[Lucifer]

Jacko - when I hear first hand from a mate how he spent a month preparing for a bid at £100,000 more than he required, for which only he was bidding, and only he was specialised to carry out, and encouraged to bid for the full amount even though he knew he didn't need it, wasted a month preparing the bid, is encouraged to expense for everthing possible, and admits that far greater waste than this singular example exists, then I get really, really, annoyed. Are you telling me that this is not waste, or are you saying that UK industry is quite simply cr@p?

[lightningmate]

Jackonicko

DERA is no more, QQ is a privatised organisation (industry?) and their 'airworthiness authority' has been reduced. Regardless, even in the 'good old days' of the RAE & A&AEE significant mods to aircraft had to include input from the aircraft design authority. I doubt BAES etc would happily help QQ, another private company, 'steal' the crusts from their own mouths.

lm

[Jackonicko]

Lucifer and Lightning Mate,

The concept of Design Authority is complex and controversial. The need for the DA or OEM to be involved in even quite major modifications is dubious. Look, for example at the Jag and Sea King AEW upgrades, both of which were better/quicker/cheaper by being done by a Service/DERA/Industry teaming rather than by the OEM/DA.

It is NOT smart procurement to give all work to the OEM regardless of cost, making that company a de facto monopoly.

[lightningmate]

Jackonicko

I repeat, DERA is no more! QQ is a different beast and is regarded, by such as BAES, as a commercial rival. QQ's freedom to 'write' airworthiness approvals has been reduced, their need to refer to the aircraft/equipment DA is, therefore, becoming more necessary.

I agree some achievements in the recent past were laudable, but 'they' have chosen to change the situation yet again and I doubt the environment exists to repeat such exercises effectively.

Vital UK aviation support capabilities commenced an exponential decline following changes made in 1994 that removed various true 'world-class' organisations. The effects of those changes are daily becoming more inhibiting to UK military capability.

lm

[Jackonicko]

Good point! There also seems to be a more conservative approach to the whole issue of risk among the IPTs which further increases the trend towards reliance on monopolistic OEM/DAs.

But this is not a good thing, and is hugely wasteful and expensive. It surely isn't irreversible, either? But what is needed is a recognition of the value of the institutions whose role has been marginalised in the way you describe, and a retreat from the blind, doctrinaire Thatcherite adherence to the holy grail of Private Finance being the solution to everything.

In these days of very tight budgets and finances, spending more money than is necessary with companies like BAE is indefensible. £7m apiece for the first elements of the GR4 upgrade is not cost effective, and it means that frontline force strength is being threatened in order to generate monopolistic profit levels for BAE.

There is, moreover, colossal waste in the defence budget. There are Jaguars sitting at Cosford with fewer than 2,000 flying hours on the clock at the same time that the RAF is looking at spending millions on a Tornado SLEP and the Harrier rear fuselage fix. Spreading fast jet flying hours over a fleet of slightly different composition would be much cheaper, while still allowing the retention of some STOVL capability for the carriers, etc.

And that's just one example. Unconverted Tornado GR1s have ended up being broken up for spares or given to museums or gates with airframe life remaining while the GR4 fleet will require a major SLEP to reach its OSD.

If aircraft have life remaining surely it's best to keep them in service and save hours on other types which are more critical and on their replacements. Keeping the Jag Force going for an extra three years would give BAE time to get Eurofighter right, and would add three years to the Eurofighter's service life, for example.

[Alibi]

Under the Mod's next STP (Short Term Plan) big cuts are planned.

The navy will be split into 3 fleets, the A, B, and C.
A Fleet will fester alongside in the docks
B Fleet will patrol the UK
C Fleet will go abroad on the war against terror (****) etc
If a C fleet ship breaks down the bits will be robbed of a B fleet ship.
1st Sea Lord dissagreed hence his early departure.

RAF...... oh dear!!!!!! I hate to say!!!!

[canberra]

this is some of the things ive heard suggested to save money in the raf;
get rid of the 3 messes and just have one dining hall
when it gets dark, go home
for on base vehicle use , use wrecks from the scrappy
only night fly one night a week
in buildings with windows leave the lights switched off in daylight
have 3 weeks block leave at xmas/new year and summer and two weeks at easter
if its warm in a building switch the heating off
get rid of blues as working dress
all these are brilliant ideas, but not suprisingly theyve fallen on deaf ears