And so where is the CAD?

[Scoreboard]

So as the tragic story of Germanwings unfolds we see that a disturbing picture unfolding of a sick pilot hiding what ever illness under duress with his low time, and considering what we already can assume a crap roster with crap renumeration(lufthansa strike in the background anyone?) fearing maybe the loss of his career?

Got to be asking the question of all regulators worldwide that they have become beholden to the Operators or they still meant to be serving the public interest?

Case in point with our company and its position on sickness monitoring and letters to said pilots, expressing their concern for our "wellbeing"? How long will the CAD abide by whatever everyone knows its just another form of intimidation in the current climate of health and mental state of pilots?

Granted some of the current sickness is done to hurt the company by a few pissed off individuals....but the majority of pilots here know that their PRA(personal roster adjustments) are used for their mental wellbeing of being with their families and recovering from exhaustive rostering.


So again in the light of this current tragedy where is the leadership from the CAD?

[oriental flyer]

My concern is, knowing that the patient was a pilot why didn't the physiatrist treating him notify the authorities of his condition .I understand privacy requirements but the greater good trumps an individual's right to privacy and there are 150 people no longer with us because of it

[CCA]

Medical insurance doesn't cover mental illness, so it will always remain private and hidden.

[RHEINHARD]

Frankly the last thing we need is a bunch of beaurocratic muppets like the cad sticking their oar in. There is only so much you can legislate for. A train driver could arguably cause as much damage ( save the AWS sticking the brakes on and that can still be overridden ) and the arse in charge of the cruise liner gave it a damn good try.
Every section of society suffers from depression and psychosomatic illnesses and pilots are not exempt. It has probably been ever thus. You just have to trust in the non invasive judgement of the avmed doctors ( who hopefully know their subject [and subjects] and can make a reasoned judgement on the day of the medical. And the support of your peers to suggest that you step down for a bit ( without stigmatising the individual). Relying on the individual themselves to 'fess up is asinine at best. The few that have done so have been treated like pariahs in our profession. How many individuals have you sat next to who probably should not have been at work that day ? Be it wife trouble, pregnant girlfriend trouble (possibly at the same time ), kid problems, housing problems, bad financial deals, to say nothing of the stresses and strains that our profession and our employers place on us. Are you going to catch every bad apple ? Certainly not ; the alternative is persistent invasive psychological testing which is hardly expedient and whose results are moot at best.
As regards the door. A knee jerk reaction to an FAA mandated requirement which airlines stumbled over themselves to implement. Adopt the El AL approach; move the door further aft so toilet and galley access is possible without leaving any one individual with sole access. You might lose the odd bog on some of the smaller aircraft. Tough. Small price to pay.

[Arfur Dent]

Stand by for Sam Ting W and his cronies with their list of excuses from 'Management'.

[Freehills]

SOMEONE MUST DO SOMETHING NOW!!! Has rarely been a recipe for success.

[Scoreboard]

Rheinhard all valid points but it wasnt asking for legislastion knee jerk reactions but actual care of the travelling public by the regulators stepping forward and stopping intimidation of aircrew.

That stress is something that can be removed without legislation but enforcing operators to care for the well being of their aircrew without paying lip service which CX currently does.

I mean do you think its now valid that CX is pushing thru its 3 crew against the aircrews valid concerns of fatigue? Tha puts pressure on pilots. Letters put pilots under stress. There is enough problems in ones life without the employers burdening thru the workplace.

Rumor is running around that the airbus fleet aircrew on average now is off sick for 28 days a calendar year. Makes me beg the question how much money did the company save by not givinga decent pay rise and then scrapping the Roster agreement?

[RHEINHARD]

How would a payrise affect fatigue ? The only difference is that if you throw enough money at it then that just encourages avarice and greed and guys can't help themselves and burn themselves out in the process. Witness the fact that we have some guys on 100+ hrs pcm and record amounts of OT, whilst others do 45. Not due to bloody mindedness. Just ineptitude.
3 man crew. Sadly standard with our competitors and they'd have to give the extra days off down route; so I doubt they'll use it that much. And as to sickness, can't comment as the stats are apocryphal. I'm far from being an apologist for the company; they've always cut fast and loose with crew numbers and got away with it. So apparently they do need to employ more crew.
As to the rostering agreement, all they have done is use their side of an atrociously worded open ended agreement to give notice to revert to the CAP / CAD FTL's, as mandated by the govt, enacted in to the ANO and the law. Again like our competitors. Very little we can do about it, although the union are trying. I very much doubt we'll succeed.
I accept fatigue is a problem. It's Industry wide sadly. And very little will change. Pastoral care has never figured very highly in our profession. Profit and loss does. It doesn't appear that fatigue is the cause in this particular smoking hole although, again, it's all apocryphal as all we are going on is hearsay and the fact that prosecutors have chosen to leak transcripts and other information. Against all the long standing protocols that have evolved over the years in these sort of investigations.
My point is government legislatures can only do so much within a very broad framework. The same is true of companies, which are driven by ever narrowing margins, more rapacious bean counters, and ever more demanding shareholders. We could all hope for 16 days off a month, no night flights, and 45 hours a month. Thats not the profession we're in unless you find your dream job in the Windies, and you get paid accordingly.
It's up to us, and our professional organisations to look out for the mental health of each other. And the last organisation that will come to our aid, or make any sort of pronouncement on the matter is the CAD, nor any other govt regulator for that matter... the EU have just gazetted regs not so long ago ( presumably with a fair amount of Employer lobbying ) that increased pilot hours, ffs.

[Trevor the lover]

Case in point with our company and its position on sickness monitoring .........

And which is your company Scoreboard? Or is your answer simply "well Cathay of course, what, are there other airlines in HK??!!"

[raven11]

It is high time that we as a profession became self regulating....like any other professional body. We as commercial pilots should set the professional operating and qualification standards. Not a government clerk in the CAD, a retired navigator in the CAA, or a affirmative action employee in the FAA.

Definition of a professional association: "A group of people in a learned occupation who are entrusted with maintaining control or oversight of the legitimate practice of the occupation."

Doctors, lawyers, noteries, accountants, professional engineers, etc, are thus legally mandated to govern themselves...and the government beuracrats are removed.

Sadly, government beuracrats are, more often than not, under qualified to carry out objective oversight. Moreover, they are beholden to forces and influences that, common sence would dictate, should disqualify them from carrying out any oversight of the commercial piloting profession.

Controlled rest, where one pilot is allowed to sleep in the cockpit, would only ever be conceived in such an environment. Same for multi crew licensing, where ever decreasing flying experience is allowed to qualify one for a license. To say nothing of ridiculous and debilitating rostering practices.

Accident statistics will eventually force this change....for the better.

[Captain Dart]

'Depilating' rostering practices?

That would only happen in Brazil, wouldn't it?

[RHEINHARD]

Yes very constructive addition to the conversation. Take the piss, why don't you. ?

[Adam Nams]

"A group of people in a learned occupation who are entrusted with maintaining control or oversight of the legitimate practice of the occupation."


Just a thought, but have you tried...

GAPAN
The Company was established as a Guild in 1929 in order to ensure that pilots and navigators of the (then) fledgling aviation industry were accepted and regarded as professionals. From the beginning, the Guild was modelled on the lines of the Livery Companies of the City of London, which were originally established to protect the interests and standards of those involved in their respective trades or professions.


GAPAN - Hong Kong
The Technical Committee plays an active part in such issues as future flight time limitations, windshear detection, multi-crew licences and a host of other factors which affect aviation in the HK Region.

[N1 Vibes]

And so where is the CAD?

They're in that building next to KA house....

I'll get my own coat.

[Shep69]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcYppAs6ZdI

You've been a great crowd, be sure and tip your waitress !

[Yonosoy Marinero]

where is the leadership from the CAD?

I can't believe you used these two words in the same sentence.

[TOIL]

Their leader is being cooked by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) of Legislative Council. :D:D:D:D:D:D

[EARLY-GO]

And so where is the CAD?

I have been asking the same question since his selfish toilet was being impounded.

[Nut.Nut]

Their pension is still safe right?
We need to add fuel to fire.

[LapSap]

Please don't expect CAD to lift one finger to address fatigue or mental issues.
Take a look at the way they treat their own staff!
Controllers are collectively owed upwards of 25,000 hours of unpaid overtime, with virtually no chance of CAD paying it back before they retire.
Likewise, most have accrued close to the maximum limit of carryover of their annual leave-a bizarre 180 days for most of the middle ranking ones. And with the rumour of cancellation of all vacation leave so that training can go ahead plus the expectation that staff will work on at least 2 of their days off a month, one wonders just how they are going to pull the wool over the THB and cSBs eyes on that one.
The kids are being driven into the ground and will be burnt out within 10 years. Then what CAD??

So don't expect any help from them.

[LapSap]

Any chance you could stay on topic?


If you want to keep bashing the new ATM system, there's 2 other threads already running.

[Alex7372]

Just overheard in a bus, very sad news: one First Officer passed away this morning, during approach in Hong Kong.
It is time for CAD to do something!!
Wake up corxxpt bastards!!

[A-GPS]

Please don't expect CAD to lift one finger to address fatigue or mental issues.

Your controller has mental problem? :confused::confused:

[TOIL]

This organisation is following suite of Captain Mike Davis, RIP both.

[EARLY-GO]

Staffing proposal to strengthen senior management in Civil Aviation Department
(1:00 pm – 1:15 pm)

LC Paper No. CB(4)483/15-16(08)

- Administration's paper on staffing proposal to strengthen senior management of the Civil Aviation Department

http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr15-16/english/panels/edev/papers/edev20160126cb4-483-8-e.pdf

LC Paper No. CB(4)483/15-16(09)

- Paper on staffing proposal to strengthen senior management in Civil Aviation Department prepared by the Legislative Council Secretariat (background brief)

http://www.legco.gov.hk/yr15-16/english/panels/edev/papers/edev20160126cb4-483-9-e.pdf

[Yonosoy Marinero]

Ah, yes. More managers.
This will solve everything.

[Beholder]

We don't call them managers, we use the following terminologies:

Administration Officer
Chief Executive Officer
Senior Executive Officers

[goathead]

Silly question time
So if the HKCAD is as bad as we all think/know who is in charge of policing them ? Is there any oversight by ICAO?

[john_null]

What??
oversight by ICAO?? Haa, Haa, Haa......I am going to have heart attack by this laugh. They police themselves by their catastrophic engineers and ITMU. Please don't use the word "police" next time, it is just too entertaining that I can't hold my bowel.

[Hopeless CAD]

Staffing proposal to strengthen senior management in Civil Aviation Department

'Administration's paper on staffing proposal to strengthen senior management of the Civil Aviation Department' is approved in today's Panel on Economic Development LEGCO.

Details can be found in the following weblink:
LegCo Webcasting System (http://webcast.legco.gov.hk/public/en-us/SearchResult?MeetingID=M16010019)

[ColonelAngus]

Aviation officials slammed over sleepy pilots (http://www.ejinsight.com/20160218-aviation-officials-slammed-over-sleepy-pilots/)

Feb 18, 2016 9:59am
Aviation officials slammed over sleepy pilots
Hong Kong aviation authorities are under fire over lax standards after an incident last year in which a Cathay Pacific cargo pilot reportedly was asleep while the plane was coming in to land.

Labor Party lawmaker Lee Cheuk-yan is accusing the Civil Aviation Department (CAD) of not doing enough to address pilot fatigue from overwork, Apple Daily reports.

Lee wants transport chief Anthony Cheung to explain how the captain on a Cathay Pacific freighter reportedly had to be woken by his co-pilot to remind him they were about to land.

The incident, which Lee said is widely known in the airline industry, happened over Alaska in July last year.

The plane landed safely.

Media reports said the captain “appeared to be dozing off” when the aircraft was about to land in Anchorage.

In a written reply to the Legislative Council, Cheung said Cathay Pacific and CAD “found no evidence to support the allegation that both pilots had fallen asleep in any phase of the flight”.

Cheung said CAD regulations cap pilots’ standby and actual flight times at 23 hours after a 2010 review.

He said CAD is studying whether the cap should be changed.

Lee criticized the 23-hour rule as a form of neglect, saying 17 hours of wakefulness already has the effect of 0.05 per cent blood alcohol content.

He said CAD should change the rule immediately to ensure passenger safety.

Cathay Pacific had nearly 1,100 reports regarding cabin crew fatigue in 2014 alone, up 38 percent from a year earlier, Lee said.

The Transport and Housing Bureau said the risk was not as high as indicated since only 29 of those reports needed to be filed with CAD under mandatory reporting rules.

A Cathay Pacific captain said fatigue is a serious issue that remains unresolved while pilots continue to struggle with inadequate rest.

– Contact us at [email protected]

TL/AC/RA