Do Airservices Have Weather Paints on Their Radars?

[Dick Smith]

In the March 2015 edition of Flying magazine in an article entitled, “Aftermath” about a serious accident with a PC12 the article states,

“At 12.32 the Pilatus was approaching FL 260 when the centre controller advised the pilot of a large area of precipitation, some of it extreme, ahead of him”.

Obviously in the USA the air traffic controllers have paints of the precipitation. Does that happen in Australia? Normally it’s up to the pilot to request the fly-around precipitation and I know a number of years ago when I checked the areas of precipitation were not shown on the radar controllers’ screens. What is the present position?

[The name is Porter]

ATC's have an auxiliary display with the BOM weather radars. It's looped so it's not a real time display. ATC's can give advisory advice only, they are not allowed to give vectors to avoid weather based on the BOM display. The BOM weather radar is not overlaid on the controllers main display.

[peterc005]

I visited ATC at YMML a few years ago and was surprised to see a PC displaying the BOM weather radar next to the radar terminals.

If you carry a smart phone while flying you have the same weather information available as ATC/

[Hailstop3]

And one thing to remember with those radars, is it is precip falling near ground level, so it may be pissing down on the ground but at 25000ft you may be above the worst of it, so take any advice from ATC into context with the overall picture and use your best judgement.

[Squawk7700]

I visited ATC at YMML a few years ago and was surprised to see a PC displaying the BOM weather radar next to the radar terminals.

If you carry a smart phone while flying you have the same weather information available as ATC/

You crack me up PeterC. How did your phone last pick up signal when you were IFR above several thousand when in the middle of nowhere?

[josephfeatherweight]

I can attest to the advantage of ATC having wx radar as they do in the US. I have been accurately vectored around cells, even in close proximity, by ATC in the US. It was obvious that the ATC'er vectoring me had a very good picture as he threaded the needle (me) through a cluster of cells - saves time on the radio too - instead of me asking for a heading or left/right of track. Awesome.
We should get that here!

[Capn Bloggs]

I can attest to the advantage of ATC having wx radar as they do in the US.
Do they have weather radar, or do they have lots of primary radar that picks up weather?

[josephfeatherweight]

Not sure, to be honest. They could see where the nasty weather was, with a high degree of accuracy.

[eternity]

Squawk7700,


Don't let PeterC's comments crack you up too much champ. He's probably accurate.

Back in 2008-2009 I was able to get the bom wx radar feed on my phone whilst flying at 10,000ft between Alice Springs and Tennant Creek on the Telstra network........it was damn slow but still worked.

I hope this doesn't crack you up....


Eternity.

[Dick Smith]

So does AsA have radar that's not as effective as US radar?

[wishiwasupthere]

You crack me up PeterC. How did your phone last pick up signal when you were IFR above several thousand when in the middle of nowhere?

No problem all the way across the Nullarbor below 10000". Minimum 2 bars of reception with Telstra.

[Jabawocky]

I did several hours at FL150 the other day and the Telstra reception was patchy to say the least.

You can't rely on it but when you can get it it is pretty good with the overlay on Avplan. :ok:

[Hempy]

So does AsA have radar that's not as effective as US radar?
You are being a little disingenuous with that question Dick.

Being an electronics man you'd know how Primary and Secondary radar works. The BoM weather radars are Primary, they pick up the reflected return from the source (in their case, water droplets). ASA use the BoM radars, but because they perform multiple 3 degree sweeps to form a full picture the picture when complete could be up to 15 minutes old.

To answer your question, ASA DO NOT have weather radars. They have ATC PSR and MSSR. I have no idea what they use in the USA, but given that their radar coverage and budget is far greater than ours it could well be that they have their own dedicated real time WX radars.

Don't expect an Aus ATC to vector you around WX from the 'weather radar', you are just as likely to be vectored into a cell as away from it given the age of the picture.

Unless you want to install a transponder in CB's...

[MetGirl]

And one thing to remember with those radars, is it is precip falling near ground level, so it may be pissing down on the ground but at 25000ft you may be above the worst of it, so take any advice from ATC into context with the overall picture and use your best judgement.

Not quite correct. Precip detected by a meteorological radar is at the level of the radar beam. Which is near the surface at the radar but because radar beams travel in straight lines and the earth is curved, the further you are from the radar the higher in the atmosphere the radar beam is.

[MetGirl]

Weather radars and ATC radars operate at different wavelengths because they're detecting objects at different sizes raindrop size compared to aircraft size). Not sure what they do in America but I'm guessing some kind of overlay on their ATC screens

[Plazbot]

I checked with an ex US FAA ATC colleague as to how the use their radar for weather. He did not know specifically what kit brought the picture to their screens but it does display in 'real' time. Weather information in his words is a 'big deal'. If they are known to have not relayed known weather information to an aircraft they are disciplined. The weather radar is inherently accurate unless there is a major storm. The weather is shown as light, moderate, heavy and severe. He did not know the exact update rate on their screens but would be measure in minutes not seconds. When observing weather they are to inform the aircraft and ask for their intentions. The most common outcome is that the aircraft then elects to change course using their own airborne radar and their eyeballs. On request the ATC will vector around the displayed weather on their screens. There is no published tolerance by which the radar paints will be made to miss displayed weather. The Vectors are given with the onus on the pilot to accept the advice and for the pilot to keep reviewing the info given by ATC cross checked with their own aircraft radar and what they see out the window.

From my time in OZ as mentioned above the weather radar was just the BoM site displayed on a secondary screen and was for info only. I do recall that we could give information only but not outside of a strange distance like 60km from the weather station. I'd be all for having weather information displayed on any radar screen I used with accuracy enough to actually give and execute navigation advice. If your intent Dick is to pursue this I am all for it and you have my 100% support. Please do. As an ATC I certainly will get much benefit to absolutely no cost to myself........

[HEALY]

Sorry for the slight drift but is related, we operated into YPPH a few weeks ago and asked for the 200 foot winds due to a reasonable tailwind on finals. We're told "not available" and ATC explained on landing that they still have the tools to provide this but now NOT allowed to provide it. Perth can be tricky and this use to be readily available. ATC were equally annoyed and directed us to email air services directly. Anybody provide further scope on this?

[Squawk7700]

Sure, anyone can get the weather on their 3/4G phone but you certainly wouldn't want to rely on it particularly for any life changing weather related decisions.

[cattletruck]

The public BoM radar page carries a disclaimer. Indeed it is very useful and often (but not always) accurate. I cannot confirm but I imagine that's why it's only a secondary/advisory support system to ATC.

I believe the BoM were once sued by the widows of the victims of that awful weather event that affected the Sydney to Hobart yacht race some years ago. Even though the BoM got the weather forecast right on the day, the abovementioned disclaimer is what saved them from losing the case. The BoM was then engaged by these widows to successfully sue the yacht club who failed their duty of care to relay the updated weather forecast to their members.

I'm led to believe there are more empirical radar data sets available from the BoM than that public BoM radar page, but integrating that into the ATC system is a decision for the politicians as it will cost money, and sadly by looking at the current state of GA we all know that isn't going to happen any time soon.

[peterc005]

@Squawk7700 - I wouldn't want to bet my life on it, but my experience is that Telstra 4G is available 95% of the time flying VFR around the southern states.

The aviation smart phone apps now even overlay weather radar over aviation maps. I'd never leave my iPhone behind and have even installed a USB socket in the plane to avoid a flat battery.

[Squawk7700]

@Squawk7700 - I wouldn't want to bet my life on it, but my experience is that Telstra 4G is available 95% of the time flying VFR around the southern states.


Probably about 50% at best assuming my phone works as well as the next guys. YMMB to YECH at 6,000ft last weekend I waited 30 mins just to send an SMS let alone load up the weather.

[Left 270]

I can't remember the last time I didn't have reception at altitude. Spot on out this way at least.

[Radix]

..........

[Centaurus]

We're told "not available" and ATC explained on landing that they still have the tools to provide this but now NOT allowed to provide it.

Reminds me of the days of yore when a pilot could ask ATC to provide a surveillance approach to a runway. It was a very useful fall back approach if the pilot was experiencing navaid problems in IMC. It was mentioned in AIP as an alternative method of doing an instrument approach using a ATC talk-down of distance from runway with desired altitude. Rather like a poor man's GCA.

Is this service still available in Melbourne (Essendon or Melbourne airport)?

I recall asking for a practice surveillance approach into Essendon on several occasions when instructing pilots for their instrument ratings. The usual answer was a not tonight, Josephine reply by ATC. Too busy, or can't be bothered I thought at the time.

Why was this very useful service discontinued by ATC all those years ago?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Latency is an issue. However, the trending images give a better idea if what you are looking at is intensifying. Food for thought, you only need five mobile stations to contact to provide full coverage in the FLs between ML and SY.

I would hazard a guess there would be a demarcation issue if AirNoServices positioned dedicated wx radars alongside their SSR sites and ADS-B ground stations. May have saved the Spud King.

[40years]

Centaurus: Surveillance Radar Approaches were part of the tool set until sometime in the late eighties (or perhaps earlier). They were intended mainly for emergency use. My memory is failing, but I think that they were available at Melbourne only for RWY 16, but I could be wrong on that. A unique SRA radar map had to be loaded, with distances and altitudes marked along the approach at frequent intervals. Before an approach could be conducted for real, the controller must have performed a practice SRA within the previous (can't remember - x) months. Very similar to GCA in performance, with higher minima because of the lack of height finding radar (we're talking Primary). Because of the requirement for constant chatter to the aircraft concerned, it had to be done on a discrete frequency, or at a very quiet time, hence your knock-back. We would get requests from pilots occasionally, which we would try to accommodate, and alternatively a controller might offer an SRA in the hope of gaining some practice, or as part of a check.

[40years]

TAAATS (EUROCAT) was optioned with an on-screen weather radar overlay, but it was a bit kludgy and tended to hide the aircraft returns. It was shown to us in the SIM and the Centre in the early days. There was also an interpretation problem because the controller had no knowledge of the beam angle, etc, hence no real idea of tops, etc. I think it was traded for a better quality mouse pad, or some-such.