ASETPA - Why is it such a challenge to obtain?

[FoolCorsePich]

Hopefully somebody who knows CAsA's (har har see what I did there?) inner workings can answer this question.

As an onlooker why does it seem to be that a number of operators are yet to be granted approval to operate ASETPA? Why does it take so long to gain an approval?

It's a bit perplexing. It's legal to fly a TBM on a charter from A to B at 500ft AGL VFR but should you want to go into cloud then woah, woah, hold up, we're going to need to cut down some rainforests and get some dinosaurs to sit in on some flights.

Eg Vortex (Caravan) and Wagga Air Centre (TBM)

Thanks!

[LeadSled]

FCP,
This is Australia, you know, the air is different, hence the unique rules.

After all, if CASA didn't take a long time, they would not be able to "justify" their increasingly humongous charges.

At least be thankful that the new MOS for Part 61 exempts you from having to demonstrate and instrument approach and missed approach after an engine failure, quite a concession from CASA, after all this time.

Tootle pip!!

[aussie027]

As a follow on to leadsleds comment, remember CASA'S motto--

"We're not happy until you're not happy, and broke to boot!!":E

[601]

and missed approach after an engine failure,
Am I missing something, but how do you carryout a missed approach following engine failure in a single-engine aeroplane?

[drunk_pilot]

Am I missing something, but how do you carryout a missed approach following engine failure in a single-engine aeroplane?

You are missing something... A sarcasm detector!

[OCTA]

Actually its not that hard.

For the most post it can be obtained within 6 to 9 months if the operator has the correct staff, manuals and attitude.

ASETPA is looked at in a similar way to RPT. You must have a CAR 217, your aircraft must be class A maintained and your organisation must be suitable to monitor all of the above. If you treat it just like an extension of charter you end up taking three or more years.... just ask an operator in the Kimberely.

I have been involved in two ASETPA set ups that have been processed in well under 12 months.

OCTA

[FoolCorsePich]

Thanks Leady.

the correct staff, manuals and attitude.

If you have these things sorted then why does it take 6 to 9 months?

If you treat it just like an extension of charter you end up taking three or more years

Therein lies the problem. Why cannot it be so?

[Mach E Avelli]

6 to 9 months? No wonder this country is so f**kd.
Not too long ago it would have been possible to set up a high capacity jet airline from scratch in that time. Even here, in Oz. Seen it done.
If a basic infrastructure and competent staff already exists, there is no excuse for not processing something so simple in 6 weeks. It is just a single engine aeroplane with a more reliable engine, or is it something akin to the space shuttle?

[tail wheel]

I have been involved in two ASETPA set ups that have been processed in well under 12 months.

Unbelievable bureaucratic procrastination for something so relatively simple! In the 1980s I obtained an AOC authorising charter in turbine pressurised aircraft in seventeen days and LCRPT in approximately forty five days.

[OCTA]

Don't shoot the messenger! Yes it shouldn't take that long I agree BUT if you can get anything done by CASA quickly let me know how! My point was if the company is organized and prepaired it does not take 3 years as some people have quoted me.

[Lumps]

Can anyone point me at the info that precludes the Piper Meridian from being ASETPA/PSEA? I had a look through the Type Certificate but couldn't make head or tail of it, even looking at the C208 TC can't see any direct reference to the aircraft being ASETPA, but we know that CASA has approved it...

[tail wheel]

I think there was an ASETPA requirement the aircraft turbine engine had a demonstrated failure rate of less than 1 in 100,000 hours? I seem to recall from many years ago and the early days of ASETPA that the PT6A-114 engine in the C208 (being of the same class as the -27 and -34) demonstrated that reliability rate, whilst the -41/-42 class of engines in the Piper PA46-500TP had not? I was told that by either CASA or P&W Brisbane?

Looking at the PA46-500 specs and performance (https://www.globalair.com/aircraft-for-sale/specifications?specid=919), it appears to be more a rich man's toy, rather than a commercial aircraft? The payload at max range appears to be one anorexic pilot plus his handbag? Why bother with Class A maintenance and ASETPA approval?

[Ascend Charlie]

Back in the mid-90s we decided to challenge CA$A by submitting a proposal for single-engined helicopter RPT from Parramatta Heliport to KSA. Hats hit the roof, with their staff falling off chairs, a mixture of astonishment and laughter.

The biggest hurdle was getting the Maintenance Control Manual approved - even Bell did not publish anything like an MEL for such a simple aircraft, they said "Make something up."

The original draft of the MCM, off my trusty 286 computer, went from 12 pages to a fourth edition of about 120 pages by the time it got through. And that was only because we paid the CA$A inspector to write it, so he could then approve it. There were multiple other hurdles thrown in our way, but finally we got the AOC after about 1 1/2 years.

CA$A moves in strange ways.

[evilducky]

CASA's approval for an aircraft to conduct PSEA (the new ASETPA) is listed in the Type Acceptance Certificate.

https://www.casa.gov.au/search-centre/type-acceptance-certificates

C208 certificates note approval for PSEA. PA46 doesn't. You'd be first of type trying to get it approved, which combined with the aforementioned abysmal performance as a commercial machine probably alludes to why someone else hasn't already done it, if it's even possible.

[Clare Prop]

You are missing something... A sarcasm detector!
That reminds me of when a local airfield tried to charge a touch and go fee for gliders.

What is ASETPA?

[tail wheel]

Clare. Approved Single-Engine Turbine Powered Aeroplanes, apparently now called Prescribed Single-Engine Aeroplane.

Single engine aircraft permitted to operate passenger IFR and RPT, subject to operator approval by CASA. Includes the Cessna 208 and Pilatus PC12.

Not sure why the question is being asked on the Piper Meridian, as it is a five seat turbine aircraft which does not have "commercial" payload/range capability. A pressurised Navaho with a single PT6 turbine.

[On eyre]

Less room than a Navajo also.

[Lumps]

whilst the -41/-42 class of engines in the Piper PA46-500TP had not?

Ok interesting.

​​​​​​​which combined with the aforementioned abysmal performance as a commercial machine probably alludes to why someone else hasn't already done it, if it's even possible.

yeah totally agree, it's a rich man's toy for sure - can hardly lift anything. However, there are slightly less rich men that do not own an aircraft, but would pay happily to be flown from A to B in turbine aircraft at less expense than taking a King Air, hence the question. Not asking because we are choosing between PSEA aircraft for a purely commercial purpose, there's no way you'd get a PA-46 with that reasoning.

[Horatio Leafblower]

PSEA requires crashworthy seats and redundant systems that the PA46 doesn't have.

[Global Aviator]

How does the TBM stack up for the ASETPA?

Yes still small but fast and a pretty good range.

[Clare Prop]

This must win the prize for most acronyms in a single thread

[Global Aviator]

Now I wonder if the C209T has ASETPA sorry PSEA, if that what’s CASA calls it.

However I think I’m FIGJAM bringing this one up!

https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/222800-cessna-209-poh-hire.html?highlight=C209

[Lead Balloon]

The C209TCS is retrofitted with the crashworthy seats. It has received PSEA from CASA.

[Checkboard]

The USA allows piston single engine IFR charter - like a Cirrus. Needs dual electric gens, 50 hour oil checks and an engine monitor with dowloadable content (from memory).

[evilducky]

How does the TBM stack up for the ASETPA?

Yes still small but fast and a pretty good range.

https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft-type-acceptance-certificates/daher-aerospace-1

TBM gets a thumbs up for PSEA.