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Strandwolf
14th Apr 2015, 10:20
There are a lot of pilots thinking of Emirates as an airline to fly for. About a year ago I wrote part 1 for pilots from my home country considering the move. This is presented as is with no corrections (which are always possible due to hind-sight) part 2 is to allow present conditions and considerations to be part of your decision making process.

Part 1

Bottom line - it is really comforting to work for a company that has profit as it's primary objective. This is not to say that political interference, racial representation objectives, incompetent management and petty preferences are not part of the company's identity. Just that if a company wants to make a profit then the rest by default have a lower and sometimes almost non-existant part to play.

Emirates is a great company to work for if you are young (starting out in your flying career), single or married with no kids. Anything else and you are setting yourself up for heartache.

Cost. It is really expensive to live in Dubai with a family. For instance, In 7 years our monthly grocery budget has climbed from AED2500/month to AED6500/month. This over a period in which our salaries have climbed in low single digit percentages per year or not at all in some years. Over the same period, the Education Support Allowance(ESU) has been essentially stagnant, while the schools have hiked their prices from 5 to 15% every year. You will contribute substantially to your kids education every year. It is only going to get worse. Since Dubai has won the EXPO 2020, everything from property prices to parking fees is going up. As it is, there is no tax but you pay for everything. When you pay a parking fine you also get to pay a "Knowledge Fee" and a "Facilitation Fee" for the privilege of settling your fine (Those terms are paraphrased but the item on the fine invoice amounts to those things). These "taxes" are going up and when you query it, the person behind the counter grins and says "EXPO 2020!". Do not come here with debts back home and then try to live on a co-pilot's salary. This is really NB! I don't know how to emphasise this enough. Oh and forget about Profit Share ever being a part of this company's remuneration process again.

Education. To start with, getting more expensive as stated. Additionally, you have to book a place for your kid as soon as they are born (which booking you pay for). In fact you pay every time you just put your kids name on a waiting list, which is not refunded. The British System has kids starting school at about 3, legally required from FS1 (about 5). But if you do not let them start at 3, the schools will tell you that there is no guarantee that their place will be available when they get to 5. The catch is that Emirates only pays the ESU from FS1. So you will pay from AED 20K to 40K per year per kid until they are 5. From then on you will top up the shortfall which can be substantial especially if you have your kids in a GEMS school (for profit, look it up on the web). The non-profit schools are better, but not much and there are essentially only 3 good schools; JESS, DESC and DC (again, look them up). You are virtually guaranteed that there will not be place in these 3 as people are flooding into DXB again. GEMS is not bad but the owner only wants money and they have some very questionable ethical and educational principles. For the most part people are happy though. Wellington is probably the most subscribed. Most important here - school is one of the 3 most important aspects of family life in DXB. And you are GOING to battle with it, especially from the point of view of housing.

Housing. Not enough and not always in a good place. The 2nd is luck of the draw and not fair to complain about. But, it does play a big part in which school you would like your kids to go to and since schools are a big problem, the house location becomes a big issue. The biggest issue is that there is not enough and EK always has a battle to mollify new joiners on housing. This is the 2nd important aspect of family life in Dubai and it is not easily rationalised. If you are lucky, you will be located in a large development not unlike the gated communities in the rest of the world. They give your family a community and lots of support, more so if you are located with the rest of the chaps you join with. You could be spread over the whole city though as complexes are not always ready at the time you may join and then temp accom or vacated units or any variation in between comes into the picture. And EK will NOT let you change and does NOT let you participate in the process. There are exceptions as always, but you will fight for years to create an opportunity for an exception.

Medical. Not as good as it was and getting worse. Substantial waiting to get family to EK Clinic, somewhat alleviated by family being allowed to go direct to 3rd party service providers without reference. But the company spends a lot on medical and all they are doing to fix that problem is cutting back on benefits, not the reason why people are getting sick. Most pilots supplement with a form of top-up insurance. There are stories (most unsubstantiated) about EK cutting off support after (6 months - number varies) for critical illness (Cancer), but they are difficult to verify. Most important, the company has grown but the pool of doctors and dentists and support staff has shrunk. Medical is problematic.

Promotion. This is the 3rd important aspect of life in DXB. Once you have a command, life becomes affordable in DXB - sort of. The problem is that this is so unpredictable. There is an average time, something like 4.5 years at the moment. But you should expect closer to 8-10 years from now on. In broad terms, since the average age is so low, the pilot pool needs to double before you get your command (no retirements). At the moment there are 3600. That means you will get your command when there are 7200 pilots in EK. In practice, because of growth, attrition and some retirements you can subtract about 20% off that number and you will get your command when there are 5800 to 6000 pilots. That is still a growth of up to 3500 required. Thats a minimum of 5 years at 700 per year which has never happened. Then you have economic slowdowns, A380 wings that are cracked and need to be replaced, runway closures for 3 months, new aircraft only replacing retired aircraft and you have issues from short to long duration which mean that that 5 years will only increase. One of the biggest at the moment is that new joiners on the old A330/340 fleet will have to wait for the fleet to die (no earlier than 2017) before accumulating the required EK time (not EK type) for command on an appropriate fleet. If you are lucky you will go direct to the 380 or 777 but at the moment they are taking new joiners in on the 330/340 fleet.

There are many other issues which will become too demoralising to elaborate on. Emiritization (government wide program to put Emiratis into every post and position in the country - a big one at the moment and EK is a major part of this program). Class of citizenship (you are a second class citizen and if something goes wrong with your career you are out of the country - NB for your family because if you loose your job at home your family carries on as normal but not here!). Flying Roster, (there are quoted numbers of pilots off on long term sick leave that defy belief so I won't quote them - but they [management] do not know, nor do they want to know, what the EK type of flying does to you). Driving on DXB roads (in some ways better than SA since there is no aggression but the style is scary - take the Mumbai style [since they are the majority population here] which is fine if you're in Mumbai where the speed never goes above 30kph, relocate to a place with 7 lane highways and speeds from 180 in the far left to 20 in the far right and figure it out for yourself). Family in DXB for prolonged periods as your family does not escape like you do (the sand gets a bit much eventually and I wont even touch on the temperature although since you live in aircon all summer that does not affect as much but that in itself is a problem if you like the Chevrolet life in SA). Leave (which for some has always worked perfectly and others has never worked and the company often uses leave to manage costs). Career advancement (only works as long as it works for the company - when they don't need you, you are out of the post. Only ever budget on your basic salary!

As always, the positives will be shorter since there are many and you will want to rationalise on these points anyway so I wont embellish too much.

Company finances. Good to work for a stable, growing company with lots of money. Stated above.
New aircraft and even newer ones coming for the next 10 years or more. B777X and lots more 380's (and possibly/probably the A350). We all want to fly the biggest and newest.
Opportunities for the kids at school. My kids have gone to many places in the world on school trips(subject/jollies/community outreach/DukeofEd award etc), sports tours, music training and tours and will do lots more. Most of these would not have been part of life or even possible at home.
Recreation. DXB is a hub and air travel is easy. Lots of interesting places are close and staff travel is fine with a bit of effort. Nothing will ever be as good as SAA travel perks but in the world picture SAA is abnormal. Recreation in DXB is also great from boating (some crazy types do it year-round), to diving, to hiking, to Kite surfing and even dune-bashing in your 4x4 (one only buys 4x4's here!).
Safety. We still get a kick from going off anywhere and leaving the house open as the kids are coming home from school later. Or going out at night and leaving the kids at home alone in an unlocked house. Also love seeing a bank worker put money in the ATM at a mall and there is only 1 bored guard not even watching and his only weapon is his cell phone on which he is in any case far too busy texting home to Sri Lanka to care about what is happening around him. Or being on a flight and the wife is fetching the kids at the beach on the other side of the city at midnight on her own and when she gets stuck as she doesn't understand the 4x4 process, lot's of people of all races actually come to help and not hinder. Or leaving your camera somewhere and days later you remember where you left it and come back and it is waiting for you where it has been handed in after being found.
Seniority list. Even with Emeritization, the only people to loose their posts are the managers and the seniority list is inviolate. It does not mean as much as at SAA since your command depends on your fleet not your number (Boeing was at 3 years and Airbus 5) due to cost, but no one is going to jump past you.
Destinations. If you still want to see the world, EK does fly everywhere. Some are shaky like Kabul, but others are wonderful like LA & San Francisco. And if you do not like long distance then bid for the short range stuff and the rest of the pilot pool will worship you while you get what you want (the rider is that the 330/340 fleet only does India and Africa at the moment!! EK5xx/6xx/7xx/8xx/9xx series flight numbers).
Friendliness. EVERYONE in this city is friendly and helpful, possibly some in the gruff New York way, but everyone will try to help and the worst ones are the expats. (come to think of it, the worst drivers are the expat soccer moms in an over powered 4x4!)

Part 2

The reason why I thought that part 2 is necessary is that I don't know when last I drove to work or flew with someone who was positive. I don't think I'm a negative person but right now things are negative. Someone I chatted to recently described the corporate environment as toxic. Most of us think that is a pretty good word to sum the situation up with.

With no particular structure or plan, here are some thoughts.

Since I wrote part 1, the company has grown by 100 pilots. There are now just over 3700 pilots. Do we have problems with recruitment or retention?

Malcolm Gladwell writes about a "Principle of Legitimacy", look it up. But essentially rules, policies and management style must include 3 aspects for a healthy "corporate" environment. 1 must be fair, 2 must be predictable and 3 the underlings must feel that they have a voice. Since I have brought this up, you are guessing that this must be contentious, right. Well I don't think any of them exist in Emirates. The most frustrating part is that management do not have the maturity to treat the culprits and not the group for transgressions. The standard refrain is that there are too many issues and too many people to handle the individuals. Well then how do the American carriers with 3 or more times the people do it? And in some cases like SouthWest become one of the top companies to work for? The bottom line is that each time some clot does something silly here, we all get punished. And it is getting stressful as you can achieve almost nothing to manage your life since all the little things that existed to create predictability like access to information (eg early roster information) are being taken away. And as they say, the 2 things that contribute most to stress are lack of predictability and lack of control. Rosters are full, we are flying hard. Options to contribute to our roster build are now virtually non-existent. We get them at the last possible minute despite the fact that they are completed within days of bidding closing. We are told they need the flexibility but my roster never changes and there are 5 times the amount of cabin crew and they get theirs a week before us? So to sum up this rant - Stressful (no predictability, no control) and Toxic (no voice, no logic, no fair).

Everything we hear about medical is anecdotal but Smoke and Fire must apply here. Not enough doctors, unreasonably large numbers of pilots on long term sick leave (reasons unknown), cabin crew not allowed to be sick without clinic visit (infer a hours long wait due to lack of personnel here!), career progression halted due to sickness ( the excuse is, if you were sick then you have not had the continuity of service to be ready for command). Actually I want to give this one attention. If continuity of experience was important, then no 380 or 777 FO would get their command until they are too old to fly since they can go weeks without a landing/take-off and a high percentage of their hours are in the bunk. The 330 FO's are really getting experience with a 90 hour roster and no layovers and no heavy crews. But then experience is not actually what this is about, is it? Back to Medical; the world does not have enough knowledge about Fatigue let alone the impact of an EK type roster on health. Lip service is paid to things like flight time limitations. When it suits the company, minimum rest of 12 hours can be programmed but if you try to swap into minimum rest then it is not acceptable - i.e. There is no policy or knowledge, just management idiosyncrasies. And the benefit for EK is that we all go away to die. Any health issues that could be attributed to rosters, abnormally high radiation levels due to EK type flying etc, all get handled out of environment in which EK is responsible. There is no community responsibility, there is no long term liability, there is no come-back. And that means there is no need to give it attention.

When I was hired, Emirates did not say "come and fly for us, we will fly you to the max, there will be no time for life while flying, but then we will give you a week/month/whatever off. Then come back and fly hard again" or any variation on that theme in which you know that they give you nothing but money and hard flying and then life continues when you are between flying. Emirates said "bring your wife along for selection, let us show you what a wonderful life you will have with Emirates. Let us show you what Dubai has to offer" in other words Emirates offered me a life. Now the way our flying is working there is no time for life. And when you say you are tired, you are told that you need to rest between flights, that is what a rest day is for. But wait, did you not invite my family to come with me? Do you know that a family needs attention?

Possibly the last 6 to 8 months is going to change, there have been a lot of aircraft arriving and not enough pilots. But I don't think so, I think the style has become entrenched. One of the worst to come is the new roster system we are all waiting for with fear and stress. The present one does not work because of all the conditions and restrictions placed on it. One of our managers for instance does not believe that pilots should be allowed to have multiple days off in a row. So that is a restriction placed on the bidding system. The rumour is that the new system will have just as many restrictions and also only allow 3 days off. Because office workers only get 2 days off don't they? Well sure; but do they fly from Harare, signing on at about 3 in the afternoon, fly to Lusaka and then Dubai and land at 5 in the morning - on a 2-man crew? And then if the company deems it necessary within 12 hours you go off on a night flight to India over the same hours. If that office worker can do that and safely land the aircraft and then run a life with only 2 days off in 7 then that office worker is my hero. No, we were offered a life and right now we do not have one!

Ok that's enough for now. If you want to come to Emirates, look at it all and know what you are coming to.

colo18
15th Apr 2015, 18:29
Excellent article my friend! Very objective...

I am considering joining FZ since I would like to go back to the airline. Currently I am flying home a Private Lear60.

However in November I went through the selection process with EK and after 1 month I was given the NO thanks. That was very sad.

I was in QR for 5 years. But taking into consideration all that you have mentioned here I rather stay home. The reason is I have 4 kids and it seems impossible for a FO in FZ to survive with such a big family. Even though command upgrade might take only 2 years.

Once again thanks for such a comprehensive report. Very useful in my case

170to5
16th Apr 2015, 04:26
Very, very accurate (with the exception that soccer mums are the worst drivers...) post.

Sadly, the people who can change the farcical situation the company are in simply don't care and if they did, they'd be too incompetent to fix it.

Make this a sticky!

nakbin330
16th Apr 2015, 06:30
Make this a sticky!!!!

Dropp the Pilot
16th Apr 2015, 07:15
To be made a sticky.

Beforehand, perhaps add a bit about the cynical and arrogant theft of leave i.e. take 10 days leave to find that in the remainder of the month you are working 75 hours. Your "vacation" month is often the most exhausting month of the year.

Whairdhugo
16th Apr 2015, 07:19
Spot on mate.

SOPS
16th Apr 2015, 07:37
As I have said several times before......you are punished for having leave. ( if you can get any in the first place).

PositiveRate876
16th Apr 2015, 08:33
Right on!


The issues Strandwolf brings to light are just the tip of the iceberg.


Throw in pilots being evicted from villas they've lived in for 13 years, and forced to "select" their new home without the opportunity to view it before hand.


Many more but to tired to post now.

Jumeirah James
16th Apr 2015, 19:16
Excellent post Strandwolf.

Twiglet1
16th Apr 2015, 19:19
And when you say you are tired, you are told that you need to rest between flights, that is what a rest day is for

When days off are at a premium Pilots will also naturally start using "rest" days as a way of catching up on lost time with the family.

Panther 88
17th Apr 2015, 06:03
Strandwolf,
You are so correct in their thought process about comparing our days off to the office workers. Have had this argument for years with cubicle dwellers, even at other airlines. But if they need to trot off to the doctor, this just go, during office hours. We can't do that at FL 370. If I am correct, they can take 5 days leave, Sunday thru Thursday and end up with 9 days off, the two weekends. And that is how we are looked at...office workers, by management (well, very upper mgmnt). That is probably where the 8 days off comes in and Why we get blocks of leave of 4 days (5 including the day off after leave).

See the office workers and their bosses have to work 160 hours a month as a general rule. We only have to work 92. So what in the world are you greedy, needy, prima donna pilots complaining about? Do not kid yourself, that IS EXACTLY their perspective of what we do and how we work. And their bosses perpetuate that thinking. The bosses do NOTHING to change that kind of mindset.

Why do you think the purser of the flight where the copilot went incapacitated got a Chairman's Najam, or whatever the highest award is called? But nary a mention of the captain, who flew, communicated, coordinated, taxied, etc., to a safe outcome, solo. No mention of the crew that flew an incorrectly loaded freighter, to a safe outcome, other than the safety report. These are examples of the lack of understanding and respect by the mngmt of what our job entails. Thus our working conditions. Simple really.

polax52
17th Apr 2015, 07:17
OK, enough said.

I think that 99% of Pilots employed in good quality western airlines are convinced that Emirates airlines is no longer the place to be. Shame really!!

SOPS
17th Apr 2015, 09:51
Excellent post Panther. As a slight thread drift ( and I know this as factual, it's not a maid told me story), there was the cabin crew members who delivered a baby in flight, and ISO getting a thank you letter, were reported for opening the EMK without the Captians permission. The culture of fear has permeated so far into the culture of EK, I don't think there is any turning back now.

vfenext
17th Apr 2015, 13:28
Ah SOP's can't resist sniping from the wings of forced retirement at his former colleagues. You are sounding more and more sad everyday. Keep taking the medication or on second thoughts maybe not.

SOPS
17th Apr 2015, 14:27
Forced retirement ......no a long long way from that...just telling a story VFE...I thought this what this forum was about....

Strandwolf
17th Apr 2015, 15:17
No polax52 I wouldn't say one should not come to Emirates! Just that one should make an informed decision. A good analogy sadly for our situation is rat poison - 99% food and 1% that kills the rat. And what I mean by this is that in truth, 99% of what we have here is good. It's just that the 1% of rubbish I've mentioned above, because it has become so entrenched and pervasive, starts colouring all the good stuff with a pretty gloomy hue. Probably a bit contentious writing this post as well because we are the sort of people who are prone to doing silly things like paying for our own ratings and accepting ludicrous training bonds just so that we can fly. In other words this effort is going to be all you need to view everything I wrote above is worth ignoring. And there will be pilots who are going to frown a bit and may even look at me sideways for the following, but such is life.

I like the flying! I have fun on virtually every flight and we have a tremendously diverse operation which is challenging and inspires thought and effort on most occasions. Virtually to a man, everyone I have flown with is worth flying with and that means a lot to me. And this is odd since we are not a homogenous bunch from the same training and same cultural and ethnic backgrounds. Possibly because of where we are and the mindset with which we got here, we all put in more effort in the cockpit?

The frown and sideways look bit. Many aspects of Ops and Training are very good. For instance, for every story about how a pilot on operations was badly treated by Ops, there will be another in which the situation was well handled, possibly more. I also enjoy training events, no one is there to take you out and again virtually to a man the trainers enjoy what they do and try to help. To a great extent though we have to admit that we can apply the American parable about the farmer and the travellers here (on both sides) - hopefully you can figure this out for yourself!

You have to consider your options and what's available. For me, family safety is my main issue considering where I come from. This environment ticks all the boxes on that score and more than that, due to the positives I mentioned in part 1, whenever we even test the concept of leaving my son tells me we can go on our own. I can't make a call on the other gulf carriers but I do know that I would not go near one of them normally, but even there it depends on your circumstances. If you want to be a part of a big operation which is the next best thing to a stable, legacy carrier, then Emirates is probably one of the few options out there.

Ultimately it is sad that the rat poison syndrome exists. The problems I mentioned above really are almost all-consuming. One does need to know about them, consider them and define a relative importance. Whether you are in, or thinking of getting in. Even though I am fundamentally a positive person, at present I struggle to shrug off these issues just because there is so little I can do about them. And worse, we all know that with little or no cost, most of the issues can be sorted out if there was just a will to do so. I don't think there is a will to do it though and that is where it all falls apart.

PS, 170to5 I agree; we all know who the worst drivers are. It just unsettles me the most when I see an expat soccer mom doing the LH lane 180 kph thing, which inspired the facetious remark!

uba737
17th Apr 2015, 15:33
Found this article! The compensation part about half way down the article is very interesting as to what TC thinks of us!

Emirates CEO Calls U.S. Airlines' Open Skies Arguments 'Fallacious' and 'Malicious' ? Skift (http://skift.com/2015/04/10/emirates-ceo-calls-u-s-airlines-open-skies-arguments-fallacious-and-malicious/)

halas
17th Apr 2015, 16:18
Najm has to be awarded by posting a nomination.
No nomination no award.

halas

glofish
17th Apr 2015, 20:37
If we treated them badly, if we didn’t provide them the kind of work conditions that they would want, they would simply leave.”

Dear STC, that's exactly what they are doing!

With all due respect Sir, either you didn't realise this up to now, or you just decided to ignore it, either way it shows your departure is overdue.:ugh:

Nikita81
17th Apr 2015, 21:20
He knows it. That's why he said it. Still trying to fight against his employees and prove his power instead of appreciate them.

I guess that there should be some sort of psychological test before making someone a CEO. If they prove power addictive, ditch them off.

First part of his sentence is becoming the truth while he is fighting for his power over people's lives and while he is avoiding to look at his own.

polax52
18th Apr 2015, 04:06
I have worked for British, Irish, European, American and Asian managements: As a rule of thumb "never work for British or Irish managements".

British and Irish management are bonus focused and the happiness and wellbeing of staff is absolutely not a consideration. Other managements in my experience have considered staff Quality of life as relatively important.

Oldaircrew
18th Apr 2015, 04:48
Reading that almost made me throw up. "The biggest shop steward in the business" and "we share the loot". Really???

Talk is cheap Tim.

Great original post Strandwolf!

FL XXX
22nd Apr 2015, 09:20
Hey Come on guys. For you who still haven't realized:

He just re-iterrated the fact: If you don't like it; Leave! It's that simple.

It still cracks me up that some people who work for Emirates and to be quite fair now the majority of airlines, still somehow expect some appreciation and that they care about you. Wake-up!!! They don't care!! The only thing they care about is $$$. And at the end of the day, the public doesn't care either about your conditions, they only care about the best value for money that one has to offer.

Just take care of yourself and protect your own family and if you don't like it anymore then do what you have to do. See it as you run your own business and Emirates is your customer.

You are an unwelcome necessary tool for them and the sooner you realize that then you're OK.

SUPPLY AND DEMAND IS WHAT RULES HERE! AND THE ONLY THING WHAT CONTROLS EMIRATES! Are there enough people willing to work, then you get screwed. As long as they don't seriously start parking airplanes, nothing will change. They will pay only what they absolutely have too. They're operating always on the limit, that's why they are so profitable. Hard fact of life.

montencee
22nd Apr 2015, 10:12
...that's why they are so profitable.

Really?

The best they could do in the last financial roundup was a profit of about two thirds of the amount that Lufthansa managed, a bit less than Ryanair made and slightly more than Easyjet.

Quantify that with the unique geographic advantage and low overheads that they have and it's shameful.

donpizmeov
22nd Apr 2015, 11:13
Shareholder advice from LH last year (2014) states operating profit of Euro 55million, down from the Euro 313 made the previous year. Did EK do that badly?

montencee
22nd Apr 2015, 12:11
Looking back the data was from 2013, it was the most recent comparative data from a single source that I could find.

Was it another bad year for the rouble?

LHR Rain
23rd Apr 2015, 05:23
There is obviously money going out the back door or they are hiding money at EK because with the labour cost that the airline enjoys there is no way they should only be declaring a $1.5 billion profit.
Just look at what Lufthansa and Delta declared and all with huge labour bills.
It is pretty sad really that EK treats its staff the way they do and the hide the money so they don't have to pay us.

trimotor
25th Apr 2015, 04:46
LHR rain: just to perhaps add some balance to the argument, remind me again how much UK/US majors pay for workers' housing and medical?

han.solo
25th Apr 2015, 05:29
tri, to keep it in balance the question should include the corporate tax that US/UK majors pay on profits and the differential in labor costs.

MosEisley
25th Apr 2015, 07:25
The real drain on profits is the fat middle management full of people who might do 3 hours of meaningless work per day between Costa breaks and Facebook trolling. Slash management by half and nothing would change except the bottom line.

LHR Rain
25th Apr 2015, 08:07
Tri I am fairly confident when I say that BA, DL and LH pay their pilots way more than EK pays its pilots. That is not to say that those pilots make more than Emirates pilots (that argument is for another day) just that those companies pay more per pilot than Emirates as a company does. After all what is EK labour cost? Way below 20% probably near 15% and the other airlines are mid 30%.
The medical costs are picked up for the most part by the airlines and those pilots enjoy fabulous health care with some really good doctors.
The pilots have to pay for their own housing as I'm sure you know in your cheeky question but it is quite reasonable to live in N America and Europe somewhat. Much more reasonable than Dubai and your money goes a lot further there than in the Middle East.
You are not really comparing the big legacy carriers to the Middle East carriers are you? I don't think there is any comparison.

Am NOT Sure
25th Apr 2015, 19:08
LHR .. Thank you

Those pilots spend their money on a house they know they can keep .. We are mere survivors here

Neptune Spear
26th Apr 2015, 04:41
American Airlines just declared a $932 million profit for the QUARTER and everybody knows what they pay their employees. The pilots just got a 23% pay raise to boot.
How much Is Emirates going to declare? More importantly how many weeks are its employees going to get?
Still hoping for the call up to the Majors. It can't come soon enough.

Gr8AV8R
2nd Feb 2016, 18:10
Hi.Standwolf,
Feeling a little sacred reading your article about moving to EK:uhoh:. Is it going go be so bad? Do you think things might change for the good, since EK is recruiting a LOT of pilots this year, maybe they are finally realizing that their pilots are stressed and fatigued?:confused:

kingpost
3rd Feb 2016, 09:30
GR8AV8R

It's not written to make you scared, it's the facts and no, I don't see things changing. They need pilots to fill the empty seats, not because of fatigue or stress. You have the choice to make the decision.

Aluminium shuffler
3rd Feb 2016, 09:48
He knows it. That's why he said it. Still trying to fight against his employees and prove his power instead of appreciate them.

I guess that there should be some sort of psychological test before making someone a CEO. If they prove power addictive, ditch them off.

First part of his sentence is becoming the truth while he is fighting for his power over people's lives and while he is avoiding to look at his own.

There have been scientific studies in the west that showed that most bankers and CEOs are pyshopaths. Not in the Hollywood way, but in the proper medical manner.

Monarch Man
3rd Feb 2016, 10:25
Alu Shuffler,

The term you seek is "industrial psychopath", also, many like-minded individuals of Antipodean extraction used too inhabit the ranks of the EK training dept.
That being said, psychopath is such a pejorative term and having spoken to a friend of mine in the mental health profession, no not my therapist, he is of the opinion that they are closer to sociopaths.

120feet
3rd Feb 2016, 10:32
Tri Here ya go.
Now feel free to compare.


227 Terrane Rdg, Peachtree City, GA 30269 | MLS #5630208 | Zillow (http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/Peachtree-City-GA/14604115_zpid/26434_rid/any_days/33.63463,-84.436455,33.135251,-85.26867_rect/10_zm/?3col=true)


Not really fair though as it has a yard, and free schools. So a MD80 captain at DL make way more than an A380 at EK. Not even close. In fact DL MD80 FO's have a higher realized income. Than a captain at EK.

Monarch Man
3rd Feb 2016, 12:04
120, just so we can compare, what about the large majority of us who can't/won't/have no desire to live in the US, or Hotlanta etc etc.
Your comparison of a DL pilots remuneration is as noteworthy as it is useless to the vast majority looking at EK as a career option.
A large house in a leafy suburb of Atlanta certainly looks nice, but its disingenuous as it is unattainable.
Here is an example of a nice place where I'm from, which is equally unobtainable to many,

5 bedroom detached house for sale in Bryn, Quarry Lane, Kelsall, CW6 0PA, CW6 (http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-52041205.html?premiumA=true)

fatbus
3rd Feb 2016, 12:49
You forgot , the world revolves around Delta/USA. Also only @7% of EK are from the US and not all of them want to go back.

donpizmeov
3rd Feb 2016, 14:07
Alu Shuffler,

The term you seek is "industrial psychopath", also, many like-minded individuals of Antipodean extraction used too inhabit the ranks of the EK training dept.
That being said, psychopath is such a pejorative term and having spoken to a friend of mine in the mental health profession, no not my therapist, he is of the opinion that they are closer to sociopaths.


These would be the same fellas that stood up to Timbo in the pilots meeting in 2000 and ensured the FOs were not shafted by a raising in the command hours to allow DECs. Because of them the "new" command requirements were withdrawn within a week.

Perhaps we could do with some more of them? :E

Calmcavok
3rd Feb 2016, 14:09
What a strange place to put the dining table!

Monarch Man
3rd Feb 2016, 14:23
These would be the same fellas that stood up to Timbo in the pilots meeting in 2000 and ensured the FOs were not shafted by a raising in the command hours to allow DECs. Because of them the "new" command requirements were withdrawn within a week.

I dunno Don, I wasn't there, obviously you were and are far more enlightened than the rest of us plebs, perhaps you can regale us of your experience so that we can all expand our collective understanding of how to deal with bullies in a professional environment?

120feet
3rd Feb 2016, 14:35
MM and Fatty Yup my bad. I apologize as the argument was about Delta and US carriers I mistakenly included Delta a US carrier. I will try to follow along more closely next time as to be less disingenuous and irrelevant as well as more inclusive to the other 93%. I do like your house better MM. Plebs unite!

Monarch Man
3rd Feb 2016, 14:47
120, no need to apologise, I think your house is much nicer, the lawn needs a bit of NPK, but apart from that :} Also the realtor looks like a lovely lady, much nicer than the northern (UK) salmon shirt wearing, 3 series BMW driving, faux gucci sunglass wearing real estate spiv that would be selling the other address! The US of A isn't the UAE nor is it OZ, the EU or the UK which is my point. You cannot compare apples with lemons, fortunately there appears to be a continual stream of us with enough foresight to be exiting at a suitable rate, they are in effect taking TCAS at his word. For me personally, I am taking EK for every fil that I can get my grubby hands on, in return they get 0 loyalty, maximum inflexibility and absolutely 0 f£cks are given on any work day.

JAARule
3rd Feb 2016, 16:04
I dunno Don, I wasn't there, obviously you were and are far more enlightened than the rest of us plebs
That's probably a part of the problem - you weren't there and you don't know. Maybe listen to someone who was instead of indulging your xenophobic side. Your ignorance of the not-so-distant past and the ground that was lost or made is no excuse for self-centered promotion of disunion.

Monarch Man
3rd Feb 2016, 16:35
That's probably a part of the problem - you weren't there and you don't know. Maybe listen to someone who was instead of indulging your xenophobic side. Your ignorance of the not-so-distant past and the ground that was lost or made is no excuse for self-centered promotion of disunion.

Oh spare me the indignation JAAR, ask anyone around at that time and you get the same story. In respect of my ignorance, I'll ask again, enlighten me, I'm all ears.

migair54
3rd Feb 2016, 17:34
Thank you very much for the post, it's always great to have information before we make a decision, I am in a little crossroad here, I have the option to join any of the 2 in Dubai, FZ and EK. I have done and pass both i'm just waiting for joining date.

my friends in EK are not very happy but they keep telling me that things will be better in 1 or 2 years, and they told me that it's better than FlyDubai where conditions are getting worse.

I have not decided yet where to move, I even consider staying in my turboprop and looking for a good commuting contract, but I think in the long run is better to move on from my current position.

Can someone please tell me what do you think about EK vs FZ??or shall I really forget about both and look for something else. I am really confused and I really need to think this seriously because the bond, moving family etc...

cerbus
3rd Feb 2016, 23:06
Emirates is going to get better in 1 to 2 years? Have they gone mad? Emirates will never get better. The same loonies said 5-7 years ago that the airline can't keep going at this pace and that was before they took away our productivity by raising the hrs to 92 and limited our vacation to 30 days max with most lucky to get 21-24 days when they don't want leave.
Any American seriously considering staying at EK while the US majors are hiring 100 pilots a month is also Mad. What would they stick around for, a serious health issue? Don't worry EK will deliver that for you no problem.

donpizmeov
4th Feb 2016, 05:09
I must admit I don't see anything changing, be it in 2 years or 10. The problems of high hours and no leave have been around for over a decade. It now, however, touches a greater percentage of the pilot group.

Ek consider how things are now the norm. If they change something for the better, it would need to be paid back somehow, or else we would be considered stealing. They steal 10 hrs of productivity from each pilot every month with no guilt. Yet will contact a pilot who has been off sick to remind him he is stealing from the company by not being productive. The company has set deadlines for the issue of leave, and for the past 4 years has not been able to stick to them. Instead we get an email after working hours, the day prior to a weekend saying tough luck, they are still working on it. Six years ago we received an email stating we were short of pilots, and for that year only, we would only get 30 days leave. Since that time, the 30 days has become the target. Manpower Planning crew us to achieve this. When the leave is eventually announced, they will also congratulate themselves on almost achieving 30 days of leave for most pilots. This is how EK works. They don't care.

If you are flying turbo-props now, you will join on the 777. It is taking all of the undesirable flying that the 330 is doing now. All 330s are gone by APR 17. Now, the 777 life isn't going to get as night time centric as what the 330 was, as there is a far greater group to share the cr@p. But the days of 78 hours and 16 days off will never be seen again.

In two to three years the fellas joining now will be writing on here about how things have gotten worse. And about how they would never have moved their families here if they knew what was going to happen. In the same way that fellas that joined two to three years ago are doing now.

fatbus
4th Feb 2016, 06:16
Been here 14 years, other than the early days of the 345 where we were getting 20/30 hours productively pay for a few months, things have progressively gotten worst. Unfortunately I don't see things ever improving.
Those that come have no excuses . Plenty of non bias info out there. People need to educate themselves and their families.
As someone pointed out , most pilots now only care about how to get the most out of company and don't care about EK. Shame but true and can't blame them. I'm one of them.

GoreTex
4th Feb 2016, 07:31
It will never get better, I saw a trend downwards since the late 90s, thats why I resigned, will be out in May

120feet
4th Feb 2016, 13:36
EK is wanting to hire between 600-700 pilots this year. They will lose between 400-500 as a best guess. I think you will see the leaving numbers go up as summer approaches. So given more 380's coming on line, they are basically "maintaining" current staffing levels. So they are not looking to nor wanting to improve conditions. They appear quite happy saving $ at the cost of pilots health and welfare. I, foresee no change except perhaps a further lowering of standards and an increase in training time for new hires.

troff
5th Feb 2016, 07:37
From the trend on the S.L., EK is on target to hire 159 pilots in the next year.

harry the cod
5th Feb 2016, 08:33
120feet/troff

Even 400 would equate to more then 1 pilot per day resigning. A lot are leaving but not that many. As for the 159 figure troff, not sure where that's come from. Since the requirement for hours/experience has changed, the number of applicants has changed dramatically. Recent courses are now starting with 14-16 students each week. They need 500-600 this year. With the current rate, they'll achieve that target.....or at least close to it. The 159 would mean only 3 per week. That might have been so last year but now that's simply way out.

Harry

120feet
5th Feb 2016, 09:10
Harry I agree with you that currently EK is losing one a day. However, I do expect the number to increase over summer after school term and bonus this has traditionally been when most leave. So that would mean an extra 44 pilots resigning over summer. I expect the number to be higher. But it's just a guess. My point was not if EK was "meeting its goal", but if the "goal" was hiring enough pilots to offer relief to the overworked. The answer is no. The TP pilots will dry up shortly, and EK will again have to lower their requirements to something just above ATPL or even frozen. Making every Captain a flight instructor. EK feels they will always be able to feed the machine, so they are not interested in improving QAL. They simply don't care. Not sure if you heard the great silence from fleet. That should be enough. For those joining, remember it will never be as good at EK as when you came. It's been that way for ten years. Understand, you will continuously work harder and longer with fewer days off. If anyone has heard of planned improvements in work rules, hours, or rosters then kindly correct me.

EKbloodsuckingfu_ks
6th Feb 2016, 02:27
It strikes me that this piece of **** company has turned into a replica of any LOCO. Saved an AL-ticket to go skiing and got bumped just because they overbooked Bizz-class. Not even would they let me go through to the gate before one hour before departure. One of the few contractual written in stone-things that we have left, and there, f... me, not even that is reliable anymore. And yes, before the trolls come out and have a go at me for being pissed for travelling for free in monkey class, go f... yourselves.... **** bucket just tipped, resignation in progress!

CamelRustler
6th Feb 2016, 12:58
Latest change to travel benefit. Captain and FO and their families can be downgraded with no compensation. Happened to me. Was told "Sorry Captain Emirates over booked the flight." Apparently this was my problem. So I was downgraded to economy middle seat, for flight back to US. Was offered same flight the following day. Asked if I would get my lost day of vacation back if I took it. The answer was,"No." Hello tomorrow. If it was a return to DXB I would have been SKF for next flight. Contracts really do mean nothing here.