QF baggies to do receipt/dispatch

[empire4]

Any truth to the rumour that QF baggage handlers will be doing the arrivals and push backs in Canberra? Is it QF mainline or Qantaslink/Cobham or all 3?

[Gas Bags]

No way....Couldn't happen ever.....ever ever ever!!!

[t_cas]

This has been the MO at your opposition for some time now.
Enjoy the show. Don't get to stressed though............

[The Green Goblin]

Every other airlines been doing it like that for years and as much as I'd prefer an engineer on arrival, I feel their skills are better utilised in the hanger keeping them flying.

It's like having pilots doing check in on pilots wages.

[SOPS]

I doubt the people in DXB that are pushing back the A380s are engineers.

[Ngineer]

as much as I'd prefer an engineer on arrival, I feel their skills are better utilised in the hanger keeping them flying.


That's the management spin also GG. However it only amounts to sacking more engineers once the work is gone. It never, ever results in utilising their skills elsewhere. And our high standards subsequently reduce to on par.

Pushback engineers also save flights from overnighting and RTB's from time to time.

[The Green Goblin]

True, but then a business can't have extra guys earning twice as much as a rampie just to save jobs. It's got to be able to have similar costs to competitors and compete in a free market. It can't do that withits hands tied behind its back.

When Ansett went tits up, the boys went why didn't you tell us this? We would have taken cuts and given you whatever efficiency you needed. Management did, but the unions wouldn't believe them....

Luckily as an engineer your skills are transportable and you're not tied to a seniority system.

[Ngineer]

I agree GG that this is seen as purely a cost issue, especially by the bean counters. What they don't realise is that there are no savings to be made when an engineer is checking the aircraft anyway. And as for the safety aspects.....

A lot of airframe damage that gets picked up on wàlk-arounds can be attributed to unreported incidents caused by aircraft loaders (catering/cargo). They rarely come forward and say that they accidentally dented a nose cowl or scraped a door frame. What happens if a person loading your aircraft causes some minor damage and is too afraid to speak up? An extra layer of safety is now lost.

[AEROMEDIC]

I would not like to think that a major defect is missed by a baggage handler before dispatch and results in a catastrophic event.
Consider asking these questions.

Q1. Is it acceptable practice to use baggage handlers for dispatch?
A. The economic modelling and lack of catastrophic events post dispatch say it is.

Q2. Will having qualified and experienced engineers dispatch the aircraft at a greater cost be acceptable to ALL stakeholders?
A. No, only those who see safety as a worthwhile investment would agree and managers are under pressure to improve profits. Most passengers will look to the cheaper fares without knowing what's behind the economics.

Q3. Does CASA care?
A. No.

Q4. Who will face the families to answer their questions when the first catastrophic event occurs?
A. An airline rep chosen because he/she is better at spin than the others.

The safety envelope continues to get stretched as long as nothing happens, but there IS a limit and airlines under economic pressure will continue to try to find savings, and particularly in areas that compliance is less of an issue.
It's as if this company is removing as many things as it can that don't prevent operations from continuing on the basis that there hasn't been a tragedy.

Now THAT practice may have to answer to the law of averages.

[Chad Gates]

QF 737's have been met by "baggies" in places like KTA/PHE/ZNE/BME/CKW/GBW/KGI for years.

[morno]

Do you guys all want your airline to go tits up because it's not getting with the times, and putting these resources in better places?

I don't have an engineer pushing me back, but I'm still here to tell the tale. I bet you any amount of money, that the majority of the guys doing pushback around the world, aren't engineers. Any major problems so far?

In one of the ports we visit, one of the guys doing pushback is a pilot himself. Get some of the best info out of him. And in our major ports, if we really want an engineer, they're just a phone call away and they'll be there.

Aircraft aren't going to start dropping out of the sky because the dude on the headset isn't an engineer.

morno

[The Green Goblin]

Agree morno.

If we don't like the look of something we call an engineer. Pilots are the last line of defence and are generally pretty conservative.

[chockchucker]

I think the point is that the engineers that are so heavily relied upon will be far less accessible when their duties are diminished and they are much fewer in number as a result.

[Boe787]

There is clearly no need for an Engineer to meet the aircraft and do the pushback.

As i understand it,the system employed by for example Jetstar,they have Engineers available if the Pilot requests, as GG pointed out.
I believe in Melbourne for example, these Engineers, 3-4 per shift, reside in an office under the concourse.
Obviously there is a cost saving by not having enough engineers to meet and dispatch every flight.
And when there is an issue, the Aircraft is serviced by a fully licensed Engineer, and signed off.
What i dont understand, is why in between calls as required, these highly skilled Engineers, are not out of the office, and on the ramp doing walk rounds when they can subject to work load?
Surely their eyes and skills should be used when available?

[chockchucker]

Ah Jetstar. And the race to the bottom continues.

May you reap what you sew.

[morno]

chockchucker, can you tell me what is wrong with what Jetstar does? And no I don't work for Jetstar.

[chockchucker]

Because morno, Jetstar and others of its ilk aim to operate to the minimum possible standards. Rather than aim for the highest or in fact set the standard as the industry in this country once did.

Nothing against the engineering staff at Jetstar. As this agenda is driven from board level down.

[cessnapete]

Normal procedure in Europe for years. Why do you need an aircraft engineer to drive a pushback and place chocks, a waste of highly paid resources.

[LAME2]

[What i dont understand, is why in between calls as required, these highly skilled Engineers, are not out of the office, and on the ramp doing walk rounds ]


Past experience shows threats of unprotected industrial action spring to mind if something is found. Better not to find it personally, but to be summoned. Your safety is most important to us. What a load of crap. They needed to add, so long as it costs us nothing.

[SRM]

Nothing in this industry today is based on safety.

[AEROMEDIC]

Normal procedure in Europe for years. Why do you need an aircraft engineer to drive a pushback and place chocks, a waste of highly paid resources.Why do you indeed?

If that's ALL you want done and and nothing else, then in Europe you get what you ask for.
Normal procedure in Europe? If so, it does not make it RIGHT, but I suspect that there is MORE being asked of the wrong people.

A waste of highly paid resources? Defects picked up early can be repaired a lot cheaper than those picked up late. ("stitch in time")

The redundancy features in the design of the aircraft is the first line of defence in the event of a failure. It is NOT a something on which the business model for the operation of the aircraft can be based. It's unfortunate to see some operators do.

Cessna Pete, if you are an airline pilot, and in Europe, I suggest you pay very close attention to pre flights if you only have baggage handlers present.

[Di_Vosh]

As far as pushbacks go - if you got to see even half of the shocking results of some of the pushbacks from the lesser paid, trained-to-lower-standard sorts running around the ramp these days. It's a constant reminder of where we're headed, in general.

Curious.

At least half of Qlink Dash-8's are pushed back by Aerocare. I've yet to notice any difference between an aerocare pushback and a pushback by a Qlink engineer.

DIVOSH!

[chockchucker]

Then ask yourself this DIVOSH;

Why don't aerocare do the push backs on the Q-link 717's in places such as Melbourne?

They are carried out by, you guessed it, Q-link ENGINEERS.


But back to topic and those who crave the decimation of the engineering ranks in order to push the minimisation of standards. No doubt, bag snatchers can carry out the average pushback. Just as an aircraft can be routinely flown by remote control (refer U.S. drones in Pakistan and Afghanistan). But when things go wrong on the pushback and, as in Singapore with a QF A330 some time back there is an uncontained tailpipe fire on engine start, it's nice to know a competent person is on the end of the headset to give the crew an accurate picture of what is happening.Or so I would've thought. Rather than, as in the above mentioned example, have somebody with no clue who simply takes the headset off and runs away!

As it is comforting to know a competent flight crew are on hand to cope when things don't go to plan during flight.

Your arses strapped inside these things day in day out. Just saying.

And remember, the term "sustainability", be it in regard to aviation safety standards above the absolute minimum, or other things in life, is just a measure of what we are prepared to pay for.

Funny how the PM and GG's RAAF BBJ aircraft still get a preflight carried out by engineers at every Maint port (complete with a terminating check at the end of every day's flying. Where as Qantas now follow Boeings absolute minimum requirements with regards to the frequency of these checks) and are dispatched by a qantas or NGS engineer. Why do the politicians deserve a higher standard of safety than the general public???

[Hugh Mungous]

Why wouldn't you want the last pair of eyes to walk around the aircraft, just prior to departure, when everything is closed and pax on board to be someone who is qualified and experienced to do so?? The techies do their walk around very early on in the transit, any anomalies, leaks, ground handling damage, disturbed doors or access panels that occur after the Flt Crew inspection would be left to the discretion of the baggage handlers to report. Hardly comforting..

[cessnapete]

I bet QF 380s don't get pushed back by engineers in Dxb and Lhr.
An engineer is on the headset and oversees the pushback, steering pins etc. and monitors the start and also has a final last check of the aircraft.
The fully trained pushback drivers do not have to be aircraft engineers, again what a waste of qualified resources in Oz if this is the norm.
Aso as an aside, how disrespectful some Aus posters are about baggage handlers, they are not all thieves, as all Jetstar pax are not Boguns!!

[framer]

All the LAME experience in the world goes to waste if the wrong attitude is driving it and I've seen that (complete with cock ups) on more than one occasion.

[cessnapete]

Sounds like 'jobs for the boys" with no technical requirement!!

[Ngineer]

The fully trained pushback drivers do not have to be aircraft engineers, again what a waste of qualified resources in Oz if this is the norm.


Who said that's the norm in Australia cessnapete? It's not AFAIK. Stick to commentating on european standards in the world of bug smashers mate.

[PW1830]

Couple of years ago.
747-400 positioned from hangars for max wt dep.
During push, engineer requested return to blox as he suspected one tyre pressure low. No flight deck monitoring fitted.
After parking I could not visually confirm his diagnosis but he had the experience.
Tyre had damage sustained during positioning and was losing pressure.
Would have been flat by the time we taxied 4 k to runway.
Results of max wt take off with flat tyre?
May have felt something during take off but probably not enough to reject at low speed.
Probably shredded at high speed, possible eng failure,probable fuel dump and return.
None of the above happened because of the experience and vigilance of the engineer during the pushback.
Saved how much money???

[AEROMEDIC]

Aso as an aside, how disrespectful some Aus posters are about baggage handlers, they are not all thieves, as all Jetstar pax are not Boguns!! Cessna Pete, Woody 42.

My post was not meant disrespectfully, rather to say that licence training and operational experience provides much more than that given to a baggage handler.
They do the best they can, but the airline believes that this all that is required based on economics, not safety or logic.
When things unravel and costs spiral past the savings made, the thinking on this WILL NOT CHANGE.

[The Green Goblin]

PW1830

Maybe so, but having lames day in day out, vs the once a blue moon occurrence you mentioned does not weigh up.

Meaning the company could wear the cost of the air return and fuel dump on the odd occasion and still be miles ahead.

[1746]

The point being: which is safer?

[The Green Goblin]

Of course having a lame is safer.

Dick smith coined it as affordable safety. If you made aviation 100% safe we wouldn't fly.

Everything is a compromise, from an MEL, to an OEB, the aircraft design and capability to the very system we work in.

Such is life.

[morno]

Exactly GG. Affordable safety unfortunately is the way it goes these days. If they want to do everything the same as the old days, that's fine, but that means charging what they did in the old days as well, and the travelling public these days finds the cheapest fare.

Time to get with the times. Weigh up the risks vs the benefits.

morno

[QFBUSBOY]

All LHR QF A380 departures are carried out by an engineer. Couldn't say about DXB, but would think it highly likely.

[LeeJoyce]

What a load of rubbish

I have reported things on a walk around now that have lead to a flight being canx on more than one occasion, one occasion was immediately after the aircraft had an acheck, and another just after engineering did their daily.

Those baggage handlers report everything to the crew and the crew determine wether or not they call engineering


I should also say after several thousand pushbacks with engineering and ramp staff, I have encountered less problems with ramp staff knowledge of the dispatch duty, I still get engineers who don't know how to connect a towbar and then ask to conduct the cross bleed start during pushback.

[The Green Goblin]

The engineer pushback has gone the way of the inflight engineer and probably the pilots one day too.

As much as I love working with engineers and enjoy their company, particularly overseas at the floors, it's life.

I'm just bloody glad that despite the massive change through the industry, anytime I need one, they are there quickly and always display the utmost professionalism and courtesy.

I'd rather qantas' worst, than the best I've seen overseas.

I disagree with the above leejoyce, rampies are rampies. We never know what we'll get and generally its too hard to set them straight. So we just consider it a threat and manage it the best we can.

I will say on behalf of most, slow down! It takes about 3 minutes to start the engines. It doesn't matter if you rush the ship out at breakneck speed. You can't dispatch until the donks are lit and the checklists are done. Slow it down and it might save the above mentioned lames a lot of swearing in the hanger one day replacing a tailcone or a sharklet. If you time it so you're saying set brakes as the flaps are coming down it'll be a job well done.

[chockchucker]

Time to get with the times. Weigh up the risks vs the benefits

Exactly the "free market" driven ideology that says we should also lower the qualifying criteria for pilots.

The results of which can now be seen spread all over the French alps.

Like to see anyone try and explain " risk vs benefits" to the relatives of the victims on the German Wings murder site.

[LeadSled]

Affordable safety unfortunately is the way it goes these days.
Morno,
What is your alternative, UNaffordable safety. Dick is continually misconstrued about what affordable safety amounts to, it does NOT necessarily mean everything collapses to the lowest common denominator.
It does mean that the "safety dollar" should be spent where it will do the most good, and featherbedding in the guise of "safety", when it is no such thing, has to be eliminated, (including in CASA).
LeeJoyce,
Agree entirely, that has also been my experience, quite a few times over the years, including fan blade damage not blended out IAW MM, on all too many occasions.
It was great, in QF, with many quite exceptional engineers, but QF has to compete or go out of business.
Tootle pip!!

[cessnapete]

I was only posting of my experience flying B744s out of LHR. My airline certainly didn't use expensive LAMEs to drive pushback trucks.
They were used more effectively fixing aeroplanes!

[kris15]

I thought all dnata pushbacks at Dubai were done by a engineer on headset and a rampie driving. At least it used to be. The head engineer who used to sign off handlers to do pushes was very strict when it came to training and signing off ramp crew to push aircraft.

P.S i do know ramp staff who have reported fuel leaks and damage to aircraft prior to pushing. Before anyone goes at me i see the argument for engineers on the headset.

[PW1830]

James Reason, risks vs benefits, long as it's not you providing the data for the inquiry.

[Gas Bags]

LeeJoyce....How about if we say it is perfectly acceptable for a 200 hour pay to fly cadet pilot to be in every jetliners R/H seat because the benefits far outway the risks, and thus makes it more affordable for any given airline to operate and therefore for everyone to fly?

[framer]

I'd rather qantas' worst, than the best I've seen overseas.
GG that says way more about you than it does about any LAME from any country. If there was a competition between the worst QF LAME and the best from some other country the QF guy would miss the kick off because he would be sitting, head down, in his ute texting while the other guy started the push back. ( No disrespect to all the great QF LAMES out there, just the odd one or two take the p1ss)