Advice Please - leaving for an offered job

[Compressorstall]

Ok. I'm not in a cockpit job, have been offered a job starting in 4 months, which coincides with Tourex and after being honest to the Desk, all I got told was 12 months' wait for PVR. This would also require me to be given a new tour somewhere else and seems frankly barking. I'm also well past my IPP.
I'd understand if I was on a squadron, but I'm at the blunt end and want the job for some much needed stability. However, all I'm finding is ambivalence.
So, before I resort to sticking my pants on my head and pencils up my nose, does anyone have some sensible advice that could aid me?

[RandomBlah]

Hi CS,

If I were you I'd get your chain of command onside. If you could persuade your boss to have your current position gapped that may help. I understand there are examples where individuals have been released early due to a firm job offer. Could your resettlement coordinator provide guidance? I hear they know the rules very well.

[GipsyMagpie]

So 12 months left. You will get full resettlement with your length of service. Full settlement is 7 weeks during which you can work for someone else but not be paid (except through a golden hello when you finally leave). So still 6 months adrift so you need to ask for 6 months PVR which might be more palatable to manning than asking for 4 months. Since of course you also have a full year of leave just plonked into your lap you could ask CO for permission to work in spare time which I think is hidden in an AP somewhere.

[Whenurhappy]

Have you calculated all your leave, graduated resettlement leave entitlement etc? You'd be surprised how much you have accumulated/carried over. I've just taken over from someone in a mission critical post who left under normal 'PVR' arrangements and was gone in 10 weeks, given all his leave and resettlement he has to take.

[[email protected]]

Compressorstall - I am assuming you are under 50 because over that age they can only hold you to a maximum of 6 months on PVR.

Gypsy has the best idea - try to negotiate a 6 month PVR and then you will make your in-date for your job in 4 months easily.

I don't know if the whole PVR time-scale has ever been challenged by an employment lawyer.

[Tiger_mate]

If you are in a head lock with Manning; you need an arbitrator. I know of one who took evidence of employment offer to his stn cdr and made his case in a logical NOT emotional manner. Short story, once he had a 'sponsor' the job was done. Shout the odds and the system can and is likely to, make life difficult.

The six months notice 'entitlement' comes at age 50 or 30 years service. Likewise you can engage in resettlement at this time regardless of intent to stay until 55. I am glad I did because at 54.5 I caught pneumonia which floored me for several months and would have meant missed resettlement briefings had I left it to lastminute dot com. ( As far too many servicemen do )

[Compressorstall]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. The offer of a job came out of the blue, but it suits me and my family at my time in life. I'm not quite 50, but I've been a wandering soul for a long time and have just been surprised that a system that appears quite ambivalent, just throws up hurdles. I know Manning must seem like they are controlling the deck of the Titanic at times.

[Pontius Navigator]

CS, on the 50/6 or 12 month rule, there must be a sliding scale.

If you were 49/9 then your PVR must be at 50/6 since you could have PVRd 3 months later. Just a thought.

[Hangarshuffle]

Don't waste any of your Graduated Resettlement Time, or the grant/money that comes with it.
Think 4 months is too tight to pack everything in. Does the new job outweigh the GRT?


Congratulations by the way in being offered a job - this tells me right from the off you are a person with immediate employable skills and ability and this is brilliant start to a new life-but are you sure you want to rush out to it (the first job offered) and not use what is rightfully yours??
And when you go, it is a rush and a little bit stressful ( I found the money side of it with JPA difficult to get a grip with until friendly Naval admin helped me with it).
But good luck either way.

[Frank_Gallagher]

There is also a QR under which you can leave up to three months early if you have a firm job offer and your current boss is happy to gap your post for those three months. The important thing is that you keep all your entitlements. I used this QR to leave early with a firm job offer and the only effect was a very slight reduction in pension for the three months pro-rata over LOS.


There are ways and means to make this work and I would suggest your best bet is to go see the Chf Clk in Handbrake House - he/she should know all the options open to you and will probably have a better grip on the possibilities than the OC - get PSF onside and he they well get the Desk onside for you and after that life (can) become a lot easier.


Good luck - I hope it all works out.

[Background Noise]

PN and Crab,

The 6 month PVR at age 50 is not a sliding scale, it just comes in at age 50. Neither is it a definite and you can still be kept if required by Service needs etc - although the desk told me, when I took advantage of it, that they were unlikely to decline the request.

This is from AP 3393 (not sure my copy is the latest version):

b. Officers at or over Age 50 or Completed 30 Years’ Total Service. In recognition of their long service, officers who are aged 50 plus, or those who have completed 30 years’ total service, will normally be permitted to exit having given 6 months’ notice, regardless of the Early Termination (PVR) waiting time for their Branch. The Service reserves the right, however, to retain officers for up to the maximum Early Termination (PVR) waiting time for their Branch, or to decline exit on Early Termination (PVR) terms, in exceptional circumstances. Officers in this category who exit on Early Termination (PVR) terms are not normally subject to the RoS requirements at Chapter 4 but should also be aware of the provisions of paragraph 2301.

c. Officers under Age 50 and Not Completed 30 Years' Total Service. Officers who are under age 50 may be granted Early Termination (PVR) but this will be subject to Service manning needs and to satisfying the RoS requirements at Chapter 4 Section 4. Officers are to give a minimum of 6 months notice to leave the service. Those officers who cannot be released on the requested date will have their application dealt with in accordance with paragraph 7608.

Frank,

Didn't that early departure proviso only apply to leaving at IPP? It allowed you to leave earlier than 16/38 but still receive a pension. Not sure how long ago you left but I have a feeling it no longer applies.

[Pontius Navigator]

BN, my point, based on logic of course which we know is irrelevant is this:

At 49-7 you PVR and have an exit date for 50-7. 5 months on, now age 50, you exercise your right to 6 months notice.

I know however that playing your own game can have adverse consequences such as an OOA tour etc.

[Background Noise]

Quite - or just wait until 50 and go straight for the 6 month option. My excerpts were just to clear up the 'they can't keep you more than 6 months' perception.

Since he's already tried with the desk, and if he's under 49.6 this is irrelevant anyway.

There are grounds for compassionate PVR, or Early Termination as it is now called, but I'm not sure what grounds you need for that. It's also mentioned in the AP.

[kintyred]

Compressorstall,

Do let us know how you get on.

[Compressorstall]

Thanks everyone. I will do. My gut is telling me that the job offer may be pulled as my employers see that it is more hassle than it's worth, and they never have this problem with the Army.

[Fortissimo]

Your desk officer is simply sticking to policy. You need to talk to your AOC and explain your position, point out the stupidity of you having to be reassigned (posted!) for such a short time etc, and tell him you want to go ASAP. Then submit your PVR or whatever it's called this week.

If your deskie comes back with 12 months again, tell him you want an interview with COS Pers, remind him about the Armed Forces Covenant which says you will not be disadvantaged by being a serviceman and point out that you are being prevented from making an orderly transition to civilian life. If you were already a civilian you could change jobs in less than 2 months!

You need to press your case. There have been plenty of individuals over the years who have gone at short notice even with amortisation time remaining. On cost grounds (another good argument) you will actually cost the Treasury less because your pension will be slightly lower for life and they won't have had to cough with your pay and allowances. With SDSR15 in sight, the chances are they will be looking at more redundancies anyway. Lastly, you might want to mention taking MOD to an Employment Tribunal if it all comes to nothing. Crab is right, this has never been properly challenged and I suspect MOD would not want it challenged at all.

Good luck!

[Lou Scannon]

I had a problem leaving the Service some 38 years ago. I decided to leave just prior to my 38 year point to take up a job offer with the airlines. MOD initially said no. I then pointed out that I was serving a contract and not a sentence and that as they had just made a whole bunch of aircrew officers redundant...with just six months notice...they had effectively modified that contract allowing me the same notice period.

It took some time, but in the end they saw sense and agreed, changing I later heard, the notice require for anyone else.

Amusingly I mentioned that I had taken advice from a local solicitor. I was asked, smilingly, if he was up to speed with Service regulations. I played it very gently saying that I could only hope so...but perhaps he had picked up a few tips in his previous job before he became a family solicitor.

...and then broke the news that he had just retired as a Wing Commander in the MOD Directorate of Legal Services!

Keep at them and you will win in the end.

[Bladdered]

OCPSF told me I could not work until my terminal leave - I politely told him to shove his shiny trousers where the sun don't shine, left work on the Friday and started work the following week at the start of my accrued annual leave and before all of the remaining 5 months of resettlement I was entitled to. Good luck and don't forget to get a refund of the NI you will be paying when you are still conjointly employed by the RAF and your new employee - I got nearly 900 squid back.

[Compressorstall]

I've been open and honest and tried to make it easy for Manning, but they seem determined to make it hard for me. The difficult thing is that if they post me somewhere I don't want to be, whilst knowing that I sought to leave, how deep I will have to dig to find motivation whilst knowing that I have lost out on a job which meant I could settle at home with Mrs Compressorstall. It's an interesting study in bi-directional loyalty.

[Pontius Navigator]

CS, we had a PVRd pilot who was immediately posted as an ops officer. I have to admire his determination and resolution to work to rule. He arrived at work to the minute, departed the same, applied no initiative and did nothing he was not told to do.

You get the cooperation you deserve.

Experienced this twice and to those of us who cared they were complete wastes of space. But do unto them as they do to you.

[Compressorstall]

I won't work to rule. I believe in doing a good job, it just all feels a bit malicious. I'm not wired like that.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Having been posted to a 3 year+ PVR ground tour....

You would only bugger up those around you by working to rule.

So, I carried on working my socks off, volunteered for everything...
and got huge numbers of freebies, a bunch of happy people around me, my full leave allowance (!), another 60 (fun) flying hours, etc, etc....

oh, and thanks to Saddam, my three year ground tour ended up being only 2 years 3 months :ok: What a great guy!

[Pontius Navigator]

CS and Fox3, quite, most of us are wired that way and I can think of more positives than negatives.

In earlier case, both AEOs as it happens, the permanent fg off (remember them?) Was brilliant though OC AW was on his case from day 1.

Another, sqn ldr ops at Wittering, worked all through his terminal leave to ready the station for its first taceval.

[OutOfThisWorld]

How did you get on CS?

A friend of mine had a similar situation a couple of years ago. The Desk Officer told him that he should consider how he would feel if the shoe was on the other foot and the RAF wanted to make him redundant with 5 months notice when his aircraft retired (the VC-10).

Ironically that's why he wanted to leave. He lost out on the job but ended up with an A330 type rating on Voyager.

[Just This Once...]

You can be made redundant very quickly and outside of a redundancy period under the revised ToS. You only get up to 3 months pay too.

Redundancy is not what it was.

[Compressorstall]

So far, the response has been 12 months no matter what, so bad luck. I have been reminded that I am not in the zone for promotion, so by staying, I take what I get given or I simply PVR and hope.
The problem is I have my family wondering what is happening, Mrs CS could do without a short notice move and we have to go on knowing that I work for an ambivalent employer. Yet I am continually told stories about colleagues who achieved what I am asking.

[Chugalug2]

I am continually told stories about colleagues who achieved what I am asking. I rather suspect that they simply went ahead and pressed their case, just as fortissimo advised earlier. I'm afraid that you, Mrs CS, and any little CS's have to do just that, or nothing will actually happen. I applied as a PC to PVR in 1972, with every chance that it would be turned down and I would get OC GD Flight Machrihanish, or the like, in its place. Instead I was called to Adastral House (is that like Handbrake House now?) for an interview. Turned out to be with my ex boss who had seen my letter go across his desk.

Despite being responsible for Wg Cdrs and above he had asked to see me. Was I going out under a cloud? No Sir, I want to go on flying but the RAF has quite reasonably other ideas. Would I stay on for another 18 months and he would ensure I got a golden bowler that would be available then? No Sir, that's very kind but I've burned my boats now and it wouldn't be fair to the Service. Then I'll see that the PVR goes through for you. Thank you Sir, that's all that I could ever hope for.

I was lucky. I was always lucky with my bosses. What you have to ask yourself is, are you lucky? Well, are you?

[The Old Fat One]

Since of course you also have a full year of leave just plonked into your lap you could ask CO for permission to work in spare time which I think is hidden in an AP somewhere.

In QRs if I recall correctly (like 12 years ago so don't quote me) but this is EXACTLY what I did and the joy of it is it trumps everything. I've put this up before (because the question has been asked before) but this is fact so it is what can be achieved assuming the regs have not changed.

Finished work on a flying Sqn Nov 2002.
Started new job Nov 2002 (and got paid from the get go)
Officially left RAF May 2003 (and got paid until I left)

got the NI back out the blue 3 years later without applying luvverley jubbly

I had all of the following well on side: Staish, OC Admin (ma'am - I fancied the pants off you :{), my boss and most of all WO PSF. Get the right people on side, this is all sooooooo much easier.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

QRs do say that you can work in your "spare time" or words to that effect, with your CO's permission, as long as it doesn't affect your primary job. They also specifically say that you can work during terminal leave, but not when on a resettlement activity.

If you're on your way out and have lots of leave, then there's no justifiable reason I can see from them stopping you working, but getting to that stage for CS may be the tricky bit. I suspect people who left 10-20 years ago in the pre-JPA era may be disappointed by the "computer says no" attitude we often encounter nowadays.

I appreciate that a while ago, having a well-placed Wg Cdr or Gp Cpt willing to push your case could work wonders; but nowadays it seems you're often told "the system can't do that."

[Chugalug2]

5F6B:-
having a well-placed Wg Cdr or Gp Cpt willing to push your case could work wonders; but nowadays it seems you're often told "the system can't do that." Point taken absolutely, 5F6B. That is the answer that I get whenever I start one of my interminable "Back in my day" monologues, and rightly so. Of course times have changed, whether for better or for worse is irrelevant. But one things holds as good now as it did then, and that is that the Good Lord helps those who help themselves.

All this good advice could rebound dreadfully on poor old CS. It is for him alone to decide when and if to PVR. The only point that I, and I suspect others, are making is that there are certain times in one's life to take a chance. Joining up in the first place, getting married, having kids, and of course deciding on a completely new career. I suspect he's done most of those and hopefully, again like me, regrets none of them. As far as I was concerned the moment one started thinking of the latter it was a cue to taking the plunge; time wasted prevaricating was time wasted in getting onto that ever important seniority list outside.

I, or rather we, went for it. No job offers, no home (as we had to march out of our OMQ of course), so "Hello Mum", and not even fully qualified anyway (I had a CPL but of course had to wait until leaving to put an IR onto it). It was the same chance everyone else in my shoes had to take and luck, as ever, stayed with us, as I got IR and a job within the same month of leaving. In other words we took a chance, and one that paid off handsomely (though costing me an RAF Pension, which the small print in QR's confirmed).

That's all it comes down to really, taking a chance. In that regard nothing much has changed, I would suggest.

[Herc-u-lease]

I agree with what Chugalug said. I extracted myself recently from the RAF; I took a chance and left early (pension intact). Rather than thinking about leaving for one specific opportunity, think about the wider opportunities available. It's just one offer you've been made and there will be others. If it's stability you're after then it may be worth taking the plunge. I pulled the pin with no job in mind and it worked out well for me. It might be the case that the current offer might be still on the table in ~7 months time.

I think there has to be grounds for staying put in your last 12 months when you PVR. I would kick and scream like hell to stay where you are - plead family stability, house purchase, kids in school, wife's career, anything to allow you to stay in location and avoid a right good grafting through a 4 month posting.

even if you do get posted (utterly asinine) you should be entitled to at least 90 days notice, and if you're clever you'll be able to make your resettlement etc. make about 5 months which means you'd only have 4 months actually away from home in a ridiculous posting.

So, ask yourself if leaving is about this one job or is leaving what you want to do?

Personally, I've never been happier since walking out the gates. I got a hefty pay rise and pension in pocket, more freedom, more responsibility and no bullsh1t.

Best of luck with whatever you choose....

H

(edited to add - there are several ways to navigate the not working on GRT)

[Compressorstall]

Thank you for all the advice. The saga goes on and worrying as things are about not having a job, Manning seem to prefer you feeling unloved. I don't want the "Don't leave" begging e-mails, I just thought we might have a more collegiate attitude as I have always worked hard for the people I have looked after and I am determined not to leave with a bitter taste as I joined to do the brilliant things I have done in my career.
Thanks all.

[Willy Miller]

I had a gap of about 2 months when I PVRd with all leave/resettlement taken into account - My Sqn CO said there was very little he could do, I pointed out that I could "come out" and be gone today !!! (It was meant as light hearted comment as I was living with the future Mrs WM at the time)
I got 8 weeks "gardening leave"
Ask yourself (and your boss) will the service grind to a halt and nations crumble if you left a few months early?
good luck - be nice, but up to a point, you've given a lot you should expect a little in return

rgds

WM