Have we been 'invaded'?

[Groucho]

Here's something that has puzzled me for many a year: UK territorial airpsace does, I believe, extend 12nm from the coast of UK. The English Channel at its narrowest is, I think just under 18nm wide.

Question 1: How do we 'divide' soveriegn airspace with the French at the narrowest point?

Question2: (the big one?) If Russian a/c transit the narrowest part of the Channel WITHOUT dip clearance, they must, presumably, be breaching our limits?

So, did the Bears have dip clearance and a flight plan?

[Background Noise]

The FIR boundaries are shown on this chart: http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-F1D332AFC42194A2FED9D1A2F36783B8/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_3_1_1_en_2015-04-02.pdf

This has been done for years, we used to do it to and from Gibraltar - along the FIR boundary! They will probably have a flight plan but not dip clearance.

[Roland Pulfrew]

As BN said, this used to be pretty common. Transit along the FIR boundary at VFR levels, monitor relevant ATC freqs, don't talk to either. IIRC national airspace is limited to the equidistant point where it narrows. The UK and France can't both claim 12nms in the Channel.

[Background Noise]

Sort of equidistant - usually it follows straight lines lie meridians or point to point - have a look at the map referenced above.

[Groucho]

It is a common mistake, BN, to confuse FIR boundary with sovereign airspace.

[skippedonce]

Groucho asked:

Question2: (the big one?) If Russian a/c transit the narrowest part of the Channel WITHOUT dip clearance, they must, presumably, be breaching our limits?

So, did the Bears have dip clearance and a flight plan? Which Bears? To the best of my knowledge, no Russian Bears have circumnavigated the UK (ever; Soviet Bears maybe, but I doubt that too), and those that have entered the 12nm sovereign airspace boundary have done so on a dip clearance when coming to an airshow.

[Tankertrashnav]

To clarify the above, the recent incident when Bears were supposed to have flown right up the English Channel and into the North Sea was incorrectly reported. The aircraft did in fact turn mid channel (somewhere South of the IOW?) and returned West whence they came.

[Tashengurt]

Have we been invaded?
Yes.
By the Russians?
Probably not.

[Basil]

Have we been invaded?
Yes.
By the Russians?
Probably not.
HEY! You Raaaacccciisssttt, man! ;)

[Groucho]

I had the (wrong) impression that the ships were 'escorted' by TU95s as they transitted La Manche, but it seems they were met in the North Sea. I should have twigged when the news said QRA from Lossie!

It still remains an interesting question though, IF.............? TTN appears to be happy if they stay 'on the line'?

I recall in the 70's a TU16 (Badger) flew inside the 'mouth' of the Firth of Forth just outside the 12nm line, and I believe it was at low level.

[mr fish]

infiltrated is probably a more accurate term.


FISH.

[TBM-Legend]

Have we been invaded?

How quickly you forget 1066!

[NutLoose]

Do you think they can get them to do Eastbourne's airshow?

[Tankertrashnav]

I recall in the 70's a TU16 (Badger) flew inside the 'mouth' of the Firth of Forth just outside the 12nm line, and I believe it was at low level.

Also in the 70s I recall a couple of Badgers over the North Sea taking a look at an exercise we were on - but that was well out of the 12 mile limit. What was mildly disturbing was Northern Radar reporting them as "...friendly traffic on a reciprocal heading, will pass 2000' below you on your starboard side." Squinting out of my window was surpised to see said Badgers flash past, just as predicted. Still, I suppose they were friendly!

[BBK]

Thread drift but aren't some of the FIR boundary wpts on the London/Paris border named after English admirals who beat the French. BENBO, HAWKE etc?

Not to be confused with DELBO and BOYSI to the east (of Peckham!).

[Pontius Navigator]

Territorial waters are often claimed on "base line principals". Note I Said CLAIMED.

For instance UK could claim 12 miles off Great Yarmouth to 12 miles off Cape Wrath.

OTOH hand this can be challenged as happened during Confrontation with Sunda Strait and Lombok Channel. The USA often contest Russian waters because of this. The Russians could legitimately claim that the English Channel is an international water way. Remember too there are traffic separation lanes and the east bound is on the English side.

During the Cold War the Shetlands Tug was often on or just inside the 3 mile limit and the Malin AGI was known to transit the North Channel and monitor the testing ranges at West Freugh and Eskmeals.

There should be free flight in FIR but of course some countries, such as Greece contest this

[Daysleeper]

Thread drift but aren't some of the FIR boundary wpts on the London/Paris border named after English admirals who beat the French. BENBO, HAWKE etc?


so who is DIKAS named for then? :E

[Unchecked]

There's UVAVU in North Yorkshire (near Catterick think), where Vic Reeves and Bob Mortimer hail from. Always wondered if this is a coincidence!

[ORAC]

PN, the 12nm territorial limit is international law under the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. (http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm)

The disputes concerning Souda Bay, Lombok Channel etc concern the Right of Innocent Passage.

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, true, in the case of Sunda Strait etc, this predated the law. It could be argued the English Channel is innocent passage.

While the 12 mile limit is one thing, straightaway base line principle is something else.

[thing]

How do we 'divide' soveriegn airspace with the French at the narrowest point?The FIR boundaries actually favour us in terms of airspace down the narrower parts of the Channel. However having said that Lille TMA extends into our FIR...

Albeit FIR boundaries aren't sovereign boundaries as someone has already noted.

[melmothtw]

Albeit FIR boundaries aren't sovereign boundaries as someone has already noted.

Interestingly, Singapore has been in charge of a large swathe of Indonesian airspace since 1946. Indonesia not ready to take over airspace from Singapore | The Jakarta Post (http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2015/03/14/indonesia-not-ready-take-over-airspace-singapore.html)

[Basil]

melmothtw, Let's hope that Jakarta Post article doesn't open a can of nationalistic worms and push their government into providing ATC before they feel ready.
In any case, it's a nice little avoidance of the expense of doing so and suits both countries.