Are cabin crew safe or not?

[mary meagher]

A lot of posters in R&N seem to think that cabin crew are not trustworthy, that it is too easy to get a job as cabin crew. This in response to the rule in the US and now possibly in many places that the cabin crew can be the second person to stand by when the pilot visits the loo. Just so nobody is alone in the cockpit, as in the Germanwings tragedy.

Any comment?

[mockingjay]

Cabin crew will have a five year work and personal history/background check before they get anywhere near an aircraft. BA did have a recent employee however who did try and be cabin crew but his work history meant he couldn't. This was believed by many to be an attempt to create a black swan event.

As a whole I would say cabin crew would be very safe indeed however with many becoming radicalised online and Isis now franchising, I would say there is a risk, a greater risk than pilots. After all, why go through all of the expense, time and effort of being a pilot. Just do a course and in a few weeks you could be orchestrating 9/11 Mk.2.

[PAXfips]

I dont know about the CC requirements, but in regard to the GW desaster: that very co-pilot was working as FA for 11 months before FO allowance.

[mockingjay]

You've also got the risks of people who seemingly live happy, healthy lives suffer an incident in their life which changes them. For example, post natal depression. Who's to say someone won't come back to work following pregnancy and then causing havoc due to the illness. They have a clear medical record and no gaps in their employment. So there is an element of risk both for new joiners as well as long term employees. Take the sad example of a long term AA flight attendant who had a meltdown and was sickeningly turned into a piece of entertainment by the deplorable passengers and the news channels.

[Reinhardt]

Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge. The fact that quite a few pilots are married to some is unfortunately shifting the judgment of many.
Basically they are recruited out of nowhere, stay in our companies sometimes as short as 6 months, and after resigning go back to nowhere...
You may encounter some with a little bit of extreme religious involvment - you see what I mean, and for sure I've met some of them which I found a little bit limit for that matter
To give them a function in the cockpit is non-sense.
When my colleague is out to the toilets or stretching his legs - and this last thing in a transoceanic flight is absolutely necessary, and we will continue to do it (in other words no CC is going to clock how much time we spent out of the cockpit, or how many times we go out for a pee) I will remain in charge of who is going to be admitted to the cockpit, and the total stranger who is going to be seated on the jumpseat will not have a word in my decision to open or not the door to one of his buddies...
A suggested SOP : when other pilot is out, and CC observer in, the door will be opened (by remaining pilot) only to the other pilot coming back..... and brief your crew about it, that will deflate some of their self-perceived role.
In other words, cabin crew are much more a statistical security risk than pilots...

[mockingjay]

I would tend to agree. Having flown on many low cost and full service airlines, I am often stunned at the calibre of some crew. It would appear that some are just dragged off of the street. At work I met one FA who thought 9/11 was bombs, and not planes, and another who did not know what 'overwings' were. I've also heard of one deliberately setting a fire so to appear as a hero when he put out the fire, crew stealing money, stealing safety equipment, one having a major breakdown midair after a security threat was made to a flight, cabin crew screaming 'we're going to die' during turbulence and many other incidents that do make me wonder how they got a job. Often I just think it's a matter of: are they 18? TICK. Pretty? TICK. Then they're taken on.

A majority are good, but as flight crew, we don't necessarily control who comes into the flight deck. I know which ones I wouldn't want in, but that's because I doubt their integrity and ability and not because I fear they will be a security threat.

Airlines need to rethink their recruitment policy. It is a responsible job and putting someone who's just turned 18 and has never worked before is simply not good enough.

[Reinhardt]

Now it will be much easier to introduce somebody in the cockpit and take control - a cabin crew male, 2 months in the company (where does he come from ? where was he before ? ) - yes, because of the majority of the crew being female, they will have to bring some of the juniors from the back to act as "cockpit marshalls"
Last month one of them was trying to argue in the cockpit with both of us pilots, in a confuse manner about Iran, Syria, his childhood under the bombs of the IAF and God knows what, he was difficult to follow, and of course none of us was trying to argue...
Last year in the galley a purser was giving hints about the war "many people in Europe" were ready to start - guess what he had in mind...


and those people are going to "monitor" Captains, some of them could even be their grandfather ?


An absolute disgrace, typical rushed decision for PR, unfortunately all over the ME region and Europe...

[thing]

Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge.

Nice to see you have such a high opinion of your work colleagues. I've no doubt many cabin crew have the same opinion of you.

I'm not cabin crew or in any way associated with the commercial aviation industry by the way. Just a pax. I wonder what your opinion of the talking ballast that pay your salary is?

[recceguy]

Cabin crew (smartphones with legs, tabloid readers, avid shoppers, "need to sleep" on layovers, or middle-eastern dodgy individuals) are much more a safety risk than pilots !

Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?

If they lose their job, what investment will they lose ?

How does it look (passenger point of view) to have CC checking pilots ?

Will they have priority to operate the door switch, in case of disagreement with remaining pilot ? :ugh:

[whisperer]

I almost made a comment but fell over the ego and could not climb over the shoulder chips here........

[thing]

Whisperer:

Looking at the abysmal stick and rudder skills of modern 1000 hour wonderkind I'm amazed they have the temerity to criticise anyone else who flies the same shift as they.

[MathFox]

As a passenger I prefer to have a pilot at the controls and have the flight attendants handle cabin safety and serve meals and drinks. (In that order of priority :8 )
I tend to trust the flight attendants with my safety, just as I do the pilots... I know they all have been antecedent-checked and trained. That's the best bureaucracy(*) can provide me.
Cabin crew has to be trusted (and generally can!)

(*) this includes both airline and government bureaucracy.

[Piltdown Man]

My colleagues who work in the cabin appear to be different to those described above. Our CA's are well educated, are fluent in two languages and pretty useful in a couple of others. They have to hop through a fair number of hoops to get their jobs and a few more to hang on to them. I'm proud to call them colleagues and enjoy working with them and socialising afterwards. But the time taken from accepting the job to being online can be as little as 12 weeks.

But having to place them in the cockpit when we go for a leak is evidence that half-witted, knuckled dragging, ignorant idiots are right at the heart of our aviation authorities. Just what exactly what cabin crew are meant to do when they with us has been left out. Furthermore, would they know I've just popped the C/B on 26E that controls the door or that I'm just about to shut down both engines? That is, if I haven't strangled them beforehand.

Then we have the distraction element. One in, one out and the pilot remaining still has to fly, speak and manage the aircraft. And let's remember that whenever someone enters or leaves the cockpit the possibility of snagging something exist. But obviously a stupid sod like me doesn't know, unlike our well qualified authorities who know otherwise, that since last week the chance of a lone pilot crashing an aircraft has increased. These pathetic idiots don't deserve the air they breathe.

So Mary, we are ALL less safe because the Muppets have had another rush of **** to their brains.

PM

[mary meagher]

Piltdown man, my friend, of course the pilot remaining in the cockpit has to fly, speak, and manage the aircraft. One would hope that the Captain would not choose the transit of the Atlantic weather convergence for the best time to head for the cawsey.

We are not asking the cabin crew to fly the aeroplane. Nor are we asking the latest youngster to join the crew to be the one to keep you company,just to open the door when the captain/first officer returns.

BUT as the female is almost never inspired to violent suicide...unless inspired by radical islam, just another person being there will make it more difficult to carry out your wicked intent. It has to be harder to kill one person who could be your friend, and is there with you, than to be alone with the autopilot.

Cabin crew, even the males, have to develop skills of working with difficult people; as opposed to some of the bad tempered scornful male pilots on this thread, including the one based in Quatar. The ones with long service have to deal with all kinds of drunken blokes inflated with self importance. Which would be more the type of persuasion needed than say karate training or using the fire axe.

[average-punter]

Reinhardt (http://www.pprune.org/members/288358-reinhardt)
That’s an exceeding unpleasant post that stinks of arrogance. You must be a great joy to fly with. I was fortunate enough to work in a company where 99% of flight crew valued our input to the operation, were very grateful to us and even took the time to ask our opinions on matters than affect the operation. I suggest you try it sometime, you’ll create a far nicer working environment onboard and your crew will respect you for it.


mockingjay (http://www.pprune.org/members/443937-mockingjay)
I was 18 when I got my first job as cabin crew; I had worked in a variety of customer service orientated jobs before and did plenty of research and homework before attending the interview. I felt I had every right to be on that training course as anyone else. I received positive assessments from senior cabin crew members and thoroughly enjoyed my job.


I will admit that as the Ts and Cs slide the average calibre of any given crew member will undoubtedly drop

[thing]

Call me old fashioned but the loss of flight engineers was a serious detriment to the dynamic of the flight deck.

As you all must know: flight deck of the future consists of one pilot and a dog. The pilot is there to feed the dog, the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.

[DCBOE]

Cabin crew in the flight deck, no thank you.
There are only two ways to prevent another GW or MH370,
No 1, remotely controlled aircraft, ie, drones, no pilots, it will come but not for quite a few yeas yet.
No 2, Flight Engineers, it was a massive mistake to remove Flight Engineers, you can have an unlicensed/untrained stewardess or hormonal steward who do not have aircrew training or medicals and do not have a clue what is happening in the F/D, any pilot can wind down the altitude, turn on to a heading, reprogram the FMS or even switch off all engines and cabin crew would not have a clue, just carry on chatting, or a Flight Engineer, who has years of training, knows everything that is happening in the F/D, knows what every c/b does and can correct altitude loss, reset to the correct HDG, can make sure the FMS takes the aircraft to the correct waypoint, he can even restart the engines.
A cheap get out by the authorities.
CC or F/E, you chose.

[crewmeal]

Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge. The fact that quite a few pilots are married to some is unfortunately shifting the judgment of many.
Basically they are recruited out of nowhere, stay in our companies sometimes as short as 6 months, and after resigning go back to nowhere...

As stated you must have a very low opinion of cabin crew, as did many BOAC Captains back in the 60's and 70's when only the galley steward was allowed on the flight deck for the purpose of serving meals on linen napkins.

It's comments like that that make the divide between flight deck and cabin crew wider at a time when crews should work together. Doesn't CRM do anything for you? Having said that I'm glad I retired from aviation when I did after an excellent 29 year career as cabin crew and even survived speaking to Captains via the FO!

[Monarch Man]

Crewmeal, I like you am quite disappointed at Reinhardt's comments but I'm not at all surprised as I've witnessed all the boorish behaviour described.
For the most part its a generational thing, and I'm sure you'll agree, the more mature amongst us recognise this for what it is.
Having said that I am very very uncomfortable at the idea of having CC in the flightdeck who's sole responsibility is to ensure the door remains viable for the pilot outside to get in. IMHO this introduces additional risk to the safe zone of the flight deck. Its a very short bow to draw to assume that at some point a "sleeper" (perhaps the son of a labour councillor in Rochdale?) of some description would pass the 6-8 weeks of ground school that would allow them pretty much unfettered access to the flight deck.
To me its not abut the quality of individuals, its the quantity, and in this case it is a poorly thought through PR exercise that has made us all less safe.
The germanwings incident was both tragic, and I believe will be shown to have been preventable in as much as the F/O should never have been able to maintain his medical.
If that were the case, then we would merely be commenting on what a wonderful CRM environment Reinhardt creates.

[crewmeal]

Monarch Man - you raise some very interesting points that I've obviously overlooked in the heat of the moment. In my day you didn't have to worry about security and there was virtually 'open access' to the flight deck with kids and families visiting, pax sitting in the flight deck for landing and take off etc. In fact the Middle East and Pakistan were great places to visit. Since 9/11 that has all gone and that part of the world is now is more dangerous than ever.

You raise the point of 'sleepers' which in my view is critical to aviation as so many seem to be radicalised towards fundamental groups. There could be someone that could slip through the net and cause utter devastation. What is the answer? A difficult one. Even with security checks to get access to air side does not guarantee 100% safety. Perhaps carriers need to go down the EL-Al route and carry onboard sky marshals maybe one answer.

[TFlyguy]

And of course a Sky Marshall couldn't be a sleeper

[DCBOE]

And if the Sky Marshall is seated in the cabin and the F/D door is locked then he or she will not be able access the F/D either.
Looks like it has to be a Flight Engineer!
:ugh:

[Feather44]

Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge.
I am afraid your are suffering of a serious "I am god" symptom.

Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?
Yes, this is true. But in that case expect they return you those questions; especially after this tragedy. After all, this is none of our business, let's the company's head shrinkers do their best.

Just what exactly what cabin crew are meant to do when they with us has been left out?
Maybe to open the door when requested by the one in charge and eventually warn you if the pf is suddenly incapacited.

[NigelOnDraft]

MM - please do not take it as an "insult" to the majority of CC. It's just an ill-thought through knee-jerk reaction to a tragedy.

The arguments are well-rehearsed, but a summary to me would be:
The solution to a pilot intent on killing everyone on board is not to add 1x CC to the Flt Deck, but stop the situation in the first place (and research the "suicides", some are when alone, some with others, some where others return and they fight, and MH370 we do not know)
Securitywise we need to avoid a predictable pattern of behaviour or SOP that enables a plan to "work". 9/11 was, from the terrorists pov, a great success: 4/4 aircraft successfuly taken control of, 3/4 reached their targets. All because SOPs and practices were predictable.
I have no issue with CC on the Flt Deck, we need to trust them. What we must avoid is a rule that is adhered to, that places people in a known and easy position to create serious harm.

If we move to the issue of mental health and depression, I know little more than what my OM A says. I will not quote it here, but if poor mental health / depression on the Flt Deck is a safety hazard, formalising CC on the Flt Deck with just 1 pilot does not seem a logical step :oh:

[Rhcriad Bsranon]

Don't get drawn by our man in Qatar, folks.

His apparent tenuous grasp of the English Language, can only lead me to conclude that the type of aircraft he 'pilots', goes back into its box at the end of the day whilst the batteries are placed on charge.

Good luck with the aero-modelling, Reinhart :ok:

Rhcriad.

[mary meagher]

Over on the thread reporting an angry pax assaulted an Easyjet CC, notice that the other passengers sprang to her assistance! and the violent passenger is now explaining himself to the Italian constabulary. I hope his sandwich proves expensive!

But once again proof that the passengers will no longer sit passive when there is an emergency!

[framer]

If the pilot wants to crash the aircraft they will regardless of who is sitting beside them so introducing anyone else solves nothing. What it does do is introduce another human into the mix, one that hasn't been screened to the same extent as the pilot who has always had the option of crashing the plane. One who is more likely to be under financial stress and one who is more likely to be exposed to recreational drug use. Brilliant. This is the dumbest thing I have seen in aviation in my 22 years full time employment.

[beamer]

I fly for a major European Carrier but operate out of one of our smaller bases and as such have known most of our Cabin Crew for some time. As Captain, I will liase with the most senior member of my crew and between us we shall decide who will be utilised for baby-sitting duties in the cruise. If, after our discussion, I decide that an inexperienced ( or any other valid reason in our opinion) member of the CC is not to be used for such purpose then that will my prerogative at the end of the day.

Clearly such reasoning is not possible in quite the same way within other organisations where pilots fly with strangers every day.

As 'Framer' suggests, this is a gut reaction solution to a problem that always existed but which the GermanWings incident has brought into sharp focus. If a pilot wants to bring an aircraft down he or she will do so regardless of whom is sitting on the jumpseat. The recent disaster was unusual in the way the co-pilot 'flew' the aircraft and its occupants into the mountains in a controlled manner. Previous similar occurences have I believe been more violent in their inception albeit with the same tragic outcome.

[His dudeness]

There is no such thing as "the pilots" and "the flight attendants"...

[recceguy]

As beamer said, there is no way :

- any CC will prevent the pilot to crash the aircraft if he has decided to do so. A couple of abrupt flight controls inpurs would send the poor fellow banging his head on the roof breakers panel ....

- in order to prevent the CC to open the door to one of his budies (in a remake of 9/11 scenario) robust SOPs wil have to be enforced, preventing the observer CC to operate the door knobs. This door will be opened by remaing pilots, to the other pilot only.

- I for sure will spend this time in the cockpit :
- not talking to the CC
- monitoring this guy continuously, until the F/O comes back.... :*

[benji]

"Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge."

I am Cabin Crew - and having just spent three nights on a longhaul trip feel like I have gained a little general knowledge about flight ops, because we had a fantastic Captain who endured the evening socialising with us and answering his crews questions. Maybe if some Pilots had the faith in us we are expected have in them each day, they may think differently?

Our F/O however was seen for less than 30 minutes a day and didn't interact with either the Captain or the crew, if you must judge try the person not the position.

[Wirbelsturm]

Great thread, made cry with laughter a few times with comments from both sides of the flight deck door! I feel that there has been a bit of trolling going on and a lot if biting! All IMHO of course.

I thoroughly enjoy my down route time with my peers in the flight deck and some of the fantastic crew who I have the privilege to work with.

We have fundamentally different jobs and I am always the first to admit that I probably do not have the patience and emotional make up to deal with some of the problems that the crew have to deal with day to day with the interaction with some of the more problematic travelling public. I know, deep down, that my frustration would probably get in the way of a more diplomatic solution therefore I leave that to my delegated representatives. They do the task extremely well.

My job is to fly the aircraft, manage the crew and achieve a safe, comfortable, efficient and timely service to the customer. We all have our roles to play in that scenario.

Do I want to have a baby sitter in the cockpit for the purposes of a necessity of nature? Nope. I can understand it is required in some airlines as their security arrangements differ from other companies but it is not necessary.

In my opinion it does undermine security as the lead in for CC training is, indeed, shorter and less intense than that required to obtain an ATPL. It isn't necessary as I firmly believe that if an individual, be they flight crew, cabin crew, male, female, pax or whatever, has a wish to carry out an atrocity, suicide etc. they will find a way.

What does need to be done, rather that the 'needs to be seen' reaction of ill informed Eurocrats dictating policy in an area that they really have no idea about, is making sure that people who have these tendencies are identified, removed from the role and given the help they need. The sausage grinder that is current flying training for young applicants to the role needs to be addressed and the massive financial burdens taken into low paid high stress low cost carriers looked at.

p.s. Just had a lovely night out with a great crew and a highly pleasant evening discussing nothing whatsoever to do with flying. :-)

[skyship007]

El Al security published a real god report on both check in and flight deck security a few years before 9/11. Alas I can't find it, but the main conclusion was that the flight deck must be isolated from the cabin in flight and the only way that can be done safely is with 3 pilots up front. The 3rd pilot can be a trainee or even an engineer in some cases, BUT to save costs there is no reason why the 3rd pilot can't assist in preparing the cabin for departure (Or an emergency) if the cabin staff need some extra help. That way the authorities might allow one less cabin crew member.

The air marshall idea was not too good and the FAA has got some real concerns over the quality of the personnel involved (Too many positive drugs tests I think).

The idea of allowing a cabin crew member up front is nuts, as you are far more likely to have one cause a problem than a pilot and it is a classic case of swapping one problem for another.

The only solution is to isolate the flight deck, BUT that is going to cost money as it requires a serious modification of the forward WC or galley area, to allow the pilots direct entry through a small narrow door from the flight deck. Obviously one of the cabin staff can check the WC is empty before the pilot locks the normal door by remote.
So the mod would require a narrow lowish extra security door directly into the forward WC, a modified WC unit (Might be slightly bigger or have a fold down sink) and a remote control external door.

The FAA, CAA et al do know what has to be done, but because the bean counters are calling the shots, there is no hope of them doing anything like insisting on a 3rd pilot or modifying the forward WC and door systems.

I suppose the insurance industry might take action and give a discount to any airline that fits a double door system with a 3rd pilot, as that might motivate the bean counters to approve it, rather than doing what some of them are doing at present and making sure the agreed value hull insurance policy is more than the value of the airliner, or figuring out how they can dump the company stock their "Friends" own before the price plummets if one of their aircraft is lost!

PS: The 3rd pilot idea will help improve the training of new pilots, as that does need to be improved. It wiil also give some airlines the chance to weed out any odd ball cases, like one chap I remember who was causing his rich parents a lot of trouble and when they asked if there was anything they could do to get him off the coke and out of town, he said yes, pay for my flight training cos I just love a nice uniform!

PPS: There should be a law passed that allows any pilot with training debts to hand back their license and leave, BUT the airline concerned should then have to pay off their training bond to allow them to find a more suitable job.
History always repeats itself and although the bean counters and politicians they fund might think financial slavery is a good idea, I don't and lot of other safety orientated chaps don't think it is either.

:cool::cool:

[JimR]

Portvale, I think you need to read a few more of Things contributions. I'm sure his "just a passenger" comment was rather tongue in cheek.

[pacific_sunrise]

Being CC and often in the CP when 1 Pilot is out for a leak or whatever, I chat with the other 1... At the same time, if need be, I could beat the crap out of the 1 at the controls if he goes on suicide mission ...may not come to much but hey, I would not go down without a fight!
Secondly, if the one at the controls has a heart attack ( which BTW, can be sudden) or any sudden critical issue, I'd be the one to open the CP door to let the other Pilot in immediately... The CC may not know to fly an A/C but they are there for a reason.
Leaving 1 Pilot in the CP may not be dangerous, but it certainly is better to have another person to be on guard... Is that bad?

Why feel threatened by them? With the locked door policy, COckpit and CC rarely can have a natter...enjoy it...it would make a good flight...

[Flying Lawyer]

mary meagher We are not asking the cabin crew to fly the aeroplane. Nor are we asking .....Who are "we"?
(FWIW, I'm not in favour.)

JimR Portvale, I think you need to read a few more of Things contributions. I'm sure his "just a passenger" comment was rather tongue in cheek.It wasn't.
He is, like me, a PPL - just a pax.

pacific_sunrise Being CC ...
Make your mind up.
According to your profile, you claim:
Current a/c Type (Pilots only)
"Boeings..Airbus...Lockheed"

[pacific_sunrise]

Thanks to you, I just edited my profile. As you have checked, I joined pprune in 2005 and have not checked in much since then :) If there is anything else you need to know...don't feel shy to ask! BTW a constructive reply to my post would be more apt, don't you think?

[mikedreamer787]

IMO it depends on the Purser.

If he's tough as nails during the cabin crew briefing on SEP and Security its a reasonable bet that at least 70% of the crew will perform in an emergency. If he's a weak 'one of the boys' type then the captain's the one who has to get tough with the young'uns (the old'uns don't really need it).

This is because the juniors have never been exposed to the potential dangers of this racket (which is understandable). When emphasising the hazards of even a wisp of smoke from any toilet, one will see the blank looks of ignorance on them when one mentions the Air Canada DC9 incident (which I believe is one of the absolute must-sees of any SEP class whether initial or renewal).

Having to run around doing ETOPS over a dark ocean in the middle of the night I don't want them running around like chickens with their head cut off if a cabin fire erupts. The life they save could be my own! :uhoh:

[misd-agin]

Is it safe?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kzw1_2b-I7A

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I'm so glad a no longer work for a big airline. A meeting I attended a couple of weeks ago discussed this problem, one major scheduled carrier said that they had decided only the SCCM would attend the FD. I think they are right, the SCCM tends to be known to the pilots as often other CC are seen once and then go off to other careers/companies.

Nowadays I fly VVIP, we know all our CC and all are welcome on the FD, and that has meant that the "good old days" of CC popping in for a chat and tea have never gone away from our operations.

Mind you, sometimes helping them load all the sea food salads can be a drag! Thank god my job normally keeps me in the front and out of the way:ok: