SO Cathay with family. [Archive]

cxorcist

14th Apr 2015, 16:25

On the CX cadet package, family does not work in Hong Kong unless you are independently wealthy. I have flown with a half dozen guys in this situation, and not one has indicated anything less than misery. Truly, if this is the best deal you can find in aviation, your best bet is to find a different line of work. Seriously! I cannot recommend CX's cadet scheme to anyone with family or over 30 years old. You will never, I repeat never, get a base in Canada. Unless you have a right to live and work in the US, that will not be an option either.

SloppyJoe

14th Apr 2015, 16:29

Join now and 2.5 years to right seat of wide body, will it work? You decide if you can move on in 4 years. Planning for a career here, I would say no it won't. Looking for a better job and have 4 years to waste getting hours then yes it will work.

monster330

14th Apr 2015, 16:56

On current package, totally and utterly untenable. You WILL go backwards.

More so if you a bring a family along.

Accommodation options, will be on par of all of you in a flat that was likely the living room only in size of your home in Canada. Tiny shoeboxes here. V V. Unpleasant.

Very unhappy place here. Look elsewhere.

Cathay is not a good prospect. Not for a loooooong time, if ever.

Stay away and be glad you did.

It is an LLPCC now masquerading as a serious carrier.

Wish I could offer better.

SloppyJoe

14th Apr 2015, 18:00

Most of guys posting here had better options when they were in your shoes. Do you have multi crew time in a jet? If yes then better options elsewhere.

Do you have fast jet military time? If yes better options elsewhere.

Do you have command time in a multi crew turboprop? If yes better options elsewhere.

If you have none of the above use it for what it is, there are no better options. Join and get your time in a multi crew jet and move on. It won't be easy but doable for 4 years. Don't spend the forgivable loan, pay it back when you have time in a jet and another job option and move on.

I was there 8 years ago, if you don't have multi crew time there was/is nothing better. Get the rating, get the time and move on. Yes it will be hard for your family but it is doable for a short time. As I said before, as a career, no way.

Arfur Dent

14th Apr 2015, 18:03

Tick Tock, Tick Tock........... (stand by - incoming from STW);)

invitED

14th Apr 2015, 18:33

I'm Turbo-prop captain, but in freaking cold northern canada.
Thanks for all your answers but what exactly make this option not good ?

The money ? what they offer equal almost 6000$ canadian its pretty good, what is so expensive on a day to day life in HK ?

The work schedule ? hard to be worse than EK specially on wide bodies from what i understand we get super compact roster leaving some time free for family.

Also why not a career option ? After the 4 first years money get better as FO and i can get maybe an EU base (got a passport ) or canada

Thanks to be more specific on what makes it not a nice place to be. And leaving after 4 years of sweat and tears to start over all the way down the seniority ladder seems harsh

bell1st

14th Apr 2015, 21:55

Yes, you could make $6000 CAD a month, but your 900 square foot flat will cost you $3000 of it to rent. If you are currently living in Winnipeg, Montreal or Vancouver, your grocery bill will be double what you're spending now when you get to Hong Kong. If you're in Yellowknife, a third more. Further out, maybe about the same. Gym membership in HK is double the cost of Canada. Children's education comes partially out of your pocket every month and sports, dance or music lessons for your kids are double (or more) the cost in Canada as well. I've been at CX almost 10 years and no prospects of a Canadian base in the foreseeable future. London maybe, but not guaranteed. Ability to commute from HK and super compact rosters is a player as a SO, but as a FO would depend on what fleet you're on, which you have no control or say in. Airbus, not a prayer! 747 is now just a freighter fleet, probably not until about my seniority. 777 would have a good shot, but almost everybody in the company senior to you is trying to get on the 777.
To put it in perspective, an acquaintance (777 FO) just quit CX to join Encore. They see more future there than here. Feel free to PM me if I can help or you want more details.

wantobe

14th Apr 2015, 23:16

wow, this thread is going better than expected so far.

http://i.imgur.com/agJIP.gif

cxorcist

15th Apr 2015, 00:02

EU base? Keep dreaming invitED. It won't be an option for you for decades. I promise. $6000 CAD does not buy you crap in Hong Kong. Super compact rosters? Only on the 777, what happens if you get the 747 or Airbus. No ultra long haul on those, at least until A350. You want to live on $3000/month after rent in Hong Kong? Be my guest, but don't you dare complain once you get here. You'll be wishing you never left the Great White North.

broadband circuit

15th Apr 2015, 00:03

Ah yes, another candidate who takes the HK$ package and converts it into their home currency and believes it's reasonable.

What is so expensive in HK?? - Real Estate!!

I know SOs who are single and making ends meet by flat-sharing. That can't happen when you bring a family. To get a decent sized place to live in an area that's acceptable for your family, you'll be using the "allowance" plus a third to a half of your salary. And when you rent in HK, you need to 3 months up front - 2 months deposit plus the first month rent. So, to get a decent place for your family you're dropping more than a whole month of salary - a pretty significant amount of cash when you've only been here a month or 2.

Once you're in a flat, you need to pay for utilities. Electricity is not cheap here, and if you're from Canada, you'll probably struggle with the heat and humidity for 10 months of the year. Running the aircon 24/7 chews the power.

Groceries have already been mentioned. The family will want western food, and that's all imported and expensive.

And who's tried to sell super compact rosters to you?? If you're on the right fleet, and if you're senior enough, then maybe, but there's a few ifs in there. As a new joiner, no way in the world, for at least 3 years. Then maybe you'll get half a year as an SO of compacts, then you're a JFO and no compacts for another 6 years minimum.

Bases - another pipe dream you've been sold. There are guys who've been here 20 years who can't get a base.

You've tried to compare it all with EK, and you're right, it's not perfect there, but it isn't here either. Making an objective comparison shows most things are slightly better here, except housing. Salary vs cost of living is similarish, and rostering/lifestyle is crap at both places. But at least there, you get given a decent sized place to live in an area with other expat families. your accommodation costs there are $0. Your accommodation costs here are extortionate.

If you meet the entry requirements for EK, or any other major, then go there. If you come here, the only person likely to get a Canadian base is your wife when she gets the sh&ts with living here and takes the kids back home. Separations and divorces are not really talked about on here, but everyone knows someone who's ex-wife and kids are back in [insert country - Canada, NZ, Aus, UK etc], and they're spending all their days off commuting back to see their kids.

Don't do it......

Lowkoon

15th Apr 2015, 00:27

Also think about the aircraft rating. Hong Kong airlines and Dragonair both hiring, and both give you a rating, and both pay more than CX SO. You can use either of them for a rating, then move somewhere liveable.

The medical for your family is inadequate, and getting less adequate. Get a genuine quote for health insurance that is transferable back to your country of origin. Subtract that not insignificant amount from your SO salary.

Start googling English speaking schools and their fees. Ask them about debentures and places available. Is your wife able to home school your kids?

You can not understate the pollution issue. There is a phenomenal array of chemicals in the air and the water in Hong Kong. The Legco responsible for alerting you, is also the same group that would be liable if there was a problem ever admitted to, so you can see the potential conflict of interest there.

Just across the border, (Air doesn't respect borders), we have this tragedy unfolding. An 8-Year-Old Girl Has Become China's Youngest Lung Cancer Patient - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/an-8-year-old-girl-has-become-chinas-youngest-lung-cancer-patient-2013-11) Anecdotally, this record has already been broken. What price do you put on that?

Arfur Dent

15th Apr 2015, 01:09

Very balanced so far. One thing about bases is that if you ever get one as an FO you will have to return to Hong Kong for your Command Upgrade and then start the process all over again to get on a Base. You will probably opt to stay on your Base for ever as an FO - hundreds are already making that choice.

AQIS Boigu

15th Apr 2015, 01:39

invitED,

Do you know anyone in CX? I suggest you speak to them and get a no BS assessment. If you can afford it why don't you come to HKG for a visit? Converting the salary on offer into your local currency is a fundamental mistake a lot of applicants make.

When you come here I recommend to do the following:

- see a few real estate agents so you can ascertain what you can (and unfortunately can't) afford.

- go to a few supermarkets and have a few meals in restaurants and get a feel for the cost of living.

- speak to some parents (plenty of them in DB) about schooling and what it takes to get a kid into a good (possibly Canadian) school; extra fees and debentures are just two things to consider.

Most SOs with family I fly with put up to 50% of their salary towards rent; with two kids there is not much spending money left afterwards.

Canadian base - forget it; EU base - well I just had a look at the current basings bid and there are over 90 pilots awaiting one. We hired a lot of ex-RAF pilots on C-scale a few years ago and I don't need to explain to you what that means in regards to your chance of a LHR base.

On the other hand there are plenty of people who just don't want to hear the truth; they come here, live in poverty and get the rating and then will most likely move on to another airline in the Middle East or their home country (recently two 777 FOs moved back to Canada to fly a D8) - if you are one of them and if you are successful and join CX I kindly ask you not bitch to me when we sit together in the cockpit in the middle of the night on our way to YVR.

AB

Yonosoy Marinero

15th Apr 2015, 01:40

Join now and 2.5 years to right seat of wide body, will it work? You decide if you can move on in 4 years.

InvitED; Not only everything that has been said so far is very, very, very, VERY true, but if you do think of the '4 years and I'm out' option, I wouldn't recommend that either.

First of all, the upgrade time is closer to 3.5 years than 2.5. By the time you have upgraded and flown enough hours on the right seat to 'validate' all those semi-worthless SO hours and make you somewhat marketable to another airline, you are looking at something closer to 6 or 7 years.

By which time you're close to 40 and had better be certain there has not been a downturn...
Airlines have expanded more than ever in the last few years. Cadet pilots, MPLs and others have seen themselves propelled to the bottom of seniority lists of major airlines like in a dream. These will also be the ones suffering the redundancy axe when things turn sour again, and they will.

Being at the height of an 'up' cycle, you'd better ensure you join a place you'd enjoy long term, lest you find yourself stuck in a groundhog day nightmare, or end up fighting with thousands of similarly experienced pilots for the same job...
And by the way, the seniority list isn't moving north that fast as it is, with one of the fastest fleet growth and hiring cycle CX has ever known. Expect 13 to 15 years to command, if that's your goal, and assuming things don't start going limp again.

Oh, and let me join the chorus: Do NOT expect a base. Not anytime foreseeable, no matter what the hiring team might tell you. The only incentive for CX to open bases is to get rid of those on housing allowance, and that's proving barely worth the trouble to them as it is. You will not be one of them, and CX will have no incentive to post you out to where you want to be.
Compact rosters are in high demand by people a lot senior to you, if you even end up on the proper fleet.
Commuting across the Pacific is ill-advised at best, even if your roster allows it.

Heed everybody's warning on here. This is not necessarily the most impartial forum when it comes to CX, but if you have made an effort to reach out to the CX cadet / no-housing S/O community, you'll find their answers will sound familiar.
The recruitment team, on the other hand, is under pressure to find enough people to fill the seats on these terms and will happily distort the truth to try and polish that turd.

Transitioning to jets is not the easiest step in one's career. It doesn't mean you should bite the first shiny apple that's presented to you.

Farman Biplane

15th Apr 2015, 01:44

Compact rosters might not be available soon, never guaranteed!

Loopdeloop

15th Apr 2015, 02:42

That's a surprisingly balanced view you've got on this thread. I always say to people that if you're young, single and don't mind sharing a small flat with a bunch of mates then it's a good gig for a few years but if you've got any children then it's sadly not.
CX pay 70% of your basic school fees but the fees count as cash so you're taxed at 15% on those fees. Given HK$90k school fees, that's HK$36.5k/yr per child from your own pocket. In addition, every school also has some sort of debenture/levy and CX don't help with these at all. The cheapest of these is probably about HK$40/yr so that's a minimum of HK$76.5K per child per year.
If you've just the one child, don't plan on having any more and will be happy living in an 800sq/ft flat (check with wife!) then you might be able to make it work but I find it hard to believe there aren't more appealing options out there.
Good luck.

19weeler

15th Apr 2015, 02:47

Very level headed replies so far!

I guess this is what happens when the post hits the web before noon HKG time instead of midnight… 3 coffees in the system instead of 15 beer.

IMHO: 3 options

1. Stay working in Canada and wait for AC or WJ to call.

2. Leave current company on good terms, come to cx to get a taste of the big airline environment, wait for AC or WJ to call.

Option 1 will be much less stressful on your marriage, family and finances.
If you choose option 2, all the information posted above is quite accurate.

Sorry, I forgot option 3: Stay working in Canada and wait for AC or WJ to call.

Good luck!

19weeler

15th Apr 2015, 03:12

CR, yes… what is our industry coming to when low cost carriers are starting low cost carriers??

Time for us to get our testicles back from the FAU and start costing this arrogant, control hungry, short sighted management, some money!

Sorry…. thread drift. Too much coffee!

bushbum

15th Apr 2015, 03:36

invitED, I would really like to sit beside people like you but I will honestly say you might be better off trying Jazz/Encore as a route into AC/WS first.

Captn_Kirk

15th Apr 2015, 06:27

Let's be honest, if he joins with the 1,000,000 HKD "joining package", it's doable.
It's just enough to cover rents for a 700sqf flat in a remote area, or a 300sqf in Central for 3 years.

Biggest issue with a family: schooling. 3+ years of waiting list for Kindergarten or Primary in International Schools. Secondary school less of an issue.

Food can be cheap if you eat in McDonalds or Chinese food most of the time.

If you really want to live in Hong Kong, then Hong Kong airlines is probably a better deal (housing package, FO rating, and they are even more desperate than CX to crew their planes)
But most of the other issues (schooling, pollution,...) remain the same.

Frogman1484

15th Apr 2015, 08:20

That's a surprisingly balanced view you've got on this thread. I always say to people that if you're young, single and don't mind sharing a small flat with a bunch of mates then it's a good gig for a few years but if you've got any children then it's sadly not.
CX pay 70% of your basic school fees but the fees count as cash so you're taxed at 15% on those fees. Given HK$90k school fees, that's HK$36.5k/yr per child from your own pocket. In addition, every school also has some sort of debenture/levy and CX don't help with these at all. The cheapest of these is probably about HK$40/yr so that's a minimum of HK$76.5K per child per year.

You also have to add the shortfall from the 90K a year to the actual school fees of 130K for most schools . The Canadian international is even more expensive!
:ok:

Soul planet

15th Apr 2015, 09:02

Any idea about the queue for US base then?

19weeler

15th Apr 2015, 09:30

Like Silber says.

Come to the interview and make up your mind when the offer is a reality.

Cheers!

nike

15th Apr 2015, 14:09

Respect to the thread.

Reality has finally met the 'pprune exaggeration phenomenon'.

Now there is no "you are overstating" counter-argument.

The numbers do not add up.

Isn't that concept a concern in itself?

No one can honestly promote CX anymore.

#peakramble

40Deg STH

15th Apr 2015, 15:17

A very good thread. Advice requested and sound advice offered and very well received from a mature Canadian who like us, enjoys a good drink. Shame the offer is as it is now, as I'm sure you would fit in well.
Due to the C scale, we don't get much experience to work with these days.
Good luck in your next venture.

404 Titan

15th Apr 2015, 22:48

baggagecart

I doubt he will have much left over if anything after paying both Canadian and Hong Kong tax. He will be treated by the Canadian tax authorities as a resident of Canada for tax purposes and by the Hong Kong IRD as a resident of Hong Kong for tax purposes. An please don’t get me started on the buggerisation that is CX staff travel, it’s high cost, high load factors etc. etc. etc. I think your plan is unworkable for a low paid SO.

Sam Ting Wong

16th Apr 2015, 01:11

With a family and a Western lifestyle CX is maybe not the right choice, depending on your current circumstances of course.

I have never been closer to Yellow Knife or Dead Horse etc than 39000 feet. I know where I would rather live ( and I do) , but that is of course totally subjective.

However, and that is unfortunately the crucial point, there are enough applicants who are younger and less demanding.

You have to understand: even IF we would have a shortage, than it would not be because of a lack of applicants, or because the package is not good enough, it would exclusively be because of wrong planning, a big difference.

You guys are fighting the wrong war.

Now go ahead and shoot the messenger, as usual.

cxorcist

16th Apr 2015, 02:25

With the comments about the Encore turboprop LCC, I am reminded of a cadet FO who is leaving here for Encore to fly Q400s. I kid you not!

MTBUR

16th Apr 2015, 03:02

Nothing wrong with flying a Q400 :ooh:

Sam Ting Wong

16th Apr 2015, 03:32

Cathay always had, has and will have one of the lowest attrition rates in the industry.

Totally irrelevant, Cxorcist, as usual.

cxorcist

16th Apr 2015, 07:11

If you say so Paul. I think it is entirely relevant when a 777 FO leaves to fly Q400s for an LCC, but we all know how smart you are from the AOA forums. So you must be correct. Totally irrelevant. CX recruits hundreds of cadets each year but can't manage to grow the seniority list. Does that sound like low attrition to you?

Captn_Kirk

16th Apr 2015, 08:45

Always will have a low attrition, STW?

Did you by any chance notice that expat crew don't get expat conditions anymore? And have close to zero chance of getting a base?
CX is only able to attract candidates thanks to its reputation.

And if the attrition is so low, they might as well reduce your conditions further, as you will probably never leave anyway...

What would you do if you had no housing?
I know I wouldn't stay.

Sam Ting Wong

16th Apr 2015, 09:20

Stop calling me Paul you moron. Do you really think I would post on the AOA with guys like you around??

You guys are calling wolf sinc I am in Cathay.. 10 years and counting... What..If..Will.. Could...Should...

Like some lunatic cult members anouncing armageddon every new year.

The same guys since years and years predicting the melt of the housing market, China, recruitment fiasco, loss of housing, the wheels are falling off, Americans are leaving, SOs are leaving, Command failure rate 20-70 %, the list is endless.

Don't you get the irony of waffling about worsening conditions, attrition etc AND STILL STAYING????

Still, in 10 YEARS in did not happen.
Why don't you guys face REALITY ? Lets try to get THE BEST WE CAN, NOW. Not in some imaginary cookooland scenario.

Sigh..

Sam Ting Wong

16th Apr 2015, 09:37

Kirk,
yes of course I noticed and I find it as worrysome as you, but that is not the point.
Of what relevance is the seniority list??? All that matters for them is: can we fly our planes, yes or no.
And the answer is YES. Do you think they don't plan in retirements? Do you think they get caught out by the handful that leaves?? Of course not, they KNOW the numbers, they have it right in front of their screens! Its not rocket science! It is irrelevant if I or you like it or not, but you just have to admit that ALL the doomsday calls of the last DECADE were wrong!! And still you guys are like, oh yes, but THIS time they got it wrong, THIS time its different.. LUDICROUS!!!
You are saying you would not stay if they lower your conditions further. GOOD. Because that is precisely your only alternative. Pouting in pprune leads to NOTHING.

If you want to do something while you are still here:

Stop telling SOs their package is inferior, firstly because it is not, secondly because than these spoiled kids would maybe not vote down a pay deal
- Stop listening to Americans they will leave, because they won't
- Don't EVER vote down a PAY INCREASE. Just down do it.

And to CC:
I said from the beginning it is useless like that and, unfortunately, I was right.
We must include no more discretion or forget about it. Wearing red lanyards and making a grumpy face in the briefing area is just not that impressive in the end.
Since Captains have to sign the paperwork, I suggest we let ONLY Captains vote.

iflylow

16th Apr 2015, 10:14

I agree with cxorcist, Sam Ting Wong is Paul M.

cxorcist

16th Apr 2015, 15:36

Paul STW,

You claimed low attrition. If that's the case, please explain how the seniority list did not grow last year and yet CX hired hundreds of cadets. Did we have hundreds of retirements? I must have missed quite a few parties.

PS - I never, ever called a housing meltdown. I'm not in the business of predicting what I can't. I don't think I've made any predictions that I recall. I will predict CX having more mishaps if things don't change.

Blowback

16th Apr 2015, 15:41

I usually don't attack individuals everyone has an opinion and a right to voice that opinion but in STW his handle is very apt

He has got everything " Wong " clearly management trying to counter all the negative sentiment voiced here, what he fails to realize is the depth of anger and negative feeling amongst the crew to this company . It's bad and it runs very deep

So let's Have a quick poll and please be honest. If CX gave notice that the housing allowance were to be scrapped tomorrow how many would or could afford to stay
I might want to but couldn't afford to so I would be gone as soon as the allowance was cut

Arfur Dent

16th Apr 2015, 16:45

Did you notice what a mature thread this was until 'Sam the stooge' turns up?:mad:

iceman50

16th Apr 2015, 23:12

baggagecart

They get different allowances as they joined on a different CONTRACT.

All your argument will do is lower the allowance for the EXPAT to the new slightly higher HK pilot allowance.

Did you sign the new contract knowing what it entailed?

Sam Ting Wong

17th Apr 2015, 00:39

Blowback, maybe you are right. I hope you are! But look at it from a more distant perspective: our job is clearly defined, fly from A to B. I certainly see an increase of cold blood anger lately, I hear explecitives when talking about management, and I hear threats of leaving or early retirement. But they are just that: threats. I do not see a compromise of safety or lack of efficiency, I do not see people refusing discretion.

Arfur, don't forget, you (sort of) invited me 😎

Cxorcist, I do not care about seniority numbers. I do not see a crew shortage, and so every B scaler leaving and getting replaced by C is a win for the company, not a loss as you imply.

Why do we talk now about housing for B suddenly, Rod et al?? Where did that come from?

It is because YOU guys started it.

YOU guys keep on telling the C scale guys how bad, how unfair, how insulting their package is. For years I hear that in the cockpit, the sorry, emphatic look on your face when you talkto the poor, deprived SO.

Now you get what you have sown.

Demands like the one from baggagecart above is what you get in return.

Plus they will vote down even reasonable pay increase offers ( 10 % plus in 3 years plus 5 years LoLis not bad, it just isn't)

You primed them for years for more, now deal with it.

Congrats!!

boxjockey

17th Apr 2015, 01:06

STW,

Now you have left no doubt about who you are, and it becomes very easy to discount anything else you say on these forums. The LOL jab gave you away!!

box

cxorcist

17th Apr 2015, 01:36

Paul,

The seniority list has to grow if the airline is to grow. Right? Or am I just really bad at math? Seems to me we are already short of pilots, at least on some fleets. So we might need more pilots to fly those shiny plastic jets coming from Airbus. I realize not all will be growth, but those which are will require about 20 extra pilots more per aircraft.

Also, you say management celebrates when a B scaler is replaced by a C scaler. Really? You'd rather have a zero or near zero experience, cheap "pilot" in need of massive amounts of training OVER a pilot with thousands of flying hours from various backgrounds already in possession of said training. Sorry, I disagree. The guy with a spreadsheet might prefer that, but he does not know anything about running an airline.

Captain Dart

17th Apr 2015, 02:11

I have to say I agree with STW on one point. I know two very senior captains over the last year who resigned, one an STC and a good friend. With an obvious crew shortage, neither was asked, 'what can we do to keep you?', or 'would you like a part time roster' or offered leave without pay. It was just, 'Goodbye, have a nice life'. I can't get my head around it.

I can only attribute it to incompetence, denial, or a plan to replace us with cheap ex-cadets, low-timers and locals. Unfortunately, I suspect that the last is most likely.